Public Defenseless
Anyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
Like so many of you, Hunter is not an attorney, simply tired of a news cycle and talking heads that offer no real solutions to the ever-growing list of problems we face. Hunter hopes that with this information, you will share his belief that ordinary people still can make a difference.
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371 | The Cruelty Kids Face at the Intersection of Criminal and Immigration Law w/Claire Valentin and Hayley Upshaw
Today, Hunter was joined Claire Valentin and Hayley Upshaw to discuss how the intersection of criminal and immigration law impacts kids. So far on the show, Hunter and various guests have explored the “Crimmigration” intersection as it pertains to adults. Now, Hunter, Hayley, and Claire unpack the ways this already cruel system is especially cruel for kid.
Guest
Hayley Upshaw, Deputy Public Defender, San Francisco Public Defender Officer
Claire Valentin, Managing Director of Innovation and Advocacy, Children’s Law Center of Massachusetts
Resources:
US Citizen Picked Up By ICE
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/20/us-citizen-jose-hermosillo-border-patrol
Contact Claire
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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370 | How Public Defenders Can Make a Difference in Immigration Defense w/Ali Saidi
Today, Hunter was joined by Ali Saidi, Deputy Public Defender in Contra Costa County, California. On this episode, Hunter and Ali discuss how Public Defenders can have a larger impact in immigration defense by bringing the services to the communities who need them the most.
Guest
Ali Saidi, Deputy Public Defender, Contra Costa County, California
Resources:
Contra Costa County Public Defender
https://www.cocopublicdefenders.org/
https://www.facebook.com/ContraCostaPublicDefender/
https://www.instagram.com/cocopublicdefenders/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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369 | Why California Has and Needs its Immigration Sanctuary Laws w/Angela Chan
Today, Hunter was joined once again by Angla Chan of the San Francisco Public Defender Officer. This time, the two say down to discuss the history of sanctuary laws in California, why they are so important, and reflect on the reasons why people leave their home countries in the first place.
Guest
Angela Chan, Chief of Confront and Advocate, San Francisco Public Defender's Office
Resources:
Gov. Newsom's history with ordering juvenile probation in SF to turn youth over to ICE when he was SF Mayor in 2008. His "regret" over his prior actions in 2018 when he was running for governor.
stories of Southeast Asian refugees who were incarcerated firefighters who CDCR turned over to ICE.
SF Public Defender Office
https://www.facebook.com/sfpublicdefender
https://www.instagram.com/sfpublicdefender/
https://bsky.app/profile/sfpublicdefender.sf.gov
American Interventionism
https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Method-Washingtons-Anticommunist-Crusade/dp/1541742400
Guatemala
https://www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/jacobo-arbenz-guzman-deposed/
https://hmh.org/library/research/genocide-in-guatemala-guide/
https://cja.org/what-we-do/litigation/the-guatemala-genocide-case/
Laos
https://www.history.com/articles/laos-most-bombed-country-vietnam-war
https://www.mnvietnam.org/story/the-cia-the-hmong-and-the-secret-war/index.html https://winwithoutwar.org/secret-war-forgotten-war-the-u-s-bombing-of-laos/
Cambodia
https://www.history.com/articles/nixon-war-powers-act-vietnam-war-cambodia
https://macmillan.yale.edu/gsp/us-involvement-cambodian-war-and-genocide-0
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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368 | The Fight to Abolish the Death Penalty in Delaware w/Kevin O'Connell
Today, Hunter was joined once again by the Chief Public Defender of Delaware, Kevin O’Connell. This time, the two focused on the see-saw history of death penalty abolition in the state of Delaware. It may come as a surprise to many, but Delaware has historically been one of the most prolific death penalty states in America, and today, Kevin and Hunter discuss the politics and policies that kept the death penalty alive and thriving in the state. Finally, they discuss what lessons those interested in death penalty abolition can learn from the meandering path that Delaware took to get on the door step of a Constitutional ban on the practice.
Guest
Kevin O’Connell, Chief Public Defender, Defender Services of Delaware
Resources:
More on the Death Penalty in Delaware
https://deathpenalty.org/delaware-officially-repeals-its-death-penalty/
https://www.aclu-de.org/en/death-penalty-repeal
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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367 | After a Rocky Start, What Does the Future Hold for Idaho's New State Public Defender System w/Eric Fredericksen
Today, Hunter was by the Public Defender for the state of Idaho, Eric Fredericksen. Over the past two years, Public Defense in Idaho underwent a massive overhaul. For decades, the state has operated a county-based system that functioned with serious justice by geography problems, but with pressure from ACLU lawsuits, the state needed to change. So, they finally made the decision to transition to a state wide, state funded system. The transition, however, has been anything but smooth. Eric and Hunter discuss that transition, and why Eric is optimistic about the future given the strong support from the legislature and Governor in this first budget cycle.
Guest
Eric Fredericksen, The State Public Defender, Idaho
Resources:
Idaho Public Defender Reports
Idaho Public Defense Workload Study
https://www.boisestate.edu/sps-ipi/our-research/idaho-public-defense-workload-study/
News about the Transition
https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article297887643.html
News About Death Penalty in Idaho
https://gov.idaho.gov/pressrelease/gov-littles-statement-on-death-penalty-for-pedophiles/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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366 | How Public Defenders Can Create Equitable Public Safety Policies w/Hans Menos and Rob Kenter
Today, Hunter was joined by Hans Menos and Robe Kenter of the Center for Policing Equity. They sat down to discuss the successes their organization has had in trying create a more equitable legal system and understanding of how we can create safer communities.
Guest
Hans Menos, VP Public Safety Innovations and Government Affairs, Center for Policing Equity
Rob Kenter, Senior Director of Public Safety, Center for Policing
Resources:
Center for Policing Equity
https://www.instagram.com/policingequity/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/centerforpolicingequity/
https://www.facebook.com/CenterForPolicingEquity
https://www.tiktok.com/@policingequity
https://www.threads.com/@policingequity?hl=en
https://www.youtube.com/@policingequity
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PDefenselessPod
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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365 | How San Francisco Public Defenders Used the Racial Justice Act to Combat Implicit Racial Bias in the Legal System w/Sujung Kim and Lilah Wolf
Today, Hunter was joined by two San Francisco Public Defenders, Sujung Kim and Lilah Wolf, to discuss their recent Racial Justice Act Victory. This California law was designed in part to give public defenders the tools to get explicit and implicit racism out of the criminal legal system. Today, we discussed how it came to be, why it needs to be in place, and how public defenders in California and around the country could be using it.
Guest
Sujung Kim, Deputy Public Defender, San Francisco, California
Lilah Wolf, Deputy Public Defender, San Francisco, California
Resources:
Contact the SF Public Defender
https://www.facebook.com/sfpublicdefender
https://www.instagram.com/sfpublicdefender/
Exhibits from the Trial
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Qd5HC8wB7HuV_xoh6fHLQwRMmybJWShD?usp=sharing
Read More About the Case
https://sfpublicdefender.org/news/2025/03/10462/
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364 | How Cops Mess Up the Investigation Child Sex Assault Cases w/Christina Sally and Chris Bertram
Today, Hunter was joined by two former police officers turned defense witness experts. Christina Sally and Chris Bertram joined the show to discuss their insights into the many ways in which police officers mess up the investigations into claims of child sexual assault cases.
Guest
Christina Sally PhD, Consultant, Defense Expert Witness, Retired Law Enforcement Officer
Chris Bertram, Retired Chief of Police, Associate Professor, Defense Expert Witness
Resources:
Email Christina
https://www.drchristinasallyphd.com/
Email Chris
https://www.tbertramgroup.com/team.php
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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363 | Why is the LA County DA Bringing Back Death Penalty Prosecutions? w/Ricardo Garcia
Today, Hunter was joined once again by Los Angeles County Chief Public Defender Ricardo Garcia. This time, they discuss how the new LA County DA is trying to bring back the death penalty and the impact of Prop 36 and the Los Angeles Wildfires on Public Defenders and their clients.
Guest
Ricardo Garcia, The Public Defender of Los Angeles County, California
Resources:
Contact the LA County Public Defender
https://www.instagram.com/lapubdef/
https://www.facebook.com/LACOUNTYPD/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/lapubdef
LA DA Brings Back Death Penalty
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/26/los-angeles-da-death-penalty
Prop 36
https://lao.ca.gov/handouts/crimjust/2025/Fiscal-Impacts-of-Proposition-36-022525.pdf
https://www.ppic.org/blog/early-implementation-of-prop-36-varies-widely-across-counties/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PDefenselessPod
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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362 | Is Illinois Taking the First Step to Establish State Wide Public Defense? w/Elisabeth Pollock and Stephanie Kollmann
Today, Hunter was joined once again Elisabeth Pollock and for the first time Stephanie Kollmann. On today’s episode, the three discuss the Fair Act in Illinois. This pending piece of legislation is set to be the first step for the state of Illinois to provide statewide support to Public Defense. Will it happen? Why is it necessary? All that and more on today’s episode.
Guest
Elisabeth Pollock, Chief Public Defender, Champagne County, Illinois
Stephanie Kollmann, Policy Director, Children Family Justice Center, Northwestern University School of Law
Resources:
Sixth Amendment Center Illinois
https://6ac.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/6AC_illinois_report_2021.pdf
Task Force Report
Fair Act
https://ilpublicdefenderstats.org/fairact/
Contact Stephanie
https://www.law.northwestern.edu/legalclinic/cfjc/aboutus/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PDefenselessPod
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361 | How a New Bail Law and Immigration Enforcement is Impacting Public Defense in Charleston, South Carolina w/Cameron Blazer
Today, Hunter was joined once again by the Chief Public Defender for South Carolina’s 9th Circuit, Cameron Blazer. This time, we discuss workload issues in her Circuit and how a new bail laws and immigration enforcement are making matters worse.
Guest
Cameron Blazer, Circuit Public Defender, 9th Circuit, Charleston and Berkley, South Carolina
Resources:
Email Cameron Here
CBlazer@charlestoncounty.org
SCCID
Bond Laws
https://www.scstatehouse.gov/sess125_2023-2024/bills/3532.htm
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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360 | Is There a Better Way to Teach Criminal Law Part II w/Andrew Crespo
Today, Hunter was joined by Professor Andrew Crespo to continue the conversation about how we can improve how criminal law is taught. On this episode, we dive into the new criminal law text book that Andrew and his co-author, John Rappaport, recently published to learn a better way to teach criminal law.
Guest
Andrew Crespo, Professor of Law, Morris Wasserstein Public Interest Professor of Law Executive Faculty Director, Institute to End Mass Incarceration, Harvard University
Resources:
Andrew’s Faculty Page
https://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/andrew-m-crespo/
Andrew and John’s Book
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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359 | Is There a Better Way to Teach Criminal Law? Part I w/Alice Ristroph
Today, Hunter was joined by Professor Alice Ristroph for the first of a two-part focus on how and why we teach Criminal Law the way we do. On today’s episode, Hunter and Alice explore the historical roots of criminal law teaching, critique it, and discuss ways in which we can improve how criminal law is taught to law students.
Guest
Alice Ristroph, Professor of Law, Brooklyn Law School
Resources:
Contact Alice Here
https://www.brooklaw.edu/contact-us/ristroph-alice/writings/
Read Alice’s Law Review Article
https://brooklynworks.brooklaw.edu/faculty/1257/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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358 | Why has the San Francisco Public Defender Stopped Taking New Cases One Day a Week? w/Mano Raju
Today, Hunter was joined once again by Mano Raju, the Elected Chief Public Defender in San Francisco. In the past couple of weeks, Mano made the difficult decision to stop accepting new case assignments one day a week. Thanks to the tough on crime policies of DA Brooke Jenkins and Prop 36, the workloads for San Francisco Public Defenders have reach unsustainable numbers. How did we get here, what comes next, and will this be a harbinger of things to come in California? All that and more on today’s episode.
Guest
Mano Raju, Chief Public Defender, San Francisco, California
Resources:
Coverage of the Office
https://sfstandard.com/2025/05/09/public-defender-fentanyl-san-francisco-lurie/
https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-public-defender-caseload-20329216.php
Contact Mano or the Office
https://www.facebook.com/sfpublicdefender
https://www.instagram.com/sfpublicdefender/
https://bsky.app/profile/manorajupd.bsky.social
https://x.com/manorajupd?lang=en
Pictures of Beans
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1feblbsr1Nc4m-LrM4exCO3PyCM4v4ke7?usp=drive_link
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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357 | Why are Minnesota Public Defenders Trying to Form an Independent Union? w/Bob Kolstad, Maggie Bott, Olivia Henstein
Today, Hunter was joined by Bob Kolstad, Maggie Bott, and Olivia Henstein to discuss why they are pushing Minnesota Public Defenders to create a new, independent union. In the past few years, the current union, organize under Teamsters, was able to secure massive salary raises for Public Defenders around the state. However, that strike threat was built without much help or support from the leadership of the Teamster’s union. As a result, rank and file members, public defenders and the staff of the offices, are considering starting their own public defender lead union.
Guest
Bob Kolstad, Public Defender, Hennepin County, Minnesota
Maggie Bott, Public Defender, Hennepin County, Minnesota
Olivia Henstein, Paralegal, Hennepin County, Minnesota
Resources:
Check out UDAM Here
https://uniteddefenseadvocatesminnesota.org/
Email Bob
Email Maggie
Email Olivia
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PDefenselessPod
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356 | How the Chief Public Defender of Louisiana is Retaliating Against Public Defenders who Oppose his Power Grab w/Jim Boren
Today, Hunter was joined by longtime Louisiana Criminal Defense Lawyer and President of the Louisiana Association of Criminal Defense Lawyer, Jim Boren. Over the past year, Hunter has discussed the erosion of public defender independence since Remy Starns became the chief public defender of the state. Now, Remy Starns is slated to fire five chief public defenders from around the state who opposed some of the policies that consolidated power into his hands. Today’s episode is all about how this has happened and what the criminal defense bat should do in response.
Guest
Jim Boren, President, Louisiana Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
Resources:
Email Jim
Coverage of the Firings
https://www.richlandtoday.com/article/459,public-defenders-defend-themselves-against-firings
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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355 | How Missouri Public Defenders are Leading the Nation In Statewide Holistic Defender Services w/Missouri Public Defenders
Today, Hunter was joined by a whole host of characters from the Missouri Public Defender System. When Hunter last looked into Missouri Public Defense, he spoke with Annie Legomsky to discuss the remarkable project of implementing Holistic Defense statewide. As one of the only statewide systems with holistic defense, Missouri stands as a great example of how finding creative sources of funding can allow Public Defenders to demonstrate to legislators the potential Public Defense has to improve the community once it has the funding to work outside of the four corners of the court room.
Guest
Mary Fox, Chief Public Defender, Missouri
Kellie Duckering, District Defender, Carthage, Missouri
Camille Iorio, Disposition Specialist, Child Defense Team, St. Louis, Missouri
Ben Greene, Mitigation Specialist, Springfield, Missouri
Mae Redmond, Client Advocate, Partners for Justice
Mikayla Kitchen, Holistic Advocate, Missouri
Resources:
Listen to My Episode w/Annie Here
Contact the Missouri Public Defender Here
https://publicdefender.mo.gov/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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354 | With so Many Good Things Happening in Massachusetts, When Will Public Defenders Finally Get They Pay Raises they Deserve? w/Anthony Benedetti
Today, Hunter was joined once again by Anthony Benedetti, Chief Counsel of the Massachusetts Committee for Public Counsel Services. This time, Hunter and Anthony dive into what can be done about the low hourly rates for CPCS’s contract counsel and how recent courage from the bench and the state house gives them hope that those pay increases are in fact possible.
Guest
Anthony Benedetti, Chief Counsel, Massachusetts Committee for Public Counsel Services
Resources:
CPCS Website
https://www.publiccounsel.net/
Listen to my first episode with Anthony Here
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3OxwnFFjrC1ruJPSDFywp5?autoplay=true
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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353 | After 18 Years in Prison, How One Man is Still Fighting to Prove his Innocence w/Ivery Dorsey
Today, Hunter was joined by Ivery Dorsey, a man who for the last 18 years was incarcerated for a homicide he did not commit. On a previous episode on the show, Hunter spoke with one of the students, Kerrie Liang, who have been fighting to prove Ivery’s innocence, but today, Ivery joins the show to tell his story. From the representation he received, the conditions of his confinement, and how he hopes to pursue his dreams of shoe design and music production, Ivery's hope for a better future is contagious.
Guest
Ivery Dorsey, Musician, Shoe Designer, and Formerly Wrongfully Incarcerated
Resources:
Find Ivery’s Work Here
https://www.instagram.com/bringiveryhome/
Read More About the Story Here
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352 | How Public Defense in Harris County Texas Evolved from a Contract System to a Holistic One w/Alex Bunin
Today, Hunter spoke with Harris County, Texas Chief Public Defender Alex Bunin. Just over a decade ago, Public Defense in Harris County looked like it did in most of the state. A group of private defense counsel contracted with the county to provide Public Defense. Unfortunately, Harris County was not spared of the many, well documented issues, with a primarily privately contracted public defense system. Then the county established the Public Defender Office, and since then, Alex and his team have gradually started taking on more cases and expanding the definition of what Public Defense is.
Guest
Alex Bunin, Chief Public Defender, Harris County, Texas
Resources:
Harris County Public Defender Website
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351 | How Flat-Fee Contracts Undermine the Right to Counsel in California w/Josh Schwartz
Today, Hunter sat with Josh Occhiogrosso-Schwartz, a Principal at the Wren Collective, to discuss their recent report on flat rate Public Defender contracts in California. Long time listeners of the show will recall that the American Bar Association discourages the use of flat rate fees because of the negative economic incentive it creates for the attorneys working under those contracts. In what will come as a surprise to no one who studies Public Defense, the Wren Collective examined the 24 counties in California who utilized flat rate contracts for their Public Defender needs, and they found a system that wholly failed to protect the right to counsel. From a lack of investigators to minimal oversight over specific attorneys, these flat rate contracts are failing the counties in California. Fortunately, there is a bill pending in the state that may see the use of these contracts come to an end.
Guest
Josh Occhiogrosso-Schwartz, Principal, The Wren Collective
Resources:
Read the Report Here:
https://www.wrencollective.org/_files/ugd/8fe8f0_71aac7e039fd4ee695ec6c8736cd1b72.pdf
Contact Josh Here
josh.occhiogrosso-schwartz@wrencollective.com
Follow the Bill (AB690) Here
https://aclucalaction.org/bill/ab-690/
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350 | The Tech Company Helping Public Defenders Track and Exploit Police Misconduct w/Julie Ciccolini
Today, Hunter spoke with Julie Ciccolini, the CEO of Techtivist. When she was working as a paralegal at the NY Legal Aid Society, Julie, like so many in a Public Defender Office, realized that there was immense amounts of data on police misconduct that was going un-used. So, Julie helped to set up a database that allowed Public Defenders to track and use this data in their cases. Realizing that this issue extended far beyond New York, Julie founded Techtivist as a way to help Public Defenders set up and utilize databases that keep track of police misconduct.
Guest
Julie Ciccolini, CEO, Techtivist
Resources:
Check out Techtivist Here
Read the Blue Wall of Silence Report Here
https://www.nacdl.org/Document/DismantlingtheBlueWallofSilenceTrackLawEnfMiscond
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349 | The ACLU Lawsuit Helping to Radically Reimagine Public Defense in Maine w/Zachary Heiden, Carol Garvan, and Eve Primus
Today, Hunter sat down with Zachary Heiden, Carol Garvan, and Professor Eve Primus to discuss the ACLU of Maine’s major victory in the fight to change Maine’s Public Defense. Since the Sixth Amendment Center’s report came out years ago, one thing was clear about Public Defense in Maine: it was in a state of crisis. Now, there finally appears to be a path out of the crisis. Thanks in part to the lawsuit filed by the ACLU of Maine, the courage of public defenders, the judiciary, and the delayed but strong action of the legislature, Maine is on the path to Public Defender Offices around the state. On this episode, we discuss how this happened, why it was needed, and what other states can and should learn from this story.
Guest
Carol Garvan, Legal Director, ACLU of Maine
Zachary Heiden, Chief Counsel, ACLU of Maine
Eve Primus, Professor of Law, University of Michigan
Resources:
Contact the ACLU of Maine Here
Read more about the decision here
6AC Report
https://6ac.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/6AC_me_report_2019.pdf
Professor Primus’s Faculty Page
https://michigan.law.umich.edu/faculty-and-scholarship/our-faculty/eve-brensike-primus
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RE-RELEASE: Secrets of the Killing State: How the Truth of Lethal Injection Could End the Death Penalty w/Corinna Lain
Today, Hunter is Re-Releasing his episode with Professor of Law Corinna Lain becuase her book, Secretes of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection, is now available! If you haven't listened already or picked up a copy of the book, now is great time to remember the hisotry of lethal injection and what that history means for the death peanlty today!
https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Killing-State-Untold-Injection/dp/1479832960
Today, Hunter spoke with Law Professor Corinna Lain to discuss her career of research around the death penalty and lethal injection. While it may seem strange to hyper focus on lethal injection, there is something to be said about understanding how and why lethal injection became the defacto method for state sanctioned murder. When lethal injection was offered to the American people, it was designed to do one simple thing: hide the reality of state sponsored murder. So long as people could look away from the violence of the state, they could place execution out of mind. In doing so, the practice could continue in relative secrecy. Today’s episode is about lifting the shroud on that secrecy to examine the way the lethal injection is just as, if not more, violent, cruel, and unusual and any other form of execution.
Guests:
Corrina Lain, SD Roberts and Sandra Moore Professor of Law, Richmond School of Law
Resources:
Can Europe end the Death Penalty? https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/02/can-europe-end-the-death-penalty-in-america/283790/
US Botched Executions
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/botched-executions
Execution of Clayton Lockett
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/13/botched-oklahoma-execution-clayton-lockett-bloody-mess
Corinna Lain Faculty Page
https://law.richmond.edu/faculty/clain/
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348 | How Prosecutors, Cops, and an ICE Agent Conspired to Kidnap a Man in the Middle of his Trial w/Murat Erkan
Today, Hunter spoke Massachusetts Criminal Defense Lawyer Murat Erkan. Recently, Murat represented Wilson Martell-Lebron in a criminal trial in Boston Municipal Court. Martell-Lebron faced two felony charges related to accusations that he lied on his driver’s license application. At its core, this case was an accusation that Martell-Lebron was an undocumented immigrant. However, Martell-Lebron never got to vindicate his innocence because the Suffolk County DA, the police involved in the case, and an ICE agent conspired to abducted Martell-Lebron in the middle of his trial. This episode is a wild documentation of a conspiracy to subvert a man’s right to trial.
Guest
Murat Erkan, Partner and Criminal Defense Lawyer, Erkan Sullivan PC, Massachusetts
Resources:
Google Drive Containing the Court Filings
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1pegoD0V5gEFXZqcsMQKOYcu9s1_AX3JV?usp=sharing
Coverage Once the Federal Court got the Contempt
https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-arrest-trial-contempt-8b35498ddd96ccf1bc3ff772e6ef5106
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347 | How Participatory Defense has and can help Minnesota Public Defenders w/Damon Drake
Today, Hunter spoke with Damon Drake, Executive Director of We Resolve Minnesota, a participatory defense organization out of the twin cities. As is the case in our discussion about participatory defense, Damon joins the show to discuss the successes and challenges of trying to get Public Defenders onboard with the participatory defense.
Guest
Damon Drake, Executive Director, We Resolve Minnesota
Resources:
Learn more about We Resolve Here
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346 | The Revival of Public Defense in Santa Cruz County California w/Heather Rogers and Caitlin Becker
Today, Hunter spoke with Heather Rogers and Caitlin Becker of the Santa Cruz County Public Defenders. In 2020, the Sixth Amendment Center put together a report detailing the severe issues with how Santa Cruz County provided Public Defense. At the time, a law firm was working a flat rate fee contract to provide public defender services in the county. As is expected, that system was deeply flawed and couldn’t meet the demands of the Sixth Amendment. Fast forward five years, Heather, Caitlin, and the team at the Santa Cruz County Public Defender has transformed the office into a comprehensive holistic defender program. How did that happen? What are the benefits of this model? All those questions and more on today’s episode!
Guest
Heather Rogers, The Public Defender, Santa Cruz County, California
Caitlin Becker, Director of Holistic Defense, Santa Cruz County, California
Resources:
Read the 6AC Report Here
https://6ac.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/6AC_ca_santacruzcountyreport_2020.pdf
Contact Santa Cruz County Public Defenders Here
https://www.santacruzdefenders.us/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-rogers-3525b4242/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtvUi9TWRyNIOvEwgHN87KA
https://www.facebook.com/CruzDefenders#
https://www.instagram.com/cruzdefender/
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Guest
Heather Rogers, The Public Defender, Santa Cruz County, California
Caitlin Becker, Director of Holistic Defense, Santa Cruz County, California
Resources:
Read the 6AC Report Here
https://6ac.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/6AC_ca_santacruzcountyreport_2020.pdf
Contact Santa Cruz County Public Defenders Here
https://www.santacruzdefenders.us/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-rogers-3525b4242/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtvUi9TWRyNIOvEwgHN87KA
https://www.facebook.com/CruzDefenders#
https://www.instagram.com/cruzdefender/
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345 | Will Governor Jeff Landry's Push to Execute More People get an Innocent Man Killed? w/Piper French
Today, Hunter spoke with journalist Piper French about the wrongful conviction of Jimmie “Chris” Duncan. In 1998, Duncan was convicted of murdering his girlfriend’s 23-month-old daughter. Originally, Duncan was charged with negligent homicide as it appeared his story, that he stepped away for a few minutes while the child took a bath and then she fell and drowned, was accurate. However, the notorious peddler of the junk science bite mark “evidence,” Dr. Michael West, conducted a dubious autopsy where he pressed a mould of Duncan’s teeth into the body of the girl. With this dubious autopsy and the help of a jail house snitch, the state convicted Duncan of capital murder. Since then, Duncan has been fighting to prove his innocence, but with Governor Jeff Landry’s drive to increase the number of executions in the Louisiana, Duncan might never get the chance.
Guest
Piper French, Part Time Staff Writer at Bolt Magazine, Freelance Journalist
Resources:
Read the Article Here
https://boltsmag.org/the-human-cost-of-jeff-landrys-drive-to-resume-executions/
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2025/03/louisiana-execution-bolts-chris-duncan-jeff-landry-death-row-capital-punishment/
Read more by Piper Here
Contact Piper
https://bsky.app/profile/psfrench.bsky.social
Read more About Duncan’s Case Here
https://innocenceproject.org/petitions/stop-the-execution-of-an-innocent-man-jimmie-chris-duncan/
https://www.propublica.org/article/louisiana-jimmie-duncan-bite-mark-analysis-death-row-junk-science
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344 | When Public Defenders Support Community Organizing, Community will Organize to Support Public Defense w/Heather Lewis
Today, Hunter sat down with Heather Lewis a participatory defense organizer and the Executive Director of the Reuniting Family Bail Fund. Unlike many places where participatory defense hubs have been set up, Montgomery County Public Defenders welcomed participatory defense with open arms. Today, we will see the benefit of having an activated community when policy makers retaliate against public defenders.
Guest
Heather Lewis, Reuniting Family Bail Fund, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania
Resources:
Reuniting Family Bail Fund Websites and Socials
https://www.youtube.com/@reunitingfamilybailfund
https://www.instagram.com/familybailfund/
https://www.facebook.com/reunitingfamilybailfund
Coverage of Retaliation Against Montgomery County Public Defenders
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343 | How the Neglect and Indifference of the Jefferson County Jail Killed a 76 Year Old Man Suffering from Parkinson's and Dementia w/Darold Killmer and Maddie Lips
Today, Hunter sat down with Civil Rights lawyers Darold Killmer and Maddie Lips to discuss a tragic case. James Purdy, a 76 year old man with dementia and Parkinson’s, was arrested after a women alleged he attempted to kidnap her. When he was arrested, Purdy incredibly frail condition was obvious and his family insisted he be kept on his essential medication. Unfortunately, the Jefferson Count Jail staff did not comply with this request. Over his multi-week pretrial incarceration, Purdy was recorded falling around 100 times, and ultimately, these falls left him with injuries that would lead to his death.
Guest
Darold Killmer, Partner, Killmer Lane Civil Rights Litigation, Denver, CO
Maddie Lips, Associate, Killmer Lane Civil Rights Litigation, Denver, CO
Resources:
Contact Killmer Lane
Contact Darold and Maddie
Read More About James Purdy’s Case
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342 | What was Revealed about the Death Penalty When a Man on Death Row Volunteered to be Executed? w/Gianna Toboni
Today, Hunter spoke with Emmy Award winning documentarian and investigative journalist, Gianna Toboni to discuss her new book The Volunteer: The Failure of the Death Penalty and One Inmate’s Quest to Die with Dignity. In this book, Gianna tells the story of Scott Dozier. He was on death row in Nevada for two separate homicide convictions, but despite him volunteering to be executed, forces both inside and outside of the prison prevented the state from executing him. Ultimately, Dozier took his own life after a few weeks on a mental health, solitary confinement hold. How did this all happen and what can we learn about the death penalty in America? All those questions and more in today’s episode.
Guest
Gianna Toboni, Documentarian, Investigative Journalist, Author of The Volunteer
Resources:
Pick up a Copy of the Book Here
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-volunteer-gianna-toboni/1145681921
Follow Gianna On Socials
https://bsky.app/profile/giannatoboni.bsky.social
https://www.instagram.com/giannatoboni/?hl=en
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gianna-toboni-970174272/
https://x.com/GiannaToboni?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Gianna’s Work at Vice (Including Interview’s with Dozier)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o6ig6LRdAL5W_w7w1k_UeQ5
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341 | Why did a Judge Stop a Defense Lawyer from Showing the Jury the Complaining Witness's Habit of Fabricating Evidence w/Blake Weiner
Today, Hunter spoke with Criminal Defense Lawyer Blake Weiner about a wrongful conviction case he has been working on. Blake’s client, Marcus Cooper was charged with rape and strangulation in two separate counties in Virginia. At the first trial, evidence came to light that the complaining witness was lying about pictures she provided to the Commonwealth that she claimed proved her accusations. This trial resulted in a mistrial, and ultimately the charges were dismissed. At the second trial, which featured the same witness and the same charges, the complaining witness once again provided fabricated evidence to try and convict Mr. Cooper. However, the judge in this case determined that Blake could not bring up these repeated instances of evidence fabrication, and as a result, Mr. Cooper was convicted. Blake helps us understand how a judge could stop a defense lawyer from challenging the credibility of a person who has demonstrated a willingness to lie about his client.
Guest
Blake Weiner, Criminal Defense Lawyer, Virginia
Resources:
Contact Blake
Read the Docs from the Case Here
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uZd16LUpCFJwHVrR6eF4sPxs1D91406s?usp=sharing
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340 | The Amendment to Louisiana's Constitution that is Trying to Make it Easier to Send Kids to Angola Prison w/Kristen Rome
Today, Hunter spoke with Kristen Rome the Executive Director of the Louisiana Center for Children’s Rights. Last fall, Hunter spoke with another member of LCCR about the policies pursued by Governor Jeff Landry to make it easier for the state to criminalize young people. Sadly, today’s episode is on the same topic. Up for a vote on March 29th, Louisiana’s Amendment Three is a Constitutional Amendment that would give the legislature nearly unlimited power to get young people prosecuted in the adult legal system. Kristen joins the show to help explain what the amendment is, how it got on the ballot, and why people should vote no!
Guest
Kristen Rome, Executive Director, Louisiana Center for Children’s Rights
Resources:
Find LCCR’s Work Here
https://www.facebook.com/lakidsrights
https://www.instagram.com/LAKidsRights
Vote No On Three
Laws Targeting Mostly Black Parishes
https://apnews.com/article/juvenile-records-louisiana-e95896fcc0ca3e1a8d92409a345ad706
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339 | Did One Woman Coerce her Foster Kids into Wrongfully Accusing their Family of Sexual Abuse? w/Amy Parker
Today, Hunter spoke with former Public Defender and current Criminal Defense Lawyer Amy Parker about a shocking wrongful conviction case. Normally, Public Defenders find themselves working in opposition of Child Protective Services workers. So when a former CPS worker reached out to Amy, admit that an innocent man was incarcerated, Amy knew there was a serious injustice happening. Through her work, she was able to exonerate Mr. Ezquiel Apolo-Albino and stop his deportation, but how did he end up wrongfully convicted for molesting his children? Based on Amy’s tireless work, it appears we know the answer.
Guest
Amy Parker, Criminal Defense Lawyer and Former Public Defender, Washington
Resources:
Read the Full Motion for a New Trial Here
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kv6yaxs9vInHBj5X4cBbLzWHOZR69Ucr?usp=drive_link
National Register of Exonerees
https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=5014
More on Mr. Apolo Albino
https://www.law.uw.edu/news-events/news/2024/justice-for-the-wrongfully-convicted
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338 | How Trump is Using the Alien Enemies Act to Destroy Due Process Protections w/Nayna Gupta
Today, Hunter spoke with Nayna Gupta of the American Immigration Council. This conversation covers a recent slate of Trump Administration Immigration Policies that are a naked power grab by the President so he can detain and deport whoever he wants, whenever he wants, and however he wants without due process of law. Specifically, Nayna walks us through how the Alien Enemies Act, the designation of several cartels as Foreign Terrorist Organizations, and the new Immigration Registration requirement will work in concert to grant the President nearly limitless power to detain and deport people.
Guest
Nayna Gupta, Policy Director, American Immigration Council
Resources:
American Immigration Council Resources
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/
https://www.instagram.com/immcouncil/
https://www.facebook.com/TheAmericanImmigrationCouncil/#
ILRC Red Cards
https://www.ilrc.org/red-cards-tarjetas-rojas
Invocation of the Act
Alien Enemies Act Explained
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/alien-enemies-act-explained
https://www.justsecurity.org/109168/alien-enemies-act-litigation/
Judge Blocking the Act and Trump Ignoring the Order
http://axios.com/2025/03/14/trump-alien-enemies-act-deportations
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/16/us/constitutional-crisis.htmlQ
Foreign Terrorist Organization Designation
Registration Requirements
https://www.uscis.gov/alienregistration
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337 | How Does Silicon Valley De-Bug San Mateo Hope to Improve Public Defense and the Criminal Legal System w/Ana Ramirez Zarate and Lourdes Best
Today, Hunter spoke with Anna Ramirez Zarate and Lourdes Best of the San Mateo Chapter of Silicon Valley De-Bug. On today’s episode, we will hear about how the community views the criminal legal system, the Private Defender Program in San Mateo, and how they felt about the harmful, racist emails sent by some members of PDP.
Guest
Ana Ramirez Zarate, Community and Participatory Defense Organizer, Silicon Valley De-Bug
Lourdes Best, Community and Participatory Defense Organizer, Silicon Valley De-Bug
Resources:
SVDB Socials
https://www.youtube.com/user/DeBugTV
https://www.siliconvalleydebug.org/
https://www.instagram.com/sv_debug/?hl=en
Complaint with CRC
Reports about PDP
https://sanmateo.courts.ca.gov/system/files/private_defender_program.pdf
https://www.smcgov.org/media/2466/download?inline=
https://sanmateo.courts.ca.gov/system/files/balance_scale_of_justice.pdf
Emails About Silicon Valley De-Bug
https://x.com/svdebug/status/1838380292765327581
*** Note on the Episode****
Following my conversation with Lisa and Harpreet flat rate fees in the PDP, Lisa informed me that the Office of the State Public Defender in California released Standards for Contract Panels. They discourage any flat fee compensation. As a result, Lisa will now be working with the county to move away from the flat rate fees towards an all-hourly compensation rate.
New Standards Can be Found Here
https://www.ospd.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/CA-Standards_ContractPanelDefense.pdf
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336 | How the San Mateo Private Defender Program is Trying to Earn Back the Community's Trust w/Lisa Maguire and Harpreet Samra
Today, Hunter spoke with Lisa Maguire and Harpreet Samra of the San Mateo County Private Defender Program. Unlike the normal contract Public Defender model, the PDP operates as a managed assigned counsel system. As the Chief Defender, Lisa, manages a group of private contractors who handle the Public Defender needs of the county. This grants here significantly more oversight than in a traditional Private Defender System. Harpreet is the lead for the PDP’s Social Worker program, and she ensures attorneys connect with Social Workers in their cases. From each of their areas of expertise, Lisa and Harpreet are working to correct the issues documented with PDP over the years. While their work has the PDP moving in a positive direction, the presence of flat rate fee compensation and the fall out from a series of insulting, racist emails sent by former PDP members leave Lisa and Harpreet with an ongoing battle to earn the trust back of the community they serve.
Guest
Lisa Maguire, Chief Defender, Private Defender Program, San Mateo County, CA
Harpreet Samra, Social Worker Lead, Private Defender Program, San Mateo County, CA
Resources:
Contact Lisa and Harpreet
PDP Website
https://www.smcgov.org/private-defender-program
Past Reports on San Mateo
https://sanmateo.courts.ca.gov/system/files/private_defender_program.pdf
https://www.smcgov.org/media/2466/download?inline=
https://sanmateo.courts.ca.gov/system/files/balance_scale_of_justice.pdf
Emails About Silicon Valley De-Bug
https://x.com/svdebug/status/1838380292765327581
*** Note on the Episode****
Following my conversation with Lisa and Harpreet flat rate fees in the PDP, Lisa informed me that the Office of the State Public Defender in California released Standards for Contract Panels. They discourage any flat fee compensation. As a result, Lisa will now be working with the county to move away from the flat rate fees towards an all-hourly compensation rate.
New Standards Can be Found Here
https://www.ospd.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/CA-Standards_ContractPanelDefense.pdf
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335 | How Sec Def Austin Interfered with the 9/11 and U.S.S. Cole Case Plea Deals w/Allison Miller and Katie Carmon
Today, Hunter spoke with two defense lawyers handling the USS Cole case out of Guantanamo Bay. Allison Miller and Katie Carmon are two of the defense counsel on the al-Nashiri, and last fall, they thought that after more than two decades of pre trial confinement, the cases would finally end when they entered into a plea negotiation with the government. Unfortunately, then Secretary of Defense Loyd Austin exercised undue and unlawful command influence by terminating the agreements. Now with a new administration, what is next for the never ending cases at Guantanamo Bay?
Guest
Allison Miller, Learned Counsel for Abdul Rahim al-Nashiri
Katie Carmon, Supervising Defense Counsel for the al-Nashiri Team
Resources:
Coverage of the Plea Deals
https://www.npr.org/2025/01/09/nx-s1-5252462/guantanamo-9-11-khalid-sheikh-mohammed-plea-deal
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/30/us/politics/911-case-plea-deals.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/appeals-court-plea-agreements-911-architect-khalid-sheikh-mohammed/
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/Secreary-Austin's-Fateful-GTMO-Plea-Deals-Decision
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/28/us/politics/defense-secretary-plea-deals.html
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334 | Was a Former Colorado Public Defender Fired for Raising Concerns over his Workload? w/Travis Weiner
Today, Hunter spoke with Travis Weiner the former Colorado Public Defender suing the State Public Defender for wrongful termination. As a Colorado Public Defender, Travis reached a point where he estimated he would need more than 4,000 hours to complete the cases assigned to him. At that point, Travis believed he had an ethical obligation to withdraw from a newly assigned case. Unfortunately, the Colorado State Public Defender did not support him. Instead, they fired him. Now he is suing the state for alleged retaliation.
Guest
Travis Weiner, Former Colorado State Public Defender and Current Public Defender, Taos, New Mexico
Resources:
Articles about Travis’s Law Suit
Read Travis’s Motion, Compliant and My Complaint and Affidavit Here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oz0-_Yi6EMqoh7s6f2a7xdrW-_28L1dv?usp=sharing
I have reached out for comment from OSPD in regards to Travis and my complaints. At this time, OSPD did not respond for comment. Last year, they sent me the following comment on Travis's complaint
"On behalf of OSPD, thank you for the invitation and concern regarding public defense in Colorado. Rules governing confidentiality, attorney-client privilege, and employee privacy prevent us from discussing individual cases, particular motions, or a defender’s practice. We are committed to ensuring that our clients receive high quality representation and will continue to support the defenders who do that work."
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333 | How The American Eugenics Movement Helped Create Habitual Offender Laws w/Daniel Loehr
Today, Hunter spoke with Professor Daniel Loehr to discuss his research on the Eugenics Origin of Habitual Offender Laws. While many people hear habitual offender laws and think of the three strikes laws from the tough on crime era of the 1990’s, Daniel reveals that the history of these laws traces back to a much earlier and darker time in our nation’s history. Daniel lays out how America’s Eugenics movement wanted habitual offender laws to act as a way to stop certain populations from procreating, and what we as a society should do with these laws given their history.
Guest
Daniel Loehr, Professor of Law, City University of New York School of Law
Resources:
Contact Daniel
https://www.law.cuny.edu/faculty/directory/daniel-loehr/
Daniel Files an Amicus Brief in Colorado
Daniel’s Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5159292
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332 | The Coalition Fighting to Save New York's Discovery Laws w/Amanda Jack and Kalle Condliffe
Today, Hunter spoke with Amanda Jack and Kalle Condliffe of the New York Legal Aid Society about the fight to save Kalief’s Law. This law, passed in 2020, aimed to create much needed reforms to evidence discovery in criminal trials. Naturally, prosecutors have hated new requirements for disclosure, and they have attempted to get the laws peeled back before they even went in place. Now with the help of Governor Hochul, prosecutors are once again trying to get these laws repealed so they can return to their preferred practice, trail by ambush.
Guest
Amanda Jack, Policy Director, Criminal Defense Practice, New York Legal Aid Society
Kalle Condliffe, Supervising Attorney, New York Legal Aid Society
Resources:
Protect Kalief’s Law Coalition
https://protectkaliefslaw.com/
Email Amanda
Email Kalle
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331 | How the Far West Texas Public Defenders Uncovered a Pattern of Discovery Violations in El Paso w/James McDermott and Paul Chambers
Today, Hunter spoke with Paul Chambers and James McDermott of the Far West Texas Public Defenders Office. This time, they joined to discuss how Paul discovered and James litigated a pattern and practice of discovery violations by the El Paso District Attorney’s Office.
Guest
James McDermott, Chief Public Defender, Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
Paul Chambers, Deputy Chief Public Defender, Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
Resources:
Far West Texas Public Defender in the News
https://elpasomatters.org/2024/12/15/el-paso-district-attorney-prosecutorial-misconduct-ruling/
Read the Transcripts Here
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12B3vAOl2yedDdFPUEkAzrrovbHnUdayB?usp=sharing
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330 | The Fight to Reform Oklahoma's Failure to Protect Laws w/Alexandra Bailey and Cindy Nguyen
Today, Hunter spoke with Alexandra Bailey and Cindy Nguyen to discuss Oklahoma’s Failure to Protect Laws. A few years back, Alexandra joined the show to discuss theses laws, and as a reminder, these laws allow for victims of domestic violence, mostly women, to be sentenced to longer jail sentences for failing to protect their children from abuse than the men who commit the abuse. Today, Cindy and Alexandra join the show to discuss the fight to reform these laws.
Guest
Alexandra Bailey, Domestic Violence Survivor and Advocate
Cindy Nguyen, Policy Director, Oklahoma ACLU
Resources:
SB 594: https://www3.oklegislature.gov/BillInfo.aspx?Bill=sb594&Session=2500
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2025/02/oklahoma-failure-to-protect-kerry-king-dave-rader/
ACLU-OK Research/Stats for FTP:
- 1 in 4 women convicted of failure to protect received sentences longer than the man convicted of abusing the child.
- 93% of those convicted under failure to protect are women.
- Almost half of the women convicted under failure to protect were experiencing domestic violence.
Key Stories:
ACLU of Oklahoma
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329 | Prosecutorial Reform and the Myth of Individualized Enforcement w/Justin Murray
Today, Hunter spoke with Professor Justin Murray about his recent law review article, Prosecutorial Reform and the Myth of Individualized Enforcement. On several past episodes, Hunter has explored the field of Progressive Prosecution. As he has uncovered, much of the push back to these types of prosecutors is their decision not to prosecute certain types of crimes. Today, Justin is here to show how that critique does not comport with the history of prosecution, and he asks us to rethink how we understand how Progressive Prosecution should/does operate in our society.
Guest
Justin Murray, Professor of Law, New York Law School
Resources:
Justin’s Faculty Page
https://www.nyls.edu/faculty/justin-murray/
Law Review Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4932729
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Resgitser for the ABA Public Defense Summit Here
https://events.americanbar.org/event/770bddad-346e-4f89-85f1-3e5b1d92b4ba/regProcessStep1
328 | How the Laken Riley Act Could Get Innocent People Sent to Guantanamo Bay w/Ann Block and Nithya Nathan-Pineau
Today, Hunter spoke with Ann Block and Nithya Nathan-Pineau from the Immigrant Resource Legal Center to discuss the newest immigration related legislation, executive orders, and policies coming from the Trump administration. Starting with the Laken Riley act, Hunter, Ann, and Nithya walk through the ways in which the criminal and immigration legal systems are fusing together to target immigrants around the country.
Guest
Ann Block, Senior Staff Attorney, Immigrant Resource Legal Center
Nithya Nathan-Pineau, Policy Attorney and Strategist, Immigrant Resource Legal Center
Resources:
Contact IRLC
https://www.facebook.com/immigrantlegalresourcecenter
https://www.linkedin.com/company/immigrant-legal-resource-center
https://www.instagram.com/the_ilrc?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D
https://www.tiktok.com/@the_ilrct=8mP0a8dAdtT&r=1
Laken Riley Act
https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/5
https://www.ilrc.org/resources/laken-riley-act-juvenile-delinquency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laken_Riley
At Around 1Hour and 7 minutes, Hunter spoke about the motivations of Eric Adams to support Trump’s immigration policy. At the time of the record, Eric Adams was still facing a criminal charge. As of Feb 10, the charges against Eric Adams were dropped. In the memo to drop the charges, DOJ officials brought up that the charges needed to be dropped so Eric Adams wouldn’t be restricted in solving immigration in NYC.
https://apnews.com/article/eric-adams-indictment-109ef48bd49bc8adc1850709c99bf666
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/justice-department-moves-drop-case-new-york-city/story?id=118672417 (Dismissal Letter Found Here)
Original Charges
People being Sent to GTMO
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/guantanamo-bay-migrants-trump/
https://migrantinsider.com/p/air-jordan-tattoo-prompts-ice-to
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327 | Should we Have Universal Public Defense w/Alexis Hoag-Fordjour
Today, Hunter spoke with Professor Alexis Hoag-Fordjour about two of her most recent law review articles. In her first, she argues for a new way of thinking about how we evaluate claims of ineffective assistance of counsel. In her second article, she makes the case for why public defense should be universally applied.
Guest
Alexis Hoag-Fordjour, Professor of Law, Scholar in Residence, Co-Director Center for Criminal Justice, Brooklyn Law School
Resources:
Universal Public Defense
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5007431
Back to the Future: (Re)Constructing Ineffective Assistance of Counsel
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4772028
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326 | How Cuyahoga County Jail Keeps Prisoners from their Family and Records their Conversations w/Nikki Baszynski
Today, Hunter spoke once again with Nikki Baszynski of the Wren Collective to talk about the Criminal Legal System in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. This time, they discussed an update about youth representation in the county, and they also did a deep dive into how the county jail is denying prisoners in person visits and recording their conversations with family.
Guest
Nikki Baszynski, Principal, Wren Collective
Resources:
Wren Collective Report
https://www.wrencollective.org/_files/ugd/8fe8f0_72700fa56eda43d78203966a3fbff476.pdf
Other Reporting on Cuyahoga County Jail Issues
https://signalcleveland.org/cuyahoga-county-jail-death-medical-care/
Today, Hunter spoke once again with Nikki Baszynski of the Wren Collective to talk about the Criminal Legal System in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. This time, they discussed an update about youth representation in the county, and they also did a deep dive into how the county jail is denying prisoners in person visits and recording their conversations with family.
Guest
Nikki Baszynski, Principal, Wren Collective
Resources:
Wren Collective Report
https://www.wrencollective.org/_files/ugd/8fe8f0_72700fa56eda43d78203966a3fbff476.pdf
Other Reporting on Cuyahoga County Jail Issues
https://signalcleveland.org/cuyahoga-county-jail-death-medical-care/
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325 | Is Kansas Public Defense on the Verge of a Crisis? w/Heather Cessna
Today, Hunter spoke once again with Heather Cessna, the Executive Director of the Kansas Board of Indigents’ Defense Services. This time, Hunter and Heather discuss how Kansas Public Defense could be close to collapsing due to a lack of lawyers and a legislature that has yet to properly address the issue.
Guest
Heather Cessna, Executive Director, Kansas Board of Indigents’ Defense Services
Resources:
Contact KBDIS
Contact Heather
Rural Justice Report
KBIDS Wellness Report
https://www.ksbids.gov/initiatives
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324 | The Fight to End Youth Shackling and Limit Mass Surveillance in Virginia w/Rob Poggenklass and Bryan Kennedy
Today, Hunter spoke once again with Rob Poggenklass and Bryan Kennady from Justice Forward Virginia. Last year, Justice Forward Virginia joined the show to discuss the 2024 criminal justice policies being floated in Virginia. Today, Rob and Bryan are here to discuss what the 2025 legislative session has in store for criminal justice reform in Virginia.
Guest
Rob Poggenklass, Executive Director, Justice Forward Virginia
Bryan Kennedy, Public Defender, Fairfax County, Treasurer, Justice Forward Virginia
Resources:
Justice Forward Virginia 2025 Legislative Priorities
https://justiceforwardva.com/blog/2024/12/13/2025-virginia-general-assembly-legislative-priorities
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323 | How One Inconsistent Eye Witness Led to the Wrongful Conviction of Ivery Dorsey w/Kerrie Liang
Today, Hunter spoke with Kerrie Liang, a student at Princeton University, to discuss the wrongful conviction of Ivery Dorsey. Through her and classmates work at Princeton, Kerrie walks us through how the inconsistent eye witness testimony of one person ultimately led to the wrongful conviction of Ivery.
Guest
Kerrie Liang, Student, Princeton University
Resources:
More Resources about Ivery’s Case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpV9qkt7JHM
https://www.instagram.com/bringiveryhome/reel/CsKxrNrOGgy/
https://makinganexoneree.org/2023
https://www.gofundme.com/f/wrongfully-convictedlegal-help-for-ivery-dorsey
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/ivery-dorsey-case-princeton-students/
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322 | The Impact of and the Resistance to Mass Deportation Policies w/Hans Meyer and Holly Lucas
Today, Hunter spoke with Hans Meyer and Holly Lucas to discuss a variety of topics at the intersection of the criminal legal and immigration systems. With the Trump administration poised to implement a policy of mass deportation, Hans and Holly offer insights into how they have worked in court rooms and the Colorado State Legislature to guide Colorado to more humane immigration policies.
Guest
Holly Lucas, Public Defender, Colorado State Public Defender
Hans Meyer, Criminal Defense and Immigration Lawyer, The Meyer Law Office
Resources:
Contact Hans
https://themeyerlawoffice.com/
Laken Riley Act
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-statement-on-senate-advancing-laken-riley-act-to-final-vote
What to do if ICE shows up
https://www.nilc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/EmployerGuide-NELP-NILC-2017-07-1.pdf
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/immigrants-rights
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321 | How Virginia Prison Officials Lied About Red Onion Prisoner Lighting Themselves on Fire w/Elizabeth Weill-Greenberg
Today, Hunter spoke with Senior Reporter at The Appeal, Elizabeth Weill-Greenberg. A few weeks ago, Hunter was joined by Phil Wilayto of the Virginia Defender to talk about why prisoners of Virginia’s Red Onion Prison were lighting themselves on fire. Today, Elizabeth joins to reveal how despite the public proclamations by DOC officials, prisoners were lighting themselves on fire all along.
Guest
Elizabeth Weill-Greenberg, Senior Reporter, The Appeal
Resources:
Follow Elizabeth
https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:dld6gvzefnncxuiaccy2u3qn
Read about Red Onion Prison
https://theappeal.org/red-onion-virginia-prison-self-immolated/
https://www.vpm.org/news/2024-12-06/ekong-eshiet-kevin-rashid-johnson-red-onion-vadoc-wise-county
https://www.prisonradio.org/news-update/red-onion-state-prison-update/
https://theappeal.org/virginia-prison-response-red-onion-self-immolation/
https://theappeal.org/prisoners-intentionally-burned-themselves-red-onion-state-prison-virginia/
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320 | Carceral Apartheid: How Lies and White Supremacists Run Our Prisons w/Brittany Friedman
Today, Hunter spoke with Professor Brittany Freidman about her new book Carceral Apartheid. In this book, Professor Freidman tells the story of the California Prison System, the racist violence the system permits to exist, and how the prison system used all of us power to crush the political arm of the Black Guerilla Family. Through this conversation, Hunter and Professor Freidman hope to demonstrate what our system does and does not permit to continue.
Guest
Brittany Friedman, Professor of Sociology, University of Southern California
Resources:
Pick up a Copy of Brittany’s Book
https://uncpress.org/book/9781469683409/carceral-apartheid/
COINTELPRO
https://vault.fbi.gov/cointel-pro
https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/federal-bureau-investigation-fbi
https://www.pbs.org/hueypnewton/actions/actions_cointelpro.html
https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/about/news/fbi
https://www.brandeis.edu/writing-program/write-now/2018-2019/silverman-jacob/index.html
https://onlineexhibits.library.yale.edu/s/black-panther-may-day/page/the-black-panthers-and-the-fb
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319 | How a Petty Theft Could get you 180 Days in Jail in Rifle Municipal Court w/Scott Troxell
Today, Hunter sat down with Scott Troxell to wrap up our conversation on Colorado Municipal Courts. This time, the conversation focuses on how Rifle Municipal Courts were giving people 6 Months sentences for thefts that the state only gave 10 day sentences.
Guest
Scott Troxell, Attorney, Glenwood Springs, Colorado
Resources:
2017 ACLU Report on Colorado Municipal Courts
https://www.aclu-co.org/sites/default/files/JUSTICE-DERAILED-web.pdf
Coverage of Municipal Courts in Rifle by Denver Post
https://www.denverpost.com/2024/12/24/colorado-legislature-municipal-court-bills/
https://www.denverpost.com/2024/09/22/colorado-municipal-courts-sentences-minor-crime/
ACLU Amicus Brief
https://www.aclu-co.org/en/cases/mobley-v-city-rifle-amicus
Rifle Changes Ordinance
Current Colorado Supreme Court Issues
https://www.aclu-co.org/en/cases/camp-v-city-westminster-amicus
https://www.aclu-co.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/2024-11-07_aclu_cff_amicus_br.pdf
Contact Scott
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318 | How to Fight and Abolish the Death Penalty Outside of the Courtroom w/Abraham Bonowitz
Today, Hunter sat down with longtime death penalty abolitionist activist Abraham Bonowitz. On previous episodes about death penalty abolition, the show has primarily focused on the successes and failures of the fight in the court room. Today however, Abe joins the show to discuss the types of media campaigns and coalition building that is necessary to fight and ultimately abolish the death penalty outside of the four corners of the court house.
Guest
Abraham Bonowitz, Executive Director, Death Penalty Action
Resources:
Death Penalty Action contact
https://deathpenaltyaction.org/
https://www.facebook.com/deathpenaltyaction
https://www.instagram.com/deathpenaltyaction/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMW5q-nvTO9XSm38BwgwJgw
Melissa Lucio
https://www.amazon.com/State-Texas-Vs-Melissa-Special/dp/B08L3Q69NR
https://www.texastribune.org/2024/04/15/melissa-lucio-death-penalty-judge-overturn/
Commutations
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/23/g-s1-38794/biden-death-row-commutations
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/23/us/politics/biden-commutes-37-death-sentences.html
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317 | How Pueblo Municipal Court Used Contempt of Court to Send People to Jail for Years w/Keri Williams
Today, Hunter sat down with Keri Williams to continue our coverage of Municipal Courts in Colorado. This time, they discussed how Pueblo Municipal Courts were giving people years in jail for contempt of court charges.
Guest
Keri Williams, Attorney, Pueblo, Colorado
Resources:
2017 ACLU Report on Colorado Municipal Courts
https://www.aclu-co.org/sites/default/files/JUSTICE-DERAILED-web.pdf
Coverage of Municipal Courts in Pueblo by Denver Post
https://www.denverpost.com/2024/07/21/pueblo-municipal-contempt-of-court-charges-jail-time/
https://www.denverpost.com/2024/08/01/pueblo-municipal-court-workplace-investigation/
https://www.denverpost.com/2024/09/11/pueblo-contempt-court-city-defends-investigation/
https://www.denverpost.com/2024/10/11/pueblo-judge-contempt-of-court-aclu-challenge/
https://www.denverpost.com/2024/12/10/pueblo-inmates-released-contempt-court-ruled-unconstitutional/
Contact Keri
keri.williams@beckerlawgroup.net
https://www.beckerlawgroup.net/
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316 | The Everyday Cruelty in Westminster Municipal Court w/Alison Gordon
Today, Hunter sat down with Alison Gordon to continue our coverage of Municipal Courts in Colorado. This time, the discussion focuses on the extremely punitive Westminster Municipal Court.
Guest
Alison Gordon, Associate Attorney, McCabe Law
Resources:
2017 ACLU Report on Colorado Municipal Courts
https://www.aclu-co.org/sites/default/files/JUSTICE-DERAILED-web.pdf
Contact Alison
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315 | How People Are Denied the Right to Counsel in Grand Junction Municipal Court w/Tristan Gorman and Rebecca Wallace
Today, Tristan Gorman and Rebecca Wallace are back this time to discuss municipal courts in Colorado. This episode is the first of our four-part series on municipal courts in Colorado. This episode gives a general overview of problems in this courts and then dives into the outright denial of counsel happening in Grand Junction’s Municipal Court.
Guest
Tristan Gorman, Policy Director, Colorado Criminal Defense Bar
Rebecca Wallace, Policy Director, Colorado Freedom Fund
Resources:
2017 ACLU Report on Colorado Municipal Courts
https://www.aclu-co.org/sites/default/files/JUSTICE-DERAILED-web.pdf
Coverage by the Denver Post
Coverage by Grand Junction Daily Sentinel
CFF Website
https://www.coloradofreedomfund.org/
CCDB Website
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314 | The Policies Making Colorado More "Tough on Crime" w/Tristan Gorman and Rebecca Wallace
Today, Tristan Gorman and Rebecca Wallace join the show to discuss the policies, ballot initiatives, and rhetoric from district attorneys that is pushing Colorado back in a “tough on crime” direction. Through their work with their respective organizations, Rebecca and Tristan are intimately familiar with the conversations that the state legislature engage in around crime and the criminal legal system.
Guest
Tristan Gorman, Policy Director, Colorado Criminal Defense Bar
Rebecca Wallace, Policy Director, Colorado Freedom Fund
Resources:
Colorado Freedom Fund Links
https://www.coloradofreedomfund.org/
https://www.coloradofreedomfund.org/2024-legislation
Colorado Criminal Defense Bar
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BONUS: Discussion/Debate w/a Former Cop about The Killing of Roger Fortson, The Execution of Marcellus Williams and The Citation of a Homeless Pregnant Woman in KY
A Bonus Episode for everyone! On Monday, I had a discussion/debate with Daniel Carr, a former cop from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Today, we discussed/debated the use of force in the SrA Roger Fortson, the Execution of Marcellus Williams, and the citation issued to a homeless, pregnant woman in Louisville Kentucky
Guest
Daniel Carr, Police Law Newsletter
Resources:
Links to Daniel’s Work
https://linktr.ee/policelawnews
SrA Roger Fortson Case
https://apnews.com/article/airman-shot-florida-deputy-roger-fortson-760057db9fd9c7b2f25e85b1b285e8e3
Execution of Marcellus Williams
Pregnant KY Woman Cited for Unlawful Camping
https://www.wlky.com/article/body-cam-footage-lmpd-citing-pregnant-homeless-woman-labor/63251559
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/20/pregnant-kentucky-woman-labor
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2024 Wrap Up, Top 10 Episodes of 2024, and What is Next for the Show
Thank you to everyone who has made the show possible this year. Whether you are a listener, a subscriber, a guest, or a friend of the show, this show would not be possible without you! Thanks for another amazing year, and Hunter is looking forward to another incredible year in 2025.
*NO EPISODES THIS THURSDAY OR NEXT TUESDAY*
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313 | How Marsy's Law is Undermining the Criminal Legal System w/Ráchael Powers
Today, Hunter is joined by professor Ráchael Powers to discuss Marsy’s Law. For those unfamiliar, Marsy’s Law is one of many types of Victim’s Bill of Rights law that exist around the country. These laws are designed to give victims of crime more rights in the criminal legal system. The only problem? They often directly conflict with the rights of the accused. Today, Ráchael joins us to talk about a report she published for the NACDL about the dangers of Marsy’s Law.
Guests:
Ráchael Powers
Resources:
Contact Ráchael
https://researchdirectory.uc.edu/p/powersro
https://x.com/rpowerscrim?lang=en
Read the Report
https://www.nacdl.org/Document/JusticeforNoneHowMarsysLawUnderminesCrimLegalSys
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312 | How to Create More Opportunities to Fight the Government's Case Pre-Trial w/Chesa Boudin and Eric Fish
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Eric Fish and Chesa Boudin. This time, Eric and Chesa join the show to discuss a recent law review article they published discussing ways to strengthen pre-trial adjudication. As discussed at length on the show, our criminal legal system has killed the jury trial. As a result, opportunities to bring injustices, misconduct, and corruption to light have faded away. Chesa and Eric’s law review article attempts to point out places around the country that have figured out ways to revive adversarial aspects of our legal system before trial. In doing so, they offer a pathway that criminal defense lawyers may be able to increase their chances to oppose the governments case in public.
Guests:
Chesa Boudin, Executive Director, UC Berkley Criminal Law and Justice Center
Eric Fish, Professor of Law, UC Davis School of Law
Resources:
Contact Chesa
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/our-faculty/faculty-profiles/chesa-boudin/#tab_profile
https://x.com/chesaboudin?lang=en
Contact Eric
https://law.ucdavis.edu/people/eric-fish
Law Review Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5026754
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311 | How the Supreme Court Injected Chaos and Confusion into the Second Amendment w/Jacob Charles
Today, Hunter is joined by Professor Jacob Charles to discuss the Second Amendment. Since D.C. v Heller in 2008, the Second Amendment transformed from nearly dead letter law to one of the most rapidly changing areas of the Constitution. Jake joins the show to detail that transformation and explain the impacts it is having on our legal system.
Guests:
Jacob Charles, Professor of Law, Pepperdine University Caruso School of Law
Resources:
Contact Jake
https://law.pepperdine.edu/faculty-research/jacob-charles/
https://bsky.app/profile/jacobdcharles.bsky.social
SSRN
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=1714457
Heller
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/
Bruen
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-843_7j80.pdf
Rahimi
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-915_8o6b.pdf
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310 | How the Junk Science Shaken Baby Syndrome Infected the Criminal Legal System w/Dr. Julie Mack and Randy Papetti
Today, Hunter is joined by Dr. Julie Mack and Randy Papetti to discuss Shaken Baby Syndrome. Also known as Abusive Head Trauma, Shaken Baby Syndrome started out as an untested hypothesis meant to help parents keep their children safe. However, police and prosecutors quickly realized the power SBS had to secure convictions. Since then, dozens of people’s convictions have been overturned as courts around the country realize that SBS is an unfounded, junk science that does not belong in the criminal court room.
Guests:
Dr. Julie Mack, Radiologist
Randy Papetti, Attorney
Resources:
CATO Institute on Shaken Baby Syndrome https://www.cato.org/events/shaken-baby-syndrome-examining-evidence-shadow-execution
Randy’s Book on Shaken Baby Syndrome
https://www.amazon.com/Forensic-Unreliability-Shaken-Baby-Syndrome/dp/0998904333
Feigned Consensus: Usurping the Law in Shaken Baby Syndrome/ Abusive Head Trauma Prosecutions
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3104&context=articles
Swedish Study on SBS
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28130787/
Robert Roberson
https://www.texastribune.org/2024/10/29/robert-roberson-shaken-baby-texas-death-row-evidence/
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309 | The Problems and Promise of Public Defense in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania w/Rob Perkins and Dan Eichinger
Today, Hunter is joined by Rob Perkins and Dan Eichinger to discuss Public Defense in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. If you’ve listened to the show long enough, then you know that Pennsylvania was one of the last states to provide any funding for Public Defense. While the $7.5 million allocated to support Public Defense is welcome, it is insufficient to account for the decades of underfunding/understaffing in places like Allegheny County. Yet, Dan and Rob believe that with the help of new county leadership, they can finally meet the demands of Gideon in Allegheny County.
Guests:
Rob Perkins, Executive Director, Allegheny Lawyer’s Initiative for Justice
Daniel Eichinger, Program Administrator, Wayne County Indigent Defense Services
Resources:
Allegheny Lawyers Initiative for Justice
Allegheny Public Defender Report
https://www.ali4j.org/research-report-a-path-forward
ACLU Report
https://www.aclupa.org/en/job-left-undone-allegheny-countys-fork-road
2018 Coverage of Public Defense
Email Rob
During the Episode Dan, mentioned Racial Disparity in Allegheny County. Here is an additional note from him:
RAND_RTI_Final_Report.pdf (pitt.edu)
Additionally, I mentioned that half of all charges filed against Black people arise from a police initiated encounter. My phrasing could have been more precise as the paper refers to charges arising out of "Black neighborhoods" (as opposed to Black people) and I didn't mention the numbers in terms of the disparity between White neighborhoods, so I wanted to make sure your listeners had the exact language from the report:
(Pg. 47 of the report, pg. 91 of the document):
"In particular, charges that are filed in Black neighborhoods are almost equally likely to initiate from either a call for service or a low-priority law enforcement action (30% versus 27%). However, in the White matched neighborhoods, charges are more than twice as likely to originate from a call for service than from a low-priority law enforcement action (38% versus 17%)."
Additionally, the percentage of charges growing out of a police-initiated interaction is likely higher because, as the authors note (pg. 46):
"Thirty-two percent of the cases could not be matched to the 911 call data. As noted in the previous section, these are likely to be instances where law enforcement officers initiated an action but did not call it in. These unmatched cases are thus classified as unidentified law enforcement–initiated actions."
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308 | How the Fear of Too Much Justice Keeps Our Legal System Cruel w/Stephen Bright
Today, Hunter is joined by Professor Stephen Bright to discuss his new book, the Fear of Too Much Justice. Over decades of work as an attorney, Steve has been a leading voice against the death penalty and in support of major overhauls to our criminal legal system. Today, Steve joins the show to discuss how the Fear of Too Much Justice is stopping people from reforming our criminal legal system.
Guests:
Stephen Bright, Professor of Law, Yale University School of Law
Resources:
Stephen Bright’s Faculty Page
https://law.yale.edu/stephen-b-bright
Fear of Too Much Justice
https://www.thefearoftoomuchjustice.com/
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307 | Why Are Prisoners at Virginia's Red Onion Prison Severely Burning Themselves? w/Phil Wilayto
Today, Hunter is joined the Editor of the Virginia Defender Newspaper, Phil Wilayto to try and understand a simple question: Why are people incarcerated at Virginia’s Red Onion State Super Max Prison self-immolating just to get transferred to a new prison?
Guests:
Phil Wilayto, Editor, Virginia Defender Newspaper
Resources:
On Saturday, Dec. 7, the Virginia Defenders for Freedom, Justice & Equality will hold a public meeting titled “Crisis at Red Onion Supermax: How you can help!” The meeting will take place at Wesley Memorial United Methodist Church, 1720 Mechanicsville Turnpike, in Richmond’s East End.
For more information, call, or text the Defenders at 804-644-5834 or email DefenddersFJE@hotmail.com.
Crisis at Red Onion Face Book Page
More Coverage
https://www.wvtf.org/news/2024-11-12/fearful-prisoners-use-desperate-measures-to-protest
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/30/red-onion-state-prison-protest
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/01/us/virginia-prisoners-burns-protest.html
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306 | Why it's Nearly Impossible to Hold the Government Accountable for Violating your Rights w/Joanna Schwartz
Today, Hunter is joined by Professor Joanna Schwartz to discuss Civil Rights Litigation. Like they did for the rights of criminal defendants, the conservative legal movement has slowly chipped away at Civil Rights protections under Section 1983. Today, Joanna joins to talk about the many ways it is nearly impossible for a person to get a remedy after the government violates their civil rights.
Guests:
Joanna Schwartz, Professor of Law, UCLA
Resources:
Follow Joanna on Twitter
Joanna’s Website
https://www.joannaschwartz.net/
https://law.ucla.edu/faculty/faculty-profiles/joanna-c-schwartz
Vallejo Police Coverage
https://www.kqed.org/news/11769266/the-long-storied-history-of-police-community-tension-in-vallejo
https://www.propublica.org/article/vallejo-police-killing-investigations
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/11/23/how-a-deadly-police-force-ruled-a-city
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305 | How Prosecutors Might get Rewarded for Messing Up the Harvey Weinstein Case w/Amanda Jack
Today, Hunter is joined by Amanda Jack of the New York Legal Aid Society. Today, Amanda and Hunter are discussing the Harvey Weinstein trial. Specifically, they are discussing why the conviction was overturned, why the New York legislature is trying to change the rules of evidence, and why it’s a terrible idea for them to do it.
Guests:
Amanda Jack, Policy Director Criminal Practice, NY Legal Aid Society
Resources:
Follow Amanda on Twitter
Federal Rule of Evidence 413 and Harvey Weinstein
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304 | One Step Forward and Two Steps Back Mississippi Public Defense w/Andre de Gruy
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Andre de Gruy, Chief Public Defender of Mississippi. The last time Andre was on the show, he and Hunter discussed some positive changes he was hoping to get out of the 2024 legislative session. While not everything from the last episode came to pass, Andre believes Mississippi public defense is ever so slowly improving.
Guests:
Andre de Gruy, State Public Defender, Mississippi
Resources:
OSPD Website
Marshall Project Mississippi
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2024/05/02/mississippi-public-defense-legislative-reforms
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/09/18/mississippi-courts-lawyers-poor-defendants
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2024/01/24/arrested-hinds-county-mississippi-jackson-courts
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303 | How A.I. Can Help Public Defenders Challenge Police and Prosecutors Part 2 w/Prabhas Pokharel
Today, Hunter is joined be the Co-Founder of Reduct, Prabhas Pokharel. Building from Tuesday’s conversation about tech, AI, and Public Defense, Hunter and Prabhas explore the ways AI and Reduct can help Public Defenders take on Police and Prosecutors.
Guests:
Prabhas Pokharel, Co-Founder, Reduct
Resources:
Reduct Website, Socials, and Contact
Standford Legal AI Study
https://hai.stanford.edu/news/ai-trial-legal-models-hallucinate-1-out-6-or-more-benchmarking-queries
https://dho.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/Legal_RAG_Hallucinations.pdf
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302 | How A.I. is Helping Police and Prosecutors Surveil, Arrest, and Incarcerate People w/Andrew Ferguson
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Professor Andrew Ferguson. Last time Andrew was on the show, he and Hunter discussed the state of the 4th Amendment in the digital era. This time, Hunter and Andrew dive into three law review articles Andrew has recently published. The first discussed a new framework for analyzing the 4th Amendment. The second and third articles are all about new, dangerous was police and prosecutors are relying on AI.
Guests:
Andrew Ferguson, Professor of Law, American University Washington College of Law
Resources:
Andrew’s Faculty Page
https://www.american.edu/wcl/faculty/ferguson.cfm
Andrews Law Review Articles
Digital Rummaging
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4377633
AI in Police Reports
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4897632
Video Analytics and the Fourth Amendment
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4766249
U.S. v Tuggle
More on AI in Police Reports
https://www.kqed.org/news/12007520/how-artificial-intelligence-is-changing-the-reports-police-write
https://www.propublica.org/article/police-body-cameras-video-ai-law-enforcement
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301 | How A.I. Can Help Public Defenders Challenge Police and Prosecutors Part 1 w/IV Ashton
Today, Hunter is joined by IV Ashton, Founder and President of Legal Server, to discuss how a quality case management system and powerful AI tools can help Public Defenders pose more systemic challenges to police and prosecutors
Guests:
IV Ashton, President and Founder, Legal Server
Resources:
Legal Server Website
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300 | How Mitigation is Helping Veterans Escape the Criminal Legal System w/Nancy Farrell and Dee Miller
Today, Hunter is joined by Nancy Farrell and Dee Miller of the New York Vet Defense Program. Previously on the show, Hunter and other guests have described the power of veteran and other treatment courts. However, we have often lamented at the limited scope that this courts offer veterans who need help but just not drug or alcohol treatment. With this program, Nancy and Dee offer veterans the culturally competent mitigation and service connection that helps Vets escape the criminal legal system.
Guests:
Nancy Farrell, Director, New York Vet Defense
Dee Miller, Program Coordinator, Vet Defense
Resources:
Connect With NY Vet Defense
585 219 4862
Website
https://www.nysda.org/page/VetsDefTest
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299 | How NAPD is Fostering a National Forum for Public Defense Innovations w/Jeff Sherr
Today, Hunter is joined once again by NAPD’s Jeff Sherr. This time, they sat down to discuss NAPD’s new Change Maker Forum, what Hunter learned from attending, and how NAPD hopes to use it to spark new, impactful changes in Public Defense.
Guests:
Jeff Sherr, Director of Training, National Association of Public Defense
Resources:
NAPD Changemaker Forum 2025
https://publicdefenders.us/event/the-changemakers-forum-napd-strategic-exchange-3/
Notes from 2024
https://publicdefenders.us/blogs/napd-changemakers-forum-tackles-public-defense-challenges/
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298 |What the History of ULCA’s Police Department Tells Us About the Issues with Campus Police w/Andrew Guerrero
Today, Hunter is joined by Ph.D. candidate and law student Andrew Gurrero to discuss his research about the evolution of the UCLA police department. In this episode, Hunter and Andrew explore the origins of the department and the forces that drove the department away from its original mandate.
Guests:
Andrew Gurrero, Ph.D Candidate, Harvard
Resources:
Read Sources Discussed in the Episode Here
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12_jIy21jUCsPS4qEqSAMjxxvx1Tlce6r?usp=sharing
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297 | The Successes and Failings of Plea Bargaining in Europe w/Rebecca Shaeffer
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Rebecca Schaffer to discuss plea bargaining in Europe. As we did on Tuesday, this episode aims to help people understand the intractable problems with plea deals and what countries are doing to try and ameliorate those problems
Guests:
Rebecca Schaffer, Former Legal Director, Fair Trials
Resources:
Follow Rebecca on Twitter
https://x.com/rebeccashaeffe?lang=en
Email Rebecca
Read the Reports
https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/publications/the-disappearing-trial/
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296 | How South Dakota is Fixing its Public Defense Crisis w/Aditi Goel
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Aditi Goel of the Sixth Amendment Center. This time, we discuss their recent report about Public Defense in South Dakota. Like many county based, county funded Public Defense systems, South Dakota is plagued with underfunding, under staffing, lack of independence, and cost saving practices that make Public Defense ineffective. Yet, this episode has a ray of hope because for the first time in its history, the state appears poised to radically reimagine how it funds, supports, and organizes Public Defense.
Guests:
Aditi Goel, Deputy Director, Sixth Amendment Center
Resources:
Read the Report Here:
New South Dakota Public Defense Commission
https://sdlegislature.gov/Session/Bill/24943/265191
Task Force Report
https://ujs.sd.gov/uploads/committees/Indigent/ILSTaskForceFinalReportRecommendations.pdf
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295 | What Can be Learned About Plea Bargaining from Japan's Failed Plea Experiment w/Lucian Dervan
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Lucian Dervan to discuss plea bargaining. This time, he joins to discuss what we can learn about plea bargaining from Japan’s failed attempt to implement plea bargaining system.
Guests:
Lucian Dervan, Professor of Law and Director of Criminal Justice Studies, Belmont College of Law, Founding Director of the Plea Bargaining Institute
Resources:
Link to Lucian’s book on Plea Bargaining
https://www.americanbar.org/products/inv/book/440099902/
Lucian’s Work with Plea Bargaining Institute
https://pleabargaininginstitute.com/about-pbi/founding-director/
Study on Japan and Korea
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3768687
https://news.belmont.edu/dervan-shares-research-on-plea-bargaining-with-japanese-officials/
Original Study
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/jclc/vol103/iss1/1/
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294 | A Judicial Candidate Speaks Out Against Retaliation by a High Ranking Member of Oregon Public Defense w/Rachel Philips
Today, Hunter is joined by Oregon Criminal Defense and Victim’s Rights lawyer Rachel Philips. Over the past three years, Rachel has been outspoken about retaliation that women attorneys faced from members of the Oregon Public Defense Commission. She joins the show to discuss her efforts to bring that retaliation to light and to discuss her candidacy for a seat on the bench in Multnomah County.
Guests:
Rachel Philips, Criminal Defense Lawyer, Victim’s Rights Lawyer, Candidate for Judicial Position 38, Multnomah County, Oregon
Resources:
Links to the Judicial Race:
League of women voters candidate forum: https://youtu.be/goGR8mEDSy8?si=dx9UqPhHSI5BdzwM
League of women voters interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjwwMLP_JE
LWV candidate statements : https://www.vote411.org/plan-your-vote (If it doesn't pull it up, plug in my office address and it will by the race.
My campaign website: https://rachelphilipsforjudge.com/
Campaign Twitter: https://x.com/Rachel4Judge
Campaign Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rachelforjudge/
Oregonian article: https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2024/10/surprise-open-seat-for-multnomah-county-judge-draws-pack-of-contenders.html?outputType=amp
Willamette Week article: https://www.wweek.com/news/2024/09/12/the-window-opens-and-shuts-quickly-for-unusual-judicial-vacancy-in-multnomah-county/
Multnomah Bar Association Candidate Statements: https://www.mbabar.org/about/mba-news/candidate-statements---circuit-court-judge-position-38/
Also, here's the Oregonian's endorsement of the DA (not a surprise): https://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/2024/10/editorial-endorsement-november-2024-elect-jeff-auxier-to-multnomah-county-bench.html
And my answers to their questions: https://www.oregonlive.com/editors/2024/10/rachel-philips-multnomah-county-judge-position-38.html
Also Ballotpedia: https://ballotpedia.org/Rachel_Philips
And the Multnomah Bar Association candidate statements: https://mbabar.org/judicialcandidates
Folder with Report and Statements
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1QbvIppKcTDpSpLiQD4nFhA0IxLfVajiV?usp=sharing
Media coverage of defense crisis and investigation into OPDS, I tried to keep it mainly chronological, from oldest to most recent:
This mentions Tara Herivel not being paid her negotitated rate:
Tara's guest column: https://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/2022/03/opinion-oregons-public-defense-crisis-rooted-in-longstanding-failures.html
Here is Oregon ACLU landing page with timeline and their letters and actions: https://www.aclu-or.org/en/campaigns/fighting-gender-based-discrimination-public-defense-system#:~:text=Timeline-,August%202021,J.D.%2C%20to%20begin%20the%20investigation.
https://x.com/rachelbusygrl/status/1681469783194357762 - has opinion in Tara's case that she won against OPDS
Rachel’s letter to the editor in 2023: https://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/2023/05/readers-respond-public-defense-system-needs-accountability.html
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293 | Does Bail Reform Impact Crime Rates? w/Ames Grawert
Today, Hunter is joined by Ames Grawert of the Brennan Center to discuss a recent Brennan Center report of Bail Reform’s impact (or lack thereof) on crime rates.
Guests:
Ames Grawert, Senior Counsel, Brennan Center for Justice
Resources:
Read the Report
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/bail-reform-and-public-safety
Read more of Ames’ Work
https://www.brennancenter.org/experts/ames-grawert
Read More of Brennan Center’s Work
https://www.brennancenter.org/
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292 | How Participatory Defense Gets the Community Involved in the Courtroom w/Raj Jayadev
Today, Hunter is joined by Raj Jayadev of Silicon Valley De-Bug to discuss participatory defense. In the early 2000’s, Raj and SVDB sought to give communities a voice in places they traditionally were excluded from or ignored. Eventually, the community made clear that they needed and wanted a way to be more involved with the criminal legal system. From there, SVDB came up with participatory defense to help communities navigate the criminal legal system and play an active role in the defense of members of their community.
Guests:
Raj Jayadev, Coordinator of Silicon Valley De-Bug and National Participatory Defense Network
Resources:
Silicon Valley De-Bug Website
https://www.siliconvalleydebug.org/
And Socials
https://www.facebook.com/sv.debug
https://www.instagram.com/sv_debug/
Pick up a Copy of Raj’s Book
https://thenewpress.com/books/protect-your-people
https://www.amazon.com/Protect-Your-People-Participatory-Incarceration/dp/1620977001
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291 | How the Innocence Project of New Orleans is Fighting to Keep the Innocent out of Prison w/Jee Park
Today, Hunter is joined by Jee Park, the Executive Director of the Innocence Project of New Orleans to discuss wrongful convictions and post-conviction work in Louisiana. After our past two episodes, it should be clear that there are serious issues with adult and youth representation in Louisiana. Unfortunately, this keeps groups like IPNO extremely busy, and that ensures that inevitably they will not be able to help every person who Louisiana has wrongfully convicted.
Guests:
Jee Park, Executive Director, Innocence Project New Orleans
Resources:
Learn more about IPNO
https://www.facebook.com/IPNOLA/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCndzvJoSSZSqgT4_0D42zdw/videos
https://www.instagram.com/_ipno_/
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290 | How Louisiana's Governor is Reviving the "Super Predator" Myth to Police, Prosecute and Jail Young People w/Hannah Van De Car
Today, Hunter is joined by Hannah Van De Car to discuss the recent “tough on crime” policies that Louisiana Jeff Landry is pursuing in the Youth Justice space. From a repeal of raise the age to increased future punishment for children in possession of firearms, Governor Landry is taking an already punitive state and making it into one of the most pro carceral places on Earth.
Guests:
Hannah Van De Car, Deputy Legal Director, Louisiana Center for Children’s Rights
Resources:
Contact Hannah
https://lakidsrights.org/about-us/staff/hannah-van-de-car/
Check out the work of LCCR
https://www.facebook.com/lakidsrights
https://lakidsrights.org/we-advocate/youth-in-the-adult-system/
https://lakidsrights.org/we-advocate/youth-in-the-juvenile-system/
Reading about the Raise the Age Change
https://www.propublica.org/article/louisiana-teens-prosecution-reverse-raise-the-age
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289 | The Horrible Direction Louisiana Public Defense is Headed Under its New Leadership w/Derwyn Bunton
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Derwyn Bunton. The last time Derwyn was on the show, he was the chief Public Defender in the Orleans Parish of Louisiana, but he is now the Chief Legal Officer at the Southern Poverty Law Center. Today, Derwyn joined the show to discuss what has been happening with Louisiana’s Public Defender system. Specifically, Derwyn is here to discuss the consolidation of power into the hands of Remy Starns and the policies Remy is pursuing with his new found power.
Guests:
Derwyn Bunton, Chief Legal Officer, Southern Poverty Law Center
Resources:
Contact the Southern Poverty Law Center
https://www.instagram.com/splcenter/
https://www.facebook.com/SPLCenter
https://www.splcenter.org/about/staff/derwyn-bunton
Coverage of Louisiana Public Defense
https://boltsmag.org/jeff-landry-louisiana-public-defense/
Board votes down Starns’ proposal for salary cuts
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288 | The Problems and Potential for Utah's Patchwork Youth Defense System w/Pam Vickrey
Today, Hunter is joined by Pam Vickrey, Executive Director of the Utah Juvenile Defender Attorneys to discuss a recent report, conducted in partnership with the Gault Center, about the problems and promises of Youth Defense in Utah.
Guests:
Pam Vickrey, Executive Director, Utah Juvenile Defender Attorneys
Resources:
Read the Report Here
https://www.defendyouthrights.org/wp-content/uploads/Utah-Assessment-Report.pdf
Check out More of the Gault Center’s Work
https://www.defendyouthrights.org/
Utah Juvenile Defender Attorneys
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287 | How California Law Enforcement Agencies are Keeping Police Misconduct Hidden w/Katey Rusch
Today, Hunter is joined by journalist Katey Rusch to discuss her recent bombshell reporting on California law enforcement agencies use of “clean record” agreements to keep police misconduct from defense lawyers, the public, and even other law enforcement agencies.
Guests:
Katey Rusch, Reporter, California
Resources:
Contact Katey
https://journalism.berkeley.edu/person/katey-rusch/
https://www.facebook.com/kateyrusch/
Read the Reporting Here:
https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2024/police-clean-record-agreements/
https://www.sfchronicle.com/california/article/clean-record-agreements-investigation-19752768.php
https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2024/police-clean-record-agreements-pensions/
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286 | The Courts Giving Young People the Specialized Resources they Need to Succeed w/Paul Bowen and Jacqueline van Wormer
Today, Hunter is joined by Paul Bowen and Jacqueline van Wormer Ph.D. to discuss the juvenile treatment courts that they have helped set up around the country. As has been the case on previous episodes about youth defense, today we discuss both the politics and science behind ensuring that courts are considering the unique needs of the youth being processed through them.
Guests:
Paul Bowen, Project Director, Treatment Court Institute, All Rise
Jacquline van Wormer Ph.D., Director, Center for Advancing Justice, All Rise
Resources:
All Rise
https://allrise.org/news/meet-our-divisions-4/
https://www.instagram.com/allrise_org/
https://www.facebook.com/AllRise.org
https://www.youtube.com/@AllRise_org
https://www.linkedin.com/company/weallrise
Contact Paul
https://allrise.org/our-team/paul-bowen/
Contact Jacqueline
https://crmj.wsu.edu/chair-faculty-graduate-students-and-staff/faculty/jacqueline-van-wormer/
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285 | How the Civil Legal System Makes it Difficult to Hold Larry Nassar, the Catholic Church, and Other Powerful Organizations Accountable w/Parker Stinar
Today, Hunter is joined by civil litigator Park Stinar to discuss his work in suing people and organizations who have sexually violated his clients. Through his career, Parker has pursued justice against Larry Nassar and Michigan State, the Catholic Church, Juvenile Detention Facilities, and the University of Michigan because of their role in the sexual assault of his clients. While not a normal episode for the show, today we ask a vitally important question: If our criminal legal system is operating properly and it is difficult to secure a conviction, what other avenues are available to people to get remedy and redress for the wrongs done to them?
Guests:
Parker Stinar, Managing Partner, Stinar Gould Grieco and Hensley
Resources:
Parker Stinar Contact
https://www.sgghlaw.com/attorneys/parker-stinar/
Catholic Church
https://ballsandstrikes.org/legal-culture/louisiana-supreme-court-church-abuse-case/
Larry Nasser and University of Michigan State
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284 | How Alabama's Fines and Fees Fail Criminal Defendants, Victims, and the Entire State w/Leah Nelson and Judge Stephen Wallace
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Leah Nelson, and this time, she is joined by Judge Stepehen Wallace. On today’s episode, Leah and Judge Wallace are her to unveil their years long research into the fines and fees that the Jefferson County, Alabama Courts are extracting from criminal defendants. As will surprise no one who listens to the show, the fines and fees program fails the accused, fails victims, fails to fund the legal system, and thus, fails the entire state of Alabama.
Guests:
Leah Nelson, Co-Founder, Jefferson County Equitable Fines and Fees Project, Alabama
Stepehen Wallace, Circuit Judge, Jefferson County, Birmingham, Alabama
Resources:
Coverage of Aug. 2024 Releases
https://aldailynews.com/court-fee-system-inefficient-discriminatory-research-finds/
https://aldailynews.com/column-crime-and-garnishment/
https://aldailynews.com/capitol-journal-september-13-2024/
Oct. 2024 paper with IBM
https://krvarshney.github.io/pubs/LaraYejasJMNSTNBV_aies2024.pdf
Aug. 2024 with MDRC
https://www.mdrc.org/sites/default/files/JeffCoFines%26Fees_Brief_FInal.pdf
Background reading on--
Brookside (the Ferguson of Alabama): https://www.al.com/bankingoncrime/
Alabama tax policy and how the Alabama constitution encourages reliance on fines and fees: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/27/opinion/alabama-fines-fees.html
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283 | The Restorative Justice Program Trying to Heal the Wounds of a Wrongful Conviction w/Jennifer Thompson and Jamie Lau
Today, Hunter is joined by two people who’s work attempts to bring people together to heal after a wrongful conviction. Jennifer Thompson, Founder of Healing Justice, and Professor Jamie Lau from Duke University join the show to discuss how they help the wrongfully convicted, the victims in a wrongful conviction, the families of both, and the communities they are from come together to talk and hopefully heal from the bomb that is a wrongful conviction
Guests:
Jennifer Thompson, Founder, Healing Justice
Jamie Lau, Clinical Professor of Law, Duke University School of Law
Resources:
Healing Justice Website
https://healingjusticeproject.org/
Contact Jamie
Innocence Network
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282 | How a Former Public Defender Hopes to End Mass Incarceration as a Progressive Prosecutor w/Matthew S
Today, Hunter is joined by former Public Defender and current Senior Advisor to District Attorney Larry Krasner, Matthew Stiegler. After Tuesday’s episode, we saw the promise and limitations of Public Defenders holding police accountable, and today, we examine those same promises and limitations for criminal legal reforms that progressive prosecution offers.
Guests:
Matthew Stiegler, Senior Advisor to District Attorney Larry Krasner, Philadelphia
Resources:
Follow Matthew on Twitter
https://x.com/matthewstiegler?lang=en
Philly DA
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281 | How Philly Public Defenders Uncovered Systemic Abuses in the Philly Police Department w/Paula Sen and Michael Mellon
Today, Hunter is joined by two Philly Public Defenders, Michael Mellon and Paula Sen, to discuss how their work with the Philly Public Defender Police Accountability Unit helped to uncover a systemic pattern and practice of lies and illegal use of surveillance cameras.
Guests:
Paula Sen, Assistant Public Defender, Defender Association of Philadelphia
Michael Mellon, Assistant Public Defender, Defender Association of Philadelphia
Resources:
Reporting on the Illegal use of Surveillance Cameras
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280 | Why did the Stanislaus County Public Defender Say they Were Ready to Refuse Taking New Cases w/Jennifer Jennison
Today, Hunter is joined by Stanislaus County Chief Public Defender, Jennifer Jennison. In the past year, Jennifer has been confronted with the most challenging question a Chief can face: Should I refuse to take on new cases because the current workload that my attorneys have is unethically high? Today’s episode attempts to understand that historical and current conditions that lead Jennifer to make this difficult decision.
Guests:
Jennifer Jennison, Chief Public Defender, Stanislaus County, California
Resources:
Modesto Bee Reporting
https://www.modbee.com/news/local/article288551423.html
Stanislaus County Public Defender
https://www.stancounty.com/publicdefender/
OSPD Reporting on Public Defense in California
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279 | The Problems with Public Defense in Nueces County Texas w/Jessica Brand and Adrienne Johnson
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Jessica Brand and Adrienne Johnson of the Wren Collective. This time, Jessica and Adrienne join to discuss their recent report about the failings of Public Defense in Nueces County, Texas.
Guests:
Jessica Brand, Founder, Wren Collective
Adrienne Johnson, Senior Counsel, Wren Collective
Resources:
Wren Collective Website
https://www.wrencollective.org/
Wren Collective Report
https://www.wrencollective.orgfiles/ugd/8fe8f057ace02e045642318ef78fa366f9c32d.pdf
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278 | The Systemic Corruption and Coverups at the Denver Sheriff Department w/Brittany Iriart and Andy McNulty
Today, Hunter is joined by former whistleblower Brittany Iriart and Civil Rights Attorney Andy McNulty to discuss a scandalous coverup with the Denver Sheriffs Department. When she moved to a civilian oversight position with the Denver Sheriff, Brittany hoped to bring some much needed accountability to a department with a history of burying misconduct. Unfortunately, the incremental changes around the edges did little to reign in a department that viewed itself above the law.
Guests:
Brittany Iriart, Former Whistle Blower, Colorado
Andy McNulty, Civil Rights Attorney, Newman McNulty, Denver, Colorado
Resources:
Coverage of Brittany’s Case
https://whistleblowersblog.org/whistleblower-of-the-week/brittany-marie-iriart/
https://kdvr.com/news/problem-solvers/denver-whistleblower-loses-job/
https://kdvr.com/news/problem-solvers/video-shows-denver-deputy-punch-inmate-in-wheelchair/
Contact Andy
https://nmlaw.squarespace.com/whistleblower-wins
Government Accountability Project
Other Issues with Denver Sheriff
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277 | Venezuelan Gangs Haven't Taken Over Aurora, But What is Happening? w/Chase Woodruff
Today, Hunter is joined by Colorado Newsline Journalist Chase Woodruff. Over the past several weeks, Aurora, Colorado has been thrust into the national spotlight thanks to right wing media and politicians. Despite their many sensationalist claims, Aurora and the state at large have not in fact been taken over by Venezuelan gangs. Today’s episode is meant to help compile reporting and walk through some of the “evidence” that have been paraded out so that you can have a more informed understanding of how we got here.
Guests:
Chase Woodruff, Journalist, Colorado Newsline
Resources:
Aurora City Council and The Public Defender
https://x.com/maxamillianlevy/status/1778532516099772871
https://x.com/PDefenselessPod/status/1767741717598421010
https://x.com/PDefenselessPod/status/1762647344493809895
https://x.com/PDefenselessPod/status/1715131506861945192
The July 28 Incident
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1036818568011331
https://www.facebook.com/DanielleForAurora/posts/1012880767513650?ref=embed_post
Danelle Jurinsky on Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6361740992112
https://www.foxnews.com/us/suspected-tren-de-aragua-gang-members-aurora-colorado-released-1000-bond
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6361627530112
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6361224247112
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/auroras-violent-gang-problem-didnt-happen-over-night
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6361582011112
Coverage of The Venezuelan Gang
https://x.com/dcwoodruff/status/1831748770197074264
https://denverite.com/2024/09/04/venezuelan-gang-aurora-colorado-factcheck/
OP ED by Sengenberger
Thread with the Letter
https://x.com/PDefenselessPod/status/1832177118240759833
Issues with Gang Databases
https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/lawreview/vol94/iss4/11/
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276 | The Highest Law in the Land: How the Unchecked Power of Sheriffs Threatens Democracy w/Jessica Pishko
Today, Hunter is joined by Jessica Pishko to discuss her new book The Highest Law in the Land: How the Unchecked Power of Sheriffs Threatens Democracy. So far on the show, Hunter has spent a lot of time discussing the corruption and abuses of police and prosecutors, but the show has not spent much time discussing the issues of sheriffs. Thanks to years of incredible investigative journalism, Jessica provides an in depth and distributing account for how sheriffs around the country are posing a threat to civil liberties and our systems of checks and balances.
Guests:
Jessica Pishko, Lawyer, Journalist, and Author
Resources:
Pick up a copy of the book here
https://www.amazon.com/Highest-Law-Land-Unchecked-Threatens/dp/0593471318
Check out Jessica’s Substack
https://sheriffs.substack.com/
Follow Jessica on Twitter
https://x.com/JessPish?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Mark Lamb Prison Controversy
Joe Arpaio
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/29/1050490391/joe-arpaio-legal-costs-100-million-arizona-sheriff
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275 | How NACDL is Helping Public and Private Defenders Fight Back Against New Oppressive Policies w/Lisa Wayne
Today, Hunter is joined by Lisa Wayne, the Executive Director of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. In this episode, Lisa and Hunter discuss how NACDL is trying to help give Public and Private Defenders the tools, skills, and policies they need to fight for their clients in and out of the court room.
Guests:
Lisa Wayne, Executive Director, National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
Resources:
Trial Penalty
https://www.nacdl.org/Landing/TheTrialPenalty
NACDL
https://www.facebook.com/NACDL
https://www.instagram.com/nacdl/
https://www.tiktok.com/@nacdlofficial
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274 | Between 46%-99% of Colorado Public Defenders are Overworked. Why is the State Waiting Two Years for Workload Standards w/James Hardy and Kayleigh TenBarge
Today, Hunter is by two Colorado State Public Defenders, James Hardy and Kayleigh TenBarge. When this episode was first recorded, James, Kayleigh, and Hunter were primarily focused on a piece of legislation that the Defenders Union of Colorado attempted and failed to get through the state house. That bill sought to get workload standards in place in Colorado by mid-2025. After recording that segment, an audit of the Colorado State Public Defender dropped, and revealed that at least 46% and maybe as many as 99% of Public Defenders in Colorado are exceeding workloads. Considering that, OSPD has stated they will get a workload standard by mid-2026. But why the wait? What will happen in the interim? What relief will come to an increasingly overloaded system?
Guests:
Kayleigh TenBarge, Public Defender, Colorado, Secretary, Defenders Union of Colorado
James Hardy, Appellate Public Defender, Colorado, Executive Board Co-Chair, Defenders Union of Colorado
Resources:
Audit of the Colorado Public Defender
Defenders Union of Colorado
https://www.defendersunionco.org/
Defenders Union of Colorado Back Bill
Ethics Opinion
Bill
https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb24-1289
Email Kayleigh
Email DUC
executiveboard@defendersunionco.org
Defenders Union of Colorado Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/defenders_union_of_colorado/
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273 | How the Junk Science "Excited Delirium" Shields Cops From Accountability w/Rachel Kincaid
Today, Hunter is joined by Professor Rachel Kincaid to talk about her recent law review article about the junk science excited delirium. Through her research, we can trace how this science steeped in racism has been able to infect the legal system and provide police a shield for their unlawful uses of force.
Guests:
Rachel Kincaid, Professor of Law, Baylor University
Resources:
Read Rachel’s Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4831202
Professor Kincaid’s Faculty Page
https://law.baylor.edu/person/rachel-kincaid
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272 | The Challenges of Providing Holistic Defense in Rural North Carolina w/Beth Stang
Today, Hunter is joined by our first North Carolina Public Defender, Beth Stang. Today, we will be discussing all that is going right, going wrong, and what the future holds for Public Defense in Beth’s office that covers Henderson, Transylvania, and Polk counties.
Guests:
Beth Stang, Chief Public Defender, Henderson, Transylvania, and Polk County, North Carolina
Resources:
Email Beth
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271 | How a Person Can Get Evicted for being the Victim of a Crime too Many Times w/Alex Kornya
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Alex Kornya to discuss the intersection between the criminal and civil legal systems. Last time, Alex detailed how fines and fees abuse people in the criminal and civil legal systems, and today, Alex joins us to discuss crime nuisance ordinances and “Crime Free” Housing programs.
Guests:
Alex Kornya, Litigation Director and General Counsel, Iowa Legal Aid
Resources:
2020 story from the Atlantic about this issue and some history:
HUD guidance on how crime nuisance ordinances may violate the Fair Housing Act:
https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/FINALNUISANCEORDGDNCE.PDF
DOJ Reinforces Previous Guidance on Crime Nuisance
Justice Department Secures Landmark Agreement with City of Anoka, Minnesota, to End Disability Discrimination in “Crime-Free” Housing Program
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-secures-landmark-agreement-city-anoka-minnesota-end-disability
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270 | What Was Happening in Grants Pass, Oregon Before the Supreme Court OK'd Criminalizing Homelessness w/Jeremiah Hayden
Today, Hunter is joined by journalist Jeremiah Hayden. Over the past several months, Jeremiah has been covering the reality for homeless people in Grants Pass, Oregon. If you are familiar with that town, it is likely because it was the town at the center of the recent Supreme Court case saying it was okay to criminalize homeless people. Instead of diving into the decision, Jeremiah is here to help people understand what it was like for a homeless person living in the town and what will happen now that their very existence can be criminalized.
at around 55 minutes, Hunter said the city of Vail paid $26 million to not build affordable housing. The actual figure is $17 million
Guests:
Jeremiah Hayden, Staff Reporter, Street Roots, Portland Oregon
Resources:
Street Roots
Street Roots Reporting on Grants Pass
https://www.streetroots.org/news/archive/grants%2520pass
Grants Pass Decision
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-175_19m2.pdf
Martin v Boise
https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2019/04/01/15-35845.pdf
Gospel Mission Rescue
The Appeal's Coverage on Policies post Grants Pass
https://theappeal.org/supreme-court-homelessness-grants-pass-ruling-camping-bans/
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269 | How Oklahoma is Giving a Second Chance to Criminalized Domestic Violence Survivors w/Alexandra Bailey
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Alexandra Bailey, senior campaign strategist with the Sentencing Project, to discuss how her and a coalition of amazing activists were able to get a Domestic Violence Survivor Justice Act passed in Oklahoma.
Guests:
Alexandra Bailey, Senior Campaign Strategist, The Sentencing Project
Resources:
OK Survivor Justice Coalition
https://oksurvivorjusticecoalition.org/legislation
Sentencing Project
https://www.sentencingproject.org/
Email Alexandra abailey@sentencingproject.org
Coverage of the Bill
https://boltsmag.org/oklahoma-survivors-act/
https://www.sentencingproject.org/newsletter/oklahoma-survivors-act-overcomes-veto/
https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/just-the-start-domestic-violence-survivors-react-to-new-law
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268 | How the Los Angeles Public Defender Is Bringing Court to their Clients w/Ricardo Garcia and Marcus Huntley
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Ricardo Garcia and joining the show for the first time Marcus Huntley. On today’s show, Ricardo and Marcus detail how they were able to get a mobile court established in Los Angeles that brings court to a location that is easier for their clients to access.
Guests:
Ricardo Garcia, Chief Public Defender, Los Angeles Public Defender
Marcus Huntley, Head Deputy of Collaborative & Restorative Justice, Los Angeles Public Defender
Resources:
Email Marcus
MHuntley@pubdef.lacounty.gov
Email Ricardo
Articles on Community Court
https://abc7.com/post/la-county-community-outreach-court-program-life-altering/14834255/
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267 | How The Destruction of DNA Evidence Might Keep An Innocent Person Behind Bars w/Erica Nichols Cook
Today, Hunter is joined by Erica Nichols Cook, an Iowa State Public Defender and Director of the Iowa State Public Defense Wrongful Conviction Unit. On today’s episode, we are discussing the case of Mr. Bill Beeman, a client of Erica’s. In this case you will hear about a shoddy investigation, Brady violations, ineffective assistance of counsel, and the destruction of evidence that would exonerate Mr. Beeman.
Guests: Erica Nichols Cook, Director Wrongful Conviction Unit, Iowa Public Defender
Resources:
Drake Law School Wrongful Conviction Clinic
https://www.drake.edu/law/clinics-centers/clinic/wrongfulconvictionsclinic/
Contact Erica
West Virginia Law Review Article Young Blood
https://researchrepository.wvu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6199&context=wvlr
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266 | With a Conservative Supreme Court, Do State Courts Offer the Best Path for a Better Criminal Legal System? w/Kathrina (Kasia) Szymborski Wolfkot
Today, Hunter is joined by Kathrina “Kasia” Szymborski Wolfkot from the Brennan Center for Justice. On today’s episode, Hunter and Kasia explore a rare area for hope on the show: State Courts. While much of the focus of teaching and discussion about our legal system starts and ends with the Supreme Court, state courts offer a path to meaningful, major changes to our criminal and constitutional legal systems.
Guests: Kathrina (Kasia) Szymborski Wolfkot, Senior Counsel, Brenan Center for Justice, Managing Editor of the State Court Report
Resources:
Commonweatth v Mattis
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ma-supreme-judicial-court/115703895.html
New Yorker on State Supreme Courts
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/06/10/can-state-supreme-courts-preserve-or-expand-rights
State Court Report
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265 | The Problems with Public Defense in Guam w/Aditi Goel
Today, Hunter is joined by the Sixth Amendment Center’s Deputy Director Aditi Goel. This time, Hunter and Aditi the Sixth Amendment Center’s newest report on the state of Public Defense on the island of Guam. Relative to Public Defense systems in the continental United States, Guam’s Public Defender system is in its infancy, but the problems are familiar. Lack of independence, lack of lawyers, and an Attorney General who thinks better Public Defense=more crime all create a system that is in desperate need of help. Fortunately, the Public Defender Community on the island are deeply committed to getting Guam’s Public Defender system to where it needs to be.
Guests: Aditi Goel, Deputy Director, Sixth Amendment Center
Resources:
Sixth Amendment Center Report on Guam
https://6ac.org/guam-report-finds-undue-judicial-influence-over-indigent-defense/
Guam AG comments
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264 | How Police Academies Foster a Culture of Police Violence w/Samantha Simon
Today, Hunter is joined by professor Samantha Simon, an Assistant Professor of Sociology at the University of Arizona. This episode is a deep dive into Professor Simon’s book, Before the Badge: How the Academy Training Shapes Police Violence. In it, Professor Simon embed herself into various police academy training programs to try and understand how police academies select, train, and prepare the next generation of police officers. Through her work, we gain an excellent insight into the challenges with changing the culture of violence that is so prevalent in American policing.
Guests: Samantha Simon PhD, Professor of Sociology, University of Arizona
Resources:
Professor Simon’s Faculty Page
https://sociology.arizona.edu/person/samantha-simon
Pick up a Copy of Before the Badge
https://nyupress.org/9781479813278/before-the-badge/
Coverage of SrA Roger Fortson
Donate to SrA Roger Fortson's GoFundMe
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263 | What Changes are Coming to Fix Maine's Public Defense Crisis? w/Jim Billings
Today, Hunter is joined by Jim Billings, the Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Public Defense Services. At the very start of the show, Hunter spoke with then Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services, Justin Andrus, to discuss the problems facing Maine Public Defense. As a reminder, Maine was the only state that relied 100% on contract lawyers and no full time public defense offices. Since then, the crisis has only worsened. There are hundreds of people currently without counsel, and while the long term outlook looks promising, the short to medium term outlook face serious problems.
Guests: Jim Billings, Executive Director, Maine Commission on Public Defense Services
Resources:
Maine Unrepresented Crisis
https://www.aclumaine.org/en/mainesgrowingcrisis
Man released after bail lowered due to lack of Public Defenders
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262 | How the Good Faith Exception is Eroding Our Right to Privacy w/Matthew Tokson
Today, Hunter is joined by University of Utah law Professor, Matthew Tokson, to discuss his most recent law review article The Reality of the Good Faith Exception. For those unfamiliar with it, the good faith exception is a way that the courts have side stepped unconstitutional actions by police and prosecutors. Specifically, if a cop executes a search, but it later turns out that it was based on an illegal warrant, that will not matter so long as the officer acted in good faith. How can we so easily excuse violations of the Constitution and what does it mean for our right to privacy? The answers to those questions and more are found on this episode!
Guests: Matthew Tokson, Professor of Law, University of Utah
Resources:
US v Leon
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/468/897/
The Reality of the Good Faith Exception Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4414248
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261 | The Problems with Public Defense in Florida and Georgia w/Radley Balko
Today, Hunter spoke once again with Radley Balko, a long-time investigative journalist, to discus his most recent reporting on public defense in Florida and Georgia. As has been discussed on the show previously, both states are struggling to meet the promises of Gideon. For Florida, the state has continued to move in a “tough on crime” direction and seems fine with leaving public defense ill equipped to handle the cases. In Georgia, the lack of independence leaves the system unable to properly advocate for its needs and the needs of their clients.
Guests:
Radley Balko, Investigative Journalist
Resources:
Read Radley’s Coverage Here
https://radleybalko.substack.com/p/the-states-of-indigent-defense-part-6eb
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
260 | How the Lack of Independence Weakens Federal Public Defense w/Melody Brannon
Today, Hunter spoke with the Chief Federal Public Defender for the District of Kansas to discuss independence, or the lack thereof, for federal public defenders. Unlike many state systems, the federal system is at the mercy of the federal judiciary. As a result of this judicial oversight, the federal public defenders can be hesitant to be as vocal and aggressive in their public advocacy. Over the past year, the hiring freeze for federal public defense demonstrated the pressing need to remove the federal public defenders out from the control of the bench.
Guests:
Melody Brannon, Chief Federal Public Defender, District of Kansas
Resources:
Annual Federal Defenders Reports
https://www.uscourts.gov/statistics-reports/defender-services-annual-report-2022
https://www.uscourts.gov/statistics-reports/defender-services-annual-report-2023
NACDL Coverage on Lack of Independence
https://www.nacdl.org/Article/August2015-InsideNACDLAFundamentalFlawint
2017 REPORT OF THE AD HOC COMMITTEE TO REVIEW THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
NACDL Testimony to Judicial Conference
https://www.nacdl.org/getattachment/84b11595-12a0-43d9-89ed-6af4fd732d84/gerry-morris-testimony.pdf
Hiring Freeze
Eval of Interim Recommendations from the Cardone Report
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
259 | How the Threat of a Strike got Minnesota's Public Defenders a 25% Raise w/Bob Kolstad and Veronica Surges
Today, Hunter spoke once again w/Bob Kolstad and for the first time Veronica Surges. Both are public defenders in the state of Minnesota, and they joined the show to discuss how the organized a strike authorization and how that threat of a strike helped them secure the largest pay raises in the history of Minnesota Public Defense.
Guests:
Bob Kolstad, Public Defender, Hennepin County, Minnesota
Veronica Surges, Public Defender, 6th District, Minnesota
Resources:
Contact Bob
Read About the Strike Threat and It’s Results
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
258 | What Actually Happened to Minnesota's Legal and Public Defender System After the Murder of George Floyd w/Bill Ward
Today, Hunter kicks off a week about Public Defense in Minnesota by speaking with the Chief Public Defender of the State, Bill Ward. Throughout this episode, Bill and Hunter discuss workloads, workload refusal, the recent budgetary victories he’s helped secure, and what is needed to ensure Public Defenders in Minnesota are not drowning in cases.
Guests:
Bill Ward, Chief Public Defender, Minnesota
Resources:
Minnesota Public Defender Website
https://www.pubdef.state.mn.us/
Minnesota Public Defender Twitter
Bill Ward Linkedin
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
257 | If Another Person Confesses to a Crime, Why Can't Jurors Hear that Evidence? w/Sharon Turlington
Today, Hunter is joined by long time Capital Defender, Sharon Turlington. Today, the two discuss cases that bookended Sharon’s career in Missouri. Both cases involved an in the weeds evidentiary rule that prohibits testimony that points to the guilt of a person who is not on trial. In one of her earliest cases, this rule kept the jury from hearing that a third party ADMITTED TO COMMITING THE CRIME IN QUESITON. In her last case, it kept the jury from hearing that FIVE people pointed to another person who had far more evidence pointing his direction. Together with the episodes from the past two days, this episode highlights the many ways the deck is stacked against criminal defendants.
Guests:
Sharon Turlington, Long Time Capital Public Defender, Missouri
Resources:
The Cases
State v Malik Nettles ED74494 (1999)
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/mo-court-of-appeals/1163320.html
State v Kylr Yust WD84633 (2023)
https://law.justia.com/cases/missouri/court-of-appeals/2023/wd84633.html
Contact Sharon
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
256 | The Fight to Free a Man Convicted Because of One Cop's Perjury w/Jason Gain
Today, Hunter is joined by Jason Gain, a West Virginia Post Conviction defense attorney. On this episode, the two continue the miniseries covering the dangers of convictions secured through uncorroborated evidence. This time, we discuss the recent victory that Jason secured for his client, Lamont Dees. After more than five years of incarceration, Mr. Dees was freed because his conviction was secured thanks to the help of one cop’s perjury, his attorneys ineffective assistance of counsel, and the willingness of prosecutors to pursue cases based on uncorroborated witness statements. As is so often the case, compare how easy it is to put an innocent person away and how difficult it is to free an innocent person.
Guests:
Jason Gain, Post Conviction Defense Attorney, West Virginia
Resources:
Read About Mr. Dees story
https://www.loshmountainlegal.com/post/dees-freed-habeas-win-in-west-virginia
Contact Jason
https://www.loshmountainlegal.com/contact
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
255 | The Dangers of a Conviction Based on the Testimony of One Person w/Eric Tindal
Today, Hunter is joined by Eric Tindal, a criminal defense attorney in Iowa. Today’s discussion focuses on the question, how much evidence does it take to convict someone. Specifically, Hunter and Eric discussed how a single uncorroborated testimony can be sufficient to secure a conviction. This episode kicks off a miniseries comparing what evidence is perfectly fine for prosecutors to rely on and what evidence is barred from even being heard when the defense wants to use it.
Guests:
Eric Tindal, Criminal Defense Attorney, Iowa
Resources:
Email Eric
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
254 | The Former Bronx Defender Campaigning to Bring Holistic Defense to Florida's 9th Judicial Circuit w/Lenora Easter
Today, Hunter is joined by Lenora Easter, a candidate for the Public Defender position in Orange and Osceola Counties. As a former Bronx Defender and member of Partners for Justice, Lenora understands the importance of a holistic defense practice. In her adopted home of Orange and Osceola Counties, Lenora sees an absence of that holistic practice and a loud voice in the community as a short coming of the current Public Defender practice. By becoming the elected Public Defender for the circuit, Lenora hopes to inject Public Defense with a fresh slate of ideas, programs, and energy needed to revitalize Public Defense.
Guests:
Lenora Easter, Candidate for Public Defender of the 9th Judicial District, Orange and Osceola County, FL
Resources:
Lenora Easter Website
Lenora Easter Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/lenoraeasterforpublicdefender/
Register to Vote Florida
https://registertovoteflorida.gov/home
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
253 | The ACLU Lawsuit Seeking to Radically Change Pennsylvania Public Defense w/Vic Walczak and Veronica Miller
Today, Hunter is joined by two amazing guests from the ACLU of Pennsylvania. Vic Walczak and Veronica Miller join the show to discuss the newest ACLU lawsuit being brought against Pennsylvania for its failure to adequately fund public defense. As we heard last week on the show, things in Pennsylvania Public Defense are failing because of Pennsylvania utterly failing to meet its obligations as a state to fund Public Defense, but why sue now? After all, under Governor Shapiro, the state has allocated its first money towards Public Defense ever. As you will here today, this lawsuit has been a long time coming, and hopefully, with it will come the types of overhaul necessary to ensure the promise of Gideon is fulfilled in Pennsylvania.
Guests:
Vic Walczak, Legal Director, ACLU of Pennsylvania
Veronica Miller, Senior Policy Counsel for Criminal Legal Reform, ACLU of Pennsylvania
Resources:
ACLU of PA
Twitter: https://x.com/aclupa
Website: https://www.aclupa.org/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aclupa
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/aclupa
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aclupa/
Read more about the case: https://www.aclupa.org/en/defenders
UPenn Study: https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/16737-significant-public-defender-shortage
2011 Report: http://jsg.legis.state.pa.us/resources/documents/ftp/publications/2011-265-indigent%20defense.pdf
Law Suit Against Luzerne County
https://www.aclupa.org/en/cases/kuren-v-luzerne-county-formerly-flora-v-luzerne-county
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
252 | The Rise, Fall, and Disbarment of Florida's Worst Chief Public Defender w/Andrew Pantazi
Today, Hunter is joined by journalist Andrew Pantazi to tell the story of Florida’s worst Chief Public Defender, Matt Shirk. For more than a decade, Andrew and his colleagues have been covering the story of Shirk who served two terms as Jacksonville’s elected public defender. During his time as the chief, Shirk oversaw a systemic practice of sexual harassment, drove out some his best attorneys and replaced them with his incompetent or unqualified friends, and attempted to get his juvenile client tried as an adult. Mercifully, Shirk was recently disbarred, but how did he come to this position, how did he stay there, why did it take so long for accountability to come, and ultimately, what does this say about public defense in Florida? All that and more in today’s episode!
Guests:
Andrew Pantazi, Editor, The Tributary, Jacksonville, Florida
Resources:
Tributary Website
Follow Andrew on Twitter
https://x.com/apantazi?lang=en
Coverage of Matt Shirk
https://jaxtrib.org/2024/03/14/former-jacksonville-public-defender-matt-shirk-disbarred/
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/politics/2013/08/25/stub-295/15818394007/
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
251 | What Can Save Pennsylvania Public Defense w/Sara Jacobson, Autumn Johnson, Samuel Encarnacion
Today, Hunter is joined by three Public Defenders from the state of Pennsylvania to get a feel for how Public Defense is fairing outside of the Philadelphia. Autumn Johnson, Sara Jacobson, and Samuel Encarnacion join the show to discuss what’s happening in Mercer County, Lancaster County, and around the state. Recently, Pennsylvania dedicated its first ever state level funding for Public Defense, but is it too little too late? With a new ACLU lawsuit having just dropped, it will be interesting how the state responds to the crisis of Public Defense in Pennsylvania?
Guests:
Sara Jacobson, Executive Director, Public Defender Association of Pennsylvania
Samuel Encarnacion, First Assistant Public Defender, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
Autumn Johnson, Chief Public Defender, Mercer County, Pennsylvania
Resources:
UPenn Public Defender Study
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/16737-significant-public-defender-shortage
PDAP
https://www.papublicdefenders.com/
Email Sara
Email Autumn
Email Sam
encarnas@lancastercountypa.gov
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
250 | Why did the Bronx Defender's Union Vote to go on Strike? w/Tyler Johnson, Marlene Marte, Katherine Azcona
Today, Hunter is joined by three members of the Bronx Defenders Union, Tyler Johnson, Katerine Azcona, and Marlene Marte. This episode comes on the heels of the Bronx Defenders Union authorizing a strike starting July 1. Over the past several months, the union and leadership have been unable to come to terms on a contract, and now, we could see the first strike in NY Public Defense since 1993. What is driving it? Why has the union reached this point? All that and more on today’s episode!
Guests:
Tyler Johnson, Legal Advocate, Civil Action Practice, Bronx Defenders
Marlene Marte, Immigration Legal Advocate, Bronx Defenders
Katherine Azcona, Staff Attorney, Family Defense, Bronx Defenders
Resources:
BxD Union Twitter
https://x.com/BxDUnion?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
BxD Union Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/bxdunion/?hl=en
If you'd like to support the Bronx Defender's Union while they strike, you can donate here
https://givebutter.com/communitystrikefund
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
249 | Angela Chang and Brooke Burns: How Ohio Public Defenders Push Back Against the Return of the "Super Predator" Myth
Today, Hunter is joined by Brooke Burns and Angela Chang, two Ohio Public Defenders working tirelessly to stop the return of the “Super Predator” myth. Over the past 40 years, the language has changed, but the outcome has remained the same: our communities have responded to real and perceived rises in crime by policing and incarcerating certain groups of young people. That practice is alive and well in Ohio, but with the work of people like Brooke and Angela, communities have a shot at creating accountability systems for kids that do not rely on the criminal legal system.
Guests:
Angela Chang, Director of Youth Defense Division, Hamilton County, Ohio
Brooke Burns, Managing Counsel, Youth Defense, Ohio Public Defender
Resources:
Ohio Office of the Public Defender
Hamilton County Public Defender
https://www.hamiltoncountypd.org/
https://www.instagram.com/hamcopubdef/?locale=kk-KZ
Coverage of the Killing of Tavion Koonce-Williams
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
248 | Scarlett Lewis: After Her Son was Murdered at Sandy Hook, One Mother's Fight to Reduce Violence by Choosing Love
Today, Hunter sat down for a powerful conversation with Scarlett Lewis. Scarlett’s son Jesse Lewis was one of the children murdered in the Sandy Hook school shooting. In the wake of this tragedy, Scarlett grappled with the grief, sadness, and anger that any person would face. Yet, Scarlett wanted to choose a different path than anger. So Scarlett founded the Jesse Lewis Choose Love Movement with the goal of teaching children social-emotional learning strategies to try and address violence at its roots.
Guests:
Scarlett Lewis, Founder, Jesse Lewis Choose Love Movement
Resources:
Choose Love Movement Socials
https://chooselovemovement.org/
https://www.facebook.com/JLChooseLove
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-jesse-lewis-choose-love-foundation/
https://www.instagram.com/chooselovemovement/
https://www.youtube.com/user/chooselovefoundation
Contact Scarlett
https://x.com/scarlettmlewis?lang=en
A GOP Texas school board member campaigned against schools indoctrinating kids. Then she read the curriculum.https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/15/texas-granbury-isd-school-board-courtney-gore/
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*Any Comments made by Myself are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the views of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
247 | Chesa Boudin: Lessons Learned from San Francisco's Progressive Prosecution Movement
Today, Hunter is joined by Chesa Boudin, the former District Attorney of San Francisco, to discuss his transition from public defender to prosecutor and the challenges he faced in trying to make systemic change. He shares examples of cases where he felt limited in his ability to create meaningful impact as a public defender, leading him to pursue a career in prosecution. Boudin also discusses the difficulties of implementing progressive policies within a prosecutor's office, including the resistance from the old guard and the limitations imposed by labor rules. They highlight how police departments and unions can undermine democracy at the local level and the challenges faced by progressive prosecutors. The discussion also touches on the difficulty of messaging and getting voters on board with criminal justice reform.
Guests:
Chesa Boudin, Executive Director, Criminal Law and Justice Center, Berkley Law
Resources:
Chesa’s Faculty Page
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/our-faculty/faculty-profiles/chesa-boudin/
Follow Chesa on Twitter
https://x.com/chesaboudin?lang=en
Eric Salwell on Prosecutors
Reports on Crime in California
https://www.cjcj.org/reports-publications?page=4
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
246 | Eric Whitcher: South Dakota's Small First Step to Statewide Public Defense
Today, Hunter sat down with Eric Whitcher, Director of the Pennington County Public Defender Office. Until recently, South Dakota and Pennsylvania shared the inglorious distinction of being the last two states in the country to provide 0 dollars towards public defense at the state level. Finally after years of advocacy, it appears South Dakota is about to change that. Eric joins the show to discuss the statewide commission that is primed to start a massive overhaul of the Public Defense delivery in the state.
Guests:
Eric Whitcher, Director, Pennington County Public Defense, South Dakota
Resources:
Pennington County Public Defender Website
Eric’s Linked in
https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-whitcher-07b9aa295?original_referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
HB 1057
https://sdlegislature.gov/Session/Bill/24943
Task Force Report
https://ujs.sd.gov/uploads/committees/Indigent/ILSTaskForceFinalReportRecommendations.pdf
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
245 | Travis Finck: On the Brink of a Crisis, What can Be Done to Save North Dakota Public Defense?
Today, Hunter sat down with once again with Travis Finck, the Executive Director of the North Dakota Commission on Legal Counsel for Indigents. This time, we discuss the precarious place that Public Defense is in the state. With major staffing shortfalls, the full time Public Defenders have massive vacancy rates, and with low contract pay, there are only so many private counsels willing to take on attorneys. What can be done to avert a crisis? Hopefully it starts with the legislatures recent realization that there just might be a crisis if they continue to do nothing.
Guests:
Travis Finck, Executive Director, North Dakota Commission on Legal Counsel for Indigents
Resources:
Link to Legislative Meeting with Video, Presentation and Report (video starts at 2:28)
https://ndlegis.gov/events/2024/03/07/judiciary-committee
News Coverage of the Issues
ND CLCI Website
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
244 | Grant Miller: The Utah Public Defender Campaigning to Bring Big Changes to the Utah State Legislature
Today, Hunter sat down with Grant Miller a Utah Public Defender running for Utah House District 24. Throughout the course of the show, Hunter and numerous guests have discussed the importance of getting the public defender experience into legislatures around the country. Part of the reason our laws are so skewed towards police and prosecutors is because police and prosecutors drastically outnumber the public defenders in the legislature. Grant aims to change that with a campaign that revolves around injecting the humanity that public defenders use in their daily fights for their clients.
Guests:
Grant Miller, Public Defender and Candidate for Utah House District 24, Salt Lake City
Resources:
Grants Contacts and Websites
https://www.grantmillerforhouse24.com/
https://www.instagram.com/grantistheguy/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/grant-miller-955700b0/
Secure a Ballot in Utah
https://vote.utah.gov/learn-about-voting-by-mail-and-absentee-voting/
Election Day Vote Centers Salt Lake City
https://slco.org/clerk/elections/voting-in-person/election-day-vote-centers/
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*As a reminder, any statements made on the show do not reflect the views or policies of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
243 | Duci Goncalves and Lael Chester: How Massachusetts is Re-imaging how the Criminal Legal System Treats Emerging Adults
Today, Hunter sat down with Duci Goncalves and Lael Chester to discuss how Massachusetts has started to reimagine how the criminal legal system treats emerging adults. As most of us remember, we didn’t always make the best choices as children, and that questionable decision making didn’t just improve the moment we turned 18. Yet in the criminal legal system, 18 is treated as a magic number where suddenly we assume you are a fully developed adult. With new brain science, we understand that 18 is not some magic number, and those between the ages of 18-25 still have a developing brain. To adhere to our understanding of modern brain science, Massachusetts is setting out on a new path to how the legal system handles emerging adult offenders.
Guests:
Duci Goncalves, Deputy Chief Counsel, Youth Advocacy Division, Committee For Public Counsel Services, Massachusetts
Lael Chester, Director, Emerging Adult Justice Project, Columbia University Justice Lab
Resources:
Lael’s Faculty Page
https://justicelab.columbia.edu/people/lael-chester
Massachusetts Changes LWOP for Emerging Adults
Commonwealth v Robinson
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ma-supreme-judicial-court/115703587.html
Commonwealth v Mattis
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ma-supreme-judicial-court/115703895.html
Emerging Adult Innovation with CPCS
a) Website page on the national EAJ Developmental Framework project: https://www.eajustice.org/ea-developmental-framework
b) Announcement of the launch of the project: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c6458c07788975dfd586d90/t/642b478230438b045ee02455/1680557954756/Columbia+Justice+Lab+Announcement+of+EAJ+Innovation+Sites+3.31.23.pdf
c) JJIE article: https://jjie.org/2023/05/11/1442839/
Emerging Adult Information
Raise the Age Campaign
https://www.raisetheagema.org/
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*Any Comments made by Myself are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the views of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
242 | Eve Primus: The Hollowing Out of Miranda Rights, and What we Can Do About it
Today, Hunter is joined once again by University of Michigan Professor of Law Eve Primus. So far, Eve and Hunter have discussed Public Defender Systems, Structures, and how Law Schools can do better at getting students interested in Public Defense. However, today’s conversation is focused on her upcoming law review article about how courts around the country have eroded the famous Miranda warnings and what we can do about it.
Guests:
Eve Primus, Professor of Law, University of Michigan
Resources:
The State[s] of Confession Law in a Post-Miranda World: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4742148
The Future of Confession Law: Toward Rules for the Voluntariness Test: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2540302
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*Any Comments made by Myself are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the views of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
241 | Lucian Dervan: Why do Innocent People Plead Guilty, and What Does it Mean for Our Plea Bargaining System
Today, Hunter is joined Lucian Dervan, Professor of Law and Director of Criminal Justice Studies at Belmont College and Founding Director of the Plea Bargaining Institute. For more than a decade, Lucian has been at the forefront of uncovering the troubling issues with America’s plea deal driven criminal legal system. Lucian founded the Plea Bargaining Institute in order to bring together the latest and greatest research and caselaw on plea bargaining to help people challenge our plea bargaining system.
Guests:
Lucian Dervan, Professor of Law and Director of Criminal Justice Studies, Belmont College of Law, Founding Director of the Plea Bargaining Institute
Resources:
Plea Bargaining Institute
https://pleabargaininginstitute.com/
Brady v US
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/397/742/
Lucian’s Faculty Page
https://www.belmont.edu/profiles/lucian-dervan/
14 Principles of Plea Bargaining
Plea Bargaining Study
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=jclc
Follow Lucian
https://x.com/luciandervan?lang=en
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*Any Comments made by Myself are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the views of the Colorao Office of the State Public Defender*
240 | Adrienne Johnson: Can Gwinnett County Muster the Political Will to Solve their Public Defender Problems
Today, Hunter is joined by another amazing guest from the Wren Collective, Adrienne Johnson. Today’s conversation is about their report on Public Defense in Gwinnet County, Georgia. While there is a state wide Public Defender in Georgia, Gwinnet County has been able to maintain its independence from the state system. If Public Defender’s in Gwinnett County want to maintain that independence, it is essential that they address some of the glaring problems in Public Defense that this report exposed.
Guests:
Adrienne Johnson, Senior Counsel, Wren Collective
Resources:
Read the Report Here
https://www.wrencollective.org/_files/ugd/8fe8f0_ff1ad77fe24b47db9bb6fef98d6aad47.pdf
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*Any Comments made by Myself are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the views of the Colorado Office of the State Public Defender*
239 | Elisabeth Pollock and Devshi Mehrotra: How the Champaign IL Public Defenders used A.I. to Revive their Office
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Justice Text Co-Founder Devshi Mehrotra to discuss how Justice Text is helping Public Defender Office’s enter the digital era. This time, Devshi brought Elisabeth Pollock, Chief of the Champaign IL Public Defender Office, to talk about the serious digital overhaul Elisabeth undertook once she took charge of the office. Coming from the federal system, Elisabeth was used to a fully digital system, so it came as quiet a shock when Elisabeth realized that her new office in Champaign County was a completely paper-based system. Thankfully with the help of Justice Text, Elisabeth was able to quickly digitize the office and finally start analysing the countless hours of body camera generated by their cases.
Guests:
Elisabeth Pollock, Chief Public Defender, Champaign County, Illinois
Devshi Mehrotra, Co-Founder, Justice Text
Resources:
Justice Text
Chicago Appleseed Fair Trial
https://www.chicagoappleseed.org/
Elisabeth Contact
https://www.linkedin.com/in/elisabeth-pollock-38377110/
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*Any Comments made by Myself are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the views of the Colorao Office of the State Public Defender*
238 | Patricia Warth: The Budget Moves Threatening Vital New York Public Defender Services
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Patricia Warth, Director of the NY Office of Indigent Legal Services. This time, Hunter and Patricia discuss the in the weeds budget moves that are threatening vital programs in New York Public Defense. Specifically, they talk about the failing family court system and how a sweep up of funds may endanger an already struggling practice.
Guests:
Patricia Warth, Director, New York Office of Indigent Legal Services
Resources:
Coverage of the Fund Sweep Up
https://www.nylpi.org/resource/ilsf-sweep-organization-sign-on-letter-3-21-24/
https://nysba.org/nysba-supports-funding-of-the-indigent-legal-services-fund/
ILS Website
https://www.ils.ny.gov/node/7/ils-office
Email Patricia
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237 | Galit Lipa: The Fight to Get California to View Public Defense as a Public Good and not a Private Luxury
Today, Hunter is joined by the newest State Public Defender of California, Galit Lipa. As discussed on previous episodes, California has a county based public defender system. As such, Galit and her office sit in a limited role to help train public defenders around the state. Following a law suit and several reports highlighting the failings of public defense in California, Galit and her team could prove to be a pivotal voice in rethinking the delivery of California public defense.
Guests:
Galit Lipa, State Public Defender, California Office of the State Public Defender
Resources:
Contact Galit
https://www.linkedin.com/in/galit-lipa/
OSPD
https://www.ospd.ca.gov/ospd-sharepoint-pages/
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236 | Molly Gilbert and Jason Schwarz: How Washington is Implementing Public Defender Workload Standards
Today, Hunter is joined by Molly Gilbert and Jason Schwarz to discuss the plan to implement Public Defender workload standards across the state of Washington. Despite not being a centralized Public Defender system, the Public Defenders of Washington, spurred by the State Supreme Court, figured out how to work with the state bar to get workload standards. As they sit on the verge of getting enforceable standards approved by the State Supreme Court, Hunter, Molly, and Jason explore how these workload standards came to be and what other states can learn from this process.
Guests:
Molly Gilbert, Investigator and Union President, Department of Public Defense, King County Washington
Jason Schwarz, Director, Snohomish County, Washington
Resources:
News Coverage of New Workload Standards
https://www.wsba.org/connect-serve/committees-boards-other-groups/council-public-defense
Email Jason
Jason.Schwarz@co.snohomish.wa.us
Email Molly
WSBA Meeting
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235 | Taylor Herbert: The Many Ways Oregon's Civil Commitment System Fails so Many
Today, Hunter is joined by Taylor Herbert, a Public Defender in Lan County Oregon to discuss civil commitment. As is often talked about on the show, the divide between the civil and criminal legal system is far smaller than many are willing to admit. Civil commitment is the process by which a person can be confined in a mental health facility against their will. Unlike a criminal process, which does not allow for you to be deprived of liberty unless you’ve been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, civil commitment allows for a deprivation of liberty after only reaching clear and convincing evidentiary standard. Why is this an issue? Why do we allow? What are the failings of civil commitment in Oregon? All that and more on this episode!
Guests:
Taylor Herbert, Staff Attorney, Mental Health Division, Public Defender Services of Lane County, Oregon
Resources:
ORS 426-427
https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors426.html
Email Taylor
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234 | Stephen Hanlon: Case Withdrawals, Federal Funding, and the Five Year Plan to Fix Public Defense in Oregon
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Public Interest lawyer Stephen Hanlon. This time, Hunter and Stephen are breaking down the five year plan that he hopes will fix Public Defense in Oregon. While it is surely an ambitious plan, this plan gives urges public defenders to do all that they can to force the powers that be to take the crisis seriously: case withdrawals.
Guests:
Stephen Hanlon, Public Interest Lawyer
Resources:
Oregon Report 5 Year Plan
https://www.opb.org/article/2024/03/21/oregon-public-defense-report-more-attorneys/
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233 | Lee Wachocki: With Almost 3k People Unrepresented, Why is Oregon adding More Cases to the Public Defender Crisis
Today, Hunter is once again joined by Lee Wachocki, a Public Defender and union leader in Portland, Oregon. As the Public Defender crisis continues in the state, this week is about figuring out how the state is responding. At the front line level, Lee reveals that little has functionally changed at his level to demonstrate the state is close to solving the problem. In fact, with Oregon recriminalizing drug possession, the state appears primed to super charge the issue.
Guests:
Lee Wachocki, Public Defender, Multnomah County
Resources:
Multnomah County DA Debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wehZ548c-OY
DA Schmidt Endorsing Recriminalization
Mike Schmidt Endorses Proposal to Recriminalize Hard Drugs (wweek.com)
Bad Reporting on Public Defender Caseload
Impacts of Recriminalization
https://www.axios.com/local/portland/2024/03/19/public-defender-crisis-recriminalization-oregon
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232 | Robin Bernstein: The New York Prison that Started our For Profit Prison Industry
Today, Hunter is joined Professor Robin Bernstein to discuss her newest book, Freeman's Challenge: The Murder that Shook America's Original Prison for Profit. When many of us think of the for-profit prisons, we think of the post slavery south at places like Parchman. However, that is not where the story started. Today, Robin joins the show to discuss Auburn State Prison and what we can learn from the history of for profit prisons.
Guests:
Robin Bernstein, Dillon Professor of American History and Professor of African and African American Studies and of Studies of Women, Gender, & Sexuality, Harvard University
Resources:
Order the Book Here
https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/F/bo213968137.html
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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231 | Dorsey Nunn: From Banning the Box to Restoring the Right to Vote, One Man's Struggle for the Rights of the Current and Formerly Incarcerated
Today, Hunter is joined by the powerful Dorsey Nunn. At 19, Dorsey was given a life sentence. Over the next 11 years, Dorsey would be exposed to violence, abuse, and the political education that would awaken in him a lifelong desire to fight our prison system. Today, Hunter talks with Dorsey about his new book, What Kind of Bird Can’t Fly to discuss his lifetime of organizing for the rights of the current and formerly incarcerated.
Guests:
Dorsey Nunn, Executive Director Legal Services for Prisoners with Children, Co-Founder All of Us or None, Co-Founder Formerly Incarcerated Convicted People and Family Movement
Resources:
Order the Book Here
https://www.amazon.com/What-Kind-Bird-Cant-Fly/dp/1597146323
Legal Services for Prisoners with Children
https://prisonerswithchildren.org/staff-and-board/
All of Us or None
https://prisonerswithchildren.org/about-aouon/
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230: The Voices of Victims and Survivors that Alabama Ignores and Neglects w/Leah Nelson and Callie Greer
Today, Hunter is joined once again by Leah Nelson of Alabama Appleseed. This time, they are joined by Callie Greer, a Community Navigator at Appleseed, to discuss Appleseed’s Afterward. This powerful report sought out to hear from victims and survivors of violence. As is often said on the show, the criminal legal system does a poor job of providing for the needs of all survivors of violence. In fact, the system often perpetuates the harm of those who need help following the tragic events in their life. By going to communities across Alabama, Appleseed hoped to capture the voice of so many people who want need more than just a criminal punishment to be made whole.
Guests:
Leah Nelson, Research Director, Alabama Appleseed
Callie Greer, Community Navigator, Alabama Appleseed
Resources:
Read Afterward Here
https://alabamaappleseed.org/afterward/
Alabama Appleseed
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229: From a 25% Vacancy Rate to Nearly Zero, How the Montana Public Defender System Came Back from the Brink w/Brett Schandelson
Today, Hunter is once again joined by Brett Schandelson, the Director of the Montana Office of the State Public Defender. Last time he was one, we discussed his efforts to make Public Defense policy in Montana driven by data. Today, we discuss how those efforts have drastically turned the state system around. Specifically, Brett details how doing a better job of tracking cases and sticking to a workload standard has reduced turnover and helped retain Public Defenders throughout the state.
Guests:
Brett Schandelson, Director, Montana Office of the State Public Defender
Resources:
Office of the State Public Defender
https://publicdefender.mt.gov/
Agenda-DIBC-12-13-2023.pdf (mt.gov) 61080-OPD-QFR-Dec2023.pdf (mt.gov) Quick video on the OPD Quarterly Update (at meeting start)
Brett’s presentation 12/13/23 IBC OPD Section
Materials https://leg.mt.gov/content/Publications/fiscal/2025-Biennium/Section-D/Interim/OPD-Narrative-Response.pdf https://leg.mt.gov/content/Publications/fiscal/2025-Biennium/Section-D/Interim/OPD-Fees-Assessed-and-Paid.pdf
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228: Why is this Vitally Important Forensic Science so Rarely Used by Defense Attorneys and the Legal System? w/Dr. Shameka Stewart
Today, Hunter sat down with Dr. Shameka Stewart, a juvenile forensic speech language pathologist. While speech language pathologists have long been around, Dr. Stewart is the first person to take the field and apply it to juvenile forensics. The promise of the field was on display as she served as an expert witness for the defense team during the trial of Nikolas Cruz. For those in the criminal defense community, this under utilized forensic science could prove to be one of the most important pieces of evidence against guilt or during mitigation.
Guests:
Dr. Shameka Stewart, Juvenile Forensic Speech Language Pathologist
Resources:
Contact Dr. Stewart
https://www.juvforensicslp.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-stewart-032b5a96
https://www.instagram.com/drjuvenile_forensicslp/
https://twitter.com/drsstanford1
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227: *AUDIO FIXED* Where is the Ethical Limit for Zealous Criminal Defense Advocacy? w/Martín Sabelli
Today, Hunter is once again joined by former NACDL President, Martin Sabelli. This time, Hunte and Martin are discussing a memo he put out while President about the Ahmaud Arbery murder trial. In that trial, Martin felt that the defense counsel improperly used racism as a tactic in their defense. Martin put out the memo because he felt that those in the criminal defense community, those who fight against systems of racism aught not use the tools of the very system that actively incarcerates so many of their clients. As such, today’s episode is all about figuring out where the line is between individual advocacy and fighting systems of oppression.
Guests:
Martín Sabelli, Former President, National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
Resources:
Link to the Memo
Follow Martin on Twitter
https://twitter.com/martin_sabelli?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
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226: Why Isn't a Cop Who was Indicted for Shooting an Unarmed Person Being Prosecuted? w/Andrew Darling
Last summer, Hunter spoke with Central Florida criminal defense attorney Andrew Darling to discuss Governor DeSantis removing State Attorney Monique Worrell from office. At the time, Andrew and Hunter expressed their concerns that the primary reason for the removal was due to Worrell’s willingness to prosecute cops. Today, Andrew is back to share how those fears have come to reality. In 2020, Andrew’s client was shot by a cop. Originally, Worrell pursued the case, but with her gone, it took the new State Attorney just under 9 months to drop the case, but for a reason that you have to hear to believe.
Guests:
Andrew Darling, Criminal Defense Attorney, Central Florida
Resources:
Gov DeSantis’ Executive Order Removing State Attorney Monique Worrell
Twitter Thread Explaining the Falsities in Gov DeSantis’ Claims
https://twitter.com/LutherEvers/status/1689672379776073728
Warren v. DeSantis
https://casetext.com/case/warren-v-desantis-1
Follow Andrew on
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MrDarling4
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mrdarling4/
Darling Law: https://darlinglaw.com/
Orange County Court of Clerks 2023CF003924-A-O
https://www.myorangeclerk.com/
Indictment of Orange County Deputy Bruce Stolk
Prosecution Memo
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CV_0RjsmVlqpdEvaZd8gNIJR8i0fhrVJ?usp=sharing
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@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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225: Why Are People Being Found Not Guilty but Still Going to Prison? w/Andrea Jaeger
Imagine for a moment, you have been accused of several crimes. At trial, you are found not guilty on all the charges except for one. Let’s say that this is least serious of all your charges. While you wish you had been acquitted on all charges, 5/6 is pretty good. You anticipate a minor sentence, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel….but then you get to sentencing, and the judge starts saying your sentence is going to be just as severe as it would have if you had been found guilty of everything. How is it possible to get found not guilty but punished anyway? Today, Hunter spoke with criminal defense attorney Andrea Jaeger to discuss how the federal legal system allows for acquitted conduct sentencing.
Guests:
Andrea Jaeger, Criminal Defense Attorney, Iowa
Resources:
U.S. v Watts
https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-watts
Coverage
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB11037
https://www.ussc.gov/about/news/press-releases/december-14-2023
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224: How the DVSJA Gave Two Survivors of Domestic Violence a Second Chance w/Assia Serrano and Trinity Copeland
Today, Hunter concludes the three-part series on criminalized domestic violence survivors by speaking with two women who survived, endured years of incarceration, and utilized the DVSJA to get a second chance at life. Trinity Copeland was sentenced to 25 years to life for 2nd degree murder and resentenced to time served and released in March 2023 under the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act (DVSJA), after serving approximately 11 years. She is currently a full-time college student majoring in Chinese Studies with a double minor in Spanish and French.
Assia Serrano was sentenced to 18 years to life for felony murder and was resentenced and released in April 2021 under the DVSJA, after serving 17 years. Shortly after, she was deported to Panama where she currently resides. Assia is a member of the Survivors Justice Project Advisory Group and an Osborne Speakers Bureau member who uses her personal experiences to advocate for criminal justice reform. She is a proud mother of two teenagers and a fierce advocate for her own and other children who have experienced parental incarceration.
Through their stories, Hunter hopes for people to understand what our legal system must change to stop perpetuating cycles of harm.
Guests:
Assia Serano, Survivors Justice Project Advisory Group and Osborne Speakers Bureau
Trinity Copeland, Full Time College Student
Resources:
NYILS Website
Survivors Justice Project
Background Material on the DVSJA
· Video: Background on DVSJA passage (somewhat dated)
· Some Legislative History (attached):
o 2017 sponsor memo
o Opposition letter by District Attorney Association of the State of New York
o NY Correctional Association response to DA opposition letter
· SJP DVSJA Resource Guide – we wrote this with incarcerated survivors/applicants as the primary audience
· SJP/Sentencing Project Report
· Abby Van Buren article on temporal nexus problem
· Favorable decisions:
o Brenda WW decision (“mutually abusive” relationship did not foreclose DVSJA relief; abuse history must be considered cumulatively; considered applicant’s extensive criminal history in context of her substance abuse, which was related to victimization)
o Patrice Smith decision (court must look at the “full picture” and contemplate cumulative impact of abuse)
o Liz L. decision (the fact that DV history was “factored in” to previous man 1 plea bargain did not make DVSJA resentencing inappropriate)
· Not so favorable:
o People v. Williams (abuse or abusive relationship must be “ongoing” at the time of the offense)
o People v. Fisher (adopting Williams’ temporal holding in case where trans-identifying young person had assaulted her parents, and no expert was called to attempt to explain connection between earlier physical abuse and offense)
o People v. B.N. (many bad holdings/antiquated approach to DV and trauma)
· People v. Addimando – a study in contrasts (note that Nicole Addimando was finally released from prison last week):
o Trial court decision (denying DVSJA relief at initial sentencing for murder 2 in a case with extensively documented abuse; sentencing Nicole Addimando to 19-to-life)
o Appellate decision (reversing and resentencing her to 7.5 years)
· Critique of the DVSJA by Survived & Punished
Some very optional reading, but good-to-know-about resources created by the DVSJA Statewide Defender Task Force:
· Best Practices Manual for DVSJA Investigations
· Guide to Working with Experts in DVSJA cases
· Introduction Guide to Coercive Control for the DVSJA Attorney
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@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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223: The New York Law Giving a Second Chance to Criminalized Domestic Violence Survivors w/Elizabeth Isaacs
Today, Hunter continues the three-part series on criminalized domestic violence survivors by speaking with Elizabeth Isaacs, an appellate attorney with New York’s Office of Indigent Legal Services. Specifically, the two discuss the Domestic Violence Survivor’s Justice Act, a New York law designed to give post-relief to those whose incarceration is related to their victimization. While certainly not a perfect bill, it is an extremely important and necessary step to understand that people are not simply victims or perpetrators, and that we can attain justice while also acknowledging the humanity of those who did wrong.
Guests:
Elizabeth Isaacs, Appellate Attorney, NY Office of Indigent Legal Services
Resources:
NYILS Website
Survivors Justice Project
Background Material on the DVSJA
· Video: Background on DVSJA passage (somewhat dated)
· Some Legislative History (attached):
o 2017 sponsor memo
o Opposition letter by District Attorney Association of the State of New York
o NY Correctional Association response to DA opposition letter
· SJP DVSJA Resource Guide – we wrote this with incarcerated survivors/applicants as the primary audience
· SJP/Sentencing Project Report
· Abby Van Buren article on temporal nexus problem
· Favorable decisions:
o Brenda WW decision (“mutually abusive” relationship did not foreclose DVSJA relief; abuse history must be considered cumulatively; considered applicant’s extensive criminal history in context of her substance abuse, which was related to victimization)
o Patrice Smith decision (court must look at the “full picture” and contemplate cumulative impact of abuse)
o Liz L. decision (the fact that DV history was “factored in” to previous man 1 plea bargain did not make DVSJA resentencing inappropriate)
· Not so favorable:
o People v. Williams (abuse or abusive relationship must be “ongoing” at the time of the offense)
o People v. Fisher (adopting Williams’ temporal holding in case where trans-identifying young person had assaulted her parents, and no expert was called to attempt to explain connection between earlier physical abuse and offense)
o People v. B.N. (many bad holdings/antiquated approach to DV and trauma)
· People v. Addimando – a study in contrasts (note that Nicole Addimando was finally released from prison last week):
o Trial court decision (denying DVSJA relief at initial sentencing for murder 2 in a case with extensively documented abuse; sentencing Nicole Addimando to 19-to-life)
o Appellate decision (reversing and resentencing her to 7.5 years)
· Critique of the DVSJA by Survived & Punished
Some very optional reading, but good-to-know-about resources created by the DVSJA Statewide Defender Task Force:
· Best Practices Manual for DVSJA Investigations
· Guide to Working with Experts in DVSJA cases
· Introduction Guide to Coercive Control for the DVSJA Attorney
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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www.patreon.com/PublicDefenselessPodcast
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222: The Case for Decriminalizing Domestic Violence w/Leigh Goodmark
Today, Hunter starts on part one of a three-part series on criminalized survivors of domestic violence. Kicking off this miniseries is Professor Leigh Goodmark. A former Public Defender herself, Leigh brings multiple decades of experience working with and writing about criminalized domestic violence survivors. On today’s episode, Hunter and Leigh primarily discuss her journey to abolition, decriminalization, and the stories/data that made her conclude that the carceral system is not the appropriate response for domestic violence.
Guests:
Leigh Goodmark, Professor of Law and Director of Gender Prison and Trauma Clinic, University of Maryland School of Law.
Resources:
Get a Copy of Imperfect Victims
https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520391123/imperfect-victims
Get a Copy of Decriminalizing domestic Violence
https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520295575/decriminalizing-domestic-violence
Contact Leigh
https://www.law.umaryland.edu/faculty--research/directory/profile/index.php?id=982
Compelled to Crime
https://www.amazon.com/Compelled-Crime-Gender-Entrapment-Battered/dp/0415911451
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@PDefenselessPod
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221: ALAA's Ceasefire Resolution and the Fallout From it: Part II w/Sophia Gurulé and Pooja Patel
Today, Hunter is joined by Sophia Gurulé (immigration Public Defender at the Bronx Defender) and Pooja Patel (staff attorney at CAMBA Legal Services) to continue our discussion on ALAA's resolution calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. In particular, today's episode offers us even more insight into how the resolution came about, the steps taken by those who opposed it to shut it down, and why ALAA members felt it was so vital to pass the resolution.
Guests:
Sophia Gurulé, Staff Attorney and ALAA Member, Bronx Defenders
Pooja Patel, Staff Attorney and ALAA Member, CAMBA legal services
Resources:
ALAA 2325 Resolution Calling for a Ceasefire in Gaza, an End to the Israeli Occupation of Palestine, and Support for Workers’ Political Speech
Bronx Defenders Union Statement
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Hzyy_ufSJ9h8GjiYdg4eRKdGIUyikRE/view
A Statement by Jewish Members of the Association of Legal Aid Attorneys-UAW Local 2325
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MJDXr9nANDCtcV76fxYNwNsxNbru3MYu5hLkCC3KrLY/edit
CAMBA Resolution
New York Legal Aid Society Response
Bronx Defenders Response
https://www.bronxdefenders.org/the-bronx-defenders-response-to-its-unions-october-20-statement/
News Coverage of the Resolution
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/17/public-defender-gaza-legal-aid-bronx-defenders/
https://nypost.com/2023/11/16/metro/legal-aid-society-denounces-unions-antisemitic-resolution/
https://inthesetimes.com/article/palestine-resolution-unions-court-blocked
https://www.thefp.com/p/alaa-legal-aid-attorneys-antisemitism-congress
https://edworkforce.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=410256
ALAA 2325 History of Anti War Votes and Comments
https://alaa2325.wordpress.com/2003/04/14/alaa-antiwar-vote/
https://labornotes.org/blogs/2021/08/bottom-labor-solidarity-palestine-growing
https://laborforpalestine.net/2023/10/26/sf-public-defender-staff-in-solidarity-with-palestine/
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@PDefenselessPod
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220: ALAA's Ceasefire Resolution and the Fallout From it: Part I w/Michael Letwin
Today, Hunter is joined by Michael Letwin, former President of ALAA 2325 and longtime Public Defender at the New York Legal Aid Society. Today’s episode is part one of the two-part coverage of the ALAA 2325 Ceasefire in Gaza resolution. To understand the resolution fully requires us to fully understand the patterns, practices, and history of ALAA 2325 when it comes to speaking about international events. With this context in mind, hopefully those asking why ALAA 2325 would choose to issue a ceasefire resolution can understand how that is directly in line with their organizational ethics. Finally, Hunter makes his pitch for why Public Defender organizations should be speaking out about international affairs.
Guests:
Michael Letwin, Former President ALAA 2325 and long time Public Defender
Resources:
ALAA 2325 Resolution Calling for a Ceasefire in Gaza, an End to the Israeli Occupation of Palestine, and Support for Workers’ Political Speech
Bronx Defenders Union Statement
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Hzyy_ufSJ9h8GjiYdg4eRKdGIUyikRE/view
A Statement by Jewish Members of the Association of Legal Aid Attorneys-UAW Local 2325
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MJDXr9nANDCtcV76fxYNwNsxNbru3MYu5hLkCC3KrLY/edit
New York Legal Aid Society Response
Bronx Defenders Response
https://www.bronxdefenders.org/the-bronx-defenders-response-to-its-unions-october-20-statement/
News Coverage of the Resolution
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/17/public-defender-gaza-legal-aid-bronx-defenders/
https://nypost.com/2023/11/16/metro/legal-aid-society-denounces-unions-antisemitic-resolution/
https://inthesetimes.com/article/palestine-resolution-unions-court-blocked
https://www.thefp.com/p/alaa-legal-aid-attorneys-antisemitism-congress
https://edworkforce.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=410256
ALAA 2325 History of Anti War Votes and Comments
https://alaa2325.wordpress.com/2003/04/14/alaa-antiwar-vote/
https://labornotes.org/blogs/2021/08/bottom-labor-solidarity-palestine-growing
https://laborforpalestine.net/2023/10/26/sf-public-defender-staff-in-solidarity-with-palestine/
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@PDefenselessPod
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RE-RELEASE: How Moral Injury, Stress, and Trauma Impact Public Defense with Jenny Andrews
Today is a re-release of my conversation with Jenny Andrews. It comes as a right before two episodes covering the ceasefire resolution put out by the UAW ALAA 2325 union that represents Public Defenders and Legal Aid Workers at the New York Legal Aid Society, the Bronx Defenders, Camba Legal Services, and much more.
Jenny Andrews is the Director of Training for California’s Indigent Defense Improvement Division. She’s here today to teach you what public defense is truly like from the defender’s side. Public defenders are often trapped between a rock and a hard place because they want to provide equal representation access, yet are expected to work too many hours for not enough pay. Because of this, “martyr complex” is prevalent in this field. You’ll learn that public defense is an area of service, but that this often comes at the expense of the defender’s mental health. Jenny will walk you through how she’s helping implement self-care practices into nationwide and why self-care is vital to providing zealous representation! Throughout this episode, remember that ultimately, it is the client who suffers when the public defender suffers in silence
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Jenny’s background and how she got started in public defense. [7:50]
Why Jenny burnt out and left the industry. [14:18]
Moral injury. [21:58]
Self-care in public defense. [26:32]
Secondary trauma. [33:36]
How Jenny has been building a culture of self-care. [42:50]
How individual offices are promoting self-care. [48:28]
The line between service and self-care. [53:14]
Guest:
Jenny Andrews, Director of Training, Indigent Defense Improvement Division, Office of the State Public Defender, California
Resources:
Be Sustained
Body Keeps the Score
https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PDefenselessPod
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219: The Future Looks Bright for New Jersey Public Defense w/Jennifer Sellitti
Today, Hunter is joined by the newest Chief Public Defender of the State of New Jersey, Jennifer Sellitti. Drawing on her background in public relations, Jennifer has exciting plans for the future of Public Defense in the state. As the new leader, Jennifer hopes she will be able to capitalize on a legislature and governor that appear eager to continue reimagining what a criminal legal system can and should look like.
Guests:
Jennifer Sellitti, The Public Defender, New Jersey Office of the Public Defender
Resources:
Follow Jennifer on Twitter
https://twitter.com/j_sellitti?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
N.J.’s 1,200 public defenders have a new leader. You’ll be hearing from her, she promises.
New Jersey Office of the Public Defender
https://twitter.com/opd_nj?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
https://www.facebook.com/njopd/
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218: The Cuyahoga County Youth Public Defenders Want More Cases, So Why Aren't They Getting Them? w/Nikki Baszynski
Today, Hunter is once again joined by an amazing former Public Defender from the Wren Collective to discuss their report about youth representation in Cuyahoga County Ohio. Nikki Baszynski joins Hunter today to talk about, perhaps for the first time on the shoe, a Public Defender office that feels they don’t have enough cases! Unlike most of the major metropolitan areas in Ohio, juvenile public defense is largely provided by contract counsel and not the Public Defender office. Unfortunately, this is happening despite evidence that the Public Defender office is consistently getting better outcomes for their clients and doing so at a cheaper cost to the county.
Guests:
Nikki Baszyinski, Principal and Former Public Defender, The Wren Collective
Resources:
Wren Collective Report on Cuyahoga County
https://www.wrencollective.org/_files/ugd/8fe8f0_1079cdb763ae4fd4b86cffa5a5f3631e.pdf
Reporting from Signal
Follow the Wren Collective on Twitter
https://twitter.com/wrencollective
Ohio Public Defender Commission
Listen to the Comitte Meeting Here!
https://opd.ohio.gov/about-opd/commission/commission-meetings
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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217: Securing Life over Death in the Aurora Theater Shooting Case w/Doug Wilson
Today, Hunter sat down once again with the former Chief Public Defender of Colorado, Doug Wilson. This time, Doug and Hunter discuss the Aurora Theater Shooting case. Just like the episode about the Parkland shooting, today’s episode is designed to help people understand how such a heinous crime could end in a life over death sentence. In examining these cases, hopefully people can understand the power of mitigating evidence and a well- funded criminal defense team can have on a criminal case.
Guests:
Doug Wilson, Former Chief Public Defender of the State of Colorado
Resources:
THE “EVIL” DEFENDANT AND THE “HOLDOUT” JUROR: UNPACKING THE MYTHS OF THE AURORA THEATER SHOOTING CASE AS WE PONDER THE FUTURE OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IN COLORADO
https://www.coloradodefenders.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Nelson-FINAL-1.pdf
Aurora theater shooting trial: DA George Brauchler scolded over tweet
https://sentinelcolorado.com/metro/theater-shooting-trial-da-brauchler-scolded-tweet/
A Record 9,000 People Were Called For Jury Duty In The Aurora Theater Shooting Trial
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216: How a Holistic Defense Team Filled Critical Gaps in D.C.'s Youth Legal System w/Penelope Spain
While working as with the DC Public Defender Services, today’s guest realized there was a critical lack of attorneys assisting youth after they had been sentenced. Today, Hunter spoke with Penelope Spain, CEO and Co-Founder of Open City Advocates, to discuss how her organization hopes to keep kids from falling through the cracks simply because they do not have an attorney post-conviction.
Guests:
Penelope Spain, CEO and Co-Founder, Open City Advocates
Resources:
Open City Advocates on
Website
https://www.opencityadvocates.org/
https://twitter.com/opencityadv?lang=en
https://www.facebook.com/opencityadvocates/
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215: As States Criminalize LGBTQ+ People, How can Lawyers Fight Back? w/Richard Saenz
In just this past year, there have been over 400 anti-LGBTQ+ bills proposed in state houses around the country. Many have no hope of passing, but some will end up creating new was to criminalize and ostracize already vulnerable members of the LGBTQ+ community. Joining Hunter today to talk about these laws and their impacts is Richard Saenz from Lambda Legal. Throughout this conversation, Richard and Hunter explore the many ways our legal system disregards the unique needs of LGBTQ+ folks being processed through it. Most importantly though, Richard lays out key ways that the legal community can help to stop the legal onslaught against the LGBTQ+ community.
Guests:
Richard Saenz, Senior Attorney and Criminal Legal System Strategist, Lambda Legal
Resources:
Lambda Legal
Protected and Served
Sam Alito Statement
https://newrepublic.com/post/179149/supreme-court-samuel-alito-traditional-people-bigots-lgbtq
Lambda Legal Social Media
https://twitter.com/lambdalegal?lang=en
https://www.instagram.com/lambdalegal/?hl=en
https://www.facebook.com/lambdalegal/
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214: Even if You're Found Not Guilty, Iowa Makes You Pay for the Full Cost of Your Public Defender w/Alex Kornya
“If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided to you at no cost.” Ask the average American, and they will tell you that Public Defenders are free…. Unless of course you live in most states where they charge you something for getting a Public Defender. If you live in Iowa, this means you could pay up to the entire cost of your representation even if you are found not guilty or the charges are dropped. Joining Hunter today is Alex Kornya from Iowa Legal Aid to discuss the history, legality, and future of the fines and fees trapping thousands of Iowans in perpetual debt.
Guests:
Alex Kornya, Litigation Director and General Counsel, Iowa Legal Aid
Resources:
Marshall Project Reporting
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2024/02/12/miranda-rights-indigent-defense-iowa
Iowa Legal Aid
Cases
Woodbury County v Anderson
https://casetext.com/case/woodbury-county-v-anderson
James v Strange
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/407/128/
Fuller v Oregon
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/417/40/
State v Dudley
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914b1a4add7b0493475ab37
Bearden v Georgia
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/461/660/
Fines and Fees Justice Center
https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/
Email Alex
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213: How Anecdotes and Fear are Driving Maryland to Undo the Juvenile Justice Reform Act w/Natasha Dartigue and Alycia Capozello
After being rated as one of the worst places in the country for their youth legal system, Maryland law makers decided to implement an overhaul of said system. After two years of study and advocacy, the state was guilted into action. Now, after less than 18 months in effect, police and prosecutors have convinced law makers into chipping away at the reforms. Today, Hunter is joined once again by the Public Defender of Maryland, Natasha Dartigue, and by Deputy District Public Defender for Baltimore City, Alycia Capozello, to discuss the anecdotes and fear driving legislators towards bad criminal legal policy.
Guests:
Natasha Dartigue, The Public Defender of the State of Maryland
Alycia Capozello, Deputy District Public Defender, Baltimore City, MD
Resources:
Maryland before the JJRA
https://humanrightsforkids.org/wp-content/uploads/State-Ratings-Report_2020.pdf
JJRA Report
https://djs.maryland.gov/Pages/Juvenile-Justice-Reform-Council.aspx
Child Interrogation Protection Act
https://www.aclu-md.org/en/press-releases/child-interrogation-protection-act-goes-effect-saturday
Current Talks About JJRA
Office of the State Public Defender Maryland
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212: How Three L.A. Public Defenders Hope to Change the Legal System by Becoming Judges w/Ericka Wiley, George Turner, and Kim Repecka
211: The Danger Imperative: Violence, Death, and the Soul of Policing w/Michael Sierra-Arévalo
Why is it that even the most well intentioned, well thought out reforms for policing fail? At the heart of policing is a culture that teaches police to see threats around every corner. Today, Hunter sat down with sociology professor, Michael Sierra-Arévalo, to discuss his newest book The Danger Imperative: Violence, Death, and the Soul of Policing to try and understand all that contributes to that culture and how it impacts police practices.
Guests:
Michael Sierra-Arévalo, Professor of Sociology, University of Texas-Austin
Resources:
Get your copy of Michael’s Book here:
https://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-danger-imperative/9780231198479
Killology
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/warrior-cop-class-dave-grossman-killology.html
Michael’s Contacts
https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/sociology/faculty/ms39643
https://www.sierraarevalo.com/
Tony Cheng Policing Machine
https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo208342229.html
Samantha Simon Before the Badge
https://www.amazon.com/Before-Badge-Academy-Training-Violence/dp/1479813273
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210: The Copaganda Fueling the Retail Theft Crisis that Never Was w/Brad Haywood
Today, Hunter is once again joined by Arlington, VA Chief Public Defender Brad Haywood. This time, Brad joins the show to dig into the ways copaganda has negatively impacted criminal legal reforms in Virginia. Specifically, we discuss the ways false media outrage about organized retail theft and the century old war on drug rhetoric have shaped Virginia’s discourse on criminal legal policy.
Guests:
Brad Haywood, Chief Public Defender, Arlington and City of Falls Chruch, Virginia
Resources:
Retail Theft Coverage
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/07/retail-theft-losses-inventory-nrf
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/02/27/shoplifting-retail-theft-lawmakers-response
Fentanyl Terorism Law
Radley Balko on Jason Miyares
https://radleybalko.substack.com/p/virginias-culture-warrior-attorney
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209: Sometimes to Fix a Public Defender System, You have to be Willing to Let it Fail w/James McDermott and Paul Chambers
Today, Hunter is once again joined by James McDermott and Paul Chambers from the Far West Texas Regional Public Defender Office. This time, James and Paul are discussing how they utilized the new National Workload study to double their attorney staff. While the use of data was extremely important into winning over county commissioners, James’ and Paul’s willingness to let the system fail proved to be the catalyst in securing more funding.
Guests:
James McDermott, Chief Public Defender, Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
Paul Chambers, Deputy Chief Public Defender, Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
Resources:
National Workload Study
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA2559-1.html
Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
https://far-west-texas-regional-public-defender.business.site/
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208: Death by Design: The Death Penalty in Harris County, Texas w/Jessica Brand
Today, Hunter sat down with Jessica Brand, the found of the Wren Collective, to discuss their recent report about the death penalty in Harris County, Texas. For decades, Harris County used the death penalty more than anywhere in the world, but unlike many places, it did not use full time public defenders for these cases. Instead, they used court appointed counsel, and the results of that representation model have been stunningly bad.
Guests:
Jessica Brand, Founder, Wren Collective
Resources:
Contact the Wren Collective
https://www.wrencollective.org/contact-3
Death by Design Part 1
https://www.wrencollective.org/_files/ugd/8fe8f0_fd475c291d07486188088f0d5c2ffa33.pdf
Death By Design Part 2
https://www.wrencollective.org/_files/ugd/8fe8f0_cd056b2be4634f3e9410053388c79bfe.pdf
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207: How Public Defenders Can and Have Beaten Mass Immigration Prosecutions w/Eric Fish
In a follow up to our episode on Operation Lone Star, Hunter is joined by UC Davis Law Professor Eric Fish to discuss his recent law review article, “Resisting Mass Immigration Prosecutions.” On our previous OLS episode, we discussed the many ways the state of Texas has stacked the deck in its favor, making it extremely difficult for PDs to get anything close to a “win.” Yet, OLS is not the first mass immigration prosecution scheme, and today’s episode is about understanding the lessons we can learn from Eric, the other PDs, and the criminal defense attorneys in San Diego who got amazing wins against Operation Streamline.
Guests:
Eric Fish, Former Federal Public Defender and Professor of Law, UC Davis School of Law
Resources:
Law Review Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4659514
History of Operation Streamline
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/Operation_Streamline_Policy_Brief.pdf
Contact Eric
https://law.ucdavis.edu/people/eric-fish
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206: What has Actually Happened Since Illinois Abolished Cash Bail w/Sharlyn Grace, Celeste Korando, and Victoria Kerr
(AUDIO CORRECTED)
Following years of intense advocacy in the state house, a robust coalition of people in Illinois were successfully able to abolish cash bail with the SAFE-T Act. For the tough on crime crowd, this law would turn Illinois into “the Purge.” Anarchy would claim the streets and the entire state would become lawless….but did that actually happen? Joining Hunter today are Celeste Korando, the Chief Public Defender of Jackson County Illinois, Sharlyn Grace, the Senior Policy Advisor at the Cook County Public Defender, and Victoria Kerr, former Public Defender and current Private Defense Counsel in Central IL, to talk about the good, the bad, and the truth of the SAFE-T Act.
Guests:
Celeste Korando, Chief Public Defender, Jackson County, Illinois
Sharlyn Grace, Senior Policy Advisor, Cook County Public Defender
Victoria Kerr, Criminal Defense Attorney, Central Illinois
Resources:
SAFE-T Act
https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/the-illinois-supreme-court-cash-bail-ruling-explained
https://eji.org/news/illinois-becomes-first-state-to-abolish-cash-bail/
Bad Faith Reactions to the Law
https://myfox8.com/news/is-a-purge-law-coming-to-illinois/
Flow Chart
Contact Sharlyn
https://www.cookcountypublicdefender.org/locations-contact/find-public-defender/grace-sharlyn
https://twitter.com/SharlynDGrace
Contact Celeste
https://twitter.com/CelesteKorando
https://www.linkedin.com/in/celeste-korando-ba327a3b
Contact Victoria
Vekay19896@Gmail.com
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205: The Washington Supreme Court Case Giving 500,000+ a New Chance at Freedom w/Grace O'Connor, Nat Jacob, and Kimonti Carter
In 2021, the Washington Supreme handed down one of the most important rulings in the history of the state. For decades, people in Washington were convicted under the state’s felony drug possession law without any requirement they had knowledge of the drugs they possessed. The court struck down this strict liability law and opened the door for hundreds of thousands of people to be released, resentenced, or have their case vacated. Today, Hunter spoke with Grace O’Connor, Nat Jacob, and Kimonti Carter, the team at the Washington Office of Public Defense, who work on helping people navigate their options in the wake of Blake v State.
Guests:
Grace O’Connor, Former Blake Managing Defense Attorney, Washington Office of Public Defense
Nat Jacob, Blake Triage Attorney, Washington Office of Public Defense
Kimonti Carter, Blake Community Outreach Specialist, Washington Office of Public Defense
Resources:
Blake v State
https://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/968730.pdf
Contact the Blake Team
Call 800-414-6064 (ext 218)
Email blake@opd.wa.gov
How to Vacate Conviction
https://opd.wa.gov/find-legal-help-and-information/vacate-drug-possession-convictions-state-v-blake
Since I Been Down
https://www.sinceibeendown.com/
https://www.kimonticarter.com/teach
Redemption Project of Washington
Seattle Clemency Project
https://www.seattleclemencyproject.org/
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204: One Journalist's Effort to Uncover the Rot in Kentucky's Legal System w/Taylor Six
Today, Hunter spoke with Taylor Six, a journalist at the Lexington Harold Leader in Kentucky, to discuss her expansive coverage of the criminal legal system in the state. From a system that is almost devoid of all trials to accusations of racial bias in local prosecutors, Taylor is doing amazing work bringing to light the criminal legal stories that help drive better criminal legal policies.
Guests:
Taylor Six, Journalist, Lexington Harold Leader, Kentucky
Resources:
Follow up on Racial Bias Accusation from Judge
https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article284296008.html
Case of Lasielle White
Teen linked to Fatal Shooting Gets Probation
https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article275460956.html#storylink=cpy
https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article281033483.html
Plea Deal Story
https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article278980039.html
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203: How the Legal System Abuses and Ignores the Rights of Incarcerated People w/Kaelen Perrochet
The protections of the Constitution are meant to apply to all Americans regardless of their status, but for those who are incarcerated, courts have systematically denied, abused, or ignored those protections. Today, Hunter is once again joined by Kaelen Perrochet, a UCLA law student and two-time previous guest, to take a look at the various rights prisoner’s simply don’t have. From denial of healthcare and safety to no access to courts or counsel, this episode is a reminder that courts have and continue to determine who should rights based simply on who they are.
Guests:
Kaelen Perrochet, UCLA Law Student,
Resources:
Singer v Raemisch
https://casetext.com/case/singer-v-raemisch
Lewis v Casey
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/94-1511.ZO.html
Estelle v Gamble
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/429/97
Farmer v Brennan
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/92-7247.ZS.html
Brown v Plata
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/09-1233.ZO.html
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202: Using the Carrot and the Stick to Improve Texas Public Defense w/Geoff Burkhart
Today, Hunter is continuing his coverage of public defense in Texas by speaking with former Executive Director of the Texas Indigent Defense Commission and current Executive Director of the Texas Fair Defense Project, Geoff Burkhart. Under his leadership, there was a massive expansion of institutional public defender offices around Texas, but it happened in an extremely unorthodox manner. Normally, public defender offices spring up in the urban areas and slowly make their way to the more rural parts of the state, but in Texas, that model has been a bit backwards. With the grant money TIDC provided, rural communities jumped at the chance to have institutional public defender offices, while some large metro areas (Tarrant County in particular) still relied on a contract base private attorney system. Why that happened, what Geoff learned, and why he left TIDC to work at the Fair Defense Project are just a few of the topics explored on today’s episode!
Guests:
Geoff Burkhart, Executive Director, Texas Fair Defense Project
Resources:
Texas Fair Defense Project
Texas Indigent Defense Commission
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201: The Fight Against Mass Immigration Prosecutions w/Kimberly Simmons and Jamie Spencer
Today, Hunter sat down with Kimberly Simmons, Executive Director, and Jamie Spencer, managing attorney, at the Texas Rio Grande Public Defender to discuss their role in fighting against the mass immigration prosecutions of Operation Lone Star. Despite immigration policy falling under the exclusive control of the federal government, Texas started OLS after it determined not enough was being done to arrest and deport migrants in the country illegally. As with most tough on crime immigration policies, the goal of OLS is to make the deportation of people go as quickly as possible, without much regard for due process or the treatment of those being detained. This episode highlights the importance of the public defense in stopping states from railroading people through our broken immigration system.
Guests:
Kimberly Simmons, Executive Director, Texas Rio Grande Public Defender
Jamie Spencer, Managing Attorney, Texas Rio Grande Public Defender
Resources:
TRGPD
Operation Lone Star
https://www.tidc.texas.gov/operation-lone-star/
https://www.texastribune.org/series/operation-lone-star/
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200: The Problems with Public Defense in Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Alaska, and California w/Radley Balko
Today, Hunter is joined by longtime criminal justice investigative journalist Radley Balko to discuss his newest reporting on Public Defender systems around the country. Over his storied career covering everything from police misconduct to legislation like AEDPA, Radley noticed that at the heart of so many cases was poor access to competent counsel. This spurred him in the fall of 2023 to start an investigative series into the inner workings of each state’s public defender system. Today, Hunter and Radley discuss the first instalment that covered Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Alaska, and California.
Guests:
Radley Balko, Investigative Journalist
Resources:
The Watch (Radley’s Podcast)
https://radleybalko.substack.com/
States of Indigent Defense Part 1
https://radleybalko.substack.com/p/the-states-of-indigent-defense-part
Perpetual Crisis in Indigent Defense
https://radleybalko.substack.com/p/the-perpetual-crisis-in-indigent
Lee Enterprise Arizona
Larry Price
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199: The Incredible Success of Missouri's Holistic Public Defense Program w/Annie Legomsky
Today, Hunter spoke with Annie Legomsky, the Holistic Defense Service leader for the Missouri State Public Defender. On this episode, Hunter and Annie discuss the incredible success stories from the implementation of a state wide holistic defense practice. For many, holistic defense seems like a great idea, but they feel they cannot muster the resources to make it happen. This story is an excellent example of the ways an office can creatively find the money to make holistic defense possible
Guest:
Annie Legomsky, Holistic Defense Services, Missouri State Public Defender
Resources:
Missouri State Public Defender
https://publicdefender.mo.gov/
Partners for Justice
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198: Ending Mississippi's Criminal Law "Dead Zone" and the Challenge of Securing Public Defender "Wins" w/Andre de Gruy
Today, Hunter is once again joined by Mississippi State Public Defender Andre de Gruy to discuss the criminal legal system in Mississippi. Specifically, Hunter and Andre dig into how the state ended the “dead zone” in the legal system that left incarcerated people without counsel for more than a year. They discuss the on going problems in making the changes meaningful improvements in the overall legal system, and after that, they touch on the state’s attempt to take over the judicial system in Jackson Mississippi.
Guests:
Andre de Gruy, State Public Defender, Mississippi
Resources:
State Take Over of Jackson’s Judiciary
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/21/us/jackson-mississippi-judicial-system/index.html
Mississippi Dead Zone
https://6ac.org/mississippis-dead-zone-highlights-the-urgent-need-for-state-level-reforms/
https://www.pushblack.us/news/states-public-defender-system-leaves-many-dead-zone
Mississippi Public Defense System
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197: Chipping Away at Virginia's Cruel Legal System, One Policy at a Time w/Rob Poggenklass, Andy Elders, and Ashley Shapiro
The conditions with which Public Defenders must fight under are set in the state house. That’s why Hunter is so excited to speak with one of the best criminal law policy groups in the country, Justice Forward Virginia. Rob Poggenklass, Ashely Shapiro, and Andy Elders join the show to discuss some of the slate of policy reforms they are hoping to tackle this legislative cycle. From prospective Fourth Amendment waivers to child felony expungement cases, Justice Forward Virginia has an impressive and comprehensive agenda to reshape Virginia’s rotten criminal legal system.
Guests:
Rob Poggenklass, Executive Director, Justice Forward Virginia
Andy Elders, Chairman of the Board, Justice Forward Virginia
Ashley Shapiro, Vice Chair of the Board, Justice Forward Virginia
Resources:
Lend your voice to Justice Virginia’s Policy advocacy
https://justiceforwardva.com/blog/2023/11/27/2024-justice-reform-lobby-day-registration
Follow Justice Forward on
https://www.facebook.com/JusticeForwardVa
https://twitter.com/justicefwdva
https://www.instagram.com/justicefwdva/
2024 Agenda Items
https://justiceforwardva.com/2024-priorities
Issues
https://justiceforwardva.com/issues
Contact Justice Forward VA
https://justiceforwardva.com/contact
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@PDefenselessPod
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196: The Coalition Trying to Abolish the Death Penalty in Nevada w/Nancy Hart and Chris Peterson
After our sobering conversation about the Parkland Shooting case on Tuesday, Hunter continues looking into the death penalty in today’s episode. Joining him to discuss the abolition of the death penalty in Nevada is Nancy Hart and Chris Peterson. Nancy is the President of the Nevada Coalition Against the Death Penalty and Chris is the Legal Director at the ACLU of Nevada. Together, they bring decades of experience in the criminal legal and death penalty abolition space, and both expertly lay out the policy, ethical, and practical reasons why the death penalty needs to end in Nevada.
Guests:
Nancy Hart, President, Nevada Coalition Against the Death Penalty
Chris Peterson, Legal Director, ACLU of Nevada
Resources:
Nevada Coalition Against the Death Penalty
https://www.facebook.com/nvcadp
https://www.instagram.com/nvcadp/
ACLU of Nevada
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195: Securing Life over Death in the Parkland School Shooting Case w/Casey Secor and Kate O'Shea
Today, Hunter is honored to speak with two people from the defense team of Nikolas Cruz, Casey Secor and Kate O’Shea, to discuss their role in securing a life sentence over the death penalty. Today’s episode touches on an incredibly sensitive, complex topic about one of the most horrific crimes committed in recent memory. Throughout this episode, Kate and Casey draw on their years of expertise in fighting against the death penalty to explain how this incredible tragedy occurred. As is always the case in death penalty cases, Hunter, Kate, and Casey reveal the incredible advantages the prosecution is afforded, but despite these advantages, three jurors voted for life over death. In response, Florida has done everything in their power to make it easier for the state to execute people. Hopefully by the end of this incredible conversation, you will understand why Florida’s response is one we should emphatically reject.
Guests:
Casey Secor, CEO and Senior Staff Attorney, Suzerain Capital Defense
Kate O’Shea, Mitigation Specialist, Suzerain Capital Defense
Resources:
Suzerain Capital Defense
Parkland Judge Reprimanded
Florida’s Multifaceted Expansion of the Death Penalty Raises Constitutional Concerns
Floridians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty
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Thank You for the Past Year and the Year to Come
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194: Aurora City Council's Continued Effort to Disband the Public Defender Office w/Elizabeth Cadiz
For the last episode of the year, we are returning to the Aurora Municipal Office to unpack the ongoing effort by the Aurora City Council to disband the Public Defender Office. This time, Hunter is joined by the new Chief Public Defender, Elizabeth Cadiz. Over a long career in the office, Elizabeth has seen the incredible corruption and Constitutional violations. Over the last year, she helped to orchestrate an amazing challenge to the city attorney’s office pattern and practice of discovery violations. Following this victory and her taking over the office, City Council is one again determined to remove the office in favor of a “cheaper” alternative. While the City Council continues to say this is about costs, but a look back at the history of this office indicates that City Council is simply tired of having a zealous advocate stand in the way of their tough on crime agenda.
Guests:
Elizabeth Cadiz, Chief Public Defender, Aurora, Colorado Municipal Public Defense
Resources:
Aurora lawmakers agree to analyze privatizing public defender’s office
Local News Coverage
https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/aurora-considering-getting-rid-public-defenders/
https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/video/aurora-considering-getting-rid-of-public-defenders/
Offense for the defense: Aurora public defenders take the stand
https://sentinelcolorado.com/metro/offense-for-the-defense-aurora-public-defenders-take-the-stand/
ACLU Letter to City Council
Defender’s Union of Colorado Op-Ed
Aurora city attorneys review, notify impacted defendants of lacking ‘Brady letters’
Aurora lawmakers give 1st OK to mandatory jail time for shoplifting, despite lack of cost data
Aurora lawmakers impose mandatory 3 days in jail for shoplifting more than $300
Impacts of Mandatory Minimum Sentencing:
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/end-mandatory-minimums
ACLU Report on Municipal Courts Colorado
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BONUS: Public Comment on the Privatization of the Aurora Public Defender
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmeK_lsixF4
193: What Went Right, What Went Wrong, and What is Next for Idaho Public Defense w/Kimberly Simmons and Paul Riggins
Today, Hunter sat down with Kimberly Simmons, the former Executive Director of the Idaho Public Defense Commission, and Paul Riggins, a private criminal defense attorney in Idaho, to discuss the past decade+ of public defense in Idaho. Like so many county based systems covered on the show, Idaho was once a patch work model where the quality of representation a person could expect depended almost entirely on where that person was arrested. Seeing the flaws in this model, Idaho took major steps to start to create more uniform standards and control of the system, but it failed to produce the results everyone wants. Tune in to hear how and why Idaho now stands on the verge of its second major public defense overhaul in just the past decade.
Guests:
Kimberly Simmons, Former Executive Director, Idaho Public Defense Commission
Paul Riggins, Criminal Defense Attorney, Idaho
Resources:
Tucker v Idaho
https://www.acluidaho.org/en/cases/tucker-v-state-idaho
2010 NLADA Report
Bonnie Groller Law Review Article
Idaho Workload Study
https://pdc.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/03/PDC-WORKLOAD-STUDY-online-version.pdf
Idaho Public Defender Overhaul
https://blog.idahoreports.idahoptv.org/2023/03/23/legislature-approves-public-defense-overhaul/
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192: The Rise of Big Data Policing and the Dangers of the Digital Age of Surveillance w/Andrew Ferguson
In our last instalment of our mini series on the Fourth Amendment, Hunter spoke with Andrew Ferguson, Professor of Law at American University Washington College of Law. On this episode, we will explore the rise of Big Data Policing, also known as predictive policing, and how the digital era we are in must be understood differently than previous eras if the Fourth Amendment is to protect people’s privacy.
Guests:
Andrew Ferguson, Professor of Law, American University Washington College of Law
Resources:
Andrew’s Faculty Page
https://www.wcl.american.edu/community/faculty/profile/aferguson/publications
The Rise of Big Data Policing
https://nyupress.org/9781479892822/
Real Time Crime Centers
https://www.wired.com/story/real-time-crime-centers-rtcc-us-police/
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191: The Digital General Warrants Encroaching on Your Right to Privacy w/Mike Price
At the founding of the country, the Fourth Amendment was designed to protect against general warrants. In the colonial period, the Crown would secure warrants to search anything and everything in one’s possession in often meritless attempts to harass and intimidate colonists. One would think that this history would make people wary at the thought of such a warrant, but with the advent of Geo-Fence and Key Word Search Warrants, the general warrant has entered the digital age…with the legal system struggling to keep up. Today, Hunter is joined by Mike Price, the Litigation Director of the Fourth Amendment Center, to discuss these new warrants, and what, if anything, can be done to stop them.
Guests:
Mike Price, Litigation Director, Fourth Amendment Center, NACDL
Resources:
Fourth Amendment Center
https://www.nacdl.org/Landing/FourthAmendmentCenter
US v Chatrie
https://www.nacdl.org/Document/US-v-Chatrie-4th-Circuit-Appeal-Brief
Colorado Seymour Case
https://www.nacdl.org/Document/Seymour-Rule-21-Petition
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190: The Dangerous Expansion of Facial Recognition Technology w/Clare Garvie
Continuing our Fourth Amendment mini-series, Hunter is joined today by Clare Garvie, the facial recognition technology guru at the Fourth Amendment Center. As she lays out in her excellent report on facial recognition technology, its use is widespread, and that should frighten everyone. Thanks to Clare’s expertise, hopefully each of you will walk away understanding that facial recognition technology is not something that police departments should be using any time soon.
Guests:
Clare Garvie, Training and Resource Counsel, Fourth Amendment Center, NACDL
Resources:
Fourth Amendment Center
https://www.nacdl.org/Landing/FourthAmendmentCenter
A Forensic Without the Science: Face Recognition in U.S Criminal Investigation
http://forensicwithoutscience.org/
New Jersey v Arteaga
Wrongful Arrest of Porsha Woddruff
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/06/business/facial-recognition-false-arrest.html
Email Clare
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189: Why The Fourth Amendment Needs to Enter the Digital Age w/Jumana Musa
Today, we kick of two straight weeks of coverage on the future of the Fourth Amendment. We start our mini-series by speaking to the Director of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyer’s Fourth Amendment Center Jumana Musa. Today’s episode sets the stage for our upcoming conversations about facial recognition, reverse key word warrants, geofence warrants, and the general rise of big data policing. The ultimate question: Given the Supreme Court and lower Court decisions on Fourth Amendment Cases, what faith should we have that the legal profession is ready to usher the Fourth Amendment into the 21st century?
Guests:
Jumana Musa, Director, Fourth Amendment Center, National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
Resources:
Carpenter v U.S.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-402_h315.pdf
Riley v California
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/13-132
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Fourth Amendment Center
https://www.nacdl.org/Landing/FourthAmendmentCenter
ACLU Fourth Amendment
https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/search-and-seizure
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188: If Law School Can't Solve the Shortage of Public Defenders, What Can? w/John Gross
Without exception, every single state Public Defender system is facing a shortage of Public Defenders. In many of our episodes, we’ve discussed innovative ways to try and bolster the number of people in law school interested in pursuing a career in Public Defense. Unfortunately as today’s guest reveals, there is simply no way for law schools to solve the shortage of people. John Gross has spent the better part of the last two decades trying to come up with ways to solve the crisis in Public Defense. Without drastic systemic changes, and perhaps a string of case refusals, he is certain that we cannot simply recruit our way out of the shortage of Public Defenders.
Guests:
Professor John Gross, Director of the Public Defender Project, University of Wisconsin School of Law
Resources:
John’s Faculty Page
https://law.wisc.edu/profiles/jpgross3@wisc.edu
John’s previous writings on Public Defense
https://www.publicdefenders.us/blog_home.asp?display=1062
https://www.publicdefenders.us/blog_home.asp?display=35
https://harvardlawreview.org/blog/2023/03/reframing-the-indigent-defense-crisis/
https://www.nacdl.org/Document/GideonI-RationingJusticeUnderfundedAssignedCounsel
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187: The Public Defender Take on the True Crime Podcast w/David Moore
Today, Hunter is joined by fellow podcaster David Moore. David is the host of the incredible Podcast, Another Not Guilty, that seeks to take a Public Defender twist on the true crime genre. As arguably the most popular genre of podcast, the true crime world often disregards the cases that result in a not guilty and are desperately lacking the perspective of the defense counsel who secure them. With ANG, David strives to give a platform for Public Defenders from around the country to showcase their victories in a manner that pokes fun at the comical stupidity our legal system.
Guests:
David Moore, Public Defender, Los Angeles and Host of the Another Not Guilty Podcast
Resources:
Another Not Guilty Podcast
https://www.anothernotguiltypod.com/
Another Not Guilty Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/show/3tSDZ0wKsXpwSHDqW81CU8
Another Not Guilty Apple
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/another-not-guilty/id1395439829
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186: Why is our Legal System so Ethically Inconsistent w/Kaelen Perrochet
Today, Hunter is once again joined by UCLA law student, Kaelen Perrochet, for another deep dive into the world of legal ethics. Last time he was on, Kaelen explored the reasons why we punish people, and today, he brings more excellent commentary on why it is so difficult for people to imagine a country that protects a person’s positive and negative rights.
Guests:
Kaelen Perrochet, Law Student, UCLA School of Law
Resources:
Follow Kaelen on Twitter
https://twitter.com/KaelenPerrochet
Follow Kaelen on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/kperrochet/?hl=en
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185: The Compelling Case for Full Time Public Defender Offices in Rural California w/Lael Kayfetz
After speaking with Chief Public Defenders from most of the major metropolitan areas in California, Hunter turns today’s episode to the smallest full time Public Defender Office in the state. Lael Kayfetz, Chief Public Defender in Siskiyou County California, joins the show to share her experience of leading an office in conservative, rural California. While not all the things that make her successful can easily be ported over to larger jurisdictions, there is a great many lessons to be learned from a leader who has successfully navigated this challenging political climate over an amazing 18-year career.
Guests:
Lael Kayfetz, Chief Public Defender, Siskiyou County, California
Resources:
Contact Lael
AB 625
https://pluralpolicy.com/app/legislative-tracking/bill/details/state-ca-20212022-ab625/787429
Lake County 6AC Report
https://6ac.org/lake-county-california-report/
Santa Cruz County 6AC Report
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184: Another Supreme Court Decision Stopping Innocent People from Getting Their Day in Court w/Alison Guernsey and Meredith Esser
An unfortunate theme of the show is the reality that the Supreme Court is more than happy to close the doors of the courthouse to those who are factually or legally innocent. Preferring to uphold and support the concept of “finality” over truth, the Supreme Court once again found a way to keep a potentially innocent man from escaping an unjust sentence. Joining Hunter to discuss this and more is Alison Guernsey, Director of the University of Iowa College of Law Federal Criminal Defense Clinic, and Meredith Esser, Director of the University of Wyoming College of Law Defender Aid Clinic. As former Federal Public Defenders themselves, both hope to draw attention to the immense disparity between people’s conception of justice and the “justice” available to those trapped in the Federal Criminal Legal System.
Guests:
Professor Alison Guernsey, Director Federal Criminal Defense Clinic, University of Iowa College of Law
Professor Meredith Esser, Director Defender Aid Clinic, University of Wyoming College of Law
Resources:
Jones v Hendrix
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/21-857_4357.pdf
https://theappeal.org/supreme-court-jones-v-hendrix-hurting-innocent-people/
Shinn v Ramirez
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-1009_19m2.pdf
Rehaif v US
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/18pdf/17-9560_e2p3.pdf
Changes to Compassionate Release
https://www.fd.org/news/sentencing-commission-votes-expand-compassionate-release
FCI Dublin Coverage
Meredith’s Law Review Article “Extraordinary Punishment: Conditions of Confinement and Compassionate Release”
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4410197
Allegra McLeod Law Review Article “Prison Abolition and Grounded Justice”
https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2502&context=facpub
Alison’s Faculty Page
https://law.uiowa.edu/people/alison-k-guernsey
Follow Alison on Twitter
https://twitter.com/alison_guernsey?lang=en
Meredith’s Faculty Page
https://www.uwyo.edu/law/directory/meredith-esser.html
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183: After Serious Positive Overhauls, What is Next For Delaware Public Defense? w/Kevin O'Connell
Today, Hunter is once again joined by Delaware Chief Public Defender, Kevin O’Connell. Last time, Kevin came on to discuss the uniquely terrible Delaware Law Enforcement Bill of Rights. This time, Hunter and Kevin did a deeper dive into the past, present, and future of Public Defense in the state of Delaware. Of all the important parts of this episode, the journey taken by Delaware Public Defense following their Sixth Amendment Center report is strong evidence that meaningful change is possible!
Guests:
Kevin O’Connell, Chief Public Defender, Delaware
Resources:
Delaware Public Defender Report
https://6ac.org/delaware-report/
Public Defender Delaware
Delaware Campaign to End Debtor’s Prisons
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182: Looking to Other Countries to Push Back Against the Cruelty of the American Youth Legal System w/Betsy Clarke
Today, Hunter sat down with a fierce, lifelong advocate for a better system of Youth Justice. Betsy Clarke, the Founder of the Juvenile Justice Initiative, joins the show today to talk about her hope for continuing to improve the youth justice system at the state level. Drawing on decades of work and important lessons from the youth justice systems of other nations, Betsy is an amazing resource for all those trying to find ways to overhaul our exceptionally cruel juvenile justice system.
Guests:
Betsy Clarke, Founder, Juvenile Justice Initiative
Resources:
Convention on the Rights of the Child
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-rights-child
Juvenile Justice Initiative
https://www.jjustice.org/new-page-1
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181: The Partners for Justice Programs Sparking Change in Public Defense w/Rebecca Solow and Vichal Kumar
Today, Hunter is once again joined by two amazing advocates from Partners for Justice. Rebecca Solow, Founder and Co-Executive Director, and Vichal Kumar, Director of Capacity Building, join us today to discuss the amazing progress of their partnerships with state and local public defender offices around the country. The best part of these Partners for Justice programs is the way they build the capacity of Public Defense by responding to the individual needs of each office and jurisdiction. From California, Missouri, Kansas, and Cook County, Partners For Justice is a leader in finding innovative, cost effective ways to create better, more vibrant public defender offices.
Guests:
Rebecca Solow, Founder and Co-Executive Director, Partners for Justice
Vichal Kumar, Director of Capacity Building, Partners for Justice
Resources:
Partners for Justice
https://www.partnersforjustice.org/
PFJ Twitter
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180: After 17 Years of Incarceration, One Man's Fight to Radically Reimagine the American Legal System w/Sean Wilson
Today, Hunter is joined by Sean Wilson, the Organizing Director at Dream Corp Justice, to discuss his journey from incarceration to community organizing to driving major criminal legal reforms. After 17 years of incarceration, Sean understood the ways our mass incarceration system fails to help people rehabilitate and re-enter society with the skills they need to thrive. From his local community in Milwaukee to communities around the country, Sean brings incredible passion and drive to help people avoid ever interacting with the criminal legal system.
Guests:
Sean Wilson, the Organizing Director at Dream Corp Justice, Dream.org
Resources:
Sean Wilson Dream.org
https://dream.org/team-members/sean-wilson/
Dream.Org
https://twitter.com/thedreamcorps
https://www.instagram.com/dream.corps/
https://www.facebook.com/thedreamcorps
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179: The Cruel Past, Present and Future of Solitary Confinement w/Keramet Reiter
Today, Hunter sat down with Professor Keramet Reiter to discuss her decades+ research into solitary confinement and the American Prison System. In her immense scholarship, it is easier to say what Keramet has not written about than what she has. With her vast array of American and International solitary confinement practices, she is the perfect guest to explain the problems with solitary confinement and the prison system as a whole
Guests:
Keramet Reiter, Professor & Vice Chair of Criminology, Law & Society and School of Law, University of California Irvine School of Social Ecology
Resources:
Keramet’s Website (where you can find all of her books!)
Keramet’s Faculty Page
https://faculty.sites.uci.edu/reiter/
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178: How Does the Tennessee Youth Legal System Allow Judges to Make up Crimes and Illegally Jail Kids w/Christina Kleiser and Meribah Knight
Today, Hunter is joined by two fierce advocates for youth justice in the state of Tennessee. Chris Kleiser, a Knox County Public Defender, and Meribah Knight, a Senior Reporter for Special Projects with Nashville Public Radio, bring us a story of how one rouge judge illegally policed and caged young people in Rutherford County Tennessee. Many of you may have read the shocking reporting last year about Judge Donna Scott Davenport. Over more than two decades, she abused her position of power on the bench, and today’s episode is designed to figure out what structural things in the Tennessee criminal legal system allow this to happen.
Guests:
Christina Kleiser, Assistant Public Defender and Youth Lead, Knox County, Tennessee
Meribah Knight, Senior Reporter for Special Projects, Nashville Public Radio
Resources:
Black Children Were Jailed for a Crime That Doesn’t Exist. Almost Nothing Happened to the Adults in Charge
https://www.propublica.org/article/black-children-were-jailed-for-a-crime-that-doesnt-exist
Judge Davenport Plans to Retire
Check out the In Defense of Children Podcast
https://open.spotify.com/show/5RrAfBAibvkm117xBx8GmW
https://www.instagram.com/indefenseofchildrenpodcast/
Follow Meribah Knight on Twitter
https://twitter.com/meribah?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Read Meribah’s Work
https://www.meribahknight.com/
Serial’s Podcast with Meribah
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/podcasts/serial-kids-rutherford-county.html
https://open.spotify.com/show/4SwSDvOGcbc4cPA52nS4ww
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-kids-of-rutherford-county/id1707247008
Knox County Public Defender
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177: The Public Defender Policy Team Fighting Back Against San Francisco's Pro-Policing Agenda w/Angela Chan
Today’s guest brings a decade plus of experience in criminal justice policy reform to the San Francisco Public Defender Office. Hunter spoke with Angela Chan, Chief of Confront and Advocate, the policy branch of the SF Public Defender Office. In most places, District Attorneys operate by themselves in the policy world, and that is part of the reason that our society is awash with their policy preferences. In San Francisco however, Brooke Jenkins must compete with the powerful voice of Angela, Mano, and the rest of the policy centric branches of the San Francisco Public Defender.
Guests:
Angela Chan, Chief of Confront and Advocate, San Francisco Public Defender's Office
Resources:
SF Public Defender Office Hires Angela Chan
SF Public Defender Office
Brooke Jenkins Blames Judges for Crisis
SF Public Defender Twitter
https://twitter.com/sfdefender?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Brooke Jenkins Misconduct
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/brooke-jenkins-misconduct-18338499.php
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176: The Corruption and Coverup that Led to the Wrongful Conviction of Tim Wright w/Adam Deutsch
Today, Hunter spoke with a longtime investigator in the innocence movement, Adam Deutsch, to discuss the wrongful conviction of Tim Wright. In 2008, was convicted of the murder of Justin Baumgardner, but after more than a decade behind bars, evidence is mounting that Tim is behind bars as a result of an elaborate cover up by the Amherst County Deputy Sheriffs. With the help of bad ballistics, bad cellular triangulation, and a witness with every motive to lie, Tim was convicted. Thankfully, there are people like Adam and Tim's wife Danielle tirelessly fighting for the truth to come to light.
Guests:
Adam Deutsch, Investigator and Founder of Synergy Intelligence Holdings
Resources:
Tim Wright 2018 Georgetown Making an Exoneree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXiv05XlrJ0
Tim Wright Uncuff the Innocent
https://www.uncufftheinnocent.org/tim-wright-jr
Tim Wright’s Website
Tim Wright Twitter
https://twitter.com/innocence4tim?lang=en
Contact Adam
http://www.synergyintelligence.com/
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175: How Iowa Makes People Pay for Their Public Defenders w/Darren Page *AUDIO ISSUES CORRECTED*
*There was an issue with the file uploading to the podcast platforms. It has been corrected! Apologies*
Today, Hunter spoke with Iowa Public Defender, Darren Page, to peel back the layers of Public Defense in Iowa to try and understand why the Chief Justice of the Iowa Supreme Court said the system was in a state of crisis. On many episodes, Hunter likes to explore how states determine if someone should get a Public Defender and if states make those who get a Public Defender reimburse the state for the costs. In Iowa, the state has decided to narrowly define who is too poor to qualify for a Public Defender while also mandating that people reimburse the state for costs. While this is not what’s causing the crisis, it is a signal of a system desperate for reforms.
Guests:
Darren Page, Assistant Public Defender, Des Moines, Iowa
Resources:
Iowa Public Defender in a state of Crisis
Iowa State Public defender
Iowa Public Defender Strategic Plan 2019-2023
https://spd.iowa.gov/sites/default/files/SPD%20Strategic%20Plan%20-%202019-2023.pdf
Iowa Annual Public Defender Reports
https://spd.iowa.gov/about-us/spd-reports
Iowa Living Wage
https://livingwage.mit.edu/states/19
National Poverty Guidelines
https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-FPL/
United Way Iowa
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174: How UnCommon Law Challenges California's Broken System of Parole w/Keith Wattley
Joining Hunter today is Keith Wattley, the Founder and Executive Director of Uncommon Law. Keith and his team at Uncommon Law support people navigating California's discretionary parole process through trauma-informed legal representation, mental health counselling, legislative and policy advocacy, and in-prison programming led by those who have been through the process themselves. For decades, people have been aware of the pervasive bias that infects the parole system of California, but little has changed to address it. That’s where Keith and Uncommon Law come in.
Guests:
Keith Wattley, Founder and Executive Director, Uncommon Law
Resources:
Uncommon Law Website
Follow Uncommon Law on
https://www.instagram.com/uncommonlawyer/
https://www.facebook.com/UnCommonLaw/
1. The Compassion Prison Project has some great information about rates of trauma - in particular, childhood trauma - among people in prison, and the relationship between Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and incarceration
2. The Sentencing Project has several really excellent reports about our country's enduring reliance on life sentencing, how ineffective these kinds of sentences actually are in promoting public safety, and the relationship between life sentencing and mass incarceration
3. Speaking of the Sentencing Project, Keith recently authored this op ed in The Crime Report with their Senior Director of Advocacy Nicole Porter, which explores similar ideas
4. The Justice Policy Institute recently released this analysis of Maryland's parole process, highlighting several of the same issues we see in California.
5. Similarly, there has been fairly regular coverage of the racial biases evident in New York's parole hearing decisions in recent years
6. Finally, feel free to check out this video series our organization put out last year; it explores cycles of violence from the perspectives of people who have both survived and caused harm, and gives a good sense of our work and messaging
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173: Defending those that Protested Against Police Brutality and the Killing of Elijah McClain w/Amelia Power
Today, Hunter is joined by criminal defense attorney and former public defender Amelia Power to discuss her role in defending those who protested the killing of Elijah McClain. As is so often the case, those who used their 1st Amendment rights to protest the abuses of police found themselves facing hefty prison time.
Guests:
Amelia Power, Criminal Defense Attorney, Colorado
Resources:
Media Coverage of the Case
https://www.westword.com/news/elijah-mcclain-protesters-charges-dropped-12335973
https://www.apowerlaw.com/media
Contact Amelia
Elijah McClain
https://www.nytimes.com/article/who-was-elijah-mcclain.html
FBI Informants in the Colorado Racial Justice Movement
https://theintercept.com/2023/02/07/fbi-denver-racial-justice-protests-informant/
Aurora Police Response to Violin Vigil
https://abcnews.go.com/US/city-aurora-sued-police-response-violin-vigil-elijah/story?id=71951197
PSL
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172: Manifesting Justice: How Wrongfully Convicted Women Reclaim Their Rights w/Valena Beety
While the Innocence Project has continuously done amazing work in revealing just how flawed our legal system can be, there has always been limits on the cases they take. Normally, these have been confined to cases where DNA evidence can definitively exonerate the wrongfully convicted. This practice can and does leave out countless people who are factually innocent behind bars. Today, Hunter spoke with Valena Beety to examine the women and LGBTQ community members who have been wrongfully convicted and how to best go about expanding the innocence movement.
Guests:
Valena Beety, Professor of Law, Indiana University Mercer School of Law, Founding Director of the West Virginia Innocence Project
Resources:
Valena Beety’s Webpage
Buy Valena’s Book
Lambda Law
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171: The Innocence Project's Future Fight Against Racial Bias and Emerging Junk Sciences w/Christina Swarns
Few organizations have been able to demonstrate the injustice of our criminal legal system quite like the Innocence Project, but their fight against the things that manifest that injustice is far from over. Today, I spoke with Christina Swarns, Executive Director of the Innocence Project, to discuss how the organization plans to combat some of the most pressing issues contributing to wrongful convictions. From massively overworked Public Defenders, all kinds of implicit biases, and ever emerging forensic sciences, the Innocence Project hopes that their continued public advocacy will push back against these societal ills.
Guests:
Christina Swarns, Executive Director, Innocence Project
Resources:
Innocence Project Website
Follow the Innocence Project on
Twitter: https://twitter.com/innocence?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/innocenceproject/?hl=en
Buck v Davis
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-8049_f2ah.pdf
https://www.oyez.org/cases/2016/15-8049
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170: The NDS Harlem Union's Fight for a Fair Contract Amidst New York's Housing Crisis w/William Botchway, Naomi Schachter, Jeremy Tinsley
Another union episode and another union episode predicated on a communication failure, a cost-of-living crisis and a desperate need for a fair contract. Today, Hunter spoke with three members of the NDS Harlem union, William Botchway, Naomi Schachter and Jeremy Tinsley, to discuss where the NDS Harlem stands now two months past the expiration of their previous contract. For everyone from entry level attorneys to social workers, and housing advocates, the compensation at NDS Harlem is simply not enough to survive with New Yorks exorbitant cost of living. Without a new, fair contract, NDS Harlem will surely start to bleed talent in a way that no office can afford.
Guests:
William Botchway, Housing Advocate and Union Member, NDS Harlem
Jeremy Tinsley, Criminal Defense Attorney and Union Member, NDS Harlem
Naomi Schachter, Social Worker in the Family Defense Unit and Union Member, NDS Harlem
Resources:
NDS Harlem
https://neighborhooddefender.org/locations/harlem/
NDS Union on Twitter
NDS Union Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/ndsunion/
ALAA Union Twitter
https://twitter.com/alaa2325?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Housing Crisis in New York
Living Wage New York
https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061
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169: How the Ever Expanding Pre-Trial Surveillance Impacts Alaska Public Defense w/Justin Racette
Today, Hunter continues his exploration of the criminal legal system in Alaska. Joining him today is Fairbanks Public Defender, Justin Racette. On Tuesday, folks from the ACLU of Alaska talked us through how the turn to tough on crime polices created brutal prison conditions, and today, we will see how those policies have impacted the ability for Alaska Public Defenders to provide competent representation to each of their clients.
Guests:
Justin Racette, Assistant Public Defender, Fairbanks Alaska
Resources:
Alaska Public Defender
Alaska Public Defender Case Refusal
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168: Alaska's Brief Moment of Criminal Justice Reform and their Turn to Tough on Crime Policies w/Mike Garvey and Megan Edge
Today, Hunter spoke with Michael Garvey and Megan Edge of the ACLU of Alaska to examine the policy history of Alaska that has made it such a pro carceral state. For a brief moment in the mid 2010’s, Alaska looked like it would start to turn towards a more rehabilitative model for its criminal legal system. Unfortunately, current Governor Mike Dunleavy had different plans. With his election in 2018, the state shifted right back to its history of being tough on crime and pro carceral. Now, the state is still one of the highest incarcerators in the world, but with little change in the rates of violent crime. Michael and Megan breakdown what that means for the people of Alaska and what can be done about it.
Guests:
Michael Garvey, Advocacy Director, ACLU of Alaska
Megan Edge, Prison Project Director, ACLU of Alaska
Resources:
ACLU of Alaska
Follow Megan on Twitter
Follow Michael on Twitter
The Appeal’s Coverage of Alaska Move to Tough on Crime Policies
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BONUS: A New Database Providing Public Defenders the Latest Social Science Data for Court w/Eve Primus
Part of the goals of this show is to remind Public Defenders that they are not alone in their fight. There is a massive network across the nation of people from all walks of life fighting both in and out of the court room to try and make a more just legal system. Today, Hunter is once again joined by University of Michigan Professor of Law Eve Primus. This time, Hunter and Eve are talking about the MDefenders latest program, the Data for Defenders. This new tool from the University of Michigan is designed to provide Defenders with motions and brief that incorporate the latest and greatest social science data.
Guests:
Eve Primus, Professor of Law, University of Michigan
Resources:
Data for Defenders
MDefenders
https://www.law.umich.edu/mdefenders/Pages/default.aspx
Follow Eve on Twitter
Eve’s Law Review Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4232443
Contact Eve
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167: Rebuilding the New York Legal Aid Society's Union Strength w/Jane Fox
There may be no Public Defender Union with as long and storied of a history as the New York Legal Aid Society’s, and today, Hunter spoke with Chapter Chair of the NY Legal Aid Union, Jane Fox, to discuss the efforts to revitalize that very union. The challenges facing Jane and all Public Defenders in New York City are immense. The crushing criminal caseload is compounded by the cost-of-living crisis impacting the attorneys, staff, and their clients. If Public Defenders and their clients are going to thrive in these difficult conditions, it will be thanks to the tireless efforts of Jane and the Legal Aid Union.
Guests:
Jane Fox, Chapter Chair, NY Legal Aid Society Union, Association of Legal Aid Attorneys
Resources:
ALAA
Follow Jane on Twitter
https://twitter.com/foxsquire?lang=en
Email Jane
Issues with Mold in Building
https://nysfocus.com/2023/08/28/legal-aid-society-mold-brooklyn
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166: How the Deck is Heavily Stacked Against Federal Public Defenders w/Colin Prince and Jay McEntire
From the limited discovery, limited access to witnesses, and the limited resources, Federal Public Defenders around the country are fighting for their clients at a massive disadvantage. Today, Hunter spoke with two Federal Public Defenders, Colin Prince and Jay McEntire, to try and understand how and why the deck is so heavily stacked against them. Drawing from their experience as corporate civil litigators, Colin and Jay demonstrate how our society empowers those fighting over money while simultaneously disempowers those fighting for their liberty.
Guests:
Colin Prince, Chief Appellate Attorney, Federal Defenders of Eastern Washington and Idaho
Jay McEntire, Senior Litigator, Federal Defenders of Eastern Washington and Idaho
Resources:
Federal Defenders of Eastern Washington and Idaho
https://www.fdewi.org/index.html
Impending Cuts to Federal Public Defender System
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165: Will a New Data Driven Approach Be the Key to the Future for Montana Public Defense w/Brett Schandelson
Montana Public Defense has seen a lot in the 21st century. A lawsuit in the early aughts lead to massive changes and the creation of the state public defender system. Now almost 20 years later, the Montana Public Defense system is still only treading water. Driven by an shortage of attorneys around the state and severe under pay, the system is looking for new, innovative ways to stay afloat. Joining Hunter to discuss these newer data driven approaches is Brett Schandelson, Director of the State Public Defender. With so few attorneys in so much of the state, the challenges ahead of Brett and his team are immense, but the changes he is implementing just might be what saves Public Defense in Montana.
Guests:
Brett Schandelson, Director, Montana Office of the State Public Defender
Resources:
Office of the State Public Defender
https://publicdefender.mt.gov/
Case Refusal Yellowstone County
https://apnews.com/article/courts-montana-billings-5c9b515e281d4f53ca02bc4880226bf8
Broken Defense Coverage of Montana Public Defense
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164: "Why Would You Even Ask That?" The Absurdity of America's Youth Justice System w/Iliana Pujols
What can we learn from the successes of other countries? Today, Hunter spoke with Iliana Pujols to compare and contrast the youth criminal legal system where she works in Connecticut and Norway. In particular, we discuss just how far removed from accepted international practices of youth justice, and what needs to be done to break through the American exceptionalism that stops Americans from learning from other countries.
Guests:
Iliana Pujols, Policy Director at Connecticut Justice Alliance, Young Justice Leader Pathfinders for Peace, Justice and Inclusive Societies
Resources:
Pathfinders Young Justice Leaders
Contact Iliana
Connecticut Justice Alliance
Follow Iliana on Twitter
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163: Imagining Something Better than Washington's Patchwork Public Defender System w/Larry Jefferson
As one of the many states without a unified system of Public Defense, the consistency of Public Defense and access to legal services from county to county is wildly inconsistent. Joining Hunter to speak about this justice by geography model is Larry Jefferson, Director of the Office of Public Defense. Despite the name, Larry and his office only hold limited ability to direct and assist in the delivery of Public Defense across Washington. Nonetheless, Larry has dreams of a completely different model for justice that he hopes his office can help lead the state towards.
Guests:
Larry Jefferson Jr., Director, Washington Office of Public Defense,
Resources:
Washington OPD
State v Blake
https://law.justia.com/cases/washington/supreme-court/2021/96873-0.html
Email Larry
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162: How the Georgia AG is using RICO to Punish Free Speech and Cop City Protesters w/Devin Franklin
Today, Hunter is once again joined by Devin Franklin from the Southern Center for Human Rights to discuss the latest violation of civil liberties in the state of Georgia. Today, they are discussing the recent indictment levied against 61 cop city protesters. As you read over the 100+ page indictment, you will find one consistent theme: the Attorney General of Georgia is doing everything in his power to cage as many people as possible who would dare challenge the power, plans, and policy of the state of Georgia.
Guests:
Devin Franklin, Movement Policy Counsel, Southern Center for Human Rights
Resources:
Cop City Indictment
Coverage on the Indictment
YSL Indictment
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/young-slime-life-indictment.pdf
Intercept Coverage of the Murder of Tortugita
https://theintercept.com/2023/04/20/atlanta-cop-city-protester-autopsy/
Southern Center for Human Rights
https://twitter.com/southerncenter
https://www.schr.org/protecting-dissent-schr-launches-first-amendment-lawyer-bridge/
Stop Cop City
Follow Devin on Twitter
https://twitter.com/BrotherInLawATL
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161: The NAPD's Plan to Leverage the National Workload Study for Policy Victories w/Cydni Sanchez
Today, Hunter spoke with President of the National Association for Public Defense’s Board of Directors, Cydni Sanchez, to discuss the NAPD’s plan to help Public Defenders around the country implement the new National Workload Standards. With her experience in New Mexico, Cydni is expertly situated to dissect the difficulties of making a workload study like this turn into meaningful policy victories.
Guests:
Cydni Sanchez, President, Board of Directors, National Association for Public Defense, Deputy Chief Public Defender, New Mexico
Resources:
Read the Full Report Here
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA2559-1.html
New Mexico ABA report
New Mexico Public Defender Website
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160: Unveiling the National Public Defender Workload Standards and the Strategy to Implement Them w/Stephen Hanlon
Today, Hunter once again sat down with Stephen Hanlon to talk Public Defender Workload Studies. This time, they spoke about the brand new National Workload Standards for Public Defense that are finally out as of today! While it is extremely easy to be pessimistic about the potential for a workload study to lead to meaningful change in Public Defense, this could be a water shed moment. This report provides Public Defenders around the country with the data they need to stand up for themselves and their clients as the workload crisis rages on.
Guests:
Stephen Hanlon, Public Interest Attorney
Resources:
Read the Full Report Here
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA2559-1.html
Lawyer Hanlon
Stephen Hanlon Law Review Article
https://www.slu.edu/law/law-journal/pdfs/issues-archive/v61-no4/stephen_hanlon_article.pdf
State v Waters
https://casetext.com/case/state-ex-rel-mo-pub-defender-commn-v-waters
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159: The Communication Breakdown Eroding Trust in the Colorado Public Defender System w/Kiyomi Bolick, Mike Kubicek, and Oliver Rose Katz
Last year, Hunter spoke with members of the newly formed Defenders Union of Colorado (DUC) to discuss their reason for unionization and the challenges facing all employees of Colorado Public Defense. Today, Hunter is once again speaking with DUC, but this time, they discussed the complete failure of leadership to be transparent with them and how that is eroding trust between the two.
Guests:
Kiyomi Bolick, Long Time Colorado Public Defender and a Founding Organizer of DUC
Mike Kubicek, Investigator, Durango Office of the Public Defender
Oliver Rose Katz, Administrative Assistant, Brighton Office of the Public Defender
Resources:
Colorado Public Defenders Raise Concern over Pay
https://www.denverpost.com/2023/05/17/colorado-public-defenders-pay-petition-union-16-million/
Follow DUC on Twitter
https://twitter.com/DefenderUnionCO
Follow DUC on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/defenders_union_of_colorado/
Colorado Public Defender
https://www.coloradodefenders.us/
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158: What is Causing the Indiana Public Defender System to Fail w/Ashley Spolarich, Deana Martin, and Joel Schumm
When the Sixth Amendment Center came to Indiana, it left no doubt that Public Defense in the state was failing. Now seven years later, almost nothing has changed. How can that be possible? To answer that question and exploring why Indiana’s Public Defender system is still failing, Hunter spoke with three Public Defenders, Ashley Spolarich, Deana Martin, and Joel Schumm, from Indiana.
Guests:
Ashley Spolarich, Chief Deputy Public Defender, Montgomery County Indiana
Deana Martin, Major Case/Forensic Attorney, Marion County
Professor Joel Schumm, Clincal Professor, Indiana Robert McKinney School of Law
Resources:
Sixth Amendment Center Report
Indiana Public Defender Task Force
Indiana Workload Report
https://www.in.gov/publicdefender/files/The-Indiana-Project_FINAL.pdf
Lawsuits in various counties in the state
· Johnson County: https://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/45762-coa-affirms-dismissal-of-johnson-county-public-defender-suit
· Allen County: https://www.southbendtribune.com/story/news/crime/2016/01/06/suit-filed-against-allen-county-over-public-defender-system/46421583/
(Docket: https://clearinghouse.net/case/15792/?docket_page=2#docket)
Indiana Lawyer Article on Shortage of Public Defenders
Indiana Public Defender Council
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157: The Racist History of the "Child Welfare" System w/Ieshaah Murphy
Today, Hunter spoke with Professor Ieshaah Murphy to understand how the racist history of the “Child Welfare” should inform our understanding of that very systems today. When analyzing a system for any type of systemic bias, it is essential to understand bot the past and present of the system. If a system that claims to be race neutral, but started with a clear racial animus and continues to produce racially disparate outcomes, it is compelling evidence that its bias initial purpose may still be active to this day.
Guests:
Professor Ieshaah Murphy, Assistant Professor of Law and Director of the Criminal Defense and Racial Justice Clinic, University of DC David A. Clarke School of Law
Resources:
Follow Professor Murphy on Twitter
https://twitter.com/IeshaahMurphy
Professor Murphy’s Faculty Page
https://law.udc.edu/ieshaah-murphy/
Fostering False Identities Book
https://www.amazon.com/Fostering-False-Identity-Welfare-Systems/dp/B08TQGG3FR
Torn Apart
https://www.amazon.com/Torn-Apart-Destroys-Families-Abolition/dp/1541675444
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156: Death in Custody: How America Ignores the Truth and What We Can Do about It w/Jay Aronson
How many people die in custody? Such a simple question, but no one can actually tell you the answer. Today, Hunter spoke with Professor Jay Aronson to discuss his new book Death in Custody: How America Ignores the Truth and What We Can Do about It to explore the reasons why.
Guests:
Professor Jay Aronson, Professor of Science, Technology, and Society, Carnegie Mellon University
Resources:
Buy the book (use code HTWN)
https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/authors/jay-d-aronson-phd
Professor Aronson Faculty Page
https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/history/people/faculty/aronson.html
Follow Professor Aronson on Twitter
https://twitter.com/jaydaronson
Listen to the Official Ignorance Podcast!
https://open.spotify.com/show/5n5OPnSGj3A3RYFvcJIH62?si=J65-gXWlRrWhSiaU8m7pZw
https://officialignorance.com/earl-faison-and-the-origins-of-the-official-ignorance-project/
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155: How the NY Legal Aid Created a Digital Forensics Unit to Push Back on the Power of Police and Prosecutors w/Jerome Greco
For cops and prosecutors, the idea of not having access to their own forensic departments is almost inconceivable, but for Public Defense, that is the standard practice. Today, Hunter sat down with Jerome Greco, the supervising attorney for one of the only digital forensics unit in the country made specifically available to Public Defenders. With the rapid expansion of surveillance and digital technology in the hands of police and prosecutors, Public Defense should look to the success of Jerome and his team as a potential model to fight back.
Guests:
Jerome Greco, Digital Forensics Supervising Attorney, New York Legal Aid Society
Resources:
Follow Jerome on Twitter
https://twitter.com/JeromeDGreco
Email Jerome
Upturn
NACDL 4th Amendment Center
https://www.nacdl.org/Landing/FourthAmendmentCenter
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154: Putting the Genie Back in the Bottle: Why the Use and Expansion of RICO is Bad w/Martin Sabelli
Today, Hunter is once again joined by former NACDL President Martin Sabelli to discuss the criminal charge that everyone is talking about, RICO. As with many laws on the books, RICO started out designed to target a specific group of people: leadership of the Mafia. Also like many laws on the books, it was written in such an ambiguous and wide manner that prosecutors could use it far beyond its intended purpose. Over the years, RICO has been used against targets never intended or envisioned by those who originally supported the law, and today’s episode is all about understanding how that happened, why it happened, and what, if anything, we can do to try and stop the creative and expansive use of a law that infringes on the rights of people every time a prosecutor decides to be “creative” with its use of RICO.
Guests:
Martin Sabelli, Former President of NACDL and longtime Federal Criminal Defense Attorney
Resources:
Resources on RICO Cases
1st Amendment and RICO
https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1237/rico-laws
Issues with RICO
https://sites.law.duq.edu/juris/2021/11/17/the-checkered-past-and-present-of-the-rico-act/
Fani Willis Prosecution of Teachers
https://theappeal.org/atlanta-cheating-prosecutions-fani-willis-rico/
Issues with RICO
https://www.independent.org/publications/TIR/article.asp?id=215
Email Martin
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153: The Coalition Fighting to End the Trial Penalty w/Martin Sabelli and Nathan Pysno
Despite being the bedrock of our criminal legal system, “the jury trial is an exceptional rather than a commonplace outcome.” Today, Hunter is joined by Martin Sabelli and Nathan Pysno to discuss somethings leading to the erosion of the jury trial. Specifically, they discuss how harsh sentences enable coercive plea bargaining and enshrine the “trial penalty”. Few if any other Constitutionally protected rights lead to a person being punished for using them, but the trial penalty is nothing more than punishing people for forcing the government to prove a person committed a crime at trial.
Guests:
Martin Sabelli, Former President of NACDL and Criminal Defense Attorney
Nathan Pysno, Director of Economic Crime and Procedural Justice, NACDL
Resources:
ABA Report on Jury Trials Disappearing
https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2020/12/report-jury-trials/
ABA Plea Bargaining Task Force Report
https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/criminaljustice/plea-bargain-tf-report.pdf
NACDL Trial Penalty
https://www.nacdl.org/Document/TrialPenaltySixthAmendmentRighttoTrialNearExtinct
End the Trial Penalty
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152: The Political and Personal Agenda Behind Governor DeSantis' Removal of State Attorney Monique Worrell w/Andrew Darling
In the past few weeks, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis decided to abuse his powers once again as the head of state and remove an elected State Attorney. This time, the 9th Judicial Circuit State Attorney Monique Worrell landed in Governor DeSantis’ cross hairs. Today, Hunter is joined by Central Florida Criminal Defense Attorney Andrew Darling to discuss what happened. If you take the story that Governor DeSantis proclaims on face value, you could be led to believe that Worrell was a rouge prosecutor allowing crime to go unpunished. As Andrew points out however, Worrell was a moderately progressive prosecutor who’s biggest deviation from the norm was wanting to pursue rehabilitation for youthful offenders, keeping low level drug offenses in diversionary programs, and a willingness to pursue cases against Police for their abuse of power.
Guests:
Andrew Darling, Criminal Defense Attorney, Central Florida
Resources:
Gov DeSantis’ Executive Order Removing State Attorney Monique Worrell
Twitter Thread Explaining the Falsities in Gov DeSantis’ Claims
https://twitter.com/LutherEvers/status/1689672379776073728
Warren v. DeSantis
https://casetext.com/case/warren-v-desantis-1
Follow Andrew on
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MrDarling4
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mrdarling4/
Darling Law: https://darlinglaw.com/
Orange County Court of Clerks 2023CF003924-A-O
https://www.myorangeclerk.com/
Indictment of Orange County Deputy Bruce Stolk
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151: Without Trust Between Client and Counsel, Litigation is Limited w/Alexander Kostal
Trust between Public Defenders and the communities they serve has been a long running theme of the show. The benefits of such a trusting relationship seem obvious, but today, Hunter spoke with Wisconsin Public Defender, Alexander Kostal, to discuss an extremely important outcome from a trusting attorney/client relationship: increased opportunity for litigation. In order to push back against the overreaches of police and prosecutors, cases need to be heard in an open court room, but what if the client does not trust you to take it that far? How do you earn back that trust? What can institutions in public defense do to try and make it easier for communities to trust Public Defenders? All this and more explored on today’s episode!
Guests:
Alexander Kostal, Assistant State Public Defender, Wisconsin
Resources:
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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150: To Fix Detroit Public Defense, There Must be a Fair Contract for the Neighborhood Defender Services of Detroit w/Cait De Mott Grady, Tom Molina-Duarte, Jonathan Roberts
In back-to-back years, the Sixth Amendment Center revealed that Public Defense in Detroit was failing. Both the contract and institutional Public Defender were failing to provide competent counsel in every case. For the largest city in Michigan, the future seemed dire. Then, the Neighborhood Defender Services extended their non-profit Public Defender Model to the city, and for the first time in a long time, there was a glimmer of hope for holistic defense in Detroit. Joining Hunter to speak about the challenges, trials, and hope for a better future for Detroit Public Defense is Cait De Mott Grady, Jonathan Roberts, and Tom Molina-Durate from the NDS Detroit Union. As with most union episodes, the demands of the union are similar: better pay for core staff and meaningful restrictions on workload. Hopefully, the contract negotiations will support the struggling workers of NDS Detroit and provide a spark for the continued improvement of Public Defense in Detroit.
Guests:
Cait De Mott Grady, Staff Attorney and Union Member, NDS Detroit
Jonathan Roberts, Staff Attorney and Union Member, NDS Detroit
Tom Molina-Duarte, Social Worker and Union Member, NDS Detroit
Resources:
NDS Detroit
https://neighborhooddefender.org/locations/detroit/
Sixth Amendment Center Wayne County Reports
https://sixthamendment.org/wayne-county-report/
https://sixthamendment.org/wayne-county-report-2019/
Follow the Union on Twitter
Follow the Union on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/ndsunion/
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@PDefenselessPod
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BONUS EPISODE: Another Not Guilty Podcast: Murder-ring The Prosecution's Theory w/David Moore and Hillary King
Recently, Hunter was a guest host on the Another Not Guilty Podcast, and he is happy to share that episode today as a bonus show!
The Another Not Guilty Podcast details true crime's forbidden stories of the criminal system from the insiders' perspective of public defenders told with a little humor, drama, and passion for criminal justice reform. Visit them at www.anothernotguiltypod.com
In this week's episode we have Hunter Parnell from the Public Defenseless podcast as a co-host. And also our guest PD is Hillary from Salt Lake City who shares her story of walking her client out the front door on a murder charge stemming from when he was 16 years old and being in the car when the driver shot and killed someone and blamed him.
You subscribe to Another Not Guilty Podcast on
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5TxGjq1zzMh5F6bHG8wvEE
Or Follow them on
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AnotherNG_pod
149: It's Time to Abolish the Legalized Theft that is Civil Forfeiture w/Dan Alban
Sometimes referred to as Civil Asset Forfeiture, today’s episode is an examination of the legalized theft that is civil forfeiture. Joining Hunter to unpack the intricacies of this topic, is Dan Alban. In his role at the Institute for Justice, Dan is one of the people at the forefront of people pushing back against the practice that flips the concept of innocent until proven guilty on its head. As you will hear on this episode, the complex legal nature of this topic masks a process that most Americans, when exposed to it, will viciously oppose.
Guests:
Dan Alban, Senior Attorney at the Institute for Justice/Co-Director of the Campaign to end Forfeiture Abuse
Resources:
Richardson v. $20,771.00 U.S. Currency
More on Richardson Case
Policing for Profit Report
https://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-3/
End Forfeiture Abuse
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148: Jury Nullification, Conscientious Acquittal, and the Fight To Regain Jury Independence w/Clark Neily
Whether you call it Jury Nullification or Conscientious Acquittal, today’s episode is all about the fight to reinvigorate the jury trial and the independence of the jury. Joining Hunter to discuss is Clark Neily, Senior VP for Legal Studies at the CATO Institute. Before America was even a country, the power of a jury to acquit someone of a charge they were legally guilty of because the jury disagree with the law as applied in this case was unquestioned. Over time however, prosecutors and judges pushed for and enabled the gradual erosion of the juries power. Now, more than 250 years after the founding, the jury trial is little more than a relic of the past, and even a whisper of jury independence in a court room can get jurors removed from a case. How did this happen and what can be done to reverse this trend? Find out by listening to today’s episode!
Guests:
Clark Neily, Senior Vice President for Legal Studies, CATO Institute
Resources:
Trial of John Peter Zenger
https://www.ushistory.org/us/7c.asp
Follow Clark on Twitter (not calling it X not even if there is a fire)
https://twitter.com/conlawwarrior/with_replies
CATO Jury Independence
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147: Because of its Systemic Indifference to Suffering, Oklahoma Keeps Punishing Domestic Violence Survivors w/Colleen McCarty and Leslie Briggs
A little less than a year ago, Hunter spoke with Alexandra Bailey of the Sentencing Project to explore why states like Oklahoma so readily punish the survivors of domestic violence. Today, Hunter returns to Oklahoma to speak with Colleen McCarty and Leslie Briggs from Oklahoma Appleseed to discuss their work in trying to push back against the expansion of the carceral state in Oklahoma. In particular, this conversation centers in large part about the Wrongful Conviction of April Wilkens. With their podcast “Panic Button” Colleen, Leslie and all of Appleseed hope to expose the injustice in April’s case, but also hope people realize that April is one of many women who face the power of the carceral state who are survivors of domestic violence.
Guests:
Colleen McCarty, Founding Executive Director, Oklahoma Appleseed
Leslie Briggs, Legal Director, Oklahoma Appleseed
Resources:
Visit OK Appleseed
Follow OK Appleseed on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/OKAppleseedCenter/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ok_appleseed
Twitter https://twitter.com/OK_Appleseed
Listen to the Panic Button Podcast
https://panicbuttontheaprilwilkenscase.podbean.com/
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/panic-button/id1630829857
Oklahoma Bill to Help Domestic Violence Survivors
Oklahoma School Superintendent no China in Schools
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146: The Fulton County Jail, Cop City, and the Deafening Silence of the Georgia Public Defense Council w/Devin Franklin
In the state of Georgia, the Public Defender Counsel lacks independence from the Executive Branch. As a result, their ability to speak out on social issues is severely limited. For former Georgia Public Defender Devin Franklin, the inability to speak out against police brutality in the wake of the murder of George Floyd drove him out of a decade long career in Public Defense. For him, and for Hunter, the advocacy of a Public Defender cannot end in the four walls of the court room. Tune in to today's conversation to hear about the Fulton County Jail, Cop City, and what the Public Defender Council of Georgia should be doing to call out these injustices
Guests:
Devin Franklin, Movement Policy Counsel, Southern Center for Human Rights
Resources:
Southern Center for Human Rights
Follow Devin on Twitter
https://twitter.com/BrotherInLawATL
Timeline of Cop City
https://scalawagmagazine.org/2023/05/cop-city-atlanta-history-timeline/
Autopsy of activist, Manuel Paez Teran , killed at Cop City
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/atlanta-cop-city-manuel-paez-teran-autopsy/
DOJ investigates Fulton County Jail
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/doj-investigation-fulton-county-jail-inmate-death-other-reports
Deaths in Fulton County Jail
https://theappeal.org/fulton-county-jail-deaths-spiked-2022-pad-funding/
Inside Fulton County Jail
Register for the SCHR Pain and Power: Confronting Police Violence in Atlanta Seminar August 19th at The King Center 449 Auburn Avenue Northeast Atlanta, GA 30312
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145: What Led to the Unionization of Maryland Public Defense w/Edie Fortuna and Jose Teneza
Crushing workloads. High Turnover Rates. Low Pay. This is not the first time these topics have been brought up on the show, but today, Hunter spoke with two Maryland Public Defenders, Edie Fortuna and Jose Teneza, to discuss how those factors drove the Public Defenders to unionize.
Guests:
Edie Fortuna, Assistant Public Defender, Maryland
Jose Teneza, Assistant Public Defender, Maryland
Resources:
Prepare Parole Maryland
Maryland Public Defender
Annual Reports
https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/25ind/html/61pubdr.html
2005 National Center for State Courts Workload Report
https://silo.tips/download/maryland-attorney-and-staff-workload-assessment-2005
Listen to Jose's Podcast
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/watch-skip/id1640540726
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@PDefenselessPod
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144: The Campaign to Close Rikers Island w/Richard Willstatter and Stan German
Today, Hunter spoke with two New York Criminal Defense Attorneys, Richard Willstatter and Stan Germán, to discuss the crisis at Rikers Island. For more than a decade, there has been a class action lawsuit against the city because of the inhumane conditions in the jails. Sadly, the calls for closure, reform, or receivership have continuously fallen on deaf ears. As a result, the death toll in Riker’s is reaching record highs. While there may be good news coming in the near term as people with power finally decide to act, it cannot be forgotten that with every passing day, the lives of every person in the jail are at risk.
Guests:
Richard Willstatter, Partner, Law Offices of Green and Willstatter
Stan Germán, Executive Director, New York County Defender Services
Resources:
NY Times Death Tracker at Rikers
https://www.nytimes.com/article/rikers-deaths-jail.html
Federal Prosecutor Urges Takeover of Rikers Island
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/17/nyregion/rikers-island-federal-takeover.html
NYCDS
Timeline of Events at Rikers
https://www.cityandstateny.com/politics/2023/07/timeline-closure-rikers-island/376662/
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143: The Never Ending Torture of Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri at Guantanamo Bay w/Annie Morgan
Today, Hunter is joined by Annie Morgan, a Criminal Defense Appeals Attorney with the Guantanamo Bay Military Commission Defense Organization, to continue to the story of Guantanamo Bay where John Baker left off. Once John had the defenders responsible for the al-Nashiri case move off, Annie Morgan and a new team of defenders tried to pick up the pieces. On today’s episode, we dive deeper in the war on terror, the legacy of the attack on the USS Cole, and what the never ending torture of al-Nashiri should mean to the every single American whose name it was done in.
Guests:
Annie Morgan, Criminal Defense Appeals Attorney, Military Commissions Defense Organization, Guantanamo Bay
Resources:
Bombing of the USS Cole
https://www.cnn.com/2013/09/18/world/meast/uss-cole-bombing-fast-facts/index.html
1998 Kenyan Embassy Bombings
https://www.state.gov/23rd-commemoration-of-the-august-7th-u-s-embassy-bombings/
Clinton Response to Embassy Bombings
Carol Rosenberg Writings on GITMO
https://www.nytimes.com/by/carol-rosenberg
Follow Carol on Twitter
https://twitter.com/carolrosenberg?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Follow GITMO Watch on Twitter
https://twitter.com/GitmoWatch?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
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142: The Fight for Human Rights at Guantanamo Bay w/John Baker
Today, Hunter kicks off this week’s theme of Guantanamo Bay coverage by speaking with BGen (Ret) John Baker. When John Baker took over as the lead defense counsel for the Military Commission Defense Organization at Guantanamo Bay, he could not imagine the abuse of power that he would go up against. From FBI informants being planted on the defense team, to classified surveillance of the conversations between defense counsel and client, and the brutal, nearly relentless torture of the detainees, John saw it all. Even with potential confinement looming over his head, John never stopped fighting for the rights of his clients.
Guests:
BGen (Ret) John Baker, Chief Public Defender of the Federal District of Western North Carolina
Resources:
John Baker Testimony to Senate Judiciary
https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Baker%20Testimony2.pdf
Guantánamo hearings halted amid accusations of FBI spying on legal team
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/14/guantanamo-bay-hearing-halted-fbi-spying
John Baker Confinement Story
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/03/john-baker-released-guantanamo-dispute-244523
Carol Rosenberg Writings on GITMO
https://www.nytimes.com/by/carol-rosenberg
Follow Carol on Twitter
https://twitter.com/carolrosenberg?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Follow John on Twitter
https://twitter.com/jgbaker1806?lang=en
Follow GITMO Watch on Twitter
https://twitter.com/GitmoWatch?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Baker v Spath
https://casetext.com/case/brigadier-gen-john-g-baker-us-marine-corps-v-spath
UN Report on GTMO
More from Nashiri Case
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141: The Horrifying Surveillance Tech Coming to a Neighborhood Near You w/Dhruv Mehrotra
With every passing day, a new technology becomes available for police, prosecutors and the state to further side step the Fourth Amendment. On today’s show, Hunter sat down with Dhruv Mehrotra, staff writer for Wired Magazine, to discuss the latest horrifying surveillance tech coming to a jurisdiction near you. Covenant Eyes started out as a way for couples and churches to “help” people fight they perceived to be an addiction to porn, but from the very beginning the obvious potential for abuse was on full display. Join Hunter and Dhruv as they unpack the story of how an entire family came under surveillance of the state merely because of an allegation.
Guests:
Dhruv Mehrotra, Staff Writer, Wired Magazine
Resources:
Check out all of Dhruv’s work here:
https://www.wired.com/author/dhruv-mehrotra/
Covenant Eyes writing
https://www.wired.com/story/anti-porn-covenant-eyes-bond-revoked/
https://www.wired.com/story/covenant-eyes-anti-porn-accountability-monitoring-apps/
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140: How to Use the Appellate System to Push Back on the Family Policing System w/Annick Lenoir-Peek
Continuing this weeks coverage of the family policing system, Hunter was joined by Annick Lenoir-Peek, a North Carolina Deputy Parent Defender. Just like Tuesday’s episode with Josh, Annick walks us through the hypocrisy inherent to the family policing system, but Annick also demonstrates a practical way for attorneys at any level to push back. By zealously bringing cases through the appellate system, Annick hopes she can continue to secure major victories for her clients in North Carolina and around the country.
Guests:
Annick Lenoir-Peek, North Carolina Deputy Parent Defender
Resources:
Jones v Hendrix
https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/jones-v-hendrix/
NCIDS.org
Contact Annick
annick.i.lenoir.peek@nccourts.org
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139: The Race and Class Dynamics Haunting the Connecticut Family Policing System w/Josh Michtom
Today’s episode kicks off these weeks focus on the family welfare system aka the family policing system. Hunter sat down with Josh Michtom, a senior assistant public defender in Juvenile representation. Despite the title, Josh primarily represents parents as the state attempts to take their children away. As with so much of our criminal legal system, the contours of the family policing system in Connecticut cannot be understood without first understanding the many racial, class, and gender based biased baked into it.
Guests:
Josh Michtom, Senior Assistant Public Defender in Juvenile representation, Connecticut
Resources:
Josh’s Article: A Call to Action for Parents' Lawyers in the Family Regulation System: Bearing Witness as Praxis and Practice in the Face of Structural Injustice
https://brooklynworks.brooklaw.edu/jlp/vol31/iss2/3/
McKeiver v Pennsylvania
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1970/322
Follow Josh on Twitter
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138: The Driving Force Behind the Growth of Santa Barbara Public Defense w/Deepak Budwani
Today, Hunter spoke with Deepak Budwani, the Chief Financial and Administrative Officer of the Santa Barbara Public Defender Office to discuss how he was able to grow the office 80% in just five years. Long time listeners of the show will know the emphasis on data collection and data analysis, and Deepak is the model for why those things are a must for public defense. In just under 90 days, Deepak helped open a new PD office in Idaho, and by taking the mindset from his time in the public sector, Deepak quickly grew that office by 50% in just three years. None of these massive success stories could have been possible if Deepak didn’t understand the importance of creating and utilizing systems and processes that could capture the data he needed to make meaningful budget requests!
Guests:
Deepak Budwani, Chief Financial and Administrative Officer, Santa Barbara Public Defense
Resources:
Contact Deepak
https://www.linkedin.com/in/deepak-budwani-57827042
Santa Barbara Public Defender
https://www.countyofsb.org/187/Public-Defender
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137: How the Civil Rights Corps is Uncovering and Challenging Prosecutorial Misconduct w/Peter Santina
Today, Hunter spoke with Civil Rights Corps’ Attorney Peter Santina to discuss their efforts in uncovering and challenging prosecutorial misconduct. From Alleghany County to San Francisco County, Peter and his team are those leading the charge in revealing the negligence, maleficence, and misconduct of prosecutors around the country. This episode, however, does offer a reminder that all of their actions are enabled by judges, politicians, and legal ethics bodies that sit by and do nothing to hold prosecutors accountable for their actions.
Guests:
Peter Santina, Managing Attorney of the Prosecutorial Accountability Project, Civil Rights Corps
Resources:
To do something about this, and raise awareness of this continuing racial discrimination, CRC worked with our AccountabilityNY professor partners to prepare and file 10 complaints against prosecutors alleging court findings of racial or religious discrimination. CRC also publicized the fact that an attorney for the NYPD union had once been a prosecutor who used a handwritten guide of racist and sexist tropes to select juries, leading to three reversals. Journalists at the Gothamist, The City, Queens Daily Eagle, and Davis Vanguard each wrote original stories about the discrimination complaints. CRC attorney Bina Ahmad appeared on WBAI radio and WNYC radio with Dexter Murray, a man personally victimized by this form of discrimination. Mr. Murray's powerful op-ed ran in the NY Daily News.
In San Francisco, nearly 1,000 people are past their last day for speedy trial, over 100 of whom are incarcerated, awaiting an unknown trial date. In a particular pending case, the San Francisco Public Defender’s Office asked the California Supreme Court to intervene and restore people’s speedy trial rights. In support of this petition, CRC filed an amicus brief to explain to the justices how the denial of speedy trial rights turns an already-flawed system of plea bargaining into a system of plea begging and unfairly extends the already-oppressive conditions of pretrial detention. CRC await the California Supreme Court’s decision.
The prosecutor’s choice to pursue or dismiss charges is one of their greatest powers and is ripe for abuse. As over 90 percent of criminal cases resolve by plea bargain, recent reports have exposed the troubling lack of transparency and oversight in this plea bargain system (2020 Vera Institute Report) and that innocent people plead guilty to crimes they did not commit (2023 American Bar Association Task Force Report).
In March 2023, the longtime Allegheny County District Attorney, Stephen Zappala, was in a contentious primary battle for reelection against the Chief Public Defender, who was also running for District Attorney. It was reported that after Zappala did not secure the Democratic Committee’s nomination, a supervisor in his office gave line prosecutors instructions that referenced the election. In the following days, two prosecutors were reported to refused to dismiss weak charges, and each prosecutor cited the election—and Zappala’s endorsement loss—in their explanation. CRC worked with two legendary professors, David Rudovsky (Penn Carey School of Law) and Jules Lobel (University of Pittsburgh School of Law), to prepare and file an ethics complaint with the Disciplinary Board of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania against Zappala. We included a 2021 incident where Zappala ordered his prosecutors to not offer any plea bargain to clients of a Black defense attorney who had criticized his office. A journalist at the PGH City Paper wrote about the complaint, interviewing Peter.
Civil Rights Corps
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136: If You Cannot Afford an Attorney, One Will not Be Appointed to You w/ Dr. Andrew Davies, Dr. Victoria Smiegocki, and Shelby Sirivore
On previous episodes, we have talked about the importance of data collection and collaboration with outside organizations to turn that data into meaningful talking points for policy change. On today’s show, Hunter was joined by three amazing data scientists from SMU’s Deason Center, Dr. Andrew Davies, Dr. Victoria Smiegocki, and Shelby Sirivore, to discuss some of their interesting data analysis on Public Defense in Texas. From appointment rates to the impacts of having a institutional public defense, today’s guests offer us a glimpse into the insights every state could glean if it only collected the data necessary for people like Andy, Victoria, and Shelby the chance to analyze it.
Guests:
Dr. Andrew Davies, Research Director, SMU Deason Criminal Justice Reform Center
Dr. Victoria Smiegocki, Assistant Research Director, SMU Deason Criminal Justice Reform Center
Shelby Sirivore, Research Project Coordinator
Resources:
SMU Deason Center
https://www.smu.edu/Law/Centers-and-Initiatives/Deason-Center
Texas Eligibility Standards
https://scholar.smu.edu/deasoncenter/8/
Rural Representation in Texas
https://digitalcommons.mainelaw.maine.edu/mlr/vol71/iss2/5/
Qualities of Public Defender Leader
https://smu.box.com/s/x0gjpz6py3wwcvlcdcxc8omnma55n7bd
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135: While She Breathes, She Hopes for a Better Future for South Carolina Public Safety w/Cameron Blazer
On today’s show, Hunter sat down with Cameron Blazer, the Circuit Public Defender in Charleston, South Carolina, to discuss the past, present, and future of Public Defense in the state. From the start of the show, Hunter has long wanted to discuss with more detail the South Carolina practice of non-attorneys serving as judges, but there is so much more to this episode than that. In an unusual turn of events, South Carolina has actually started to increase the funding for Public Defense, and in turn, people like Cameron are seizing the opportunity to make meaningful changes to both their practice and the lives of their clients.
Guests:
Cameron Blazer, Circuit Public Defender, 9th Circuit, South Carolina
Resources:
“When Your Judge Isn’t a Lawyer”
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/when-your-judge-isnt-a-lawyer/515568
“Lawsuit Challenges Rural Judges without Law Degrees Instructed to Oversee Jury Trials.”
“Rush To Judgement: How South Carolina’s Summary Courts Fail to Protect Constitutional Rights”.
“Summary Injustice: A Look at Constitutional Deficiencies in South Carolina’s Summary Courts”
“These Judges Can Have Less Training Than Barbers but Still Decide Thousands of Cases Each Year.”
After More Than Five Years of Litigation, Lexington County, S.C., Agrees to Dramatically Increase Funding for Indigent Defense
South Carolina Public Defender Commission
Follow Cameron on Twitter
https://twitter.com/cameronblazer?lang=en
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134: The Colorado Bond Law Enriching the Bail Bond Industry w/Katie Yens
It’s no secret that the Public Defenseless Podcast firmly stands in the “abolish cash bail” camp. On today’s episode, Hunter is joined by criminal defense attorney, Katie Yens, to demonstrate yet another reason why the practice must cease to exist. Despite, perhaps, good intentions of judges and prosecutors, the bond laws in Colorado allow for the bail bond industry to enrich themselves off the backs of those that can least afford it. Today’s conversation is all about this obscure, but deeply influential practice of bond forfeiture and revocation.
Guests:
Katie Yens, Criminal Defense Attorney, LFM Defense
Resources:
Email Katie
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133: The Tech Solutions that can Propel Public Defense into the Future w/Rocky Ramirez
A little over a year ago, Hunter spoke with Rocky Ramirez about how a simple bit of no-code programming was able to cut down appointment times from nearly a week to less than half a day. Today, Hunter invited Rocky back on the show to discuss the steps he’s taken over the past year in Bexar County to find tech solutions for the many issues with Public Defense. While the Managed Assigned Counsel system he operates in is unique, the theme of this episode applies equally to all practitioners of public defense: it is imperative that Public Defenders analyse what policies, procedures, and practices could be made more efficient with simple tech solutions!
Guests:
Rocky Ramirez, Law and Technology Resource Attorney, Bexar County, Texas
Resources:
Email Rocky:
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132: Autonomy to Decide: Managing an Effective Defense with a Challenging Client w/Randy Fiedler and Stacy Newman
Today, Hunter spoke with Randy Fiedler and Stacy Newman about the best ways to handle a challenging client. Whether it is due to mental illness, mistrust, or some other external factor, every public defender has at one point in time dealt with a client they would consider challenging. The question is then, what are the skills and best practices to foster the trusting relationship that is necessary to combat the challenges any client may present.
Guests:
Randy Fiedler, Public Defender, Nevada
Stacy Newman, Public Defender, Nevada
Resources:
McCoy v Louisiana
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-8255_i4ek.pdf
Autonomy Isn’t Everything
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2770&context=facpub
ABA standards on Mental Health
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131: How to Solve the Public Defender Shortage in Rural America w/Patrick Crowley, Michael Naughton and Jonathan Sacks
Today, Hunter spoke with Patrick Crowley, Michael Naughton and Jonathan Sacks to talk through the attorney shortage crisis in rural America and what we can do to reverse the trend. While today’s episode focuses a lot on what is happening in rural Michigan, make no mistake, this is a problem facing nearly every state in the country. As rural, small town America has declined over the past decades, it has become harder and harder to entice young public defenders, laden with outrageous student debt, to want to practice in the rural parts of a state. So what can be done? With this conversation, Hunter hopes to spark new conversations and solutions to a problem that is seemingly only getting worse as the years go by.
Guests:
Patrick Crowley, Chief Public Defender, Marquette County, Michigan
Michael Naughton, Attorney and Partner, North Coast Legal, PLC.
Jonathan Sacks, Director, Michigan State Appellate Defender Office
Resources:
Michael’s Report on the Issue
https://michiganidc.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/M.-Naughton-Report-Attorney-Shortages.pdf
SADO.org
MIDC
Marquette County Public Defender
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130: Poverty, Prison, and a Path to Redemption w/Champ Napier
Today, Hunter spoke with Chris "Champ" Napier. When Champ was only four years old when he witnessed his father's murder. By the time he was thirteen, Napier had lived in seven different homes in seven different ghettos. Biologically and socially, he was raised in a pool of piranhas, barbarians, and sharks. At eighteen, Napier was convicted of killing a man and was sent to prison. This memoir narrates Napier's story as he navigates a childhood of poverty in Prichard, Alabama; serves more than a decade and a half in prison; and transforms his life by becoming Muslim and devoting his life to Allah. We were so broke I had to eat dry saltine crackers or ketchup sandwiches with the end parts of the bread and drink sugar water, when we didn't have kool-aid. These times were hard for us. I can recall a lot of times on the weekend that someone from the club or from somewhere would burglarize our house and we would have to play like we were asleep until they left. The only thing they could not steal was a small black and white TV and portable radio.
Guests:
Champ Napier, Client Advocate, Mobile, Alabama
Resources:
Champ Napier Story
https://alabamafairjustice.org/stories-chris-champ-napier
Champ Napier Book
https://www.amazon.com/Poverty-Prison-Frustrations-My-Past/dp/1542983398
Champ’s Website
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129: It's Time to Value Paralegals and Social Workers as much as Attorneys w/ Latosha Watts and Taneal Behrens
Today, Hunter spoke with Latosha Watts and Taneal Behrens to highlight the important role that paralegals and social workers play in a Public Defender Office. To date, we have touched a lot on the need for Public Defender Offices to incorporate more social workers, but we have not had the opportunity to talk about the important role paralegals provide an office. With more than 2 decades of experience between them in the role of paralegal, Latosha and Taneal provided excellent insight on the pathway for public defense to value paralegals and social workers just as much as they value attorneys.
Guests:
Latosha Watts, Paralegal, Chesapeake Public Defender Office, Virginia
Taneal Behrens, Sentencing Specialist, Charleston Public Defender Office, South Carolina
Resources:
Email Latosha
Email Taneal
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128: Fostering the Public Voice of the Public Defender w/Kay Levine and Russell Gold
Today, Hunter spoke with two law professors, Kay Levine and Russell Gold, to discuss their law review article calling for an increase in the public advocacy of public defenders. As a natural extension of the main goals of the show, Hunter loved exploring the potential political power public defenders could wield if they were more vocal. Interestingly as well, both Kay and Russell offered important juxtapositions between public defenders, prosecutors, and corporate attorneys and the way each engages with public advocacy out of the court room.
Guests:
Kay Levine, Professor of Law, Emory Law School
Russell Gold, Professor of Law, Alabama University School of Law
Resources:
Public Voice of the Defender Law Review Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4416723
Kay’s Article on the FL Prosecutors
Kay’s Professor Page
https://law.emory.edu/faculty/faculty-profiles/levine-profile.html
Russell Gold Professor Page
https://www.law.ua.edu/directory/People/view/Russell_Gold
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127: Secrets of the Killing State: How the Truth of Lethal Injection Could End the Death Penalty w/Corinna Lain
Today, Hunter spoke with Law Professor Corinna Lain to discuss her career of research around the death penalty and lethal injection. While it may seem strange to hyper focus on lethal injection, there is something to be said about understanding how and why lethal injection became the defacto method for state sanctioned murder. When lethal injection was offered to the American people, it was designed to do one simple thing: hide the reality of state sponsored murder. So long as people could look away from the violence of the state, they could place execution out of mind. In doing so, the practice could continue in relative secrecy. Today’s episode is about lifting the shroud on that secrecy to examine the way the lethal injection is just as, if not more, violent, cruel, and unusual and any other form of execution.
Guests:
Corrina Lain, SD Roberts and Sandra Moore Professor of Law, Richmond School of Law
Resources:
Can Europe end the Death Penalty? https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/02/can-europe-end-the-death-penalty-in-america/283790/
US Botched Executions
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/botched-executions
Execution of Clayton Lockett
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/13/botched-oklahoma-execution-clayton-lockett-bloody-mess
Corinna Lain Faculty Page
https://law.richmond.edu/faculty/clain/
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126: From Portland to Klamath Falls, Public Defense in Oregon is on Life Support w/Lee Wachocki and Eve Costello
Last year, Hunter spoke with Oregon Public Defender Chris O’Connor to discuss the public defender crisis in Oregon, and today, Hunter once again returns to Oregon to see what has changed. Joining Hunter to discuss the issue is Eve Costello, a contract PD in Klamath Falls, and Lee Wachocki, a PD in Multnomah County. Each of these attorneys bring with them an insight into the many ways that Public Defense is failing in Oregon from the urban center of Portland to the rural areas of Klamath Falls. While there are no easy solutions to the issues, it may be time for the state to seriously consider moving to a structure that enables the defense bar to act in a unified manner.
Guests:
Lee Wachocki, Public Defender, Multnomah County
Eve Costello, Contract Public Defender, Klamath Falls
Resources:
Multnomah County Public Defender
https://sixthamendment.org/know-your-state/oregon/
Vice Investigative Reporting on Public Defender Crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-ENDjlvgLs
‘No sense of justice’: Hundreds cycling through Oregon courts without public defenders
http://%20https/www.oregonlive.com/crime/2022/09/no-sense-of-justice-1300-criminal-cases-in-limbo-as-oregons-public-defender-shortage-mounts.html
https://oregoncapitalchronicle.com/2022/08/18/board-fires-head-of-oregons-public-defense-agency/
Oregon Public Defense Law Suit
ABA Report on Oregon Public Defense
Oregon public defender asks court to withdraw overworked attorneys, dismiss cases
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/03/16/public-defense-oregon-attorneys-dismiss-cases/
Oregon’s public defender crisis impacts Jackson County
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/05/01/oregons-public-defender-crisis-impacts-jackson-county/
Attorney Shortage in Rural America
https://www.nhbr.com/lack-of-rural-lawyers-leaves-much-of-america-without-support/
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125: You Might Go to Prison Even Though You're Innocent w/Justin Brooks
On previous episodes, Hunter spoke with Chris Fabricant and Daniel Medwed to discuss various aspects of the innocence movement. With Chris, they discussed the type of junk science that contributes to wrongful convictions. With Daniel, the discussed the unnecessary legal processes and hurdles that stand in the way of getting people out of prison once they are there. Today, Hunter sat down with another lawyer, author, and leader in the innocence movement, Justin Brooks, to discuss the many other things that contribute to sending people wrongfully to prison. As the founder and director of the California Innocence Project, Justin has seen it all, and today, he is here to share his experiences with you so you can understand how you might go to prison even though you’re innocent.
Guests:
Justin Brooks, Founder and Director of the California Innocence Project
Resources:
Buy Justin’s Book
https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520386839/you-might-go-to-prison-even-though-youre-innocent
John Stoll’s Case
https://californiainnocenceproject.org/read-their-stories/john-stoll/
California Innocence Project
https://californiainnocenceproject.org/
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124: The Many Ways Alabama Denies People a Second Chance After Leaving Prison w/Stacey Fuller and Kathleen Henderson
Today, we return to once again to the state of Alabama to speak with Stacey Fuller and Kathleen Henderson. If you will recall, Stacey joined Hunter in his conversation with Leah Nelson to discuss the fines and fees that keep Alabamans from accessing a meaningful second chance. At the end of that episode, Stacey mentioned the Felony ID card the state required her always have on her. That conversation plays directly into this one as we examine the other onerous conditions the state of Alabama places on those returning from incarceration. Join Hunter, Kathleen, and Stacey as we wade through the minefield that the formerly incarcerated must navigate to avoid returning to jail.
Guests:
Stacey Fuller, Community Outreach Coordinator, Tennessee
Kathleen Henderson, Re-Entry Case Manager, Alabama Apple Seed
Resources:
Alabama Appleseed
Alabama Driver’s License Bill
Alabama Prison Funding
Alabama Trial Penalty
https://www.al.com/news/2023/04/whitmire-alabama-lawmakers-trial-tax-bill-will-cost-us.html
Alabama Inmate Frozen to Death
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123: How a Vicious Union Busting Campaign Could Cripple Louisville Public Defense w/Cat Vining and Morgan King
On last week’s show, Hunter spoke with Babatunde Aremu and demonstrated the ways in which a Public Defender Office could be unionized without causing strife between leadership and line public defenders. Unfortunately today’s episode demonstrates the worst possible scenario for a unionization effort. Hunter sat down with Cat Vining and Morgan King, line public defenders in the Louisville Metro Public Defender Office, to discuss why they unionized and the incredible efforts that leadership took to make sure the union would be crushed. Unlike the rest of the state, Louisville Public Defense historically existed outside of the control of the Depart of Public Advocacy, but when the office decided to unionize, the powers that be stepped in to make a change. Despite the Governor vetoing the bill that would bring the office into the state system (while also calling out the legislation as retribution), the Louisville Metro Public Defender Office now sits on the precipice of a quick, ill planned ascension into the state system. So what comes next for those who rely on the services of the Louisville Metro Public Defender?
Guest:
Cat Vining, Line Public Defender, Louisville Metro Public Defender
Morgan King, Line Public Defender, Louisville Metro Public Defender
Resources
Folder containing internal emails and other correspondence from Louisville Metro Public Defender Office
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1X8zNcYWtWHMxia1OW1fIEct3LlTI0cQb?usp=sharing
Brief overview of what the Kentucky Supreme Court said, as well as a link to the opinion by the Kentucky Supreme Court as well
Article about HB 568 --> https://www.wdrb.com/news/louisville-public-defenders-concerned-about-state-legislation-that-would-change-how-they-get-funding/article_93e36c90-ba37-11ed-8dc9-a773424b6481.html
Gov. Beshear Veto --> https://www.wdrb.com/news/politics/gov-beshear-vetoes-bill-related-to-louisville-public-defenders-office-merging-with-state/article_bb4d6d5e-caad-11ed-b0e0-dbef141919b1.html
Leo Smith's Campaign Contributions --> https://secure.kentucky.gov/kref/publicsearch/AllContributors?FirstName=Leo&LastName=Smith&FromOrganizationName=&ElectionDate=01%2F01%2F0001&City=&State=&Zip=&Employer=&Occupation=&OtherOccupation=&MinAmount=&MaxAmount=&MinimalDate=&MaximalDate=&ContributionMode=&ContributionSearchType=All&PageSize=10&PageIndex=0&ReportId=
- this link hopefully goes straight to Leo Smith's campaign donations, but if not, that website is https://secure.kentucky.gov/kref/publicsearch/AllContributors and you can search Leo Smith's name to see his contribution to James Nemes in 2022, the same state Represenative who filed HB 568 merging our office into the state agency
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122: How the Municipal Public Defenders of Aurora, Colorado Fight Back Against Incompetence, Corruption, and Malpractice
On today’s bonus show, Hunter provides updates on the plans for the show and what he learned from his internship at the Aurora Municipal Public Defender Office.
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121: 50 Shades of Grey Goes to Court: How to Present BDSM and Non-Monogamy in Court w/Jill Weinberg
Today, Hunter spoke with Jill Weinberg, Assistant Professor of Sociology at Tufts University, to discuss the difficulties and strategies of discussing BDSM and other alternative sexual practices in the court room. For many, 50 Shades of Grey is the only exposure to alternative sexual practices so how should lawyers prepare juries, judges, and even themselves for when their case revolves around one of these topics? From the complexities of consent in BDSM relationships to navigating polyamorous relationships, today’s episode is all about the ways attorneys need to confront the biases people hold about alternative sexual practices.
Guest:
Jill Weinberg, Assistant Professor of Sociology, Tufts University
Resources
Professor Jill Weinberg’s Faculty Page
https://as.tufts.edu/sociology/people/faculty/jill-weinberg
Professor Jill Weinberg’s Book
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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120: The Bronx Defenders' Transformation from Scabs to Unionization w/Babatunde Aremu
When most in the Public Defender world think about the Bronx Defenders, they think of an office at the forefront of imagining a new path forward for Public Defense. Despite this, the Bronx Defenders sat as outlier amongst the New York City Public Defender Offices as one of the last who were not unionized. Today, Hunter spoke with Babatunde Aremu, President of the new Bronx Defenders Union, to discuss the interesting history of the office’s relationship with unions, his work as a civil public defender, and the example other offices can learn from the leadership at the Bronx Defenders willingness to accept the unionization without a fight.
Guest:
Babatunde Aremu, Union President and Civil Action Attorney, Bronx Defender
Resources
Contact the Bronx Defender Union
Bronx Defenders
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
119: Representing Youths is Just as Important as Representing Adults, and It's Time Public Defense Acted Like it w/Mary Ann Scali and HyeJi Kim
Today, Hunter sat down with Mary Ann Scali (Executive Director, Gault Center) and HyeJi (Senior Youth Defense Counsel, Gault Center), to discuss the legacy of the Supreme Court Case in re Gault and how it impacts youth representation today. Much like the episode with Justine Olderman and Wes Caines on the legacy of Gideon, today’s episode is a reflection on America’s history of neglecting the rights of children, what in re Gault meant for youth access to counsel, and how the court maybe did not go as far as it could have with that case. Most importantly, this episode is meant to serve as a reminder that Public Defense cannot continue to overlook the importance of youth representation. Around the country, youth representation is still viewed as the minor leagues of Public Defense, and it is time for the entire profession to move to practices the understand the importance of having specialized youth defenders who are resourced and staffed to attack a case with the same vigour as their offices dedicate to serious adult felonies.
Guest:
Mary Ann Scali, Executive Director, Gault Center
HyeJi Kim, Senior Youth Defense Counsel, Gault Center
Resources
in re Gault Case
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/387/1/
in re Gault on 5-4 Podcast
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5XZDGyhLn6pZzS8YkC5N7O
Gault Center
https://www.defendyouthrights.org/
Follow Gault Center on Twitter
https://twitter.com/GaultCenter?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Roper v Simmons
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-633.ZS.html
Haley v Ohio
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/332/596
J.D.B v North Carolina
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/564/261/
Access Denied
http://defendyouthrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Access-Denied.pdf
Defend Children
Juvenile Records Bill in Louisiana
https://www.theroot.com/louisiana-house-passes-bill-outing-juvenile-records-in-1850442089
HyeJi in Teen Vouge
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/juvenile-justice-united-states-courts
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
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118: When Student Loan Payments Get Turned Back on, What Will Happen to Public Defense? w/Jane Fox and Kyle Morris
Today, Hunter was joined once again by Jane Fox (Legal Aid Society New York) and Kyle Morris (Nashville Public Defender Office) to discuss all things student debt forgiveness. Last time they were on the show, Jane and Kyle walked Hunter through the complicated landscape of Public Service Loan Forgiveness, President Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan, and several other topics of interest. Since that interview, student debt forgiveness has become a even more pressing issue of conversation as the deadline for student debt payments getting turned back on looms large. Join Hunter, Jane, and Kyle as they breakdown the implications for public defense and other career fields as they grapple with the implications of the future of student debt.
Guest:
Jane Fox, Public Defender and Chapter Chair, Legal Aid Society, New York City
Kyle Morris, Felony Public Defender, Nashville Public Defender
Resources
Student Aid .gov
Student Borrower Protection Center
Cancel My Student Debt. Org
https://www.cancelmystudentdebt.org/
Legal Aid Society
Nashville Defenders
https://publicdefender.nashville.gov/
Contact Kyle
Contact Jane
Follow Jane on Twitter
Follow Kyle on Twitter
https://twitter.com/Kyle_Morris
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
117: How the King County Public Defender Union is Becoming a Player in Washington Politics w/Elbert Aull
Today, Hunter spoke with Elbert Aull, a Public Defender from King County Washington and chairman of the Public Defender Union’s Political Action Committee to discuss the vital role the union played in bringing attention to the horrid conditions of jails in King County. As with many of our unionization episodes, this episode highlights the type of political and media engagement that are not normally available to Public Defenders, whether they be non-unionized or contract. Most importantly, Elbert’s work on the Political Action Committee demonstrates the potential for Public Defenders to become trusted members of the labor force and how they can leverage that trust to shape criminal legal discourse across a politically diverse state like Washington.
Guest:
Elbert Aull, Public Defender, King County, Washington
Resources
PAC comments on the jail crisis
https://www.thestranger.com/news/2022/09/08/78447742/how-can-we-fix-the-king-county-jail-crisis
ACLU Lawsuit that lead to restricting of Public Defense
Email Elbert
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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116: The Promise and Problems of Progressive Prosecution w/Keisha Hudson, Mano Raju and Ricardo Garcia
Across the country, a movement of so called progressive prosecutors has become a focal point of political commentary around the criminal legal system. Today, Hunter spoke with three Chief Public Defenders, Mano Raju, Keisha Hudson, and Ricardo Garcia to discuss their observations and perspectives dealing with these progressive prosecutors. For each of the guests and Hunter, there is a universal agreement that this movement is directionally a massive improvement over old school tough on crime prosecutors, but we also acknowledge there are severe limitations on what they can do. From the recall of Chesa Boudin to the massive pushback against Larry Krasner and George Gascon, the politics of crime make it challenging for this DAs to reach all of their lofty promises.
Guest:
Keisha Hudson, Chief Public Defender, Defenders of Association of Philadelphia
Ricardo Garcia, Chief Public Defender, Los Angeles
Mano Raju, Chief Public Defender, San Francisco
Resources
Defenders Association of Philadelphia
https://phillydefenders.org/home/
Follow Philly Defenders
https://twitter.com/phillydefenders/
Follow Philly Defenders on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/phillydefenders/
LA County Public Defender
Follow LA Public Defender on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/lapubdef/
SF Public Defender
SF Public Defender on Twitter
https://twitter.com/sfdefender
Pamela Price
Larry Krasner
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
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115: Is There a Better Way to Provide Public Defense w/James McDermott and Paul Chambers
Today, Hunter spoke with James McDermott and Paul Chambers, two Public Defenders from the Far West Texas Office, to discuss their vision for a better model for Public Defense Delivery. According to the ABA and basically every Public Defender organization, vertical representation is what all offices should strive for. Under this model, attorneys handle every aspect of the case from first appearance to disposition, but is this really the best model available? In their office, James and Paul have moved towards something they refer to as “ensemble representation”. With more of a flat power dynamic, their model deemphasizes the role of the attorney in an effort to truly put the client at the center of the representation.
Guest:
James McDermott, Chief Public Defender, Far West Texas Public Defense
Paul Chambers, Deputy Chief Public Defender, Far West Texas Public Defense
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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114: How A Coalition of Prosecutors, City Attorneys, and Public Defenders Produces Better Working Conditions w/Alexandra Pray
Today, Hunter sat down with Alexandra Pray, Deputy Public Defender in San Francisco and Board Member of the Public Defender Union, to discuss the unique arrangement the City Attorneys, Prosecutors, and Public Defenders have in SF. When we’ve discussed Public Defense Unions, we ordinarily hear about coalitions of Public Defenders and sometimes all staff members coming together to advocate for better conditions, better workloads, and better pay, but in San Francisco, Public Defenders have a strange ally in the fight for better working conditions. In what may better be described as a collective bargaining agreement, the City Attorneys, Prosecutors, and Public Defenders work together to negotiate better pay and working conditions. How are they able to put aside radical differences in viewpoints around the criminal legal system to find solidarity? Tune in to listen to Alexandra explain how this unique arrangement works.
Guest:
Alexandra Pray, Deputy Public Defender, San Francisco
Resources:
Adachi Project
https://www.adachiproject.com/
SF Standard
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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113: A Broken Legal System, A Lack of Health Care, and How the US Keeps Puerto Rico Under its Thumb w/Diego Alcala
Today, Hunter spoke with Diego Alcala, a criminal defense attorney in Puerto Rico, to better understand the challenges the island faces in the criminal legal system. From years of experience as a criminal defense attorney in Puerto Rico and other parts of the United States, Diego cuts through the complicated legal layers to get at a core issue plaguing Puerto Rico: For more than a century, the island has been subjected to the whims of the United States, and the lack of self-determination, access to health care, and continued imposition of the United States’ will serves as a severe determent to the flourishing of Puerto Ricans.
Guest:
Diego Alcala, Criminal Defense Attorney, Puerto Rico
Resources:
Follow Diego on Twitter
https://twitter.com/DiegoAlcalaPR
Connect with Diego on Linked In
https://pr.linkedin.com/in/diegoalcala
See Diego’s Work on his website
Learn More About Puerto Rico and the Insular Cases
https://www.fivefourpod.com/episodes/united-states-v-vaello-madero/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9wyx_dqzAg
https://shows.acast.com/fivefourpod/episodes/the-insular-cases-teaser
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
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112: How Mitigation Confronts the Biases of Jurors, Judges, Prosecutors, and Public Defenders w/Victoria Rusk
“Well I grew up poor and I didn’t go off committing crimes!” Arguably, this is the most common response those that work in the field of mitigation hear when they are trying to explain what mitigation is. To tackle this question and discuss take another look at the importance of non-capital mitigation, Hunter spoke with Victoria Rusk. She is a mitigation expert, author, and founder of Mitigation University and Heart of Justice, and on today’s episode, Victoria and Hunter take another deep dive at trying to understand the best way to confront the biases that jurors, judges, prosecutors, and yes, public defenders, have during a criminal trial. In confronting these biases, there is hope that a mitigation specialist can connect the various stakeholders in the legal system with the humanity of the defendants in each case.
Guest:
Victoria Rusk, Founder of Mitigation University and Heart of Justice
Resources:
Follow Victoria on Linked In
https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoria-rusk-a4695292?trk=public_post_feed-actor-name
Heart of Justice
https://www.heartofjustice.org/
Mitigation University
https://mitigationuniversity.com/
"The French" Tweet
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
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111: A New Path for Public Safety in San Francisco w/Mano Raju
If you spend anytime watching news in the past 3 years, you have likely heard about San Francisco. Normally, that conversation revolves around the state of public safety in the city, and often, it is presented from the perspective of progressive prosecution. Today, Hunter had on Mano Raju, Chief Public Defender of the San Francisco, to give a different perspective on the path forward for public safety in the city. As an elected official, Mano is uniquely situated to speak with community leaders and organizers to explain why a reversion to the tough on crime era is not best for the public safety of San Francisco.
Guest:
Mano Raju, Chief Public Defender, San Francisco
Resources:
Follow Mano on Twitter
https://twitter.com/ManoRajuPD?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Follow SF Defenders on Twitter
https://twitter.com/sfdefender
SF Defender Website
Follow SF Defenders on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/sfpublicdefender/?hl=en
Adachi Project
https://www.adachiproject.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
110: The Paper Prisons that Keep Millions of Americans From a Second Chance w/Colleen Chien and Alyssa Aguilar
For more than one-third of a Americans, there is a record of their interaction with the criminal legal system. These records and the bureaucracy that controls them help make up a powerful paper prison that stops millions from ever accessing a meaningful second chance. Today, Hunter spoke with Professor Colleen Chien and Alyssa Aguilar about the Paper Prison Initiative to understand the problem. In some cases, people simply do not know how to access their second chance. In others, there are intentionally complicated barriers designed to get as many people as possible not to access their second chance. Whatever the reason may be, Colleen and Alyssa are dedicated to dismantling the impacts of these invisible but powerful Paper Prisons.
Guest:
Colleen Chien, Professor of Law, University of Santa Clara Law School, Founder, Paper Prison Initiative
Alyssa Aguilar, Juris Doctor Candidate 2023, University of Santa Clara Law School
Resources:
Professor Colleen Chien Faculty Page
https://law.scu.edu/faculty/profile/chien-colleen/
Paper Prison Initiative
Follow Paper Prisons Project on Twitter
https://twitter.com/paperprisons?lang=en
Follow Alyssa on Twitter
https://twitter.com/AlyssaLAguilar
Follow Colleen on Twitter
https://twitter.com/colleen_chien
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
109: What are a Lawyer's Ethical Obligations to Society? w/David Siegel
Today, Hunter spoke with David Siegel, Professor of Law and Director of the Center for Law and Social Responsibility at New England Law, to discuss the ethical and social obligations of attorneys. Specifically, Hunter and David unpack the ways in which law schools are failing to educate and equip future lawyers with an understanding of a practical understanding of the law. Law school does a wonderful job of teaching students the theory of the law, but in failing to show the ways the theory falls short of the practice of law, students can graduate without an understanding of the realities in which the legal system abuses poor people and their public defenders. While it is not an easy task, hopefully this conversation will spark a deeper reflection on the many ways in which law school can be overhauled to create more ethical and socially responsible lawyers.
Guest:
David Siegel, Professor of Law and Director of the Center for Law and Social Responsibility at New England Law
Resources:
David Siegel Faculty Page
https://www.nesl.edu/academics-faculty/faculty/profile/siegel-david
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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108: One Investigators Efforts to Revitalize Public Defense in Barron County, Wisconsin w/Felicia Tempel
Today, Hunter spoke with Felicia Tempel, Senior Investigator in the Barron County, Wisconsin Public Defender Office. As with all of the episodes covering a smaller Public Defender Offices, today’s show is all about understanding the challenges that similarly cash and personnel regions of the country face in trying to create vibrant Public Defense Offices. If you will recall my episode on the lawsuit facing the state of Wisconsin, rural Wisconsin is struggling to get enough resources for contract counsel. As such, there are understandable short falls for the institutional Public Defender Offices as the state seeks to deal with one problem at a time. For the people who the office represent though? Waiting for more resources to come in might not be an option.
Guest:
Felicia Tempel, Senior Investigator, Barron County, Wisconsin
Resources:
Barron County Wisconsin PD Office
https://howtojustice.org/resources-services/barron-county-public-defenders-office-wi/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
107: Non-Capital Mitigation and the Quest to Inject Empathy into the Law w/Lindsay Bendell
Today, Hunter sat down with Lindsay Bendell, LCSW Forensic Social Worker & Mitigation Specialist, to discuss the importance of non-capital mitigation. The concept of mitigation is a commonly known part of capital cases. In practice, mitigation are often some of the most important factors in getting someone a sentence of life over death. With that said, mitigation is almost unheard of in non-capital cases. Lindsay is hoping to change that. On today’s episode, Hunter and Lindsay talked about the ins and outs of non-capital mitigation, why it is so essential to injecting empathy into the legal system, and why it isn’t “making excuses” for bad behavior.
Guest:
Lindsay Bendell, LCSW Forensic Social Worker & Mitigation Specialist
Resources:
Follow Lindsay on
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lbendell_lcsw?lang=en
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truecrimesocialworker/
Community Justice Services
https://www.communityjusticeservices.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
106: How Unionization Enables Public Defenders to Get Victories in and Out of Court w/Garret Miller and Brooke Longuevan
Last week, Hunter spoke with LA County Chief Public Defender Ricardo Garcia to discuss the state of Public Defense in LA. Today, Hunter sat down with two Public Defenders, Garret Miller and Brooke Languevan, to get the LA Public Defenders Union perspective on the same question. While the two sides may not always agree on the best way to address the issues plaguing the offices, they both recognize the pressing need for more people, more funding, and a dramatic reimagining of the role Public Defense can and should play in community engagement. After listening to both episodes, what do you think is the best solution to cure the many ills of LA County Public Defense?
Guest:
Garret Miller, Public Defender, Los Angeles County, California
Brooke Longuevan, Public Defender, Los Angeles County, California
Resources:
Follow LA Public Defender Union on Twitter
https://twitter.com/LApubdefunion?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Follow the LA Public Defender Union on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/lapubdefunion/?hl=en
LA Public Defender Union Website
Justice LA
ACLU Socal
L.A. County shifts lawyer program for the poor from Bar Assn. to already busy public defender
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
105: Why it is so Difficult to Get the Innocent out of Prison w/Daniel Medwed
In theory, the criminal legal system is designed to find the truth of a matter. In reality, the legal system has been sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally constructed to be as efficient as possible while maintaining its institutional integrity. From plea deals to Executive Clemency, the legal system is often cruelly efficient at convicting the innocent and keeping the innocent looked in prison for decades. Why is that?
Today, Hunter sat down with Professor of Law, Daniel Medwed, to discuss his book Barred: Why the Innocent Can't Get Out of Prison to answer that question. At every step of the legal system, there are policies, procedures, and legal doctrines that work in concert to keep the innocent locked up as long as possible. Join us for a fascinating and frustrating examination of the legal machine that is so regularly disinterested in finding the truth and freeing the innocent.
Guest:
Daniel Medwed, Professor of Law, Northeastern University School of Law
Resources:
Buy Barred
https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/daniel-s-medwed/barred/9781541675902/
Follow Daniel Medwed on Twitter
https://twitter.com/danielmedwed?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Arizona v Youngblood
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/488/51/
West Virginia Law Review Article on Arizona v Youngblood
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
104: Unlocking the Potential of Public Defense in LA County w/Ricardo Garcia
More than 100 years ago, the first Public Defender Office opened in LA County thanks to the dedication and hard work of Clara Foltz. From that point on, the office grew into the largest office in the country. Today’s guest, Ricardo Garcia, is the current Chief Public Defender of the Office and responsible for figuring out how to unlock the potential of the office. On top of the massive geographic and population challenges of providing Public Defense to LA County, Ricardo must also battle with the well organized and funded police and prosecutorial machine in LA County and California writ large. To fully unlock the potential power of the office, Ricardo hopes empowered supervisors will be able to better engage with the media and local communities. In doing so, Ricardo hopes the community will then apply the pressure necessary to force political change.
Guest:
Ricardo Garcia, Chief Public Defender, Los Angeles County California
Resource
LA County Public Defender
LA County Public Defender Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/lapubdef/
LA County Public Defender Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/LACOUNTYPD/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
103: How Public Defense is Failing in the West w/Emily Hamer
Far too often, the injustices of our legal system go without media attention. This is exceptionally true when it comes to media coverage of the failings of Public Defense. Thankfully, there are a few intrepid investigative reports trying to bring to light the Public Defender Crisis. Today, I spoke with Emily Hamer, Investigative Reporter for Lee Enterprises’ Pubic Service Journalism, to discuss her coverage of the Public Defender crisis in Western States in the seven part series “Broken Defense”. As is so often the case, the severe limitations of Public Defender data collection make it so we only have a partial picture. Thankfully, the picture that Emily was able to paint with the resources available to her shows us enough to definitively state that Public Defense in Western states is failing.
Guest:
Emily Hamer, Investigative Reporter, Lee Enterprises’ Public Service Journalism
Resource
- Part 1: ‘Unconstitutional’ public defense systems upend lives, freedom across West
- Part 2: Montana lawmakers examine public defense, ‘gap between reality and justice’
- Part 3: On the brink of ‘crisis’: Arizona’s public defense system hit hard with staffing shortages
- Part 4: ‘America’s dirty little secret’: Thousands of misdemeanor defendants don’t get attorneys
- Part 5: Staffing shortages, crushing workloads make public defenders’ jobs ‘impossible’
- Part 6: ‘Undue influence’: Public defenders work can be undermined by judges, local officials
- Part 7: Upcoming ‘watershed’ moment in public defense could spark nationwide solutions
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
102: How the Delaware Law Enforcement Bill of Rights Keeps Cop Misconduct Hidden w/Kevin O'Connell, Misty Seemans, and Elliot Margules
When you hear the phrase “Bill of Rights”, you like envision the first 10 amendments of the U.S. Constitution. You may conjure up the many individual liberties that are protected by that bill of rights as a way to limit the power of the government, but in some states, the government has its own bill of rights. Today on the show, Hunter spoke with three Public Defenders from the state of Delaware to discuss their law enforcement bill of rights. Kevin O’Connell, Misty Seemans, and Elliot Margules walk us through the history, implementation, and impacts of this quirky legal process that can make it exceedingly difficult for public defenders and even prosecutors to get their hands on evidence of police misconduct.
Guest:
Kevin O’Connell, Chief Public Defender, Delaware
Misty Seemans, Family Court Supervisor, Delaware
Elliot Margules, Special Litigation Attorney
Resources:
Delaware Public Defender
Sixth Amendment Center Report on Delaware
https://sixthamendment.org/6ac/6AC_delawarereport.pdf
https://delawarecall.com/2023/01/11/why-we-need-access-to-police-misconduct-records-in-delaware/
https://delawarecall.com/2023/01/30/why-we-need-access-to-police-misconduct-records-in-delaware-2/
Delaware Code: Delaware’s LEOBOR
https://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c092/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
101: Reflecting on Gideon v Wainwright, the Past, Present and Future of Public Defense w/Justine Olderman and Wes Caines
60 years ago, Clarence Gideon changed the legal landscape of America forever. Thanks to his self-written petition to the Supreme Court, it was finally recognized at the federal level that any person charged with a felony who cannot afford to hire was entitled to one under the 6th Amendment. Soon, that right would be extended to a person facing any possibility of confinement, and thus, our modern understanding of Public Defense was born.
On today’s episode, Hunter spoke with to members of the Bronx defenders to reflect on the legacy of Gideon. Justine Olderman, Executive Director, and Wesley Caines, Chief of Staff, are part of the team at the Bronx Defenders trying to take the lessons from the past to drive new innovations in Public Defense. From the perspective of the attorneys and the formerly incarcerated, today’s episode attempts to look at the strategic end state Public Defense hopes to achieve and the what it will take to achieve it.
Guest:
Justine Olderman, Executive Director, Bronx Defenders
Wesley Caines, Chief of Staff, Bronx Defenders
Resource
Bronx Defenders
https://www.bronxdefenders.org/staff/justine-olderman/
Follow Wesley on Twitter
https://twitter.com/bm_mansamusa
Follow Justine on Twitter
Inquest Series on Public Defense
https://inquest.org/tag/public-defenders/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
100: Do Sex Offender Registries Make Us Safer? w/David Garlock
Today, Hunter spoke with David Garlock, a formerly incarcerated and current criminal justice reformer, to discuss how David’s journey from victim, to prison, to life after prison has landed him advocating to end sex offender registries. As a child, David endured nearly a decade of child sexual abuse. Eventually, he and his brother sought revenge against the man who committed the acts, and they made the decision to murder that man. David and his brother would go on to be convicted of murder and spend a decade locked away in an Alabama prison. Following his prison time, David began working with those who committed sex crimes in an attempt to rehabilitate them. Given his experience, there are few people who can speak with such moral authority on the issue of the sex offender registry and in the efforts to move our system away from one with a bedrock of vengeance.
Guest:
David Garlock, Formerly Incarcerated and Criminal Justice Reformer
Resources:
David Garlock Website
https://www.davidlgarlock.com/
David Garlock on Twitter
https://twitter.com/davidleegarlock
National Association for Rational Sex Offender Laws
NAPD 2023 National Conference Sign Up
https://nationalpublicdefensevirtua2021.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
99: There is no Public Defense Without Investigators w/Jon Lyon
On today’s episode, Hunter spoke with Jon Lyon, the Investigator Resource Coordinator for the National Association for Public Defense, to talk all things investigator related. As Public Defense is focused on the practice of law, it makes sense that most of our conversations are lawyer centric, but part of the role of this show and of the NAPD is to remind everyone involved in Public Defense that it takes an entire team of people to represent someone. You may be the best lawyer on Earth, but if there is no one to assist you in collecting evidence, interviewing witnesses, or chasing down leads, there are limits to what you can accomplish in the court room. For this reason, it is essential that we understand that without investigators, there is no Public Defense.
Guest:
Jon Lyon, Investigator Resource Coordinator, National Association for Public Defense
Resources:
NAPD Website
https://www.publicdefenders.us/
Lyon Legal Logistics
https://lyonlegallogistics.com/
Internet Sleuths
https://www.internetsleuth.net/
NAPD 2023 National Conference Sign Up
https://nationalpublicdefensevirtua2021.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
98: Making the Case for the Abolition of Court Fees w/Priya Sarathy Jones
Previously on the show, Hunter spoke with Marea Beeman about the dangerous fines and fees that make “free” attorneys decidedly not “free”. Today, Hunter sat down with Priya Sarathy Jones, Deputy Executive Director of the Fines and Fees Justice Center, to do an even deeper dive on the hidden costs that come with any interaction with the legal system. Since the Reagan administration, local communities, starved of federal support, began using the legal system to generate revenue. From that point on, more and more fees that have nothing to do with restitution to victims of crimes have been added to our legal system. As a result, a simple interaction with the legal system now carries a high risk of getting trapped in a cycle of poverty and debt.
Guest:
Priya Sarathy Jones, Deputy Executive Director, Fines and Fees Justice Center
Resources:
Fines and Fees Justice Center Website
https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/
NAPD 2023 National Conference Sign Up
https://nationalpublicdefensevirtua2021.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
97: A Reason to Hope for Connecticut Public Defense w/TaShun Bowden-Lewis
Taking over a Public Defender System requires one to understand the greatest weaknesses of the system. For TaShun Bowden-Lewis, one of those is a sever lack of outreach from the Connecticut Office of the Public Defender Office. While it will not happen overnight, TaShun hopes that by achieving her three main goals she will be able to transform the state wide system into one that is at the forefront of reshaping public safety policy. From innovative ideas for external affairs to caring for the wellbeing of every Public Defender under her leadership, TaShun offers the state hope for a better model of Public Defense.
Guest:
TaShun Bowden Lewis, Chief Public Defender, Connecticut Office of the Public Defender
Resources:
Connecticut Office of the Public Defender
CT Public Defender on Twitter
https://twitter.com/ctpublicdfndrs
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
96: How to Include the Formerly Incarcerated in Public Defense w/Anthony Graves
After spending 18 years behind bars for a crime he did not commit, Anthony Graves hopes he can start a movement of getting more people with experience with the legal system involved in Public Defense. As the Director of Community Outreach for the Harris County Public Defender Office, Anthony is helping to bridge the gap between Public Defenders and the clients they represent. With crushing caseloads and minimal resources, Public Defenders cannot always provide the type of care that each of their clients need. While we may understand that this is more a product of a failing public defender system than the indifference of the attorney, the client only sees that their needs are not being met. From there, trust, with the client and the community, can easily erode. This is where Anthony steps in.
Few people know the needs of those currently accused of a crime quite like those who have spent time trapped in the legal system. Yet, many who serve as Public Defenders are unable to fully relate to the plight of their clients. With the help of Anthony and his Peer Navigators, Public Defenders can fill this critical knowledge gap and move one step closer to true holistic representation.
Guest:
Anthony Graves, Director of Community Outreach, Harris County Public Defender Office
Resources:
Harris County Public Defender Office
http://harriscountypublicdefender.org/
Anthony’s Website
https://www.anthonygraves.org/
Follow Anthony on Twitter
https://twitter.com/anthonycgraves?lang=en
Email Anthony
In Memorium of Jeff Blackburn
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
95: Why it's Time to Abolish Felony Murder Laws w/Nazgol Ghandnoosh
Normally in criminal law, intent matters. The intent of a person is one of the most critical features in determining how we will punish someone for a crime they committed. Then came the felony murder law. As a result of this law, people committing a felony that resulted in the death of another, no matter how remote that death may have been, were treated the same as someone who acted with the intent to kill someone. How this happened, the impacts of this harsh law, and what we can do about it are all topics in today’s episode with Nazgol Ghandnoosh, Co-Director of Research at the Sentencing Project.
Guest:
Nazgol Ghandnoosh, Co-Director of Research, The Sentencing Project
Resources:
Nazgol’s Publications
http://www.nazgolghandnoosh.com/research.html
Sentencing Project Report on Felony Murder
https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/felony-murder-an-on-ramp-for-extreme-sentencing/
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
94: Where Will Maryland Public Defense Go With A New Chief Public Defender w/Natasha Dartigue
Today, Hunter spoke with the newest Chief Public Defender for the State of Maryland, Natasha Dartigue. Throughout her career, Natasha worked in every imaginable part of the Maryland Public Defender system. As such, she is acutely aware of the strength, weaknesses, and challenges she will face as she leads the office into the next decade. As with all of the conversations we have with leaders of a state wide Public Defense system, Natasha brings with her a vision for a safer, more vibrant community through the revitalization of public defense in the state of Maryland.
Guest:
Natasha Dartigue, Chief Public Defender, Maryland Office of the Public Defender
Resources:
Maryland Office of the Public Defender
Maryland Public Defender Caseload Standards
https://silo.tips/download/maryland-attorney-and-staff-workload-assessment-2005
Geoff Burkhart “How to Leverage Public Defender Workload Studies””
https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/1811/80800/OSJCL_V14N2_403.pdf?sequence=1
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
93: Why it is Time to Move Away from Assigned and Contract Public Defense Models w/Eve Primus
For somewhere between a third and a half of indigent people accused of a crime, they will be given either an assigned or contract Public Defender. Today’s guest, Professor Eve Primus, argues that we must move away from that contract model of Public Defense. After years of research and writing, Eve is positive of one thing: to ensure everyone accused of a crime who cannot afford an attorney is provided competent representation, we must make full time Public Defense Offices the standard delivery method for public defense.
From the lack of available resources to the lack of political voice, Eve posits that assigned counsel systems are no longer a viable option for the indigent clients they represent. To hear how she arrived at this point, why she is hopeful change can manifest, and the role she feels law schools must play in making our legal system better, tune in to this awesome conversation!
Guest:
Eve Primus, Professor of Law, University of Michigan
Resources:
The Problematic Structure of Indigent Defense Delivery
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4232443
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
92: The Important Role Public Defense Played in New Jersey Bail Reform w/Joseph Krakora
For some reason, people forget that long before New York or Illinois ended cash bail, New Jersey successfully eliminated cash bail. As Joseph Krakora shares on today’s episode, that initiative came, in part, because Public Defense was valued enough by local politicians to be a major voice in shaping criminal justice reform. With more than a decade as the head of the New Jersey Public Defender System, few are better situated to share the story of bail reform and Public Defense in the state of New Jersey. Most importantly though, this story highlights why it is so important for Public Defenders to make themselves heard when policy is being crafted.
Guest:
Joseph Krakora, Public Defender of the State of New Jersey
Resources:
Office of the New Jersey Public Defender
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
91: If Iowa Public Defense is About to Collapse, What is Happening in Juvenile and Immigration Defense w/Rachel Antonuccio and Julia Zalenski
While the main focus of the podcast is the representation that adults receive in felony and misdemeanor cases, there are countless other areas of law where indigent people need the help of attorneys. There are few states capable of providing the resources and care necessary to create a functioning public defense system for adult representation, so we shouldn’t be surprised when things like Juvenile and Immigration representation fall to the wayside. Iowa is no exception. Recently, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court stated Public Defense in Iowa was on the verge of collapse. If that’s the case, what’s happening to juvenile and immigration representation?
To help answer these questions, Hunter spoke with Julia Zalenski, a Public Defender in the Iowa City Public Defender Office, and Rachel Antonuccio, the supervisor at the Waterloo Juvenile Public Defender Office. Through their tireless work and speaking on the show, they hope to draw attention to the needs of the countless clients who are easily ignored by the state.
Guest: Rachel Antonuccio, Supervisor, Waterloo Juvenile Public Defender Office
Julia Zalenski, Public Defender, Iowa City Public Defender Office
Resources:
Iowa Public Defender Office
Iowa Public Defense Crisis
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
90: In Order to Review Hours of Video Evidence, Public Defenders Need New Tech w/Devshi Mehrotra
In a good faith effort to hold police accountable, states and counties around the country started mandating that police wear body cameras at all times. When they or on or working, they offer a powerful source of evidence at the misconduct of officers. There is just one problem: With Public Defender Offices in crisis around the country, do they actually have the time to review hundreds of hours of video evidence in every case? That answer, for a long time, was no. That’s where Justice Text, and our guest today come in.
As student at the University of Chicago, Devshi Mehrotra realized the inequities in our legal system following the murder of Laquan McDonald. As the Chicago community rallied for change, she wanted to help. Out of this desire the idea for Justice Text was born. On today’s show, you will hear more about the creation of Justice Text, how it helps Public Defenders, and the role tech needs to take in helping balancing the scales between resources available to police, prosecutors, and Public Defenders.
Guest:
Resources:
Justice Text
Justice Text on Twitter
https://twitter.com/JusticeText
NY Times article on the disparity in access to tech across the legal system
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/business/law-enforcement-public-defender-technology-gap.html
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
89: How to Pass on the Lessons from a 20+ Year Public Defender Career w/Andre Vitale
With the grueling nature of Public Defense work, it takes a special combination of internal and external motivations to navigate a 20+ year career in the field. Today on the show our guest, Andre Vitale, shares with us how he managed the highs and lows of working in Public Defense in three separate states.
When his career started, Andre served as a line defender in the Monroe, County Public Defender Office in Rochester New York. After more than a decade there, Andre spent a year in King County Washington, to help refine his skills as a Public Defense Trainer. After finally landing in the Hudson Trial region in New Jersey, Andre has helped to cultivate inciteful and productive training programs for Public Defense around the country. As he sees it in order to get Public Defense where it needs to go, a robust training program is a must, and it is part of what kept him going through all of these years!
Guest:
Andre Vitale, Acting First Assistant Deputy Public Defender, Trial Chief, Hudson Trial Region at New Jersey Office of the Public Defender
Resources:
NJ Office of the Public Defender
NAPD Conference Sign Up
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
88: The Most Important Public Defense Victories Don't Happen in the Court Room w/Sam Allison Natale
When we think of zealous Public Defense, we often think of triumphant victories in the court room, but today’s guest wants Public Defenders to realize their greatest victories must come outside of the court room. Joining Hunter today once again is Sam Allison-Natale. He is the Executive Director of the Kansas Holistic Defenders, the only holistic public defender office in the state of Kansas dedicated to representing only misdemeanor clients.
Unlike most states, the Kansas Public Defender system provides representation only to those accused of felony crimes. So, when Sam moved with his family from New York to Lawrence Kansas, there was a limited opportunity to continue serving his community as a Public Defender. Undeterred, Sam seized on the already existing local groundswell of people calling for drastic changes to the local criminal legal system. In understanding the power of organizing and collective action, Sam assisted in getting the office up and running. On today’s episode, you’ll find out how the team at Kansas Holistic Defenders accomplished this and continue to work with the community to challenge the carceral system!
Guest:
Sam Allison-Natale, Executive Director, Kansas Holistic Defenders
Resources:
Kansas Holistic Defenders
https://www.kansasholisticdefenders.org/
ICE Detention Story
Sanctuary City News
https://metrovoicenews.com/lawrence-moves-forward-with-sanctuary-city-plans/
Sanctuary Alliance Lawerence Kansas
https://www.facebook.com/SanctuaryAllianceLawrenceKS/
NAPD Conference Registration
https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/tickets
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
87: How to Make the Case for Public Defense in a Conservative State w/Diane Lozano
Today, Hunter spoke with Diane Lozano, the Wyoming State Public Defender, to discuss how she’s been able to secure support for Public Defense in the challenge political landscape of Wyoming. With more than a decade at the helm of the state’s public defender system, Diane’s use of data and public advocacy has allowed her to maintain support through multiple state Congresses and Gubernatorial administrations. Despite the turmoil that comes with changing faces of a constantly rotating political body, Diane found a way to build the necessary relationships and compile the necessary data to make convincingly and consistently make the case for people to care about public defense. This task is even more impressive when one considers that her position is a direct Gubernatorial appointee!
Yet her victories are always in a precarious state. As with all states, funding for public defense is always at the whim of an ever-changing political body, but in Wyoming, it’s also tied to the success of the fossil fuel industry. Despite victories both in and out of the court room, the boom bust cycle of the fossil fuel industry often leaves her offices and the support services their clients need, in a precarious position. What can be done to shore up a more consistent funding stream? What can we learn from the story of Public Defense in Wyoming? All that and more will be answered by the end of this excellent conversation!
Guest:
Diane Lozano, State Public Defender, Wyoming
Resources:
Lozano v Circuit Court
https://casetext.com/case/lozano-v-circuit-court-of-sixth-judicial-dist
Wyoming Public Defender
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
86: The Resurrection of New York Public Defense w/Patricia Warth
For decades, activists, scholars, and attorneys decried the state of public defense in New York. Report after report uncovered a broken system that underpaid public defenders and contact attorneys alike as the state shirked its responsibility to adequately support the counties in their effort to provide counsel to the poor. Even after a landmark study, mandated by the state’s chief justice, it would take another decade and a lawsuit from the NYCLU, to finally start the process toward reform.
For much of her career, today’s guest zealously advocated for poor clients facing the death penalty. As such, Patricia Warth was able to see first-hand the incredibly positive impacts that a well-funded, well-staffed public defender office could have on the lives of the accused and the community writ large. Today, her experience as a death penalty lawyer informs her work as the Director of the New York Office of Indigent Legal Services. While not fighting battles in the courtroom, Patricia is still caught in a daily struggle to help legislators from around the country understand the necessity for the state to continue to expand its support for public defense. With her incredible experience at nearly every level of public defense in New York, Patricia is the perfect guest to help us understand what we can learn from the rehabilitation of New York’s Public Defense System.
Guest:
Patricia Warth, Director, New York Office of Indigent Legal Services
Resources:
2006 Reports on New York Indigent Defense
https://www.nycourts.gov/ip/indigentdefense-commission/IndigentDefenseCommission_report06.pdf
https://www.nycourts.gov/ip/indigentdefense-commission/SpangenbergGroupReport.pdf
Hurell-Harring Settlement Implementation
https://www.ils.ny.gov/node/56/hurrell-harring-settlement-implementation
https://www.ils.ny.gov/files/Statewide%20Counsel%20at%20Arraignment%20Report%20Year%202%202020.pdf
State of Injustice: How New York State Turns its Back on the Right to Counsel for the Poor”
https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/publications/nyclu_hh_report_FINAL.pdf
NY ILS website
Contact Hunter Parnell:
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
85: The Challenges Public Defense Faces in Rural Georgia w/Michael Smith
Today on the show, Hunter spoke with Michael Smith, an Assistant Public Defender in Chattooga County, Georgia, to talk about the unique challenges he faces as a rural public defender. After college and law school took him away from his home in Chattooga, County, Michael Smith returned home with a new found understanding of the inequities his community faced.
As the only public defender in the county, Michael is responsible for ensuring the rights of every person in the county are protected. As if that burden was not enough, the county, like so many rural areas of the country, suffers from a severe drought of mental health and transportation services that are essential to assisting people escape the cycle of legal system interactions. If we are to solve the nation’s Public Defense crisis, we will need to come up with solutions to get desperately needed resources and services to rural and urban public defenders alike.
Guest:
Michael Smith, Assistant Public Defender, Chattooga County Georgia
Resources:
Contact for Michael
https://www.lmjc.net/?page_id=530
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
84: How Anne Arundel County, MD Prosecutors Over Incarcerate the Community w/Felipe Gonzalez
Over the last year of Public Defenseless, Hunter spent a lot of time speaking with Chief Public Defenders from commissions and state-wide offices around the country. This top down view of Public Defense is extremely valuable and will be something that you hear more of on the show, but Hunter also realized he neglected to get the voices of line public defenders on the show. Over the course of the year, more episodes with line public defenders, like the one today, will be coming your way!
Today, Hunter spoke with Felipe Gonzalez, a felony public defender in Anne Arundel County, Maryland. His story, like many line defenders around the country is impossible to tell without discussing crippling caseloads, staffing shortages, and prosecutors who religiously advocate for no bail for most accused of a crime. Yet despite this, Felipe is able to rely on the tight knit office community to weather the storms inherent in the work. We hope you enjoy the first of many conversations with the line defenders who serve as the back bone of public defense around the country!
Guest:
Felipe Gonzalez, Felony Public Defender, Anne Arundel County Maryland
Resources:
Anne Arundel County PD Office
https://www.opd.state.md.us/anne-arundel
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
83: The Everyday Citizens Uncovering Oklahoma Police and Prosecutor Misconduct
A major theme of this show is empower regular people with the knowledge necessary to push back against the overreach of the state via police and prosecutors. That's why Hunter was so excited to bring you today's episode with a representative from the organization called Citizens Overseeing Police Oklahoma. The guest today is your everyday Oklahoman who is tired of the rampant corruption and abuse that police and prosecutors of the state get away with on a daily basis. While we could only scratch the surface of the issues facing the state, even the limited dialog should be eye opening for anyone interested in creating a fairer and safer Oklahoma.
****A NOTE ABOUT TODAY'S SHOW**** Our guest today is remaining anonymous due to legitimate concerns to their safety. Already, law enforcement has engaged in activity that is nothing short of reprisal and harassment for the guest's continued efforts to push back against their abuse of power. As such, the voice you will hear on today's show is AI generated to protect the identity of the guest.
Guest:
Representative of the Citizens Overseeing Police Oklahoma
Resources:
Citizens Overseeing Police Oklahoma
https://www.citizensoverseeing.com/oklahoma/police
The Brady List
*These are all single sources for the names and alleged activity in the episode. If more sourcing is requested, please contact Hunter or Citizens Overseeing Police OK*
- Matt Ballard https://www.citizensoverseeing.com/projects/brady-disclosure/district-attorneys/district-12
- Isaac Shields & George Gibbs https://www.citizensoverseeing.com/projects/brady-disclosure/district-attorneys/district-12/d12-shields-gibbs
- Brian Hermanson https://www.citizensoverseeing.com/projects/brady-disclosure/district-attorneys/district-8
- David Prater https://www.citizensoverseeing.com/projects/brady-disclosure/district-attorneys/district-7/district-7-2022
- Rebecca Boyer https://www.citizensoverseeing.com/projects/brady-disclosure/district-attorneys/district-4
- Gayland Geiger https://giglio-bradylist.com/individual/gayland-%20gieger
- Prater witness intimidation https://web.archive.org/web/20220428145903/https://okjusticereform.org/2021/05/trichell-jones-when-survivors-are-criminalized/
- Bob Macy https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/history-of-misconduct-chronicled-in-oklahoma-county-with-41-executions
- Richard Glossip - Save Richard Glossip.com
- Richard Glossip Appeals; Fern Smith; AG John O’Connor, No. PCD-2022-589 (Post Conviction-Death) and No. PCD-2022-819 (Post Conviction-Death)
- Fern Smith - (destruction of evidence) Glossip Independent investigation
- Molly Miller & Colt Haynes - Love County Partners in True Crime
- Abc 19 in Phoenix ,Dave Biscobing @DaveBiscobing15 Full disclosure: Investigating Arizona’s broken "Brady list" system (part 1); Full disclosure: Investigating Arizona’s broken "Brady list" system (part 2)
- Mark Lamb https://revealnews.org/article/big-lie-sheriffs-target-us-elections/
- Angela Marsee https://www.citizensoverseeing.com/projects/brady-disclosure/district-attorneys/district-2
- The president of our sheriff’s association - Chris West - https://giglio-bradylist.com/individual/chris-%20west
- Canadian County Sheriff Major Adam Flowers https://giglio-bradylist.com/citizen-report-no-1665354581-1109384232
- Fern Smith - Now ADA in Johnston County - Johnston County Sheriff Office
- “In 2021, Johnston County saw a total of 15 pursuits. From January this year to now they’ve already had 11.” Johnston County Sheriff Dodd on April 4, 2022
- Love County Sheriff Joe Russell Witnesses in Love County Sheriff Joe Russell Removal
- Gabriel Alexander Johnston County uses of force
- Johnston County Sheriff - Gary Dodd
- Fern Smith, has made it Very clear in Court documents That the state of Oklahoma has zero jurisdiction over their own Sheriff Because he is a tribal member.
- Craig Ladd - District 20 District Attorney
- 18-9526 McGirt v. Oklahoma (07/09/2020) - Supreme Court
- CLEET Preston Draper, the General counsel,
- Level playing Field Solutions
- File a brady list complaint
- Sanctuary county Map
- A.D.A Melissa Henke Hidden Camera in attorney/client room of Carter County Jail.
- State Rep Justin Humphrey - Richard Glossip Press Conference September 2022
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
82: The Tech NonProfit Accelerating People Out of the U.S. Justice System w/Serena Chang
Across the country, outdated and disconnected data systems keep thousands of people stuck in prison or on community supervision long after they should technically be free. Today, Hunter spoke with Serena Chang, a product manager at Recidiviz, a tech nonprofit working to solve this problem and make the criminal justice system fairer, smaller, and more effective.
As discussed in the episode with Jason Tashea, the legal system is slow to incorporate new technology. Yet for States and organizations around the country, it’s becoming obvious they can no longer operate a legal system based on individuals enter data by hand or relying on the memory of a few overworked officials. This is where Recidiviz enters the conversation. Tune in to hear how Serena and Recidiviz craft individualized, yet scalable solutions that aim at reducing the power and reach of the American prison industrial complex!
Guest:
Serena Chang, Product Manager, Recidiviz
Key Topics:
Serena’s journey to Recidiviz [5:00]
The Problems facing the legal system [6:35]
How to craft solutions and how they worked in Idaho [14:25]
How states get introduced into Recidiviz’ work [23:04]
How Recidiviz works on policy [25:10]
Ensuring increasing efficiency does not simply increase the efficiency of incarceration [28:37]
Preventing the states from using data collected to implement more pro carceral policy [31:27]
Ensuring equal access to tools [34:05]
Plans for expansion [36:10]
How to access Recidiviz’ pre-existing tools [38:35]
Data Protection [40:35]
What would happen if bad/illegal behavior by the state came to light [42:30]
Trends Recidiviz noticed in their data collection [44:25]
Goals for organization [46:58]
How to start partnership [49:15]
Offering solutions that do not increase the size and power of the Department of Corrections [51:40]
Working with a PD Office [54:20]
How to learn more and identify problems [56:22]
Resources:
Recidiviz
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
81: How to Craft Ethical Tech Solutions to the Many Issues with the Legal System w/Jason Tashea
On this episode, Hunter spoke with Jason Tashea to discuss the exciting intersection of tech and the legal system. As the Director and Co-Founder of the Georgetown Judicial Innovation Fellowship, Jason is constantly thinking about ways to ethically integrate technology into the legal world. As an institution predicated on tradition, precedent, and intentionally inefficient legal protections, the legal profession has been incredibly slow to adopt the forward thinking, efficiency mindset so prevalent in the tech world.
It is the juxtaposition of the two that sits at the center of today’s conversation. How do we ensure that the efficiency goals of tech don’t trample the rights of others? How do we make sure that the vitally necessary data collection practices are implemented safely without privacy violation? All these questions and more are explored in this episode!
Guest:
Jason Tashea, Director and Co-Founder of the Georgetown Judicial Innovation Fellowship
Key Topics:
How Jason’s Career got him here [5:40]
Where does the use of tech currently stand in the legal profession [7:50]
Access to Justice Gap [9:28]
Understanding the difficulties of a public-private partnership [13:41]
Lessons from other countries [16:22]
Data Privacy Concerns [19:56]
What policies need to be implemented to ensure equal access to new tech [23:50]
Balancing tech’s desire for efficiency with the law’s inefficient legal protections [27:05]
More ethical issues with law and tech [34:50]
Faith in reforms [38:13]
Limiting power of centralization of data [40:40]
The Fellowship [45:10]
Pushing for an Open Source Environment [52:00]
Getting into the Fellowship [53:00]
What Public Defenders can do to get more tech solutions [56:00]
Resources:
Links for Judicial Innovation Fellowship
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/tech-institute/programs/judicial-innovation/
https://twitter.com/JIFGeorgetown
https://www.linkedin.com/company/judicial-innovation-fellowship/
Justice as a Platform
https://law.mit.edu/pub/justiceasaplatform/draft?access=wd47u265
A Human Rights Approach to Justice Technology Procurement
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4246039
How the US can Compete with China on digital justice technology
Talk Justice Podcast
https://legaltalknetwork.com/podcasts/talk-justice/
Code for America
Legal Hackers
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
80: Staff Assaults, A Decade in Solitary, and the Many Horrors of Massachusetts' Prisons w/Elizabeth Matos
From the denial of basic healthcare needs to decades in solitary confinement, prisoners stuck in the Massachusetts prison system face near daily deprivation of basic human and Constitutional rights. Today, Hunter spoke with Elizabeth Matos to understand how her organization, Prisoners' Legal Services of Massachusetts, challenges this system of relentless brutality.
Guest:
Elizabeth Matos, Executive Director, Prisoners' Legal Services of Massachusetts
Key Topics:
How Lizz’s family history got her into this line of work [6:55]
The problems in Massachusetts’ Prisons [10:09]
Are there other organizations working to solve this problem? [14:17]
What do communities miss out on when they don’t have a PLSMA type org [17:12]
The lack of healthcare in Massachusetts’ Prisons [19:35]
Specific challenges females face in regard to lack of healthcare [22:41]
How the legislature is responding to this issue [29:30]
Staff Assaults in Massachusetts’ Prisons [33:56]
Solutions for the Staff Assault problem [41:27]
Other issues with confinement in Massachusetts’ Prisons [47:50]
Issues with Solitary Confinement [56:00]
Race and Equity Initiatives [1:02:00]
The year ahead for PLSMA [1:06:00]
Ensuring the voices of the incarcerated are heard when crafting solutions [1:11:00]
Resources:
Email Lizz
PLSMA
Walpole Prison Riot
https://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/us-prisoners-take-control-walpole-prison-1973
Annie Dookhan
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
79: What Could Yolo County Public Defenders Do if They Weren't Funded $16 Million Less than the Prosecutors? w/Tracie Olson
While not a small county, Yolo County California does not have the size or resources to match the major metropolitan areas of San Francisco, Oakland, L.A., or Sacramento. Yet somehow, Tracie Olson, Chief Public Defender Yolo County, and her team at the Yolo County Public Defender Office are able to maintain a strong holistic public defense practice.
Despite a $16 million dollar budget shortfall compared to the prosecutors, Tracie has been able to establish her office as a pillar in the community. If the county and the state of California were to finally fund the office at even 85% of what the prosecutor’s office received, the health and safety of Yolo County could reach heights no one thought possible!
Guest:
Tracie Olson, Chief Public Defender, Yolo County Public Defender Office
Key Topics:
How Tracie got started in Indigent Defense [8:30]
Demographics and layout of Yolo County California [13:25]
Where the Yolo County Public Defender Office sits California’s Public Defense System [15:30]
Funding disparity between California Prosecutors and Public Defenders, and what Tracie can do despite the disparity [17:43]
Community Response to the disparity in Prosecutor and Public Defense Funding [21:20]
The impacts of the “tough on crime” media narratives over the past few years on Yolo County [27:50]
Trying to address the housing issue in Yolo County [37:30]
What can’t the Yolo County PD office do because of the funding shortage and how is the community hurt as a result [41:25]
Making Public Defense more than a “check box” system [48:20]
Yolo County PD community outreach programs [54:45]
What does California need to do to support public defense? [1:05:45]
Resources:
Yolo County Public Defender Office
https://www.yolocounty.org/government/general-government-departments/law-justice/public-defender
Yolo County Public Defender Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/YoloPublicDefense/?modal=admin_todo_tour
Yolo County Public Defender Twitter
https://twitter.com/yolopubdefense
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
78: What's Plaguing Public Defense in Oakland County Michigan and New Hampshire? w/David Carroll
Why are some state’s public defense systems so strong while others are so weak?
This week, Hunter speaks for a second time with David Carroll, the Executive Director of the Sixth Amendment Center. David highlights a handful of reports that his organization conducted in an attempt to improve the public defense systems of many different states.
First, David talks about Oakland Michigan, a now strong system because of the Sixth Amendment Center’s findings. Then, he’ll go into a weaker system—New Hampshire. Taking you through the ins and outs of this complicated government, you’ll learn exactly why change in this state has been so difficult.
Hunter and David end the episode by delving into the Illinois and Lake County, California reports and how the Sixth Amendment has improved the systems in these locations as well.
This episode highlights the fact that systems can still be bad even with well-intentioned individuals at the helm. However, David will instill you with true hope that positive change is on the horizon.
Key Topics/Takeaways:
- Qualifications and independence for attorneys in Oakland. [15:53]
- Attorney compensation in Oakland. [21:45]
- Recommendations and results in Oakland. [33:20]
- The structure of indigent defense in New Hampshire. [41:33]
- Attorney compensation in New Hampshire. [54:04]
- Non-lawyer prosecuters. [59:19]
- The nonprofit state public defender and conflict system. [1:07:20]
- Caseloads in New Hampshire. [1:10:17]
- Recommendations for New Hampshire. [1:17:23]
- The Illinois report. [1:24:28]
- The Lake County, California report. [1:32:21]
- A 2022 public defense wrap up + David’s hope for the future. [1:38:47]
Guest:
David Caroll, Executive Director, Sixth Amendment Center
Resources:
Sixth Amendment Center Reports
Memorable Quotes:
“Systems in America, whether that be indigent defense or otherwise, do not need to have a bad person running them for them to fail. In fact, it can be even more difficult for well-intentioned people to correct a system that they are responsible for because it is so much harder for them to see past their own good intentions.” (2:40, Hunter)
“People don't even see it anymore. It's ethical blindness right in front of them. And so it takes a group like ours to come in and hold a mirror up and say, no, look at what's actually playing out in all these things.” (24:43, David)
“Now that we've solved the compensation issue, once those plans get implemented and in place, once caseloads can be enforced, I think Michigan's well on the way to being one of the better systems in the country.” (39:28, David)
“I think a lot of people that want criminal justice reform think that criminal justice systems were rationally constructed. Like someone sat down and said, this is the best way to do it for us. And it's absolutely not the case. It's just piecemeal.” (1:08:22, David)
“I am hopeful. I am the eternal optimist. You can't be doing this work for over 25 years and not be hopeful.” (1:39:10, David)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
77: The Fallout of the Dobbs Decision on Louisiana Reproductive Healthcare w/Gwyneth O'Neill, Ellie Schilling and Michelle Erenberg
Since its inception, Supreme Court decisions play a terrifying role in controlling the lives of Americans. Few decisions in living memory now play a greater role than the overturning of Roe v Wade.
To understand the impacts of Dobbs v Jackson, Hunter is joined by three guests from the state of Louisiana. Gwyneth O’Neill is an associate at the law firm Schonekas, Evans, McGoey and McEachin. Ellie Schilling is a partner at the same law firm and serves on the board of the non-profit LIFT Louisiana that Michelle Erenberg is the co-Executive Director.
For decades, anti-abortion activists fought tooth and nail to see Roe v Wade overturned, but now that it is, those same activists are demonstrating a fundamental disregard for the impacts of their actions. With healthcare in a precarious situation around the country, the short sightedness of the activists in paraded throughout the episode.
By going through the history of abortion denying access in the state and the many contradictions in the current laws, Hunter hopes to equip every listener, attorney or not, with the tools needed to push back against those seeking to turn Reproductive Healthcare back to 1865.
Guest:
Gwyneth O’Neill, Associate, Schonekas, Evans, McGoey and McEachin
Ellie Schilling, Partner, Schonekas, Evans, McGoey and McEachin, Board Member Lift Louisiana.
Michelle Erenberg, Co-Executive Director, Lift Louisiana
Key Topics:
How everyone got involved in Reproductive Justice [6:04]
S.B8 Texas [20:20]
Evolution of Anti-Abortion Laws [26:00]
The impacts of changing the definition of when life starts [33:00]
The difficulty of anticipating what comes next with all of the contradictions in the law [49:30]
How does the Legislature respond to the hypocrisy [51:00]
Chilling effects on Drs and other unintended consequences [55:30]
Crisis of Healthcare [1:03:00]
How Lift LA tries to appeal to voters [1:14:00]
The severe lack of expertise from policy makers ;1:17:00]
Criminal Defense Preparing for these cases [1:24:00]
Reporting Standards for Doctors [1:36:00]
Connecting communities with the resources needed to fight back [1:42:00]
What else can the defense bar do to prepare [1:47:00]
Resources:
Lift Louisiana
Follow Lift Louisiana on Twitter
@liftlouisiana
Here's a link to the Abortion Defenders sign up form bit.ly/AbortionDefendersLA
Schonekas, Evans, McGoey and McEachin
ACLU
https://www.aclu.org/other/links-other-reproductive-freedom-sites
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
76: Trying to Keep Public Defense in North Dakota from Collapsing w/Travis Finck
Right now, a three-attorney public defender office in North Dakota has zero attorneys on staff. And with public defender turnover rates on the rise, the state makes it difficult to provide legal representation for all.
In this episode, Hunter speaks with Travis Finck, the Executive Director of The Commission on Legal Counsel for Indigents (CLCI). He brings with him an infectious optimism and deep knowledge of North Dakota public defense.
The first half of the episode will teach you all about the formation of the public defense system in North Dakota and how it transformed into what it is today.
Then, he’ll dive into the unique challenges within the public defense and criminal system of the state. Travis will share how he is responding to high turnover rates and low funding while trying to improve public defense in North Dakota for the better.
With only 20-30% of individuals charged with misdemeanors in the state getting public defenders, it’s obvious that many people are going without needed legal representation. Travis dreams of a day when North Dakota can boast a great public defender system.
Key Topics/Takeaways:
- Travis’s background in public defense. [5:49]
- The creation of the North Dakota public defense system. [9:20]
- Hourly rates and statutory caps. [12:42]
- Turnover rates. [23:24]
- The bail system in North Dakota. [35:56]
- North Dakota determination standards. [43:28]
- Recoupment fees. [54:09]
- Where Travis wants public defense to go in North Dakota. [58:52]
Guest:
Travis Finck, Executive Director, The Commission on Legal Counsel for Indigents (CLCI)
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
“We like to think we have good people, and when you can't pay good people what they're worth, there's natural inclination for them to look elsewhere. And I don't fault them for it.” (24:19, Travis)
“Justice delayed is justice denied.” (33:06, Travis)
“Us not being able to staff that office is not a public defense issue. That's a criminal justice system-wide issue.” (39:41, Travis)
“The people that are doing this work, sure as hell ain't doing it for the money. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do.” (40:18, Travis)
“My personal position on the fees is it's the only constitutional right that I'm aware of that's conditioned upon paying a fee.” (56:19, Travis)
“I don't wanna be known as a sufficient public defense system. I wanna be known as a great public defense system.” (59:44, Travis)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
75: Opioids, Addiction, and the Alabama Despair Machine w/Leah Nelson and Stacey Fuller
For many, the hearing about the opioid epidemic invokes images deindustrialized towns in West Virginia and Kentucky, but it was actually Alabama with the highest rate of per capita prescription.
Today on the show, Hunter Spoke with Leah Nelson, Research Director at Alabama Appleseed, and Stacey Fuller, a Certified Recovery Support Specialist, to discuss the impacts of opioids and addiction in the state of Alabama.
As with most states, Alabama approached addiction not as a illness to be treated, but as a wrong to be punished. For decades, the state failed to provide resources to those battling with addiction and sought to criminalize such behaviors. Predictably, this did little to curb crime, addiction, or overdose deaths.
While it may not happen overnight, Leah and Stacey are certain that by continuing to highlight the issues facing the state, they will be able to turn the state towards a more rehabilitative model.
Guest:
Leah Nelson, Research Director, Alabama Appleseed
Stacey Fuller, Certified Recovery Support Specialist
Key Topics:
How Stacey became involved with the legal system [6:30]
Leah sets the stage for how Alabama approaches the problem of addiction [7:45]
How the system makes addiction more prevalent [13:45]
What is happening at the legislature that enables this? [18:53]
What Stacey provides to people fighting addiction [27:40]
Inroads made with judges and prosecutors to seek non punitive solutions [31:20]
Cost of Addiction in Alabama [33:00]
What has Opioids shown about other drug use in the state [38:45]
How to ensure we don’t redo the war on drugs [42:41]
Lack o trust in the system [49:40]
Moving Alabama forward [53:00]
Alabama Felon Registration Card [59:40]
Resources:
Alabama Appleseed Bitter Pill Report
http://alabamaappleseed.org/a-bitter-pill/
Empire of Pain: The Secret History of the Sackler Dynasty
https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Pain-History-Sackler-Dynasty-ebook/dp/B08ND91K6G
Addiction Treatment Centers Alabama
https://americanaddictioncenters.org/treatment-centers/alabama
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
74: How Public Defenders can Take Back the Public Safety Narrative w/Emily-Galvin Almanza and Danielle Hopkins
In this episode, Hunter is joined by two inspiring guests from Partners for Justice, a nonprofit organization dedicated to providing support services to people facing criminal charges while helping public defenders protect people from incarceration and other criminal penalties.
Emily Galvin Almanza is the Founder and Co-Executive Director of Partners for Justice, as well as an advocate in the Harris County Public Defender Office. Starting this organization, which is the only one of its kind in existence, she brings insights into its mission and goals. She’ll share how holistic representation affects recidivism rates and why it is so effective.
Then, you’ll hear from Client Advocate Danielle Hopkins about how she supports her clients by telling their stories and putting the narrative back into their hands. By forcing judges and prosecutors to see her clients as whole people, carceral outcomes have declined.
Finally, you’ll learn about cash bail in Harris County and why it is so problematic. In fact, it’s causing some innocent people to sit in prison for over a year!
Emily and Danielle dream of a world where people in the indigent system always have top-notch representation. Overall, their work helps people become unstuck from the legal system, turning lives around and saving valuable resources.
[Editoral Note: At the end of the episode, Danielle mentioned SB 26. She was actually refering to SB 6. Furterhmore, the amount of time people spend in Pre-Trial is now commonly ranging from 160-250 days]
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Emily and Danielle’s background. [4:17]
- What Emily looks for in a client advocate. [12:31]
- What Danielle has learned from her time as a client advocate. [18:02]
- Danielle shares success stories. [28:02]
- How holistic representation has affected recidivism rates. [31:40]
- Pushback to holistic representation. [36:36]
- Danielle’s advice to people who want to work in her role. [39:53]
- Where Emily wants the program to go and the roadblocks to getting there. [42:52]
- Assigned council. [47:36]
- Problems with cash bail. [54:05]
Guests:
Emily Galvin Almanza, Founder and Co-Executive Director Partners for Justice
Danielle Hopkins, Partners for Justice Advocate
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
“Once you see the sausage getting made, I think it's hard to ever want to eat it again.” (20:51, Hunter)
“People who are sitting in jail today cannot wait for policy approaches that accept their suffering as a necessary cost of system change. I think part of an abolitionist approach has to be fighting for radical change, the erasure of an oppressive and racist system in a way that does not accept the non-consensual suffering of others as a necessary cost.” (22:37, Emily)
“I feel that this work is actually crucial to undermining the system's ability to perpetually exist as it does. And I feel that we are dismantling it. We're just dismantling it in ways that perhaps are too subtle for people to notice.” (26:40, Emily)
“Governments are willing to invest in their public defender once they fully understand what public defenders can do.” (36:16, Emily)
“I like completing things and like achieving something and doing this role, I feel like I'm tangibly doing something for clients as opposed to like feeling like I'm just constantly not able to do anything.” [40:29, Danielle)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
73: How a Sixth Amendment Center Report Sparked Change in Utah Public Defense w/Richard Mauro
Today, Hunter spoke with Richard Mauro, Executive Director of the Salt Lake City Legal Defender Association, to talk all things Utah Public Defense.
Not even a decade ago, Utah and Pennsylvania stood as the last two states who provided exactly zero dollars towards Public Defense. As expected, this created a patchwork system in the state that left places like Utah and Salt Lake County able to afford full time public defense offices while the more rural areas of the state were forced to rely on the cheapest flat rate contract imaginable.
As a result of these flat rate contracts, a culture of met and plea arose. Surprisingly, it was the absence of appeals, despite countless stories of ineffective assistance of counsel, that drove people to start evaluating Public Defense in Utah. As alarm bells started going off, the Sixth Amendment Center’s 2015 report made even more issues come to light.
By the end of this episode, you will have a clear understanding of what has gone right, wrong, and what sparked the change in Utah Public Defense.
Guest:
Richard Mauro, Executive Director, Salt Lake City Legal Defender Association
Key Topics:
- How Richard got into Public Defense [5:30]
- Differences in Federal Public Defense and Utah’s Public Defense [6:54]
- Utah Public Defense Before Sixth Amendment Center [8:51]
- How did the lack of Appeals show issues with Utah PD [11:30]
- Major findings of the 6AC Report [14:12]
- How the politics of SLC help Public Defense [18:00]
- What calculus went into the structure of Utah Public Defense? [22:50]
- How does the structure of Utah politics help Public Defense? [26:18]
- How does the Utah Public Defense grant system work? [29:03]
- Keeping the grant money coming [31:55]
- Long term goals of the system [38:45]
- Salt Lake City Public Defense successes and challenges [42:57]
Resources:
SLDA Website
Sixth Amendment Center Report
https://sixthamendment.org/6ac/6AC_utahreport.pdf
Utah Indigent Defense Commission
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
72: Why it is Time to End Life Sentences w/Alexandra Bailey and Nazgol Ghandnoosh
Most people believe that life sentences keep people safe, but the evidence actually points to the opposite. In fact, life sentences were never originally designed to last for life.
In this episode, Hunter speaks with two individuals from the Sentencing Project: Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment Alexandra Bailey and Senior Research Analyst Nazgol Ghandnoosh.
They will share evidence to support their claim that safer communities can be created without harsh sentencing. Then, they’ll explain ways that life imprisonment and mandatory minimum negatively affect both families and the criminal system as a whole.
Alexandra and Nazgol both agree that life without parole should be abolished completely, and they’ll give you more effective alternatives that could be implemented instead of harsh sentencing.
By the time you’re done listening, you’ll be questioning whether the United States has gone too far when it comes to sentencing.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Nazgol shares her background. [5:36]
- Why life sentences aren’t actually helpful. [7:13]
- Tough on crime. [9:05]
- How lengthy sentences have impacted the criminal system. [12:49]
- Extreme sentences and age. [20:19]
- Why life without parole sentences should be abolished entirely. [41:42]
- Mandatory minimums. [47:30]
- Alternatives to harsh sentencing. [53:25]
Guests:
Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment, Sentencing Project
Nazgol Ghandnoosh, Senior Research Analyst, Sentencing Project
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
“The death penalty needs to be abolished. It's a barbaric, antiquated punishment that does not serve any function in a modern, civilized society at all. It's gotta go away.” (1:22, Hunter)
“If policing and incarceration made a nation safe, this would be the safest nation on earth.” (9:53 Alexandra)
“When you imprison someone for decades on end, you are holding people incarcerated who are no longer a public safety risk. In several cases like this, the person who they harmed or the survivors of their crime no longer want them to even be incarcerated. But the system's hands are tied by mandatory sentencing policies.” (16:25, Nazgol)
“If mandatory minimums and these extreme sentences are not working, and they're not, then we need to figure out what we're gonna do about it.” (27:52, Alexandra)
“Life sentences and extreme sentences are not only ineffective, but they're actually counterproductive. They're preventing us from actually pursuing policies that would effectively reduce crime rates and prevent future victimization.” (42:54, Nazgol)
“People are human and I think we have to look at this whole system with a lot more compassion.” (55:01, Alexandra)
Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
71: Every Public Defender Office Needs an Immigration Attorney w/Raha Jorjani
Raha Jorjani is an Immigration Defense Attorney in Alameda County, home of California’s first public defender Immigration Representation Unit. Because our immigration law is founded on the principle that deportation is a civil issue and not a criminal proceeding which, there are few immigration specific public defender units. This denies millions of people the basic right of public defense.
This episode covers the ideals of America and how our government is willfully disregarding its responsibility to help the people fleeing the countries we have destabilized. Raha shares her personal experience working with clients who may appear like criminals on paper but are often victims of wider circumstances enacted by our own government. To tell their story without those crucial details is not just dishonest but dehumanizing.
Raha hopes that by sharing these stories and making Americans aware of the reality of what immigrants go through, just to have the opportunity to plead their case, we can break down these antiquated systems. Her office is the first of its kind and is being replicated across the country, hopefully to one day become the standard. America is founded on the principle that all men are created equal so it is up to us to ensure that includes the right to due process, evidentiary hearings and access to counsel. Without these standards of human treatment we are failing as Americans.
Key Takeaways:
[7:27] Raha’s journey into the role of removal defense attorney
[11:00] Providing seamless representation from one system to the next
[12:40] The distinction between criminal versus civil protections
[19:00] How the needs of non-citizens differ from citizens within criminal proceedings
[25:30] The difficulty comes in conveying the complicated information accurately to the client
[30:00] How policies have changed through each administration
[39:00] The Department of Homeland Security is using detention as a litigation tool
[46:10] The burden to prove why you should be given the opportunity to remain in America
[50:00] Offering asylum for our benefit and not on principle
[53:50] Walter’s case: The consistent failings of our legal system
[60:30] The opportunity we have to make a positive change
Guest:
Raha Jorjani, Deputy Public Defender and Supervising Supervising Immigration Defense Attorney, Alameda County Public Defender Office
Resources:
Alameda Public Defender Office Immigration Unit https://publicdefender.acgov.org/Immigration.page
Patel v Garland https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/596/20-979/
Fong Yue Ting v. United States https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/149/698/
Demore v Kim https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/538/510/
Jennings v Rodriguez https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/583/15-1204/
Silent Holocaust Guatemala https://cja.org/what-we-do/litigation/the-guatemala-genocide-case/
Manufacturing Consent by Edward Sherman and Noam Chomsky (El Salvador) https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0375714499
Somoza Family Dynasty of Nicaragua https://www.brown.edu/Research/Understanding_the_Iran_Contra_Affair/n-background.php
Chilie https://www.tni.org/es/node/1362
The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins (Indonesia, Brazil and many others) https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Method-Washingtons-Anticommunist-Crusade/dp/1541742400
CIA Secret War (Laos and Cambodia) https://warontherocks.com/2017/02/the-secret-war-that-transformed-the-cia/ https://www.npr.org/2017/01/23/511185078/america-in-laos-traces-the-militarization-of-the-cia
Iran https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthrew-irans-democracy-in-four-days
Title The Story of Walter Cruz-Zavala
The Long Campaign to Deport Walter Cruz-Zavala (theintercept.com)
https://theintercept.com/2022/09/20/walter-cruz-zavala-el-salvador-state-of-exception/
Memorable Quotes:
“In the immigration system, the government can put you behind bars and then tell you it’s your burden to prove. They don’t have to justify why they imprisoned you. You have to justify why you should be free. So you have to prove why you’re not a danger to the community, you have to prove that you’re not a flight risk and Hunter, that's people who are eligible for bond.” [33:40]
“The power of detention is ultimately used as a litigation tool by the Department of Homeland Security. This is one of the only areas where, if you win, you stay in.”[39:30]
“When people end up in the deportation system, it is almost always after they have been dealt with by the criminal legal system. So even to the extent that people believe in the criminal legal system and the need for accountability and punishment; the double irony is that these folks have already been through that system, so they’ve already served their time.” [43:40]
“Our relationships with countries define how we view people. So, if we don’t agree with a certain country’s position, we tend to welcome people from those countries because we basically want to further entrench the idea that what’s happening there is bad. Whereas other people from other countries could be facing similar types of persecution or violence and we have very many closed door policies.” [50:24]
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
70: Challenging America's Punishment Bureaucracy w/Alec Karakatsanis
Today, Hunter spoke with Alec Karakatsanis, Founder and Executive Director of Civil Rights Corps, for a discussion about dismantling America’s punishment bureaucracy. With his work at Civil Rights Corps, Alec brought to light the immense human suffering caused by the punishment bureaucracy by highlighting the stories of people caught in it and then pushing massive class action lawsuits.
This model of story collecting, storytelling, and then systemic challenges is one the Alec hopes public defender offices around the country will replicate as the success his organization gets in challenging cash bail becomes more widespread.
However great the successes have been, the bureaucracy will not crumble with a few cuts here and there. Alec, like many of Hunter’s previous guests, calls for more systemic level thinking, systemic level challenges, and implores those with exposure to the usual cruelty of our legal system to collect and share those stories. With enough of those stories, Alec believes the heart’s and minds of attorney and non-attorney alike will change and embrace a more just, equitable, and fair legal system
Guest:
Alec Karakatsanis, Founder and Executive Director, Civil Rights Corps
Key Topics:
- Alec’s Career [5:30]
- Changing the Heart’s and Minds of attorneys and non-attorneys about our legal system [7:44]
- The balance Public Defenders strike between the current case and the future one [24:58]
- The issues with Legal Academia [29:58]
- How to bridge the gap between different parts of the political left [33:40]
Resources:
Usual Cruelty by Alec Karakatsanis
https://www.amazon.com/Usual-Cruelty-Complicity-Criminal-Injustice/dp/1620975270
Civil Rights Corps
Accountability New York
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
69: The Need for Holistic Family Representation w/Center for Family Representation New York
When the whole family is involved, it can make all the difference.
In this episode, Hunter speaks with three inspiring individuals out of Family Representation New York—Parent Advocate Supervisor Teyora Graves-Ferrell, Social Work Supervisor Ysmerlyn Murshed, and Senior Staff Attorney Vasili Stotis.
Each one plays a very specific and important role within their organization, and they explain how they work together to make a positive difference for families in their own ways. Through this, you’ll see that specialization can be a strong superpower for everyone involved in public defense.
Then, they’ll give you a sneak peek into what public defense is like in New York and the unique challenges it brings. Through the city funding many of Family Representation New York’s programs, they are making an investment into the long-term healing of families and the system as a whole.
This is a model that many of the smaller public defense offices are moving towards, and hopefully, with time more of the bigger offices can get the resources they need to put this in place. But for right now, New York serves as the perfect example of how investing in families benefits everyone.
Key Topics/Takeaways:
- Teyora, Ysmerlyn, & Vasili share their backgrounds. [4:26]
- What their office does and the roles they fill. [7:09]
- Why specialization works so well. [11:41]
- Client reactions to their structure. [16:43]
- How being in New York City affects their work. [23:58]
- Why early intervention is so important. [34:04]
- Funding. [37:56]
- Ways they create a space for people to be heard. [45:34]
- How civil courtroom and civil proceedings are used against families. [50:24]
- What they hope to see in the future. [52:58]
Guests:
Teyora Graves-Ferrell, Parent Advocate Supervisor
Ysmerlyn Murshed, Social Work Supervisor
Vasili Stotis, Senior Staff Attorney
Resources:
Center for Family Representation New York
Just Making a Change for Families
Is N.Y.'s Child Weldfare System Racist? Some of its own workers say yes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/nyregion/nyc-acs-racism-abuse-neglect.html
Memorable Quotes:
“I do this work because at one point in my life, I was a part of this work.” (5:57, Teyora)
“Public defense and everything around criminal defense or civil defense and all these things representing people is teamwork. It's a team effort. And when you don't have that team, it doesn't work well.” (6:58, Hunter)
“Sometimes we are the first people to listen to our clients' stories without judgment, without blaming or shaming them. So I definitely think that makes a big impact and a big difference on how we are showing up.” (19:52, Teyora)
“A lot of the systems in place are racist systems and that can be difficult to express in a courtroom. People don't want to hear that. And even though the systems themselves are built off of these racist policies a lot of judges and a lot of prosecutors don't want to deal with that.” (32:09, Vasili)
“Anyone can be impacted. We've represented case workers, we've represented doctors, nurses, parole officers. In some ways, while the system can target certain communities, it doesn't discriminate.” (Ysmerlyn, 53:52)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
68: Why do we Punish People? w/Kaelen Perrochet
Why do we punish people? What are the goals of punishment and the legal system? At some point in time, we stopped asking ourselves these questions and it led to a legal system that is disjointed, inconsistent, and unnecessarily cruel.
Today, Hunter spoke with Kaelen Perrochet, a Law Student at UCLA Law School, to dig through some of the philosophical underpinnings of any criminal legal system.
For many, people will say that we punish people because it is what they deserve, but what should our legal system look like if that were the actual justification for punishment? For others, we punish people to deter others from committing crimes, but does punishment deter anyone? Rehabilitation and restoration sound good, but can they functionally create a consistent system that people are willing to accept as being legitimate?
All these questions and more will be explored in this awesome episode about the purposes of punishment!
Guest:
Kaelen Perrochet, Law Student, UCLA Law School
Key Topics:
- Why study the Philosophy of Law and Punishment [5:30]
- What changed through studying these topics [8:30]
- Retribution theory [11:05]
- Deterrence Theory [16:00]
- Rehabilitation Theory [20:00]
- Restorative Theory [23:00]
- Issues with Prosecutors under various theories [26:45]
- Where has restorative and rehabilitative models been used? [29:35]
- Is punishment necessary? [33:00]
- Does incarceration make us safer? [38:00]
- Other theories [41:46]
- Felon Disenfranchisement and its impacts [45:45]
- What do each of these theories look like when taken to their logical conclusions? [54:30]
Resources:
Punishment and Inclusion by Andrew Dilts
https://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Inclusion-Membership-American-Liberalism/dp/0823262421
Punishment by Thom Brooks
https://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Thom-Brooks/dp/0415431824
Philosophy of Law: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) by Raymond Wacks
https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Law-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/0199687005
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
67: Managed Assigned Counsel: A Savvy Solution or a Simple Stop Gap? w/Jim Bethke
Can a managed assigned council system be a workable solution to indigent defense problems?
Jim Bethke is the former executive director of the Texas Indigent Defense Commission and the current director of the Managed Assigned Counsel Office in San Antonio. In this episode, he talks about the system that he helped create and the areas he thinks still need work.
There are three main types of indigent defense representation delivery models: full-time public defender, office contract counsel, and assigned counsel. Texas relies heavily on assigned council, and there are both pros and cons to that. Jim explains why the system is structured this way and its strengths and weaknesses.
Then, he talks about the impressive work he’s doing in San Antonio to ensure fair representation for all and the ways his office is supporting behavioral health intervention.
Overall, Jim has an incredibly vast career in public defense and a wealth of knowledge to give. After listening, you’ll finally know your take on assigned council in public defense.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Background on Jim’s career in public defense. [6:03]
- What surprised Jim when he took over the Texas Indigent Defense Commission. [23:16]
- Why Texas has managed assigned council. [25:46]
- Reasons some of the larger Texas cities don’t have a public defender office. [32:22]
- Pay rates. [38:22]
- Behavioral health programs. [44:01]
- What is happening in response to Dobbs. [56:49]
- Where Jim wants to see the future of Texas public defense go. [1:04:23]
Guest:
Jim Bethke, Director, Managed Assigned Counsel Office, Bexar County, Texas
Resources:
How Lubbock became the model for Indigent Defense
Public Defense Innovation in Texas Law Review
Bexar County Managed Assigned Counsel
Memorable Quotes:
“We are the voice of the poor. They have no voice.” (23:00, Jim)
“A managed assigned council program in many regards is more challenging to run than a public defender office because you're utilizing private attorneys. They're independent contractors, and you can encourage and you can promote and you can provide support, but you can't really direct their operations like you can with an employee.” (27:33, Jim)
“Some folks in the private bar are not that good, but you have also some incredible talent. And if you can get that incredible talent to participate as part of your either managed assigned or private defender, in some regards, you're going to have even better than a public defender.” (35:24, Jim)
“In the numbers that we're dealing with in rural Texas, it's not going to break the bank to get a constitutionally compliant system that's good and fulfills our constitutional and state law requirements.” (55:28, Jim)
“Your rights are only as good as you can defend them in a court of law.” (56:38, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
66: Is Incrementalism Enough to Fix the Criminal Legal System w/Jeff Blackburn
Can people incarcerated afford to wait for small, gradual change? What happens to the people incarcerated if the system breaks? What is the right balance between the needs of the current case vs the needs of the future case? How do Public Defenders counter the decades long strategy of the Conservative legal movement with their own strategy?
All these questions, and more, are pondered by Hunter and his guest today, Jeff Blackburn. During his career, Jeff worked as a criminal defense attorney, impact litigation lawyer and helped to found and operate the Texas Innocence Project. Through it all, Jeff’s aimed to foster and execute a strategic vision for indigent defense and civil liberties that counter’s the work of prosecutors and police. In his eyes, public defenders and other justice minded individuals are in the conflict business and the must learn to value the future battles as much as the current ones. To fail to do so will leave them fighting a battle against an enemy that already made the fight unwinnable, but what is the right balance?
Hopefully, this discussion and the myriad of questions that arise from it will spark your own thinking about how to move towards more strategic levels of thinking.
Guest:
Jeff Blackburn, Criminal defense and Impact attorney, Co-Founder, Texas Innocence Project
Key Takeaways:
- Jeff’s career [8:30]
- What is impact litigation [16:24]
- Victory in the Tulia Case and the Lesson’s learned from it [17:20]
- The Texas Innocence Project [21:54]
- Impacts of the Tim Cole Case [26:00]
- Learning strategy from the history NAACP Legal Fund [28:30]
- Countering the Conservative Legal Movement [33:38]
- Is Incrementalism Enough [38:30]
- How to balance current case vs future case [46:00]
- The structural/historical obstacles in many state [53:20]
- What happens if the system breaks [57:40]
- Is education the way to solve this [1:01:00]
- The case for hope [1:10:00]
Resources:
Tulia Case:
https://www.aclu.org/other/racist-arrests-tulia-texas
https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2002-04-19/85638/
https://www.myplainview.com/news/article/5-million-settlement-reached-in-Tulia-lawsuit-8757623.php
https://www.salon.com/2003/04/09/tulia_2/
Tim Cole’s Case
https://innocenceproject.org/cases/timothy-cole/
Jeff Calling out Dallas’ Wrongful Conviction Issues
Why Jeff Left the Innocence Project
More of Jeff’s Work
austinchronicle.com/news/2008-04-04/608555/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
65: What Happened to the Prisoners Stuck in Jail During Hurricane Ian? w/Kathy Smith
For Public Defenders who serve in coastal areas, the story on toady’s show will be all too familiar. As Hurricane Ian barrelled toward the Florida coast, a state of emergency was declared and evacuation plans started to come together, but as is almost always the case, no one thought of those incarcerated.
Today, Hunter spoke with Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender in the 20th Judicial District of Florida, to discuss the impacts of the storm on those left in jail. Dating as far back as memory allows, state’s failed their obligations to protect the lives of people both in and out of jail when natural disasters strike, and Hurricane Ian was no exception. For days, people, many of whom were in jail simply because they could not afford to pay bail, lived with raw sewage and without clean drinking water.
Luckily, no one died from the state’s neglect, but this episode serves as a powerful warning and reminder for those with a duty to protect people’s lives: when a natural disaster strikes, remember the people who cannot evacuate and think of a way to keep them alive.
Guest:
Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender, 20th Judicial District, Florida
Key Takeaways:
- How Kathy got into this work [6:50]
- Historical response to natural disasters in the 20th District [10:50]
- The response to Hurricane Ian in the 20th District [12:34]
- Who was in the Ft Meyer’s jail and what conditions did they face [18:27]
- Why pre-trial release is so important [24:42]
- Impacts and the way forward after Ian [26:41]
- Does Florida care about the Constitution or just the part it likes? [31:00]
- Changes for the Future [34:43]
- People arrested during the storm [38:00]
- Advice to other Public Defenders [41:20]
Resources:
USA Today Coverage of those left behind after Ian
People left in prison during:
Hurricane Ike, Maria, Matthew, Irene etc.
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
64: How Public Defense can Win the Media Battle w/Maggie Shepard
How can journalists and public defenders work together to bring awareness to the real issues plaguing our court system? Today, Hunter spoke with Maggie Shepard, Director of Communications at the New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender, to discuss how public defenders can use media relations to deepen their connection with the community they are working to protect.
A policy can only be effective if it has adequate momentum behind it and with most offices unwilling to comment publicly, it makes it difficult for the public to fully grasp the issues. There is a lot of bureaucracy in our court system but it does serve a purpose, to protect the rights of the accused. Everytime a public defender refuses to make a comment they miss the opportunity to highlight the deeper issues surrounding the case, which can be done while honoring the anonymity of the client.
Today’s conversation highlights the real need for communication between the public and the courts and between journalists and public defenders.
Guest:
Maggie Shepard, Director of Communications, New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender
Key Takeaways:
- Utilizing media relations to fight at the systemic level [2:30]
- Maggie’s decision to leave journalism to do media relation training [8:10]
- How narrative and perception shapes reality [10:15]
- Courtroom journalism rarely grants time to scrutinize the power structure at play [14:30]
- Deciphering who counts as an “official” source? [19:00]
- A different way for journalists to get a powerful and evocative story [28:00]
- Teaching public defenders to speak to the broader story unfolding [34:00]
- Policy is only as good as the awareness and pressure behind it [39:14]
- Bringing media attention to the positive effects of good reform [42:50]
- Using language in a way that reminds the public of the process [50:00]
- It’s possible for public defenders to have media relations without being quoted [53:00]
- Prison reform is the biggest issue facing New Mexico today [55:40]
- Teaching journalists what they don’t learn in school [58:00]
Resources:
Contact Maggie
Contact Heather at NAPD
https://www.lopdnm.us/media-ipra/
Memorable Quotes:
“I was tired of being part of the propaganda machine, honestly, I was tired of playing a harmful role in the narratives that I was telling, so I left my job.” [8:19] -Shepard
“There is a desire, within the department, within the attorneys, to learn how to do this better and there is very clearly a need in the community to have better access to the public defense world and for the information we have as public defenders to get out into the world, into our communities.” [9:27] -Shepard
“There’s not a lot of thoughtfulness beyond what's in front of me, the actors and the actions and that’s what we focus on. We might call into question the after and the action but we’re not calling into question the machine, the bigger power structure that’s there.” [14:50] -Shepard
“Good policy, not heard by anybody, isn’t good policy.It’s just a good idea that nobody heard and that's where I think a lot of public defenders and people who want to push these policies fail to understand that policy gets pushed when people hear about it and apply pressure.” [39:14] -Parnell
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
63: Why do We Punish Domestic Violence Survivors? w/Alexandra Bailey
When does a victim become a suspect? Very often, our legal system cares about someone's status as a victim when it allows the system to incarcerate someone. As soon as you stand in that goal, any harm done to you matters not.
On today's episode, Hunter spoke with Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment at the Sentencing Project, to discuss the ways our legal system punishes Domestic Violence Survivors. Specifically, they dive deep into the "Failure to Protect laws" that showcase the latent sexism prevalent in our legal system and the twisted ways in which prosecutors ignore self defense claims when it aids their goal of securing higher conviction rates.
While some states offer hope at a future where these cases are not happening around the country, places like Oklahoma remind us there is a long uphill battle that people like Alexandra are at the forefront of to end our brutally harsh punishment bureaucracy.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- How Alexandra got into her line of work. [5:54]
- An overview of some laws that the Sentencing Project is trying to reform. [7:53]
- Ways women are uniquely affected by the legal system. [12:20]
- The DVSJA law. [23:14]
- Why having a clear and trauma-informed legal standard is important. [29:46]
- Failure to protect laws. [37:24]
- Why the policy needs to be changed in Oklahoma. [53:07]
- What the Sentencing Project is all about. [57:23]
Guest:
Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment, Sentencing Project
Resources:
Sentencing Project DVSJA Bill News
She never hurt her kids. So why is she in prison?
Memorable Quotes:
“It doesn't really matter the circumstances. Women are seen by the legal system as being less credible.” (12:25, Alexandra)
“As of 2020, 47 out of every 100,000 women were in prison, so this is not a failure of any one particular individual. This is the failure of a system that has not provided what families need in order to succeed.” (17:50, Alexandra)
“God bless the public defenders of America because they are so frequently trying to explain trauma to deaf ears. So shout out to all of them.” (29:30, Alexandra)
“There's no shame in improving things. There is no shame in going back and learning and growing. We do it as individuals. There's no reason that this system can't do it too.” (36:32, Alexandra)
“This system takes tools with good intention and wields them in the worst possible way.” (39:11, Alexandra)
“I think we need to start looking at situations as tragedies as opposed to an opportunity to nail someone.” (47:12, Alexandra)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
62: Why Does the Aurora City Council Want to Dismantle the Public Defender Office w/Doug Wilson
Today, Hunter sat down once again with Doug Wilson, Chief Public Defender in the Aurora Municipal Public Defender Office, to discuss what has unfolded in Aurora, Colorado over the past year. Often, people will ask the question, “Why do you think we don’t fund Public Defender Offices the way we should?” While there are many potential answers to that question, this episode highlights one of the most important ones: Policy makers have an exponentially more tough time incarcerating people when there is a zealous advocate both in and out of the court room for the rights of the accused.
Starting back to last year, the Aurora Public Defender Office has been instrumental in highlighting the misconduct and illegal activity of the prosecution and police of the city. At the same time, the city council marched on towards its mission to incarcerate as many people as possible in a misguided effort to make their community safer. At every step of the way, Doug and his office have been pushing back against the city’s goals.
Now it seems, the city is tired of the pushback. Tune in to hear how the city is attempting to use the language of cost efficiency to mask their true intentions: dismantling the most powerful advocate against their march towards increased incarceration.
Guests:
Doug Wilson, Chief Public Defender, Aurora, Colorado Municipal Public Defender Office
Key Topics and Takeaways:
The City Attorney’s Brady violations and the PDO’s role in exposing them [8:22]
How does the PDO impede the goal of the city council [20:41]
How did the city support its mandatory minimum sentencing [25:13]
Is the city council now seeking to dismantle the office? [30:20]
The response from the community [38:03]
The media’s failure to cover this topic [44:30]
Why the fiscal efficiency argument is bogus [52:00]
What is next for Aurora [59:25]
Resources:
Aurora city attorneys review, notify impacted defendants of lacking ‘Brady letters’
Aurora lawmakers give 1st OK to mandatory jail time for shoplifting, despite lack of cost data
Aurora lawmakers impose mandatory 3 days in jail for shoplifting more than $300
Impacts of Mandatory Minimum Sentencing:
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/end-mandatory-minimums
ACLU Report on Municipal Courts Colorado
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
61: Uncovering the Misconduct of Police, Prosecutors, and Judges w/Johann Drolshagen
Thanks to the 1963 case of Brady v. Maryland, prosecutors are supposed to give the defense attorneys any evidence that may be beneficial to the defense’s case. Despite this requirement, police misconduct has been allowed to fester for decades as prosecutors and judges openly flaunt their mandates share this evidence. Furthermore, the legal profession itself fails to police prosecutors and judges who allow the misdeeds of police to go unchecked. This entire cycle calls into question decades worth of prosecutions because of potential failures to disclose evidence, but what can be done if everyone in the system is playing a role in allowing the corruption to continue?
This week, Hunter spoke with Johann Drolshagen, to answer that very question. Johann is the CEO of Level Playing Field solutions, and has helped to create a nationwide, publicly accessible database, called the brady list, to make it easier for communities to report and track misconduct by police, prosecutors, and judges. By bringing this information into the light of day, Johann hopes to combat the corruption gripping millions of Americans trapped in our criminal legal system.
Guests:
Johann Drolshagen, CEO Level Playing Field Solutions
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Johann got Involved in the criminal legal system reform movement [6:40]
What is Brady [14:00]
How widespread is the issue? [14:40]
How police, prosecutors, and judges skirt Brady requirements [19:00]
The issues with attorneys policing attorneys [26:00]
What is the driving force behind these issues [30:00]
How the Brady List holds the powerful to account [32:00]
The issues facing Missouri and Oklahoma [42:53]
How to cut through the institutional hurdles [1:01:00]
Do people care about Due Process? [1:05:55]
What have the positive impacts of the list been? [1:10:35]
Resources:
Citizens Overseeing Police Oklahoma
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
60: How Kansas Public Defense Got Headed in the Right Direction w/Heather Cessna
Heather Cessna, executive director of the Kansas Board of Indigent Services, is dedicated to positively transforming public defense in her state. Since she’s come on board, the quality of services has drastically increased as well as the working conditions for public defenders.
In this episode, you’ll learn the structure of the Kansas Indigent Defense System, its current problems, and recent wins within the state. Heather has successfully reformed much of the system, and she’ll walk you through her methods and tactics.
This episode proves the difference it makes when an indigent defense system has strong leaders. In her time as executive director, Heather has quickly moved the system in the right direction.
There might still be a long way to go, but Heather brings to this episode a breath of fresh air and a sense of much-needed optimism.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Heather’s background in public defense. [5:25]
- The structure of the Kansas Indigent Defense System. [10:56]
- Problems Heather has tackled under her leadership. [17:00]
- Heather’s advocacy methods. [23:21]
- What was learned from the surveys. [38:35]
- Recent wins. [48:36]
- Heather’s secret to her success. [58:37]
- Where Heather wants to see Kansas indigent defense go in the future. [1:01:30]
Guest:
Heather Cessna, Executive Director, Kansas Board of Indigent Defense Services
Resources:
Kansas Board of Indigent Defense Services
Kansas Well Being Committee Work
Memorable Quotes:
“When we understand the failings and successes of other states, we can leverage that in our own.” (3:44, Hunter)
“If you can't refuse cases, you should be able to.” (28:54, Hunter)
“We have a lack of attorneys problem in Kansas generally. We do not have enough counsel in some of our counties to handle the volume of cases that we have.” (34:06, Heather)
“It does us absolutely no good to pretend like we don't have problems.” (40:05, Heather)
“I often tell people if you think the adult level representation or system is struggling, I promise you the juvenile one is probably doing worse.” (1:04:55, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
59: The Lawsuit Pushing to Change the Wisconsin Public Defense w/John Birdsall and Hank Schultz
Today, Hunter is joined by two guests hoping their lawsuit against the state of Wisconsin will bring vital changes to the State’s Public Defender System. Hank Schultz and John Birdsall have a combined experience of more than 40 years of working as criminal defense attorneys in Wisconsin. Through this experience, they are acutely aware of the history of inadequate pay for contract counsel and tough on crime policies that have pushed indigent defense to a state of crisis.
For decades, the state of Wisconsin paid the attorneys willing to serve as contract counsel for indigent clients a paltry rate of $40 per hour. At that rate, attorneys could not even cover the cost of overhead, and that rate did not change from 1995 until 2020. As a result of these low rates, less and less attorneys were willing to take on cases. Meanwhile, more people were forced to wait months and months just to speak to an attorney. In doing so, the state flagrantly violated the right to counsel and right to speedy trial of countless people, and yet, even raise to $70 per hour the state implemented in 2020 was nowhere close to addressing the magnitude of the problem.
Despite the main issue the state faces being the low pay for contract counsel, Hank and John have sought a creative remedy in their lawsuit. By the end of this episode, you will have a clear understanding of how the state ended being sued, why a lawsuit was necessary, and the potential ways other state’s may be able to learn from this case!!
Guests:
Hank Schultz, Retired Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Contract Counsel Wisconsin Public Defense
John Birdsall, Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Contract Counsel Wisconsin Public Defense
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Hank and John got Involved in Public Defense in Wisconsin [9:20]
Structural Issues with Wisconsin Public Defense [17:20]
How long has Attorney Pay been an Issue in the State [21:17]
History of the Tough on Crime Policies of Wisconsin [24:35]
Attorney Shortages Around the State [29:20]
Goals of the Lawsuit [39:28]
Explaining the Strategy of the Lawsuit [43:10]
Response from the State [50:30]
Response from the Public Defender’s Office [54:33]
Resources:
History of Low Pay for Contract Counsel
More Insight into Low Pay in Wisconsin
Class action lawsuit calls out lack of state public defenders
Rural Defendants Sue Wisconsin over Indigent Defense
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
58: Are Public Defense Unions the Key to Systemic Reform? w/Sam Allison-Natale and Bob Kolstad
Are public defense unions the solution to reform?
In this episode, Hunter speaks with Sam Allison-Natale, Executive Director of the Kansas Holistic Defenders, and Bob Kolstad, a public defender in Hennepin County, Minnesota.
They’ll walk you through everything you need to know about public defense unions and the philosophy behind them. Giving you a behind-the-scenes view, you’ll learn the realities behind unions, the goals, and why they are necessary.
Then, Bob and Sam will discuss collective organizing and the ethics around it. They’ll share how they mobilize public defenders and how they get past the individualistic society of today.
With their endless enthusiasm, Bob and Sam share a refreshing vision of unity and hope.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Bob and Sam talk about how they got into public defense. [7:02]
- Why the Minnesota union is so successful. [16:45]
- The ethics of unionization. [24:00]
- Why people should take the burden of collective action. [37:10]
- The racial lens of collective action. [48:07]
- What led to the Minnesota strike. [57:12]
- Organizing collective action. [1:02:34]
- How to get from a place of individuality to unity. [1:07:50]
Guests:
Sam Allison-Natale, Executive Director, Kansas Holistic Defenders
Bob Kolstad, Public Defender, Hennepin County, Minnesota
Resources:
Public defenders vote to strike; justice system could come to a halt
Minnesota’s top public defender reappointed over objections from rank-and-file
Minnesota’s public defenders vote no confidence in agency head
The Secrets of a Successful Organizer
Michelle Alexander Plea Deal Strike
Memorable Quotes:
“The weakness of unions generally in Kansas is something that affects the shape of Kansas politics across the board.” (23:36, Sam)
“The public defense system is under duress. I mean, severe duress.” (24:50, Bob)
“This discussion about collective action versus individual action, and the fact that everybody is stuck in an individual mindset is what allows the system to function.” (33:00, Sam)
“The fact is that organizing for a strike, building a credible strike threat can get people really, really far in fighting for the kinds of things that they need to have.” (40:39, Bob)
“I think that we are in a situation of such dire need that people want to be invited into a struggle for something greater.” (43:13, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
57: Why More People and Public Defenders Need to Think and Advocate Systemically w/Olayemi Olurin
This week, Hunter speaks with Olayemi Olurin—a political commentator, writer, activist, and public defender out of the New York Legal Aid Society. She has spent her career advocating for systematic change and brings with her a powerful perspective on the criminal justice system.
There are many common lies and misconceptions that circulate about public defense, reform efforts, and the criminal justice system as a whole. Olayemi will refute these lies and give you an inside glimpse into the true reality of the complicated legal system by walking you through the everyday injustices she faces.
She’ll talk about her outreach work and the tactics she uses to change the perspectives of both stakeholders and the general public about why reform is important. Olayemi is dedicated to improving advocacy on a systematic level to combat negative and untrue narratives.
Olayemi dreams of a day when public defenders can truly be the voice of their clients. With her energy and passion, she is carving the path for change.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Olayemi describes her story of going into public defense. [7:28]
- Turning activism into effective policy. [12:28]
- How public defense misconceptions get spread. [31:17]
- Problems with how the justice system treats POC. [35:06]
- What’s going on at Rikers Island. [39:07]
- Speedy trials. [47:46]
- How Olayemi changes perspectives. [51:00]
- Everyday injustices Olayemi sees as a public defender. [54:16]
Guest:
Olayemi Olurin, Public Defender, New York Legal Aid Society
Resources:
https://www.olayemiolurin.com/
Olayemi’s appearance on The Young Turks
Eric Adams' POLICE STATE Is The Future Democrats Want, But Their Voters DON'T: Olayemi Olurin
Eric Adams' INCOMPETENT Rikers' Deaths Response Is An ATTACK On Due Process
Memorable Quotes:
“It's woefully insufficient for the black community to be, to be as overrepresented as we are in terms of incarceration, but underrepresented in the profession. We make a maybe 5% of attorneys.” (11:39, Olayemi)
“I'm more concerned in shifting public consciousness. It doesn't matter to me what other attorneys think.” (18:12, Olayemi)
“My emotional feeling in a state of when somebody pisses you off should not be a reflection of what our criminal system is or the larger consequences at the end of the day.” (27:52, Olayemi)
“That's the problem. It's a society that's really just galvanized around whiteness and policing black and brown bodies.” (35:27, Olayemi)
“The reality is, the only way power is maintained is by subjugating somebody else.” (38:41, Olayemi)
“People often bring the criminal system into their lives because they don't understand how it works.” (55:13, Olayemi)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
56: Could Veteran Treatment Courts be the Key to Unlocking Criminal Justice Reforms? with David Pelletier
Today on the show, Hunter is joined by David Pelletier, a Project Director in the Justice for Veterans division of the National Association of Drug Court Professionals, to discuss Veteran Treatment Courts. Founded by a lone judge in Buffalo, New York, Veteran Treatment Courts follow in the 30+ year tradition of broader treatment courts. These courts all seek to offer alternatives to incarceration that drive towards the root causes of someone’s involvement with the criminal legal system through a culturally competent lens.
For Veteran’s Treatment Court, the goal is to offer veterans suffering with acute medical needs a path towards recovery through a process that saves them from lengthy counter productive prison stints. As David shares, these individualized courts that drive at eliminating the root causes that landed someone tied up with the legal system. Yet while the success of the courts is not in question, the courts offer much more for communities to consider.
In many places, communities find themselves holding two thing ideals: they should be tough on crime, but they should also be caring to their veteran populations, and this is where Veteran Treatment Courts have so much potential. By adopting Veteran Treatment Courts, these communities are exposed to the power of viewing each person through a holistic and individualized lens. Hopefully, this may lead communities to consider other treatment courts or even expanding access to care before someone ever becomes entangled with the legal system.
After this conversation, you will hopefully walk away feeling inspired to think about the ways you could help kickstart similar non-carceral interventions in your own community!!
Guests:
David Pelletier, Project Director, National Association of Drug Court Professionals, Justice For Veterans Division, Marine Corps Veteran
Key Topics and Takeaways:
David’s journey from the Marine Corps to Justice for Veterans [5:38]
What is Veteran Treatment Court? [8:28]
Why do we need a Veteran Treatment Court [14:37]
How can Veteran Treatment Court help criminal justice reform more broadly? [28:40]
How to start a Veteran Treatment Court and what are the benefits of doing so [32:45]
How to represent and relate to a veteran in the legal profession [43:00]
Generational Differences and ongoing issues amongst the Veteran Community [46:40]
Resources:
Justice for Veterans Website State of The American Veteran Survey Search for Veteran Status Brock Hunter Special Considerations for Representing Veterans Brock Hunter's guide to representing Veterans Porter V. McCollum, 558 US 30 – Supreme Court 2009 A lawyer provides ineffective assistance of counsel if he or she does not investigate a client’s military service and present aspects of it as potential mitigating factors.12 The Court held that not only was it relevant that the veteran-defendant had “extensive combat experience” and had “served honorably under extreme hardship and gruesome conditions,” but also “that the jury might find mitigating the intense stress and mental and emotional toll that combat took” on the defendant. One of Hunter’s former guests, Travis Wiener is helped with the making of this really awesome documentary. While it is not in any way affiliated with the Veterans for Justice group, Hunter felt like it was a powerful resource for people to gain insight onto some of the challenges Iraq and Afghanistan veterans face.
Meatgrinder Documentary Website: https://www.meatgrinderdoc.com
Youtube channel: Follow David on Twitter Email David:
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Andrea Lyon on the Need for the Defender General
Every minute of the full conversation with Andrea Lyon is available to listen to, but Hunter wanted to make sure everyone had an easy time accessing the last 30 minutes of the conversation where the discuss a potential Office of the Defender General at the Federal Level!
Guests:
Andrea Lyon, Capital Defense Attorney, Former Capital Public Defender, Author, Educator, and Former Dean of Valparaiso Law School
Resources:
Office of Defender General Website
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
55: Capital Representation and the Office of the Defender General w/Andrea Lyon
Dubbed by the Chicago Tribune as “The Angel of Death Row”, Andrea Lyon is one of the most successful Capital Case Public Defenders in the country, but she is so much more than that. As an author, educator, former law school dean, and advocate for criminal justice reform, there is next to nothing that Andrea has not done in her career.
On today’s episode, Hunter and Andrea discuss her experience as a Capital Public Defender, in Academia, and most importantly, her push to create the Office of the Defender General at the State Level. There are many reasons why it is essential to create the office, but none may be more important than the desperate for Public Defenders and the defense bar to play a larger role in policy decisions at the federal level.
It is so important that Hunter pulled out that section of the conversation and released it as its own episode. If you want to hear Andrea’s thoughts on the Office of the Defender General you can find it at the end of this one or on the other episode released today. However you go about it, it is essential to hear Andrea out and begin thinking seriously about pushing for deeper systemic changes to our legal system.
Guests:
Andrea Lyon, Capital Defense Attorney, Former Capital Public Defender, Author, Educator, and Former Dean of Valparaiso Law School
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How did Andrea Start off in this Work [8:30]
Things that Stood Out in Andrea’s Career as a Capital Public Defender [10:45]
Andrea’s motivation for staying active in Capital Representation [20:47]
The arguments that helped Andrea be a success in Capital Representation [24:45]
How can Law school Improve the way it teaches the practice of law vs the theory of law [34:40]
The need for the Defender General [51:21]
How RICO is used and abused and how a Defender General could have stopped similar policies from being implemented [54:30]
How the Defender General would Operate [1:01:00]
Resources:
Office of Defender General Website
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
54: The Public Defense Union Pushing to Change Colorado Public Defense with The Defender's Union of Colorado
In this episode, I speak with three inspiring individuals: Michelle Sages, a Lead Deputy State Public Defender of the Denver Trial Office, Travis Weiner, a Deputy State Public Defender of the Greeley Regional Office, and James Hardy, a Lead Deputy Public Defender in the Appellate Division of the Colorado State Public Defender.
Together, they speak on The Defender’s Union of Colorado and why it’s essential to have a public service union. Then, they go into how they have been working with both state officials and the general public to gain support for their cause.
They’ll wipe away all misconceptions about public service unions and prove that despite the criticisms, a union is beneficial for everyone involved.
Even though Colorado is in the top 5 states with the strongest public defense system, there is still a long way to go. Public service employees are still drastically underpaid and overworked, while clients are not receiving fair access to representation.
Michelle, Travis, and James are actively advocating for a system that ensures public service employees can keep up with the requirements of their job while clients can get the help they desperately need. With their passion for transforming the system, Colorado public defense has a much brighter future.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Michelle, Travis, and James explain how they got into public defense. [7:06]
- Why the defense union was created. [12:36]
- Reasons public service and a union are not in conflict. [28:45]
- Biggest goals of the union. [36:38]
- Problems with the leadership in public defense. [37:34]
- The legal & structural issues that the union faces. [56:06]
- How the union avoids becoming public defender centered. [1:10:57]
- Policy work that needs to be done. [1:17:11]
- The future of Colorado public defense. [1:27:32]
- Why the union is necessary. [1:33:43]
Guests:
Michelle Sages, Lead Deputy State Public Defender, Denver Trial Office
Travis Weiner, Deputy State Public Defender, Greeley Regional Office
James Hardy, Lead Deputy Public Defender, Appellate Division, Colorado State Public Defender
Resources:
Polis, Democratic lawmakers and local governments are all squaring off over public bargaining rights
Colorado’s public defenders launch union drive for lawyers and support staff. But there’s a catch.
"Highly Overworked and Grossly Underpaid": Why Public Defenders Launched a Union
Memorable Quotes:
“If we can't do this work without all of us, we need to improve the conditions for all of us.” (13:16, Travis)
“I think a lot of people leave because they believe that the work is so important and they find themselves unable to do it in a satisfactory way within the system.” (18:31, Michelle)
“Our goal as a union is to provide the best client representation we possibly can and to ensure effective representation for all of our clients and where we feel like that our system is falling short is in retention and creating a sustainable career path for folks, which long term hurts our clients' representation.” (29:30, James)
“One of the problems with the revolving door system is oftentimes for supervisor positions, it's not who's the most qualified or the best fit, it's who's up next, Is that the best way to train the next generation of public defenders? Is that the best way to select someone that brand new public defenders are gonna look to and model after? I don't think so.” (37:52, James)
“Everybody knows it is a totally open secret that it is a completely unconstitutional, dysfunctional system and people are not getting the representation that they deserve and need.” (43:57, Travis)
“The system does not work if every gear in it is not functioning properly.” (1:06:26, Travis)
“Having a system that's not functioning well does not benefit victims of these crimes either.” (1:08:17, Michelle)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
53: What is Causing the Crisis in Oregon Public Defense w/Chris O'Connor
The Oregon Public Defender System is broken. Due to a shortage of attorneys willing to take on the cases, hundreds of people wait for months without ever having an attorney appointed to their case. During this wait, they are often required to return to court to mandate another hearing because attorneys are not available to take the case. With each passing day, evidence grows harder to find, the memories of potential witnesses fade away, and whatever trust the accused had in the legal system withers and dies.
To help Hunter understand how this crisis consumed Oregon Public Defense, he spoke with Chris O’Connor, a Public Defender at the Metropolitan Public Defender in Multnomah County Oregon. After 20 years as a Public Defender, Chris is the perfect guest to help understand the history and decisions leading up to the crisis.
As he reveals, report after report over the years have continuously showcased the many failings of the overly complex, contract based public defender system. Yet despite the issues being obvious, the legislature and the judiciary continued to allow the issue to fester. This episode is a must listen if you want to best understand the uphill battle the Public Defenders in Oregon are facing!
Guests:
Chris O’Connor, Public Defender, Metropolitan Public Defender Office, Multnomah County Oregon
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How did Chris start off as a PD [8:11]
Structure and History of Oregon Public Defense [10:21]
Findings and Impacts of the Sixth Amendment Center [14:30]
Why does the contract model still persist in Oregon? [20:48]
Can this system work? [25:15]
Impacts of Drug Decriminalization [28:45]
How this crisis has been framed by the media and the lack of accountability by the judiciary and the legislature [31:44]
Why do people have to come to court 12 times just to have a case dismissed [38:55]
The judicial cowardice problem [40:00]
The impacts of the attorney shortage [42:00]
The judicial coup that hit the PDSC [53:00]
What can be done [1:02:00]
Resources:
Multnomah County Public Defender
Vice Investigative Reporting on Public Defender Crisis
‘No sense of justice’: Hundreds cycling through Oregon courts without public defenders
Oregon Public Defense Law Suit
ABA Report on Oregon Public Defense
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
52: The Court Fines and Fees that Fund Alabama with Adam Danneman and Leah Nelson
What is the true impact of fines and fees?
In this episode, I speak with two inspiring individuals—Adam Danneman, the Chief Public Defender of Jefferson County, Alabama, and Leah Nelson, the Research Director of Alabama Appleseed. They bring with them two unique perspectives and a boatload of passion for public defense.
Alabama does not have a universal indigent defense system and there is no obligation for any county in the state to operate a specific type of public defender system. Together, Adam and Leah talk about the specific challenges that this setup creates and how they work within this system.
Overall, Adam and Leah give advice to people who don’t live in the south on how to move past their preconceived notions. After this episode, you’ll look at southerners in an entirely new way!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Adam and Leah introduce themselves and explain their role in public defense. [9:02]
- An overview of the structure of Alabama’s indigent defense system. [14:37]
- Witnesses and investigators. [20:15]
- Why there is a lack of treatment in prisons. [29:59]
- The top issues impacting public defense representation in Alabama. [32:45]
- Why a speedy trial isn’t a guaranteed right under the Constitution. [35:52]
- Issues with fines and fees in Alabama public defense. [38:38]
- Alabama’s indigency determination standard. [57:50]
Guests:
Adam Danneman, Chief Public Defender, Jefferson County, Alabama,
Leah Nelson, Research Director, Alabama Appleseed
Resources:
Jefferson County Public Defender
Memorable Quotes:
“Do not leave behind the south, do not leave behind Alabama because you think it is not worth helping.” (7:15, Hunter)
“Making sure that people have qualified counsel is a high priority for me and for Apple Seed, but it's not a high priority for our legislature.” (16:30, Leah)
“One fair negative stereotype about public defenders, not just in Alabama, but everywhere, is that we're overworked.” (33:08, Adam)
“Pretty much every crime in Alabama comes with some financial penalty on top of maybe jail or prison time.” (39:11, Leah)
“We really undermine public safety and we undermine the independent judiciary and independent prosecution system when we force prosecutors and the courts to generate revenue for the state.” (53:46, Leah)
“We spend more money in Alabama, probably everywhere to collect this debt than it actually brings in if we recovered all.” (1:05:10, Adam)
Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
51: The Texas Capital Punishment System is Designed to Kill w/Ray Keith
When people discuss the criminal legal system, you may often hear someone say, “the system is not broken. It is acting exactly was it was designed.” On today’s episode, Hunter and guest Ray Keith discuss the ways in which the legal system in Texas is designed to kill people.
As the head of the Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases in Texas, Ray is intimately familiar with the statutory language and process that directs the jury towards a death penalty over life. While this is a highly technical episode, it is important to dig down into the weeds to examine the insidious ways the legal system is operating exactly as it was intended.
Hopefully, this episode will also spark a curiosity in you to understand the complex legal technicalities in your own state may drive harsher punishments. While Texas is the focus of this episode, we know they are not alone in designing a system with the goal of producing the harshest possible outcomes for those being processed through it
Guests:
Ray Keith, Chief Public Defender, Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases, Texas
Key Topics and Takeaways:
What the RPDO does and how Ray got there [7:40]
Difficulties of being a Criminal Defense Attorney in Texas [13:20]
The Texas Capital Statute [15:36]
How a Capital Jury is Selected [20:00]
The Questions you Can't ask a Jury [27:00]
The Punishment Phase of a Capital Case [30:46]
Why Doesn't Texas Explain "Reasonable Doubt" to Jurors [32:30]
The Questions Jurors need to Answer to Give the Death Penalty [34:70]
The "Evidence" Used to Prove Future Threat [40:00]
Why Rehabilitation is disregarded in Texas Capital Cases [45:00]
The Second Question Jurors Consider [48:00]
How the State Proves Someone Should be Killed [50:00]
The Way Jury Instructions Lead to Death Sentences [58:00]
Why Is this So Hard to Fix and What Can be Done [1:03:00]
Resources:
Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases Website
Texas Indigent Defense Commission
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
50: The Fees Making People Pay for Their "Free" Attorney w/Marea Beeman
Today, Hunter sat down with Marea Beeman, Director of Research Initiatives for Defender Legal Services at the National Legal Aid and Defender Association (NLADA), to discuss their recent report, “At What Cost? Findings from an Examination into the Imposition of Public Defense System Fees.
If you ask the average person what the word “free” means, they will likely tell you it means whatever is considered “free” does not have any cost associated with it. So, when people hear, “If you cannot afford counsel, one will be appointed to you at no cost to yourself”, people would likely assume that this attorney is “free”. Anyone who is familiar with our legal system, however, will inform you that you will likely have to pay for your Public Defender. In fact, in many states, the first time you appear before a judge, that judge will make clear to you that your counsel will cost you.
From a top-down look at all 50 states, to deep dives into the Public Defender fees in Oklahoma, Iowa, and New Hampshire, Marea and Hunter discuss the various ways these fees trap people in never ending cycles of debt that can lead to future incarceration, loss of driving privileges, and work to perpetuate a broken, predatory legal system
Guests:
Marea Beeman, Director of Research Initiatives for Defender Legal Services at the National Legal Aid and Defender Association (NLADA),
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Marea got into this work [8:00]
What is the NLADA [9:30]
What do you mean my “free attorney” isn’t free [10:30]
Difference Between Fines and Fees [14:20]
Methodology of the Study [17:50]
The Issues with Indigency Determination [21:00]
Findings from Oklahoma [26:13]
Findings in Iowa [39:40]
Findings in New Hampshire [53:00]
Solutions to the Issue [57:00]
Resources:
NY Times Report on Alabama Fees and Fines
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
49: How did Arizona Become so Pro-Mass Incarceration and What Can be Done About it? w/Nate Wade and Katie Gipson-McLean
Today Hunter had the distinct pleasure of speaking with Nate Wade and Katie Gipson-McLean, two public defenders from the Arizona. Of all the episodes, this may be the one that makes you the most pissed off.
From the outset, Katie and Nate drop story after story that reveals the deeply regressive and reactionary structure sustaining the status quo of mass incarceration in Arizona. From the powerful money interests in the DOC, to the work of a single, motivated individual, Arizona can easily be described as one of the most pro carceral states in America. Constantly ranking at the top leader boards in state spending on incarceration, Arizona is this way by design.
Despite all of the issues laid out (and there are a lot of them), Hunter hopes you walk away with hope that change in a place like this is possible because of the dedication and determination of fighters like Nate and Katie!!
Guests:
Nate Wade, Public Defender, Pinal County, Arizona
Katie Gipson-McLean, Public Defender, Maricopa County, Arizona
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Nate and Katie got into Public Defense [8:06]
Inconsistencies from county to county in Arizona Public Defense and Criminal Justice [12:00]
Understanding the Politics of Arizona [21:29]
How a single person shapes Arizona criminal justice policies [32:33]
Can punishment have a deterrent effect? [36:45]
The corruption and power influencing Arizona reforms [39:10]
Why it is so difficult for defense attorneys to have their voices heard in Arizona [50:30]
Katie describes the broken plea bargaining in Maricopa County [57:00]
The impacts of the Victim’s Bill of Rights on public defense [1:03:34]
Hope for change in Arizona [1:14:00]
Resources:
Maricopa County Public Defender
Maricopa County Know Your Rights Podcast
Pinal County Public Defender Office
Arizona communities would 'collapse' without cheap prison labor, Corrections director says
The Invisible Hand of Steve Twist
Arizona Criminal Justice Commission Check out there board and the lack of defense counsel!!
Living United for Change in Arizona (LUCHA)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
48: The Recent Victories Igniting New Hope for Missouri Public Defense w/Mary Fox
Today, Hunter revisited Public Defense in the state of Missouri with a conversation with Mary Fox. Mary is the Director of the Missouri State Public Defender system, and this conversation picks up where Hunter’s conversation with ACLU attorney, Anthony Rothert left off.
Back in March, Hunter and Anthony discussed the history of Public Defense in Missouri and why the ACLU brought sued the state for its failure to provide counsel to all who could not afford it. While Hunter highly recommends checking out that episode, it stopped short of talking about the ways in which the Missouri Public Defender’s responded to the lawsuits. That’s where Mary steps in.
Since the second lawsuit was filed, Mary and the Public Defenders of Missouri have fought and won several key victories for more funding and more staffing. The doom and gloom of the previous episode is no where to be found, as Mary highlights the hope that now fills Missouri Public Defender System!
Guests:
Mary Fox, Director, Missouri State Public Defender
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Mary’s Background and journey to being the Director [7:13]
What Mary walked into when she took over in 2020 [13:47]
How Mary was able to win the fight [16:00]
Maintaing the Momentum in Missouri [22:00]
Recruiting new attorneys to come to Missouri [24:45]
How the Death Penalty works in Missouri [29:45]
Tackling the issues around Sexual Violent Offenders [37:59]
Indigency Determination in the State of Missouri [41:50]
Concerns around Municipal Courts in Missouri [49:10]
Fees paid to Contract Attorneys in Missouri [55:20]
Mary’s goals for public defense in the future [1:00:28]
Resources:
2021 Missouri Public Defender Annual Report
Missouri lawmakers recognized for legislation supporting court automation, public defenders
Messenger: New fellowship could ease public defender shortage in rural Missouri
Missouri public defenders set to hire 53 attorneys with extra funds in state budget
NO MORE WAITING LIST FOR MISSOURI PUBLIC DEFENDER SYSTEM SERVICES
With fresh state funding, understaffed public defender system looks to hire
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
47: In Small-Town Georgia, A Broken Taillight Can Lead to Spiraling Debt w/Nick Barber
Today, Hunter sat down with Nick Barber, author of a recent piece in the magazine In These Times called “In Small-Town Georgia, A Broken Taillight Can Lead to Spiraling Debt”. In his investigation and writing, Nick uncovered a corrupt private probation system that keeps people under control of the state for years in what appears to be an effort to generate revenue for Clayton, Georgia and for the company.
As is so often the case, Nick highlights the story of two poor people who lives were upended by this abusive system of debt, and it is clear throughout the work that at no point in time did the city ask, “Does this actually improve public safety?” From this episode, Hunter hopes you are able to walk away with a better understanding of the insidious ways in which we have forced small towns around the country have trapped countless Americans in a cycle of poverty through the crushing force of the criminal legal system.
Guests:
Nick Barber, Journalist and Former Investigator for the Southern Center for Human Rights
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Nick’s work with the Southern Center for Human Rights and finding this story [7:15]
Nick’s advice to those who want to get into Court Watching [11:00]
Background on Clayton, Georgia and Municipal Courts [13:50]
The Impacts of Private Probation on Ms. Lynn Davis [18:10]
Where is the Public Defender in Clayton, Georiga? [27:00]
The Impacts of Judge Sneed on revenue generated through fines and fees [31:38]
How the system trapped a 72 year old woman in years of debt [35:30]
How Georgia tried to address Private Probation [37:30]
How Clayton Georgia worked around the State’s remedy [40:00]
Private Probation and Predatory Municipal Finance [44:50]
The impacts of smaller federal spending on small town America [50:00]
Has the private probation system improved [54:30]
Will things change in the state? [58:00]
Resources:
Conditions in a New Mexico Jail
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
46: Fighting Gun Violence Without Using Mass Incarceration in Cook County, IL w/Sharone Mitchell
Today, Hunter spoke with Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender in Cook County about a few extremely timely topics: Guns and Bail Reform.
Born and raised in Chicago, Sharone understands the needs of his community and you can easily see how his experience helps to inform the way he pushes for and speaks about reform in Cook County. At the center of those pushes are tackling the issue of gun violence in the city without feeding America’s addiction to mass incarceration. Hunter really enjoyed the nuanced conversation about the ways in which gun violence and possession can be addressed without further harming poor Black and Hispanic communities in the city.
Lastly, Hunter and Sharone took a deep dive on the newest massive criminal justice reform legislation in Illinois, the Pre Trial Fairness Act, what it does, how it helps, and how people are already blaming it for everything before the Act even goes into effect.
Guests:
Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender, Cook County
Key Topics and Takeaways:
From Growing up in Chicago to Being the Chief Defender [5:30]
What People Misunderstand About Those in the Legal System [9:00]
Why Sharone Wanted to Be a Public Defender [11:00]
Differences and Similarities Between Cook County Public Defense and the Rest of the State [16:05]
The Nuance of the Gun Control Debate [24:00]
The Realities of Gun Restrictions in Cook County [29:00]
Why it is So Difficult to Fight the Status Quo on Gun Possession [38:00]
The Details of the Illinois Pre-Trial Fairness Act [46:50]
Resources:
BRIEF OF THE BLACK ATTORNEYS OF LEGAL AID, THE BRONX DEFENDERS, BROOKLYN DEFENDER SERVICES
6th Amendment Center Report on Illinois
Sharone’s Piece in the Nation on the impact of Gun Laws
Sharone on First Person podcast
Recent Op-ed pieceby two Cook County Assistant Public Defenders
Recent Block Club Chicago storyon some of the issues
Recent Injustice Watch storyon even more issues with gun possession charges
Here is a basic overview of the Pretrial Fairness Act. The state is ending money bond on Jan. 1, but there are other important reforms.
Follow the Cook County PD Office on Twitter
Follow Sharone on Twitter
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
45: Lawyers, Social Workers, Investigators, and the Whole Team that Makes the NAPD w/Lori James-Townes
Today, Hunter sat down with Lori James-Townes, Executive Director of the largest Public Defense Association in the country, the National Association of Public Defense. After conversations with Jeff Sherr, Heather Hall, and countless other members of NAPD, listeners will likely be familiar with the organization, but Hunter wanted to speak with Lori to highlight a specific aspect of the association and the Public Defense movement at large: it is about more than lawyers. Lori is not an attorney by trade, and her experience in social work reminds us how essential it is to build public defender teams with more than just attorneys in mind.
Without question, zealous advocacy in the court room is the primary focus of Public Defense, but that advocacy can only go so far with a team of strictly lawyers. Paralegals, social workers, investigators, administrative staff, and others, all are essential to maximizing the representation clients can expect to receive. Enjoy this conversation with Lori and Hunter as they explore how to continue to expand the NAPD to cities and states around the country!
Guests:
Lori James-Townes, Executive Director of the National Association of Public Defense
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Lori’s Journey to Become the Executive Director [5:58]
What We can Learn from the Brittney Griner Case [17:10]
Why Lori Wanted to be the Executive Director Role [22:30]
Pushing For Policy Reform at the National Level [32:00]
Bridging Gap in the Generational Differences in Public Defenders [36:50]
How to Lift up the Voice of those Impacted by Mass Incarceration [42:51]
Improving Public Defender Media Relations [50:08]
Improving Outreach in Law School and Improving Law School’s Curriculum [1:02:08]
Resources:
National Association of Public Defense
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
44: Community Outreach and Staffing Shortages in Miami Public Defense w/Carlos Martinez
Today, Hunter sat down with Carlos Martinez, the Chief Defender in the Miami Public Defender Office. With more than 30 years of experience as a Public Defender in Miami, Carlos Martinez has seen a little bit of everything in the office, but his experience extends past the court room. As a native son of Miami, Carlos relies on his personal experiences to help shape his offices outreach into the community. In speaking with Carlos I was struck by the thoughtful manner in which he approaches his responsibilities as an elected official and the importance of being an office that is constantly reaching out into the community.
In this discussion, you’ll hear Carlos talk about his early influences that drove him towards public defense, the challenges of staffing and funding shortages that his office currently faces, and much much more!
Guests:
Carlos Martinez, Chief Public Defender, 11th Judicial Circuit of Florida
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Carlos Got to be the Chief Public Defender [6:22]
Inspiring the Hispanic Community Through Action and Outreach [17:10]
Successes in Community Outreach [23:10]
The Impacts of Being an Elected Official [28:30]
Manning and Funding Shortages [40:47]
Why the Judiciary is so Reluctant for Change [49:30]
Why is There a Shortage of Prosecutors in Miami [55:00]
Sustaining the Victories [58:00]
Resources:
Law Offices of the Miami Public Defender
Consequences of Arrest in Miami
Record Sealing and Expungement
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
43: The Problem with Plea Deals with Professor Carissa Byrne Hessick
If you believed the many legal dramas in TV reflected actual court proceedings, you would be under the impression that our legal system is driven by the battle of wits between two lawyers at trial. If, however, you examine how our legal system operates, you would see that long ago our system became one where trials are rare. Instead, it is the plea bargain sitting at the bedrock of our legal system, but how did this happen? How did our country go from outright rejecting plea bargains so that a jury trial may happen to a country that actively punishes those who seek out a trial?
All that and more is at the forefront of this discussion between Hunter and Professor Carissa Byrne Hessick. Our guest is a law professor at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill and author of the book Punishment Without Trial: Why Plea Bargaining is bad Deal. As the title suggests and as many of my guests know, plea bargaining is likely not the best for the accused, for the alleged victims, or for society at large, but what is lost when we allow justice to be negotiated behind closed doors? Tune in to this episode to find out!
Guests:
Carissa Byrne Hessick, Anne Shea Ransdell and William Garland "Buck" Ransdell, Jr. Distinguished Professor of Law, University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Why Carissa Wanted to Write this Book [6:00]
Carissa’s viewpoints on the legal system prior to writing [8:00]
How did Plea Bargaining become so prevalent? [13:37]
How lawyers reacted to the rise of Plea Bargaining [17:00]
Santabello v New York and SCOTUS’ endorsement of Plea Bargaining [20:00]
The Trial Penalty [22:00]
The Role of The Chief Justice in Court Admin [25:00]
Picking Apart Arguments for Plea Deals [28:00]
How Plea Deals can Hide the Truth [31:00]
Do Prosecutors have too much power and too many responsibilities? [35:00]
The Stories of Scott Hechinger as a Brooklyn Defender [39:00]
How Arizona circumvents Brady Requirements [45:00]
The Discretionary Nature of our Legal System via Jury Trials [51:00]
“Why Would you Plea Guilty to Something you Didn’t Do? [57:00]
How Could Law School do Better? [1:12:00]
What to do about Plea Bargaining [1:20:00]
Resources:
Purchase Punishment Without Trial!!
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
42: The Essential Role of Social Work and Mitigation Specialists in Public Defense with Justin Heim
Justin Heim - Staff Development Program Specialist (Training Division), Wisconsin State Public Defender - joins this episode to breaks down what a social worker really is and helps us define their role in the legal system.
Trauma is something that is not only affecting the community but the agents working to help as well. Justin believes a renaissance is beginning as our culture accepts that emotional intelligence is an integral part to our functionality, both in and out of the system. Without pausing to process, we can easily endanger our community by not coming into these high risk situations with the compassion they deserve. I hope you leave today with a new perspective of our culture's craving for punishment.
Key Takeaways:
- What is a Social Worker? [8:20]
- A new approach: Shifting towards emotional intelligence [12:45]
- The overlooked reality that experiencing trauma is inevitable for social workers [13:25]
- The traumatic imprint of a situation will manifest [15:30]
- Crisis response teams: assessing if someone is a danger to themselves [19:00]
- Retraining for moments of crisis: Teaming with Police to de-escalate situations [22:30]
- Making difficult decisions on behalf of people who need help in moments of crisis [25:00]
- When does my right to choose something start to impede on your right to safety? [29:00]
- Social workers are necessary to help attorney’s understand the client's story [37:00]
- Community correction agents and pre investigations for sentencing [46:22]
- Compassion fatigue and moral injury in the public defenders [48:45]
- The work is never ending so you do have take the time to care for yourself [58:00]
- Social workers will intuitively get involved in the transformative justice movement [62:10]
- Helping victims understand that punishment is not always useful [64:30]
- Punishment is not always the solution [68:00]
Resources:
Email: HeimJ@opd.wi.gov
Memorable Quotes:
“It has to change because…it’s not transactional law, criminal defense is not transactional law, you are working with human beings, human beings who have experienced trauma. You will experience trauma, right? Your colleagues are traumatized. This work takes a lot out of people and we need to acknowledge that.”[13:25]
“If we went with law enforcement, they would often let us lead, right, as far as building that rapport and then if it came to that point of like it seems like this isn’t safe…almost every single time it was not any confrontation necessary. It might have been against the person’s will, they did not want to come but I feel like if the officers are skilled enough and working together with community mental health folks that is really the best situation.” [20:37]
“Sometimes when someone is saying “‘I don’t want to be hospitalized, I don’t want to take my medication” previously sometimes they told you “when I say this, please give me my medication, please hospitalize me” right so, it’s not as easy as like, the best interest verses what their expressed interest was because sometimes those things get confused depending on the situation.” [25:27]
“We are educated to find punishment pleasurable, if we can see another and judge them as wrong, If we have some rules and we know this is right and this is wrong therefor I get to say you’re wrong and you should be punished it increases my sense of rightness.” [67:40]
41: Turning Public Defender Priorities into Public Policy Victories with Brad Haywood and Bryan Kennedy
There are only so many victories that can happen for Public Defense in a court room. Of course, we should the goal should be zealous advocacy and the best outcome for each client, but a single victory in a single case is not enough to stem the tide of Mass Incarceration. Real victories for the accused come at the policy level, and that is what this week’s conversation is all about. Joining Hunter this week is Brad Haywood and Bryan Kennedy, two public defenders in Virginia and members of the non-partisan policy advocacy group, Justice Forward Virginia!
Throughout the conversation, both Brad and Bryan highlight the importance of brining the public defender voice to the policy table. Without that voice, policy makers are often directed by the only criminal justice stakeholders in the room: Police and Prosecutors. Organizations like Justice Forward, while difficult to start and sustain, are an essential factor for those looking to zealously fight for public defense reform at the level where small changes make the most impact.
Guests:
Brad Haywood, Chief Public Defender, Arlington VA
Bryan Kennedy, Assistant Public Defender, Fairfax VA
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Introduction to Brad, Bryan, and Justice Forward [6:30]
How to fill the knowledge gap between the theory of law and the practice of law [12:45]
The importance of having a public defender at the policy table [15:40]
Policy Victories for Justice Forward [21:10]
Sustaining Victories and Understanding the Political Landscape of Virginia [28:19]
Lies perpetuated by the media about Criminal Justice Reform [37:00]
Impacts of Virginia Laws on Racial Minorites [42:50]
How to Best Message Progressive Criminal Justice Policies [49:50]
Advice for those seeking Policy Reform [57:50]
Resources:
Example of Media Bias Around Shooting in Arlington
Follow them on twitter:
Brad Haywood @BradleyRHaywood
Bryan Kennedy @kennedybtd
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
40: How Moral Injury, Stress, and Trauma Impact Public Defense with Jenny Andrews
Jenny Andrews is the Director of Training for California’s Indigent Defense Improvement Division. She’s here today to teach you what public defense is truly like from the defender’s side.
Public defenders are often trapped between a rock and a hard place because they want to provide equal representation access, yet are expected to work too many hours for not enough pay. Because of this, “martyr complex” is prevalent in this field.
You’ll learn that public defense is an area of service, but that this often comes at the expense of the defender’s mental health. Jenny will walk you through how she’s helping implement self-care practices into nation wide and why self-care is vital to providing zealous representation!
Throughout this episode, remember that ultiamtely, it is the client who sufferes when the public defender suffers in silence
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Jenny’s background and how she got started in public defense. [7:50]
- Why Jenny burnt out and left the industry. [14:18]
- Moral injury. [21:58]
- Self-care in public defense. [26:32]
- Secondary trauma. [33:36]
- How Jenny has been building a culture of self-care. [42:50]
- How individual offices are promoting self-care. [48:28]
- The line between service and self-care. [53:14]
Guest:
Jenny Andrews, Director of Training, Indigent Defense Improvement Division, Office of the State Public Defender, California
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
“It is the client who suffers the most when public defenders are run ragged and into the ground.” (4:33, Hunter)
“As a public defender, most of us come into this work because we see the way that the system treats the most vulnerable people, and we wanna provide a high level of representation to them. And then we encounter all of these obstacles and things that block us and prevent us from being able to do that. And it's really, really taxing and demoralizing.” (18:14, Jenny)
“Having great self-care tools is like knowing how to change a tire, but you drive every day on a road that is covered in potholes. So you are constantly needing to change your tires.” (31:48, Hunter)
“If you are not letting your people take care of yourself, the mission will fall apart. They will not perform.” (53:39, Hunter)
“I think that if we are taking care of ourselves and each other, we are better equipped to take care of the people that we represent.” (58:45, Jenny)
“We have to break out of this idea that caging people fixes social problems.” (1:02:02, Jenny)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
39: The Power of Public Advocacy in Alameda County Public Defense with Brendon Woods
This Week, Hunter spoke with the awesome and powerful, Brendon Woods. As Chief Public Defender in Alameda County, Brendon is one of the loudest and strongest advocates for criminal justice reform in the entire country.
On this episode, Brendon and Hunter discuss how Brendon was able to cultivate the culture both in and out of his office that enabled wide sweeping success at crafting meaningful reforms. From his work in the state house to his work in the Oakland community, Brendon has seen success after success because of his ability to show the local community the essential role that Public Defense places in community health. From his voter registration program to his high school, his team has helped to demonstrate for all the extent to what Public Defense could be.
Brendon’s vision and drive to implement a truly holistic model of public defense is one that all public defenders should strive to meet.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Brendon’s path to becoming a Chief Defender [11:12]
Developing a Positive Reputation in Alameda County [13:44]
VOICE and LYRIC Programs [15:15]
Immigration Representation Work [21:00]
How to Keep Getting Resources to Grow [25:00]
Public Defender Funding Disparities [27:00]
Battle with The Alameda DA’s [31:30]
The Recall of Chesa Boudin and the Role of DAs [37:50]
Policy Victories in the State [46:10]
Pushback To Policy Reform [51:50]
Discussion on California Public Defense [57:00]
Guests:
Brendon Woods, Chief Public Defender, Alameda County, California
Resources:
Alameda Public Defender Office
Establishing Immigration Representation
SB310 – which allows people with felony convictions to serve on juries. Brendon published an op-ed about this bill.
AB3070 – which made it more difficult for racist prosecutors to kick black people off juries. He also wrote an op-ed on this.
Battles with the DA
-
- Last year, one of our lawyers moved to recuse the entire DA’s office from a murder case because of extensive misconduct in other cases.It was a crazy, innovative motion.
- The DA’s office retaliated against us by refusing to engage in any informal plea discussions.
- Within days, the DA’s office stops its illegal retaliation.
- The recusal motion was denied and the client was acquitted at trial.
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
38: Can the Michigan Model Pave the Way for Public Defense? with Kristen Staley
38: Michigan Public Defense w/ Kristen Staley
Ready for a refreshing dose of positivity?
In this episode, Hunter speaks with Kristen Staley, the Executive Director of the Michigan Indigent Defense.
Kristen maps out the complexities of a committee system, sharing the unique challenges and benefits that having individual offices hold. It turns out that the quality of services varies from county to county.
She’ll also explain how she is working in the legislature to transform the future of Michigan public defense. Kristen has many goals for the state that she lays out in this episode.
Overall, Kristen conveys an attitude of hope and excitement for the future. She is certain that Michigan indigent defense will change for the better.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Kristen’s background and how she got into Michigan public defense. [10:53]
- Handling cases of individuals 18-25. [15:26]
- The Michigan Model of public defense. [24:08]
- Michigan’s indigency standards. [36:17]
- The commission and state’s response to the Sixth Amendment Center reports. [39:39]
- How Kristen works with the legislature. [44:35]
- The difference between being an advocate and a policy maker. [48:39]
- Kristen’s goals for Michigan indigent defense. [59:43]
Guest:
Kristen Staley, Executive Director Michigan Indigent Defense Commission
Resources:
Michigan Indigent Defense Commission
Race to the Bottom NLADA Report
Prof Eve Primus Observations on Michigan Court Rooms
Memorable Quotes:
“Change can happen and will happen if you keep on pushing.” (10:23, Hunter)
“18 is not a magic number, that there is science and there is research and youth are not adults.” (17:07, Kristen)
“The criminal justice system, just like any other type of system, is run by humans. Right? And we all have these biases, no matter what it is, but we have to be able to understand and recognize them.” (18:21, Kristen)
“I think that having such a large group of stakeholders beyond the commission helps ensure that we're actually hearing all the voices and makes sure that we're not forgetting things.” (35:15, Kristen)
“I think there's a lot of very good activists who push these types of things forward, but not every great activist is also a great policy person. I think that's very different. And not every great policy person is a great activist.” (51:47, Hunter)
“Public defenders care about this work. At the end of the day they are advocates.” (1:04:35, Kristen)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
37: How to Train the Next Generation of Public Defense Leaders with Jeff Sherr and Heather Hall
This week, Hunter spoke with Jeff Sherr and Heather Hall of the National Association of Public Defense to discuss the importance of training the next generation of Public Defense Leaders.
Over their careers, Jeff and Heather have seen first hand the transformation in the types of people drawn to Public Defense. This evolution from warriors in the court room to advocates in the policy realm has only be possible thanks to the development of new training methods that focus on the communication skills of Public Defender leaders, but this training must extend to more than just Public Defenders.
As an organization that caters to all members of a Public Defense team, the NAPD is essential to ensuring every member of an office is equipped with the tools to provide holistic representation to every client!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Crafting Training Programs/Development of Training Goals [12:45]
Challenges and Opportunities in Bringing together different jobs in Public Defense [16:05]
Brining Different Types of Public Defenders Together [20:21]
Different Public Defender Motivations [24:00]
Different Training for Different Kinds of Advocacy [33:50]
The Challenges of Leadership [42:00]
Creating Communication Models that Work in Different Places [44:08]
How do You Convince a Community Trust Public Defense Again [50:40]
Guests:
Jeff Sherr, Director of Training, National Association of Public Defense
Heather Hall, Engagement Director, National Association of Public Defense
Resources:
National Association of Public Defense
https://www.publicdefenders.us/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
36: Kentucky PD and The National Association of Public Defense with Ernie Lewis
Kentucky is known to have a strong and well-structured public defender system, but it is held back by poor funding and an unresponsive legislative body.
This week, Hunter speaks with Ernie Lewis, the former Public Advocate of Kentucky and former Executive Director of the National Association for Public Defense (NAPD).
They discuss Ernie’s work in public defense reform and the best ways to get needed changes. Ernie attempts to answer the ultimate question—what does it take to transform the system so it’s responsive to the needs of those in it?
Instrumental in the formation of the NAPD, he’ll explain how it began and why the work of this organization is so important. He’ll also explore how to balance the needs of public defenders with the needs of the individuals going through the system.
Ernie brings to the show a refreshing, optimistic look at the public defense system and its future.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Ernie’s background in public defense and how he got started. [4:50]
- Why Ernie wanted to work in poverty law. [8:49]
- Ernie’s three goals as public advocate. [15:23]
- Fines and fees. [17:38]
- Eligibility. [21:08]
- Ernie’s work at the NAPD. [37:32]
- Caseloads. [48:40]
- Ethics in the legal profession. [52:14]
Guest:
Ernie Lewis, Former Public Advocate of Kentucky, Former Executive Director of the NAPD
Resources:
Final Report of the Blue Ribbon Group
Public Advocacy Commission Justice Jeopardized Final Report
Department of Public Advocacy FY19 Annual Report
Indigency Determination Statute
Memorable Quotes:
“I then wanted to go to law school and represent poor people to give justice to poor people.” (10:35, Ernie)
“Since 1998, we were able to reduce reliance upon fines and fees considerably. So that by the time I left, our budget was about 40 million and only about 3 million of that 40 million came from fines and fees.” (17:45, Ernie)
“This is a state obligation to provide enough resources so that each person charged with a crime who is eligible for a public defender, gets a well-trained, qualified attorney with support staff.” (20:49, Ernie)
“Probably the biggest problem in indigent defense is the vast gap between representation for felonies and representation for misdemeanors, especially in lower level courts.” (28:11, Hunter)
“Indigent defense has always been one of the last priorities of government.” (43:58, Ernie)
“My generation of public defenders has participated in mass incarceration. We have witnessed just since 1970, the destruction of people, families, neighborhoods, and we've become now the place with the highest percentages of incarceration in the world.” (55:38, Ernie)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
35: Public Service Loan Forgiveness and Student Debt with Jane Fox and Kyle Morris
This week, Hunter sat down with Jane Fox and Kyle Morris to discuss one of the pressing issues facing millions of Americans: Student Loans.
As of today, there is roughly $1.75 trillion in student loans that remain outstanding. For many, these debts will carry with them until they hit retirement age. This is a debt that cannot be discharged via bankruptcy and the high interest rates make it extremely difficult for those in low paying public service jobs to ever pay off the principle. That is where Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) comes into play.
While it is far from a perfect program, PSLF has helped thousands of people serving the public. After 10 years of service and 10 years of payments, certain loans can be completely forgiven. Yet, the program, as many government programs are, is extremely cumbersome to navigate. Recognizing these difficulties and wanting to help, Jane and Kyle offer their expertise to guide people through the PSLF process to lift the burden of debt off of their shoulders!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How much Debt Kyle and Jane Had [15:00]
History of PSLF [24:00]
The Problems with Loan Servicers [28:00]
Specific Requirements for PSLF [32:00]
Hurdles to PSLF [34:110]
Future of PSLF and the Student Loan Industry [41:00]
PSLF Is For More than Just Attorneys [47:38]
The Politics of Student Loan Forgiveness [59:00]
Guests:
Jane Fox, Staff Attorney, New York Legal Aid Society
Kyle Morris, Public Defender, Nashville Public Defender Office
Memorable Quotes:
“Jane and I often joke that talking to servicers is like our clients talking to the Police. It’s usually not a good idea without an attorney present” – Kyle [28:45]
Resources:
Contact Kyle: kylemmorris@jisnashville.gov
Contact Jane: Jfox@legal-aid.org
For Help with PSLF Call DOE Ombudsman
877-557-2575
Public Service Loan Forgiveness
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
www.publicdefenseless.com
34: The History of Public Defense with Sara Mayuex
Sara Mayeux is a law professor at Vanderbilt University and the author of the book Free Justice, A History of the Public Defender in 20th Century America.
Sara discusses the progressive era, the 1950s and the development of public defense of modern America, and the supreme court's role throughout it all.
The development of public defense has largely been dictated by the growth of the nation through urbanization, industrialization, and economic inequality. Sara and Hunter talk through how culture impacted the development of law as it stands today. This episode lays a foundational understanding of how our public defense came to be what it is today. A must-listen!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- The 3 topics of Sara’s book: Free Justice [3:02]
- How quickly political concepts can switch their meaning and understanding based on the cultural context that people are raised in. [4:04]
- Background and experience of Sara Mayeux [6:10]
- The era of mass incarceration [7:03]
- What the progressive era looked like, and how this culture impacted the criminal courts and criminal system. [12:35]
- Defense law perspective versus the state [22:51]
- The disparity between east coast and west coast public defenders in the 1950s. [31:20]
- The impact of the cold war on public defense. [37:40]
- The OJ Trial and people getting off due to technicalities in the legal system. [49:58]
- The American Bar Association’s approach [52:00]
Guest:
Sara Mayuex, Professor of Law and History, Vanderbilt University
Memorable Quotes:
“There's this broader cultural sense in which we think of American law as adversarial. Meaning that, especially in a criminal case, the defendant is up against the state and that's his adversary or enemy. And so of course, the defense lawyer and the prosecutor are going to see themselves as doing battle. And they're not going to see themselves as having any kind of shared goal or shared mission.” - Sara Mayeux
“The dominant standard understanding of what happens with respect to public policy debates during the Cold War is that anything that looks even remotely too much like communism or socialism is basically written out of the realm of possibility for American policymakers.” - Sara Mayeux
Get Sara Mayeux’s Book:
Free Justice: A History of the Public Defender in 20th Century America
https://uncpress.org/book/9781469661650/free-justice/
https://law.vanderbilt.edu/bio/sara-mayeux
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
33: How Could Low Attorney Pay Cripple Massachusetts Public Defense w/Anthony Benedetti
The Massachusetts public defense system presents arguably the best example of how contract public defense could work, largely in part to today’s guest—Anthony Benedetti, Chief Public Defender of Massachusetts.
Their system is made up of approximately 80% contract attorneys, and in this episode, Anthony walks us through how he helps to oversee these attorneys and ensures a quality level of representation for all.
He’ll also break down the complicated funding of the system, and why $60 per hour just doesn’t cut it.
Anthony is working hard to create a future where more layers will want to go into public defense and is optimistic that the Massachusetts indigent defense system will continue to improve!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Who Anthony is and what he does. [9:29]
- What Massachusetts public defense looks like and how it took its form. [13:25]
- Legislation advocacy done by Anthony’s office. [18:24]
- Training and performance standards for Massachusetts contract attorneys. [20:17]
- Why the Massachusetts pay rates aren’t enough. [31:00]
- Justifying the high attorney standards with the lack of pay. [41:37]
- How attorney shortages have affected Massachusetts. [49:37]
- Defining what a crime is. [1:05:50]
Guest:
Anthony Benedetti, Chief Counsel, Committee for Public Counsel Services
Resources:
Mass Bar Report on Attorney Pay
Memorable Quotes:
“It's one thing in theory to talk about public defender pay and how much people make and, and all these things. But at the end of the day, it's the working-class Americans who were represented by these people who pay the price.” (6:08, Hunter)
“I like to tell people that there are just so many injustices on a daily basis, that it is pretty easy to get re-pissed off and realize that you have to keep up the fight each and every day on behalf of our clients.” (12:40, Hunter)
“I think it's, there are a whole range of reasons why people choose to do this work, but at the end of the day, when they choose to do this work, they have to do it in a certain way.” (23:05, Anthony)
“It is really hard for us to get people out of law school who want to do this full-time or close to full-time.” (42:56, Anthony)
“The longer that you go without counsel, the more you are disadvantaged being able to present a defense.” (51:32, Anthony)
“I'm pretty confident that things are going to get better in Massachusetts.” (1:08:35, Anthony)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
32: Why Nevada Public Defense Failed and the Plan to Build it Back w/Franny Forsman
Franny Forsman has been working in Nevada indigent defense for several decades, and today she brings her impressive breadth of experience to the show!
Franny is a former Post Conviction Indigent Defense Counsel in Nevada who has worked long and hard to improve the system.
Today, she speaks with us about how the ACLU lawsuit has brought drastic changes to the state of Nevada and why there are still so many weaknesses.
She’ll explain how the Nevada public defense system handles the massive amount of rural coverage and share her dream for the future of the state.
Franny will reassure you that all together, Nevada’s public defense system is heading in the right direction!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- A history lesson on Nevada public defense. [2:36]
- Franny’s background and role in Nevada public defense. [12:49]
- What Franny took away from her time as a social worker. [14:33]
- The major pushback from the legislature around funding. [20:18]
- Pleading guilty. [35:16]
- What has changed since the ACLU lawsuit. [40:17]
- Why the new system will be different. [58:32]
- How rural counties are handled. [59:17]
Guest:
Franny Forsman, Former Post Conviction Indigent Defense Counsel in Nevada
Resources:
State of Nevada v. Second Judicial District Court. 453 P2d 421. at 424 (Nevada 1969)
Memorable Quotes:
“It's David Carroll who said in his interview, a radical way to fix the system is to simply look at how many people are not actually getting attorneys. Look at how many cases are actually being carried. Look at how little work is being done in these cases.” (6:51, Hunter)
“There was never a consequence to the state to underfund the system.” (20:41, Franny)
“It's the state's responsibility to make sure that this gets right. It's the enforcement of all of the laws, including the sixth amendment that the state is responsible for.” (34:07, Franny)
“Wherever you live, find the nearest courtroom. Odds are if you walked in there and you see a public defender working and you asked them how many cases do you take a year, more likely than not, they are going to have absolutely no idea.” (53:56, Hunter)
“My feeling is that we will always have to have contract lawyers because of conflicts of interest.” (1:01:55, Franny)
Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
31: The Wrongful Conviction of Cyrus Wilson with Cyrus Wilson and Dawn Deaner
On the night of September 15, 1992, in the Nashville Tennessee area, teenager Christopher Luckett was shot and killed.
Two days later, another teenager Cyrus Wilson was arrested for the crime. Even though there was only circumstantial evidence and many witnesses later admitted they were coerced into lying, Cyrus was found guilty and spent over 20 years in prison.
Today, he is 48 years old and still fighting for his innocence while on parole.
In this episode, Cyrus tells his story and how he is working to get the verdict overturned. Dawn Deaner, Former Public Defender in Nashville and Executive Director of the Choosing Justice Initiative joins him to add her expert perspective.
The fact is, thousands of innocent people are sitting in jail right now, powerless and without the resources they need.
The question is, how can we get the system to listen and take action?
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- A quick summary of the case. [0:18]
- Dawn talks about her public defense background. [16:58]
- Why Cyrus originally waived his right to an attorney and what his later attorney interactions looked like. [26:16]
- The appeals process. [45:20]
- Where accountability should be put in place. [52:13]
- Reasons attorneys and judges become complacent. [1:06:16]
- Lawyers and judges need to understand the power they have. [1:17:29]
- Cyrus’s life on parole. [1:22:45]
- How Cyrus is still trying to prove his innocence. [1:29:34]
- Two things Cyrus wants people to understand. [1:36:40]
Guests:
Cyrus Wilson
Dawn Deaner, Former Public Defender in Nashville, Founder and Executive Director of the Choosing Justice Initiative
Resources:
Cyrus Wilson Granted Parole, Set to Be Released
Memorable Quotes:
“Once the police hone in on their guy, it can be difficult to get them off that gut intuition that police are very often instructed to follow.” (1:53, Hunter)
“If we continue to believe that the only way victims can be made whole is by somebody going to jail, then we are gonna continue to end up in situations like this, where, who cares who goes to jail as long as somebody did.” (12:48, Hunter)
“I don't necessarily know that there were more problems in public defense 30 years ago than there are today. I think that things have been bad and they've been bad a very long time.” (31:26, Dawn)
“You can't give someone like 50 cases and understand that and think that they're realistically going to investigate cases appropriately.” (51:32, Cyrus)
“We need to recognize that lawyers and judges in positions of power perpetuate this system that oppresses people.” (53:09, Dawn)
“I've never committed a crime and I could be continually detained and incarcerated for something that I did not do that I'm still held accountable for right now in this moment. No matter what kind of life I create, it could be taken away at the drop of a hat simply because this situation has never been totally corrected.” (1:24:02, Cyrus)
“Innocent people and people who are not necessarily innocent should be treated justly and fairly without bias.” (1:37:29, Cyrus)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
30: How Tennessee Fails to Protect Children Accused of Crimes w/Mark Stephens
In this episode, I speak with Mark Stephens, the former chief public defender of Knoxville Tennessee.
Tennessee public defense has been stuck in neutral, if not reverse for a long time. In fact, almost everything was established in the 90’s and hasn’t changed much since.
Rutherford county incarcerated approximately 48% of children referred to juvenile court in 2014, and the statewide average for juvenile incarceration is 5%. Today, we talk about two alarming reports that have been released discussing the representation of juvenile offenders in the state.
In Tennessee, public defenders are elected to 4 and 8-year terms. Mark also highlights how this unique system affects the levels of representation and the bottom line.
Overall, Mark leaves us with his ideas for a better system and the hope that the Tennessee public defense system will change for good.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Mark’s position in Tennessee public defense and how he got there. [6:28]
- Elected public defenders. [10:48]
- Public defender workloads and caseloads. [15:16]
- One of the biggest issues facing Tennessee public defense today. [20:10]
- Community outreach. [26:29]
- Holistic representation and public defense. [37:19]
- The average people going through the Tennessee indigent system. [41:06]
- Resources at a county level. [46:03]
Guest:
Mark Stephens, Former Chief Defender of Knoxville Public Defense
Resources:
Shelby County Juvenile System Report
Memorable Quotes:
“Children, for the most part, we have an opportunity to rehabilitate them.” (3:23, Hunter)
“Public defenders are paid the same that assistant district attorneys and district attorneys are paid, which is the way I think it ought to be.” (14:52, Mark)
“People generally don't care about the adults that are in the criminal justice system, because we've got this idea that they're all bad people and that they're all guilty.” (25:59, Mark)
“This state of crisis or chaos that a criminal charge brings in a person's life is also an opportunity for that person and that public defender to bring about change.” (38:12, Mark)
“I think the legislature has been shortsighted in terms of fully understanding the potential within the public defender office.” (47:32, Mark)
“People would disagree with me, but I think every aspect of the system, as I know it ought to be scrapped and redesigned.” (58:30, Mark)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
29: The Role a Judge can Play in Reforming Public Defense w/Tom Boyd
Today, you’ll hear about public defense from the judge’s point of view. Tom Boyd is a former Michigan District Court Judge who currently works in the court administration office.
At one point one of the weakest systems in the United States, his work to improve the indigent system has driven forward the future of Michigan public defense and has left a positive precedent for other states.
The 6th amendment is the ultimate protection against government power that is designed to keep people safe from a government acting out of control.
Many people believe that judges should be held accountable for protecting the constitution, so bettering the public defense system should be more of a priority.
Sharing his unique perspective, your mindset around public defense will be challenged and you’ll see that a lot more than you think goes into fair representation for all.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Tom’s background and his role in the Michigan indigent system. [6:01]
- A judge’s function in the Michigan courtroom. [10:21]
- Some history on the Michigan indigent defense system. [16:01]
- What gets in the way of constitutionally adequate representation. [21:21]
- Prosecutors and public defense. [28:03]
- Ending the plea deal epidemic. [34:57]
- Tom’s experience being on both sides of the bench. [45:42]
- Where Tom wants Michigan public defense to go. [49:39]
- Holding prosecutors accountable. [54:00]
Guests:
Tom Boyd, Former Michigan District Court Judge, Michigan State Court Administrator
Resources:
Michigan Indigent Defense Commission
NLADA Report “Race to the Bottom”
Memorable Quotes:
“I want to talk to more than just public defenders. I want to talk to all range of people who are involved in the criminal justice system, because part of reform is going to require that all of the people in the system work together.” (2:07, Hunter)
“When you're the judge at the end of the conversation you win.” (13:35, Tom)
“If we can be crass about it, the judiciary is a service industry.” (22:05, Tom)
“I think that the Michigan indigent defense commission, which is still in its infancy, you know, six years, seven years, something like that. Has established itself as reliable and dedicated to advancement and done a good enough job that there are very few judges who fought the relinquishment of control.” (25:56, Tom)
“There are bad actors in the legal system who take advantage of individuals and they should be found, rooted out, and gotten out of the system.” (48:29, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
28: Public Defense Commissions with David Kaplan and Sara Hildebrand
Today, I speak with David Kaplan and Sara Hildebrand, two former Colorado public defenders and current members of the Aurora Public Defender Commission.
The three of us dive deep into Public Defense Commissions, how they function, and the important work they do in advocating for public defenders.
The commission side of public defense offers a unique insight into how policy is made and the types of negotiations that need to be made. The fact is, there’s more that goes into it than you might think!
If you are a public defender who wants to start a commission or someone who’s not an attorney and wants to get involved, this is the perfect episode for you!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Sara and David’s background. [5:27]
- Sara’s challenges of being in a remote area. [11:01]
- The progression of David’s career. [14:16]
- Sara and David’s work in public policy. [20:10]
- How the commission works with policymakers. [29:44]
- Why commissions are important. [33:10]
- Building institutional support. [37:38]
- Staying on the peoples’ side. [50:31]
Guests:
David Kaplan, Former Colorado State Public Defender and Aurora Public Defender Commission Member
Sara Hildebrand former Public Defender in Durango/Arpahoe County and Aurora Public Defender Commission Member
Resources:
Aurora Public Defender Commission
Memorable Quotes:
“You don't have to be a lawyer to make these changes, to be passionate about reform and taking efforts to change your community. That's a key goal. That's a key theme of this show is that you do not have to be an attorney to understand this and to make changes.” (2:27, Hunter)
“I think those of us who ended up being public defenders never lose the spirit of being a public defender.” (9:55, David)
“When you do policy work, you have to have a broader understanding. There has to be, I believe a greater amount of compromise.” (24:32, David)
“Our obligation as defenders, whether as a state defender or a municipal defender or a federal defender, is to zealously advocate for our clients. And like David was saying, that means that our clients should feel like they have the best lawyer in the courtroom.” (28:21, Sara)
“We represent the people and the community, right? And so in a democratic environment, that should mean something.” (40:01, Sara)
“I think a key part of our role is to humanize people that are accused in a system that's just expert at dehumanizing people.” (56:27, Sara)
27: Why is the Actual Innocence of a Person not Enough to Stop his Execution? with Sylvia Lett and Andrew Sowards
In 1994, Barry Jones was arrested for the rape and murder of his girlfriend's four-year-old daughter. Even though his innocence is obvious to all who would look, he sits on Arizona's death row, waiting to be executed for a crime he did not commit.
Sylvia Lett and Andrew Sowards are the former federal public defender and Investigator who worked on the case and join us for this special two-hour episode to give all the details.
They walk us through this horribly unjust trial and explain how the criminal justice system set Barry up for failure from the start.
From junk science to bad witnesses, nothing about this trial was fair. To make it worse, the Supreme Court has reaffirmed that actual proof of innocence is not enough to overturn an execution.
Syliva and Andrew’s account of this story will change the entire way you view the criminal justice system.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Sylvia and Andrew’s background and how they got Barry’s case. [10:13]
- The police perspective. [21:37]
- The lack of story in this case. [29:08]
- The evidence provided. [30:29]
- Junk science within the trial. [40:50]
- Barry’s timeline on the day of the crime. [57:29]
- How to bring an innocence claim into federal court. [1:14:31]
- Dr. Howard’s testimony. [1:24:43]
- What finality is and why it’s there. [1:42:45]
- The conviction integrity unit. [1:49:27]
Guests:
Sylvia Lett, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona and Former Federal Public Defender
Andrew Sowards, Former Federal Public Defender Investigator
Resources:
The Intercept Story of Barry Jones
Arizona Capital Representation Project
After Speaking with Barry, Sylvia informed me that he welcomed letters from those with “authentic interest in the injustices in his case”. He would welcome correspondence to speak about his case. While he says he has no time for sympathy, I can only imagine showing him that there are people who care, who see the injustice done to him, and who are fighting to lift up his story will help him maintain his fighting spirit. Please do not write to him simply for the novelty of writing to someone on death row and please mark all mail with "NON-LEGAL MAIL" His address is: Barry Lee Jones, ADOC #114690 ASPC Florence Browning Unit P.O. Box 8200 Florence, AZ 85132
Memorable Quotes:
“A just system is not just one that protects the innocent. It also protects everybody involved in it because that is a merciful system.” (8:10, Hunter)
“Barry's case is kind of the poster case of failures all around, in many ways.” (31:54, Sylvia)
“So often we think justice is solving the crime, but justice also involves making sure that we are doing right by the accused.” (47:47, Hunter)
“If you don't know the person, if you don't live with them, don't be judging their emotion, their emotional response, because every single person is different.” (51:36, Andrew)
“If you are concerned or worried about state power and the threat of the state, I promise you that it is the work of federal public defenders, federal investigators, and public defenders around the country who will do more to protect you from the power of the state than a gun ever will.” (1:48:49, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
26: Junk Science and the Makings of a Wrongful Conviction with Chris Fabricant
Like most people, shows like CSI, Law and Order, or even Dexter, may have you convinced that the science used to convict people is airtight. Everything from bite marks, blood spatter, and even finger prints, must be scientifically valid...right?
What if I told you, almost all of it is predicated on junk science and the failings of the legal system to catch it? Today’s guest is on the show to highlight this and the infrastructure that has been created to support wrongful convictions.
Chris Fabricant is the Director of Strategic Litigation at the Innocence Project and the author of Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System.
In this episode, we will go over some of the findings in Chris' book that help us to understand how the legal system allowed bad science to become such a powerful tool to wrongfully convict thousands of Americans.
Giving his solutions to the junk science problem, Chris will leave you with the hope that it will one day be no more.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Hunter’s definition of a wrongful conviction. [6:25]
- How junk science got into the criminal system. [13:37]
- The issue with pattern matching. [23:09]
- Society’s strong desire to punish. [31:12]
- How the Supreme Court has played a role in wrongful convictions and mass incarceration. [37:06]
- The principle of finality. [38:03]
- Denialism around actual innocence. [47:17]
- Promoting scientific literacy among lawyers. [1:06:25]
Guest:
Chris Fabricant, Director of Strategic Litigation, Innocence Project
Resources:
2009 National Academy of Sciences Report
2016 PCAST Forensic Science Report
Buy Chris’s Book Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System
Memorable Quotes:
“I don't think people actually want to live in the type of society that our legal principles say we should be living in.” (4:50, Hunter)
“What we know about the law as compared to science is that the law is stable.” (22:17, Chris)
“In reality, crime usually happens. Police get together, form their suspect. And then, a lot of the analysis of the evidence is then with that suspect in mind.” (27:39, Hunter)
“Science should always be objective, it should be separated from the adversarial process.” (29:40, Chris)
“There’s widespread scientific illiteracy in the bar.” [50:59, Chris)
“Once you're accused unless you can afford really, really good counsel, you're kind of fucked.” (59:56, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
25: The Need for Mercy in the Kentucky Legal System w/Ed Monahan
In 1976, Ed Monahan was hired as a Kentucky assistant public defender. He would eventually go on to be the state’s Public Advocate for an impressive 9 years.
Although he no longer fills that position, today Ed comes on Public Defenseless to talk about the impactful work he did in that role and the advocacy he continues to do today.
He’ll also give you a good overview of the public defense system in Kentucky. While the state has a good foundation, it still desperately lacks funding.
In a state that has one of the highest incarceration rates in the nation, Ed Monahan is turning around the system for the better.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Ed’s background and how he got to where he is today. [9:57]
- The evolution of Kentucky public defense. [12:01]
- Alternative sentencing. [26:36]
- Ed explains Marsy’s Law. [38:04]
- Why many people don’t believe in “innocent until proven guilty.” [42:09]
- The greatest public defense victories in Kentucky. [45:23]
- The NAPD standard that gets the least attention and the most important one. [52:22]
- The importance of having a private place for legal communication. [56:58]
Guest:
Ed Monahan, Former Public Advocate for the Commonwealth Kentucky, Former Executive Director of the National Association of Public Defenders Fund for Justice, Active Contributor to National Association of Public Defenders' Policy
Resources:
FY19 Kentucky Department of the Public Advocate Annual Report
Ed Monahan OpEd on Bad Statistics Driving Policy
Ed Monahan & Nina Ginsberg on Marsy's Law
Farewell Address from Ed Monahan
NAPD Policy on Active Supervision
NAPD Policy on Proper Professional Space
Memorable Quotes:
“I came on without any training. I was just handed cases. And so I knew there was a better way.” (17:54, Ed)
“We have good training culture of active supervision, but what Kentucky has not had is adequate funding through all these years.” (20:25, Ed)
“There still are many public policy leaders in Kentucky who when faced with those facts of reduced crime rates still have this desire to incarcerate more people for longer periods of time. It's really a financially imprudent and counterproductive way for Kentucky to use its limited resources.” (28:27, Ed)
“I really believe as public defender leaders, we have to do a better job of communicating the public value of public defense.” (34:54, Ed)
“I do public defender work out of my deep held beliefs that poor people deserve to have the best representation that money could buy.” (38:51, Ed)
“Having realistic hope in what's possible in the future is the motivation to continue to apply the talents and skills any of us have to work for a better criminal justice system.” (47:50, Ed)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
24: How the Media Poisons Criminal Justice Discourse with Scott Hechinger
Scott Hechinger is the founder and executive director of Zealous. Through his work, he is fighting hard to challenge injustice through the media and topple the imbalance of power within the criminal justice system.
As a former public defender in the Bronx system, he comes on today’s episode to talk all about New York Public Defense and his work to make it fairer for all. He explains how he collaborates with the media to change the narrative around public defense and break long-held stigmas. He also shares how he encourages all members of the public defense system to come together for positive change.
Scott is an impressive example of one individual who is changing the public defense system for good!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Who Scott is and his role in public defense. [8:53]
- How public defense in New York has changed. [11:17]
- Why fear hurts the public defense system. [18:54]
- What people are getting wrong about bail reform. [27:49]
- Reasons the media is biased. [34:07]
- Why police and prosecutors often lie to the media. [40:51]
- Defining justice. [51:48]
- Scott’s goals moving forward. [57:33]
Resources:
Prince George County Court Watchers
Memorable Quotes:
“When we see public defenders in the news, it's often saying no comment, we kind of model that behavior and assume that we're not supposed to talk.” (16:24, Scott)
“If we actually cared about public health and safety, we wouldn't be investing billions into costly and cruel and failed solutions.” (19:19, Scott)
“Here's what people need to know: the reality is that bail reform is consistent with greater public safety.” (33:04, Scott)
“I think people just need to realize that, to tell a whole story. You need every aspect of that story. You can't just listen to the same side because they're going to have the same biases.” (41:35, Hunter)
“I know that when folks are locked up and pushed away, not forced to confront the pain that they caused, it's actually not holding folks accountable. It’s easier to put it out of sight out of mind”. (56:35, Scott)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
23: Gideon's Promise and Public Defense Culture with Jon Rapping
The founder of Gideon’s Promise, this nonprofit organization is on a mission to build a movement of public defenders that can drive transformative change within the criminal legal system.
In this episode, Jon talks about the challenges of shaping the culture of a public defender office to one that is capable of providing client centered public defense.
He explains why so many young public defenders come into this field passionate and ready to drive change, but end up burning out and going with the status quo.
By mentoring these lawyers and building a community to support them, public defenders receive strategies to close the gap between themselves and their clients.
The criminal justice and public defense systems might be dysfunctional, but this episode will give you hope that positive change is on the horizon.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Who Jon is and what he does at Gideon’s Promise. [0:21]
- Why Washington DC has such a strong public defense system. [2:55]
- The reasons that Americans have embraced the tough-on-crime movement. [12:39]
- Overcoming discrimination. [16:29]
- The power of storytelling. [27:11]
- Fixing law schools. [31:36]
- What client-centered really means. [43:58]
- Addiction and mental health issues. [46:56]
Guest:
Jon Rapping, Executive Director/Co-Founder of Gideon's Promise
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
“Systems that lack funding and lack independence very quickly develop a culture where public defenders are pushed to go along with the status quo to please judges and value efficiency over representing clients and valuing justice.” (4:45, Jon)
“No longer do we really believe in a criminal legal system like the founders envisioned. It is a system for perpetuating control of people.” (10:45, Jon)
“The public is fed a narrative that says marginalized communities, black and brown communities, are dangerous, they're a threat.” (13:19, Jon)
“Law schools are failing at the responsibility of producing lawyers who understand what justice is.” (27:53, Jon)
“Culture is a function of our values.” (38:44, Jon)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
22: How Automation Can Help Public Defense with Rocky Ramirez and Paul Chambers
That's where my guests for today's show come into play. Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel in Bexar County, Texas, and Paul Chambers, Public Defender at the Far West Texas Office, are on a mission to modernize the system.
Public defenders almost notoriously never have enough time. But when Rocky and Paul discovered automation, they found a way to speed up the system while giving public defenders time to do more things aimed at client focused representation.
In this episode, Rocky and Paul talk about how they’ve implemented automation within the Texas indigent system and the positive effects it’s had for all parties involved.
Their passion for creating a system that better helps their clients in cost effective ways could truly revolutionize the way many offices are doing buisness!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Where Rocky and Paul fit into the Texas public defense system. [7:28]
- What public defenders don’t have time to do. [16:36]
- How they implemented automation into their offices. [22:43]
- What could go wrong with computer automation. [34:42]
- Assigned council contract counsel and automation. [39:32]
- The evolution of automation. [48:20]
- Pushbacks to automation. [54:07]
Guests:
Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel, Legal Technology Resource Attorney, Bexar County Texas
Paul Chambers, Public Defender Far West Texas Office
Resources:
Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
Memorable Quotes:
“I think that's a very positive thing for people to hear criminal defense attorneys have souls.” (10:16, Hunter)
“I kind of started focusing my time on learning these domains, learning about data science, learning about process automation, robotic process automation, business, process automation, trying to kind of stamp my feet and say, hey, we gotta be paying attention to this. This is something that could really change the game.” (16:03, Paul)
“The things that we as attorneys need to be focused on is the thing that we have the least amount of time to do, which is why the system is exactly the way it is.” (19:24, Paul)
“You've got people doing things, these tedious processes that take hours, and they can be boiled down to a click of a button.” (26:45, Rocky)
“The future for public defenders, I think is pretty huge. I can see a world where as close to zero of repetitive data entry and non-legal work is happening on a case or in an office. And that means a lot.” (43:09, Paul)
“The point is you can't get somebody to create something for you. We're moving to a world where we create it for ourselves.” (49:49, Rocky)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
21: Public Defense Appellate Law and PD Commissions with Frances Brown
Ready to hear about a different type of law?
So far, we’ve spoken to many public defenders who have done work on the trial level, but today I talk to someone who can take you into the nuances of appellate law.
In this episode, I speak with Frances Brown: a former appellate public defender, former Chief Administrative Officer of the Colorado State Public Defender Office, and a current member of the Aurora Public Defender Commission.
Frances brings a wealth of knowledge with her about what really goes into appellate law and the unique types of arguments that can be made.
She is also a veteran of the legal industry, so she’ll take you through what she has seen around the growth of women in the legal profession.
Lastly, Frances shares key insight into what goes into the policies and practices of the Public Defender Commissions.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Frances’ career and how she got started. [0:36]
- How appellate representations are different from trial work. [18:38]
- The complexities of appeals. [27:41]
- Greatest policy victories in Colorado. [31:21]
- What Frances’ current role looks like. [45:24]
- How Frances has moved forward public defense in Aurora. [50:15]
- How Women’s rights have increased in the public defense system. [1:03:54]
Guest:
Frances Brown, Former Chief Administrative Officer of Colorado State Public Defender Office, Current Member of the Aurora Public Defender Commission
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
“I love my job. And I always did. And I do feel very blessed for that.” (18:26, Frances)
“The main thing about appellate law is everything you do is based on the record.” (19:49, Frances)
“The biggest part of being a public defender is the ability to go to court.” (40:19, Frances)
“I felt very strongly for many, many years that the public defender system would benefit tremendously from having social workers.” (41:44, Frances)
“I am an expert in an area of law that nobody needs to be an expert in, which is conflict of interest in public defender offices.” (49:07, Frances)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
20: Representing Mothers in Tulsa, Oklahoma with Aisha McWeay
Aisha McWeay is a former public defender and the Executive Director of Still She Rises, the first holistic defense office in the country dedicated exclusively to the representation of mothers in both the criminal and civil legal systems.
Today's episode brings to light the unique challenges that mothers face as they navigate the complicated legal world they face in the greater Tulsa community.
Still She Rises stands out as an organization that seeks to use the skills of a broad team of attorneys, social workers, client advocates, and community resources specialists to get the needs of each of their clients met.
While Aisha and her team take this holistic approach to reach the best possible outcomes for their clients, Aisha and I discussed the many shortfalls that Public Defense in Oklahoma faces because of decades of underfunding.
Of all the takeaways from this episode, Aisha I think best lays out just what holistic defense looks like in practice, and acts as an example to those that think progress cannot happen in a place like Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Note: This episode was recorded on March 17th 2022
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- How Aisha got into public defense and the role she is in now. [7:28]
- The legal world’s perception of public defense. [14:50]
- The unique needs of women who go through the legal system. [20:53]
- What public defense looks like in Oklahoma. [25:48]
- What a holistic defense model looks like. [39:11]
- How Aisha helps her clients with children. [49:28]
- The art of storytelling. [53:00]
- Where Aisha wants public defense in Oklahoma to head. [58:37]
Guest:
Aisha McWeay, Executive Director of Still She Rises
Resources:
George Kaiser Family Foundation
Memorable Quotes:
“That got me to be so interested in interning with the public defender’s office, and quite frankly, I fell in love with the work. I fell in love with representing clients. I fell in love with trying to use my skills to help humanize and tell the client’s story.” (8:47, Aisha)
“As a whole, particularly in America, public interest-driven law is the minority.” (17:10), Aisha)
“There’s so many things that happen that aren’t criminal, that are impacting the lives that then get people to criminal.” (25:24, Hunter)
“When someone is arrested, they should be able to have some say in who is representing them.” (29:51, Aisha)
“An attorney, despite what some of them say is not always the smartest person in the room, in every single topic.” (44:49, Hunter)
“Ultimately the call on whether someone can or can't do a thing is not up to us as their attorney. It is up to us to certainly give them as much information as possible to make really honest and informed decisions.” (50:46, Aisha)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
19: How Pennsylvania's Failure to Fund Public Defense Hurts Everyone w/Keisha Hudson
In Philadelphia, a whopping 70% of people arrested are represented by public defenders.
In this episode, I speak with Keisha Hudson, the Chief Defender of the Philadelphia Defender Association.
She walks me through the ins and outs of the indigent defense system in Pennsylvania, and how she deals with the lack of funding and support from the legislature.
Pennsylvania stands as one of the only states that provides 0 funding to Public Defenders at the trial level. This lack of funding often forces public defenders to fight the county governments for desperately needed funding. In our conversation, Keisha shares with us her fight for funding in Montgomery County.
Despite the lack of funding, Keisha will show us how she is able to lead the Philadelphia Defender Association to be renowned as one of the best offices in the state despite the lack of support.
With her expertise and passion, Keisha was a fantastic guest to discuss the challenging cases Public Defenders can face and how failing to fund Public Defense rested at the heart of the Kids for Cash Scandal in Luzerne County.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Keisha’s background and where she fits into the system. [0:32]
- How public defenders are using strategic advocacy. [9:27]
- Building relationships with media. [13:20]
- The role of restorative justice. [19:33]
- Why Philadelphia has such a strong public defense system. [41:45]
- What’s going to bring change? [38:38]
- Where Keisha wants public defense to go. [48:24]
Guest:
Keisha Hudson, Chief Defender Philadelphia Defender Association
Resources:
Pennsylvania Committee on racial and Gender and Bias in the Justice System
Task Force and Advisory Committee on Services to Indigent Criminal Defendants
Lawsuit Against Luzerne County
Memorable Quotes:
“If you are looking to do public defense and you want to learn how to be an incredible trial lawyer, then come to Philadephia. We have earned and enjoyed a reputation for our zealous advocacy in and out of the courtroom.” (1:58, Keisha)
“We are appointed in every case where someone cannot afford counsel. And when you have an office that's not funded and resourced, it presents a significant constitutional challenge in meeting those requirements of zealous and effective advocacy.” (5:29, Keisha)
“You can find something redeeming about every human being.” (18:02, Keisha)
“I think if you balance the scales and if you have a well-funded, well-resourced public defender office who can push those issues and not fear political repercussions from county commissioners or from the bench, you are able to make a better impact.” (36:54, Keisha)
“If we truly prevent crime and lower crime rates and impact public safety, then we need to reinvest in solutions we know work and in a robust social safety net.” (47:44, Keisha)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
18: Data-Driven Public Defense Policy with Stephen Hanlon
In today’s episode, I speak with Stephen Hanlon, who has been working for over 30 years to drive forward public interest law.
With the depth of his experience to back him up, he’ll explain how data is the key to pushing forward legislation and law suits that can help to reshape and empower public defense.
When advocating for a change to any system, there has to be mutli-faceted approaches. Some people respond well to the emotional stories. For others, it is data they find the most compelling, and that is what Stephen brings to the table. Data to help bolster the compelling stories of defenders and their clients from around the country.
Stephen Hanlon holds a tremendous amount of wisdom and his passion for bettering the system will inspire you to take action!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- How Stephen made his way into the public defense system. [9:37]
- Handling states that won’t listen to data. [20:42]
- Case refusal. [25:31]
- Why the public defense system needs business plans. [27:14]
- Will we ever be in a place where public defenders only take the cases they can handle? [33:19]
- How contract-dependent states should be handled. [52:24]
- A message from Stephen to the future generations of attorneys. [58:57]
Guest:
Stephen Hanlon, a leader in Public Interest Law over the last 50 years
Resources:
State of Louisiana v Covington
Memorable Quotes:
“Are we willing to live in a society that reflects the principles that we say we value?” (5:56, Hunter)
“I want a lever. I want to be the leveraging force to incentivize and indeed force change.” (13:01, Stephen)
“The whole problem with this thing is that there’s no business plan for the criminal processing system. We should have never agreed to do this.” (27:14, Stephen)
“Without an adequate defense lawyer, a court is not properly constituted.” (31:36, Stephen)
“Implore your representatives to ask questions besides guns and abortions.” (39:06, Hunter)
“The federal is the floor, the states are the ceiling. Go for the ceiling!” (40:06, Stephen)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
17: Public Defenseless 202
In this special solo episode, I share some thoughts on the first 16 episodes, thoughts from my interactions with people who have reached out, and the direction the show will be going over the next few points
I wanna first thank all the people who have gone through the system who have reached out for help/advice/or to share your story. This project is designed to correct the system so that it helps people like yourself, so thank you!
In light of the nomination hearings for soon to be Justice Jackson, I was yet again struck by the fear of being soft on crime. As I discusss in this episode, the Constitution, the bedrock of the American legal system is incredibly soft on crime. I talk a lot about how we manage our desire for justice and the obligations to protect the rights of people.
Lastly, I cover the danger I see in our legal system continuing to march away from jury trials and instead towards plea deals.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Difficulties in building Trust between PDs and clients [1:43]
- Soft on crime policies. [9:55]
- Why jury trials are so important. [13:03]
- The issues with plea deals. [19:09]
- What Hunter has learned from each episode to date. [25:44]
- The importance of supervision. [33:45]
- The intersection of race and class. [45:32]
Memorable Quotes:
“The most consistent thing I hear from people who reach out to me is the mistrust in the indigent defense with public defenders.” (1:49, Hunter)
“If our founding fathers wanted to make a harsh on crime policy, a pro-police constitution, I’m going to tell you they couldn’t have done a worse job of doing it.” (9:55, Hunter)
“The theme is so clear, ladies and gentleman, that we are no longer a system of trials. We are a system of plea deals, and I do not think that bet drives us in the correct direction.” (21:29, Hunter)
“If you want public defenders to be better, it's good to have supervision in a lot of cases and have supervising attorneys who have that guiding hand and the knowledge to help people make more informed decisions.” (34:48, Hunter)
“If you actually look at the living wage standard in most states and most communities, we don't come anywhere close to giving attorneys to all the people who cannot actually afford them.” (46:41, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
16: Can Assigned Counsel Public Defense System Work? w/Tim Rensch & Bob Pesall
16: South Dakota Public Defense w/ Tim Rensch & Bob Pesall
South Dakota is like many states around the country in that there are some public defender offices in the “cities,” but the rest of the state is served through an assigned council system.
Today, I talk to two incredibly experienced and knowledgeable assigned councils in the state: Tim Rensch and Bob Pesall.
Each shares a different perspective on public defense in South Dakota, Tim being in an urban area and Bob being in a rural one.
With few outside evaluations of public defense in the state, we go through the nuances and strengths of the system in South Dakota.
Tim and Bob are two extraordinary examples of assigned councils that go above and beyond for their clients and truly care about the quality of the system.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- How Tim and Bob got into public defense & their roles. [5:49]
- The number of assigned councils in the state. [12:54]
- The Catastrophic Legal Expense Relief Program. [17:43]
- The importance of expert witnesses. [22:02]
- The struggles of those who suffer from addiction and mental illness in the system. [28:54]
- How the debt of cycle perpetuates criminality. [47:02]
- The future direction of public defense in South Dakota. [50:18]
Guests:
Tim Rensch, President Rensch Law Corporation, South Dakota Assigned Counsel,
Bob Pesall, Assigned Counsel, Flanders South Dakota
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
“I've never called myself a public defender. I always have said I'm a court-appointed lawyer and I've always had great admiration for the public defenders who work the ins and outs of the court system every day.” (7:21, Tim)
“It can be a little tricky when you try and weigh the cost-benefit of getting lawyers on board versus the actual seriousness of the case.” (17:11, Bob)
“So the judges really, truly want to get people what they need. They just don't want to be burning money on experts that are useless.” (25:44, Bob)
“I think meth is a horrible drug. It's the only drug for which you've never heard anybody advocate socially about any useful benefit whatsoever. And it's a shame what happens.” (34:25, Tim)
“I think people are indigent. That means that they don't have the money to hire a lawyer. And to me, it does seem unfair to take somebody who is defined as indigent and then force them to pay these attorney's fees. No matter the outcome.” (39:47, Tim)
“I think that there are good experiences and bad experiences. The experiences that I've had, and that I'm aware of are mostly good. People want defendants to be represented. They want them to be represented by good lawyers. They don't want to have to redo things three times. And generally, the thought is, is that the system wants to be fair and be good to people.” (51:14, Tim)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
15: Was a Lawsuit Enough to Fix Missouri Public Defense? w/Anthony Rothert
Meet Anthony Rothert, one of the individuals behind those lawsuits.
Anthony is the Director of Integrated Advocacy at the American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri and is here today to give you the inside scoop on the cases.
You’ll learn the ins and outs of the indigent system in this state, from long wait times to high public defender turnover rates.
This episode will leave you with renewed hope that there are people out there working tirelessly to positively change the system for good.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Anthony’s role in the Missouri criminal justice system and the history of public defense in the state. [4:52]
- How public defender turnover affects indigent clients. [9:32]
- Public defense legislative history in the state. [12:27]
- Ethical dilemmas in the Missouri indigent system. [19:52]
- Anthony dives deep into the class-action lawsuits against the state of Missouri. [32:06]
- Indigent wait times in Missouri. [37:56]
- Goals for the future. [43:03]
- Progressive prosecutors. [50:04]
Guest:
Anthony Rothert, Director of Integrated Advocacy, American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri
Resources:
Michael Barret Letter to Gov Nixon
2014 ABA Missouri Workload Study
Memorable Quotes:
“Part of the reason attorneys leave is they’re overworked, they are not satisfied by their work because they don’t have time to do as good a job as they would like. And they’re not even paid well for it.” (15:24, Anthony)
“Defendants are faced with a choice. You can proceed without counsel, or you can wait.” (38:57, Anthony)
“We will be asking the court to enter a judgment in the case requiring the state to provide enough money so we don’t have waitlists.” (42:02, Anthony)
“We could decriminalize things. That would solve a lot.” (44:11, Anthony)
“It’s easy to say that the far-off bad guy is not good. But then when you work with attorneys who work in these offices, you realize, okay, they’re doing their job, which is to protect constitutional rights for individuals.” (48:09, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
14: West Virginia Public Defense with Dana Eddy & Stacey Fragile
West Virginia Public Defense with Dana Eddy & Stacey Fragile
When it comes to the public defense system, simple human connection is more important than you might think.
Dana Eddy, Executive Director of West Virginia Public Defender Services, and Stacey Fragile, Chief Public Defender of the 10th Judicial Circuit, are here to prove just that.
In this week’s episode, Dana and Stacey speak about their community outreach efforts in the state and how they are making a difference at a local level.
They share their arguments for a holistic defense model and lessening the time people spend in the criminal justice system.
You’ll learn that by connecting with people individually and focusing on the root of the problems, the entire public defense system could be changed for good.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- The structure of public defense in West Virginia and Dana’s role in it. [8:08]
- Stacey’s role in West Virginia Public Defense. [12:34]
- Community outreach programs in West Virginia. [18:57]
- Drug decriminalization in the state. [28:25]
- Public defense staffing issues in West Virginia. [49:56]
- Stacey & Dana’s biggest goals for public defense in the state. [54:44]
Guests:
Dana Eddy, Executive Director of West Virginia Public Defender Services
Stacey Fragile, Chief Public Defender of the 10th Judicial Circuit
Resources:
West Virginia Public Defender Services
Spangenberg Report West Virginia
West Virginia Annual Reports:
https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY18%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf
https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY17%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf
https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY16%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf
Memorable Quotes:
“It’s hard to say in the state of West Virginia that we need more money. I do think we need to spend it more intelligently.” (14:17, Dana)
“It’s always going to be a challenge to get the community to accept individuals who have been convicted of criminal charges that carry with them the stigma of either a sex offense or violent offense.” (26:31, Dana)
“The stigma is still there locally with the citizens in terms of all drugs are bad drugs, and until that changes, I don’t see us legalizing.” (32:45, Stacey)
“If I have one thing on my Christmas wishlist for this season, it would be that we look at a different mechanism for appointing counsel to these cases, but it's going to be hard to convince local judges that they need to give up out of authority, that control, over their courtroom.” (47:52, Dana)
“What I would say is there’s a lack of people who are really dedicated to public service and the public mission.” (52:15, Dana)
“We have to remove the stigma regarding mental health or we’re never going to make progress as a society.” (1:09:14, Stacey)
Contact Hunter Parnell
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
13: How Florida Disregards the Right to Counsel w/Rex Dimmig
From Gideon to Argersinger, much of the legal framework for the public defense came about because of the flaws in Florida public defender system. As one of the only places in the country with elected public defenders, it offers up several quirks that should worry people about the status of public defense in the state.
Today, I speak about this complicated system with Rex Dimmig, Chief Public Defender of the Florida 10th Judicial District and President of the Florida Public Defender Association.
Without glossing over the weaknesses of the system, you’ll hear how asking for an attorney may eventually lead to you losing the right to vote, a shortage of investigators and staff, and an increasing number of ways the state makes you pay for a "free" attorney.
Rex gives you a behind-the-scenes glimpse of the Florida criminal justice system while stressing the importance of independence.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Rex’s background and role in the Florida indigent system. [4:37]
- How a shortage of resources has created a crisis. [9:09]
- Efforts to improve Florida public defense. [13:20]
- Why Florida has elected public defenders. [20:11]
- The problems of a fee-based model. [25:09]
- Exploring the 6th amendment. [36:16]
- What is contributing to the low levels of representation in the state of Florida. [45:00]
- Florida’s failure in reducing recidivism.
Guest:
Rex Dimming, Chief Public Defender Florida 10th Judicial District & President of Florida Public Defender Association
Resources:
Florida Public Defender Association
“Despite Common Belief, Floridians Can't Always Get a Free Public Defender.”
Memorable Quotes:
“We’re generally satisfied with the distribution of resources, we’re not at all satisfied with the quantity of resources that we are given.” (8:34, Rex)
“I understand the concern that particularly in this hyper-partisan era, why some people might have some reservations about the elected process. All I can tell you is here in Florida. We haven't had that problem. The people who run for public defender are folks who are truly dedicated to the cause of indigent criminal defense.” (21:10, Rex)
“Next to funding, independence is one of the hardest things to establish and the hardest thing to maintain of any public defender system.” (23:06, Hunter)
“There’s got to be a serious exploration of ways to increase revenue that are not dependent upon user fees that are just never going to be paid in substantial numbers.” (34:55, Rex)
“In the effort to make sure that the worst perpetrators are punished, we create such a sweepingly aggressive punishment system that those who probably shouldn’t be given similar results in their life are then straddled with it.” (44:34, Hunter)
“What the goal of the criminal justice system has to be is to change people’s unlawful conduct. If that’s not the goal of your system, then locking somebody up, all that does is guarantee that once they’re back out, they’re going to re-offend.” (52:44, Rex)
12: Why Are Virginia Public Defenders Only Paid to Work on a Case for Two Hours? w/Amari Harris
In the American conversation, there is a large overlap between class and race. Yet very often, we underplay the role that class plays in the dynamics of our legal system
In today’s episode, Hunter chats with Amari Harris, the Equity Diversity and Inclusion Attorney for Virginia Public Defenders to discuss those dynamics and more.
He describes his much-needed position within the Virginia public defense system, the broken payment structure for contract attorneys, the ways in which Virginia prosecutors can engage in trial by ambush, and the important of crafting public messaging around public defense to fit the demographics and needs of the communities they serve.
Amari bridges the gap between practicing public defenders and their clients—helping them effectively approach each client’s unique life experiences.
This episode challenges people to constantly think about how messaging around public defense will most effectively get people across the racial and socioeconmic spectrum to care about public defense reform.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- An overview of the Virginia public defense system & Amari’s role within it. [3:04]
- Why many cases don’t get an investigation even though they need one. [18:26]
- The negative impacts of “trial by ambush.” [21:03]
- Ways that the rural areas are disadvantaged in Virginia. [24:57]
- How Amari handles the massive amount of diversity in the state. [30:58]
- Amari walks you through Virginia indigency standards. [43:55]
- Hunter and Amari dig deep into class arguments. [46:15]
- Amari’s goals for a better public defense system of tomorrow in Virginia. [50:01]
Guest:
Amari Harris, Equity Diversity and Inclusion Attorney for Virginia Public Defenders
Resources:
2016 ACLU report on Prosecutor Power
Memorable Quotes:
“Being a great lawyer is fantastic, but you could be a great lawyer and a bad public defender if you can’t relate to your clients, if you can’t engender yourself to the community in some way, then you’re doing our clients a disservice.” (6:20, Amari)
“If there’s one thing that I know from just looking nationally, when you have a flat fee structure like this, you’re not getting investigation.” (18:09, Hunter)
“Just having someone that thinks a little bit differently than another person in the room makes that other person so much smarter than if they just read about the information.” (32:46, Amari)
“If we think of diversity and inclusion only as representing ethnic and racial things, you’re missing the point.” (34:53, Hunter)
“I think race does dictate a lot of what goes on in the criminal justice system and it’s been historic, but if you lead with that, then you will lose a lot of people.” (42:59, Amari)
“Every public defender who stays in this long enough will work under blue and red administration. And the idea that you simply have to throw up your hands and go ‘well shucks, wait till the guy who agrees with me comes into office’ is not workable.” (49:30, Hunter)
11: Is the Cannabis Industry Falling Short in its Fight? with Steve DeAngelo
Right now, approximately 40,000 people are incarcerated for cannabis-related charges, while others are making millions of dollars in the legal industry.
Steve DeAngelo, often considered “the father of the legal industry,” has been fighting for reform since the 1970s.
In today’s episode, Steve is here to talk about his work to reform both the cannabis industry and state laws through his organization the Last Prisoner Project.
He’ll disprove the common misconceptions around cannabis while teaching you the spirit of the plant.
Steve will leave you with a clear image of the ideal cannabis industry and will also give you arguments for cannabis reform to keep in your back pocket.
Just by listening to this episode and sharing the information, you can be a part of the change!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- What the Last Prisoner Project is and why it’s important. [10:33]
- Decriminalization vs. full legalization. [19:53]
- Bringing people who were harmed by cannabis prohibition into the legal industry. [22:19]
- Protecting yourself against the predatory cannabis industry. [29:56]
- Should cannabis reform be a primary issue? [31:40]
- The importance of coalition building. [33:53]
- Exploring faith-based opposition. [40:03]
- Legalization of other psychoactive plants. [49:48]
Guest:
Steve DeAngelo, Father of the Legal Cannabis Industry, Founder of Harborside Dispensary, Founder of the Last Prisoner Project
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
“Every governor in the United States of America has the power to release cannabis prisoners with the stroke of a pen. And we believe that, especially in states where voters have voted to legalize cannabis, that every governor should do so.” (12:49, Steve)
“I think that mobilizing people to defend their right to be able to grow cannabis in their own homes is pretty achievable.” (31:2, Steve)
“I believe that cannabis is more than just another product. There's no other product that teaches us lessons and that gives us a common value system.” (35:55, Steve)
“When you look at the cannabis plant across the breadth of human history, what you find is that every single human culture on this planet has adopted and used this planet successfully almost without exception.” (43:13, Steve)
“When you look at the total range of substances that are out there, there's no question that cannabis should not be illegal. It should not be restricted. In fact, cannabis use should be celebrated and promoted because it gives social benefits rather than harms.” (50:48, Steve)
“My belief is that if more people around the world consume cannabis, that we're going to end up living in a better world.” (58:37, Steve)
10: How did Colorado Build one of the Best Public Defense Systems? w/Doug Wilson
Colorado’s Doug Wilson has worked in the public defense system for over 40 years, so to say he holds a boatload of knowledge is an understatement!
Colorado has one of the best models of public defense and Doug is one of the people responsible for that success.
In this episode, Doug explains how he worked with the Colorado legislature to create a system built on independence and increase their budget by over 40 million dollars.
You’ll also hear about Colorado’s weaknesses—poor determination standards, court fees, and a lack of community outreach.
However, Wilson continues to advocate for an improved public defense system in Colorado.
In a world where not everybody gets access to representation and public defenders are overworked and underpaid, Doug Wilson is tenaciously working to change that.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Why Colorado’s public defense system so well and how Doug laid that foundation [4:05]
- Public defense is a part of public safety [12:35]
- Defining recidivism [13:58]
- Doug and I dive deep into The Colorado Project, a recent workload analysis [28:16]
- Doug breaks down Colorado’s determination standards [32:09]
- Colorado’s struggle to provide adequate mental health services [50:30]
- The negative impacts of horizontal representation [1:04:06]
Guests:
Doug Wilson, Chief Public Defender of Aurora Municipal Defender Office and former Chief Public Defender of The Colorado Office of the State Public Defender
Resources:
NLADA Aurora Public Defender Assessment
ACLU Report on Colorado Municipal Courts
Office of the State Public Defender of Colorado
Aurora Office of the Public Defender
Do You Qualify for a Public Defender in Colorado?
Memorable Quotes:
“Indigent clients must be given the same constitutionally effect and officiant counsel as folks who can afford to pay for their attorney. That’s huge. You don’t see that level of independence or those mandates in very many systems around the country.” (6:38, Doug)
“We're part of the public safety discussion as well, because for every person that we can keep out of the system or keep from coming back into the system, by our intervention or our representation, or our alternative sentencing plan… that protects the public.” (12:45. Doug)
“50% of the bill of rights is there to protect the individual against the government.” (22:00, Doug)
“So for my listeners, indigent does not mean just the homeless person on the side of the road with two pennies to rub together. It is the family next door struggling with medical debt, it is the family across the street who just got into a fender bender, it is the guy at work who just got laid off to no fault of his own. It is every ordinary people who will face the brunt of the legal system without an attorney.” (38:07, Hunter)
“There are only five dedicated, municipal structured public defender offices in the country. Think about that.” (49:59, Doug)
“When a person's livelihood is dependent upon them not realizing they're doing something bad, they will very rarely realize they're doing something bad.” (46:34, Hunter)
09: What Can Cannabis Reform Teach us About Criminal Justice Reform with Christian Sederberg
Today’s guest, Christian Sederberg, is here to teach you the truth.
Christian is a founding partner at Vincente Sederberg LLP, a national law firm that tackles drug reform.
This week, he will walk you through the complicated subject of marijuana legalization, from lobbying efforts to local advocacy.
He’ll teach you the misconceptions around the marijuana industry and by the time you’re done listening, you’ll be able to form your own informed opinion.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- What Christian’s law firm does [4:28]
- The policy side of Marijuana legalization [6:19]
- Christian’s work in the mental health arena [20:45]
- Health equity in the marijuana industry [29:16]
- Where we should allocate tax dollars [33:16]
- Marijuana crimes in legal states [41:36]
- Why it’s hard to start a small business in the marijuana industry [47:11]
- Christian’s long-term goals for marijuana policy [52:45]
Guest:
Christian Sederberg, Founding Partner at Vicente Sederberg LLP
Resources:
Vicente Sederberg Law Firm Bio
Multipledisplenary Association for Psychedelic Studies
To reach out to Christian: christian@vicentesederberg.com
Memorable Quotes:
“When you move to actually treating addiction, you have lower rates of recidivism, your jails have less issues, and you have more resources that could be allocated to what people would consider more serious (quote-unquote) crimes.” (16:34, Hunter)
“Their argument was if we create a tax system that relies upon mental health, would rely upon these tax dollars to have these programs, then we'll never be able to get to our ultimate goal of banning these products.” (23:28, Christian)
“This country is shifting its frame that there can be responsible marijuana users. They’re not all potheads.” (34:06, Christian)
“We think we know what people need instead of engaging with them and asking, and actually having them tell us what they need.” (40:02, Christian)
“We're talking about the fundamental problem with American law enforcement, in my opinion, which is that we still have a lot of work to do on how we treat the poorest communities.” (42:46, Christian)
“We need to fundamentally shift our mindset, to look at all of these issues as public health issues and individual health issues, not as criminal justice issues.” (53:17, Christian)
08: Why Did Indiana's Public Defense System Fail? w/Larry Landis
When it comes to public defense, Larry Landis is a legend.
As the former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council, Larry has been in public defense since the 1970s and has worked with some of the biggest names in the industry.
As the architect of the current Indiana indigent defense system, he explains how the reimbursement model Indiana runs on came to be and how it affects people trapped in the legal system.
Because Larry has been in this industry for so long, you’ll get a unique behind-the-scenes view of the Indiana indigent defense system that you won’t get anywhere else!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Larry’s background + an overview of his impressive career
- The evolution of public defense infrastructure in Indiana
- Larry’s past legislative work to improve Indiana public defense
- When the speediness of a trial gets in the way of a fair one
- Why misdemeanors in Indiana are not reimbursed
- The vilification of public defenders
- Winning back communities that have lost faith in public defenders
- How we can encourage law students to see public defense as a legitimate career opportunity
Guest:
Larry Landis, Former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council
Resources:
Sixth Amendment Center Report Indiana
2017 Task Force on Indiana Indigent Defense
2020 American Bar Association Workload Study
Memorable Quotes:
“There’s too many cases trying to fit through a small funnel.” (6:40, Larry)
“We have tried numerous times to increase reimbursement for misdemeanors, but I’ve never been successful.” (12:25, Larry)
“Lawyers are no different than most people, they can be desensitized and numbed by the fact that they’re not providing effective representation. My position is they need to be much stronger at advocating and challenging the system and refusing to be enablers” (21:01, Larry)
“The adversarial system is designed for once that accusation is lodged, game on in terms of that, that train is rolling down the tracks. And if you don’t have someone to slow it down, you’re going to prison.” (38:52, Larry)
“There’s gotta be consequences right now, there’s virtually none. So the lawyers can get away with curing corners, counties can underfund it, and there’s no consequence.” (49:52, Larry)
“We have this idea that people who require indigent defense are the worst of the worst of society. When in reality, the vast majority of them are low-level offenders who given enough opportunity, given the resources and not just discarded from society can again be productive members.” (57:04, Hunter)
----
07: The Power of Creating an Independent Public Defense System w/Ben Baur
Today, I speak with Bennet Baur, the Chief Public Defender of New Mexico.
With the power of the people behind them, Ben Baur and the New Mexico Public Defenders were able to find independence and fight for desperately needed reforms.
Yet a decade after gaining independence, the Law Offices of the Public Defender can handle only one-third of the cases they carry.
This week, join us as we uncover what is going right, what is going wrong, and how our community is put in danger because of a lack of public defense funding.
Bennet Baur is a wonderful example of what happens when a public defender cares about personal freedom.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Bennet’s role and how his office came to be [3:49]
- Important public policy issues in new Mexico public defense [8:10]
- The 2007 caseload report that was done on New Mexico public defense [11:19]
- Why public defense should be the baseline on how cases are charged [12:52]
- The problems with a flat fee system [22:56]
- What happens when a client is waiting for representation [35:29]
- Problem with probations and how they are moving into a harm reduction model [41:12]
- Representation of migrants [47:52]
Guests:
Bennet Baur, Chief Public Defender at New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender
Resources:
American Bar Association New Mexico Project
New Mexico Public Defender Website
Memorable Quotes:
“It’s also policy, you know not just advocating for our clients, but advocating for what we think is good public policy.” (7:32, Ben)
“Because I work in the system, I believe that over-incarceration, that just putting people in jail, isn’t going to solve the problem.” (10:05, Ben)
“When those mistakes interact with a human being’s life, liberty, and their ability to make a living, those are mistakes that can’t happen.” ( 20:32, Hunter)
“The system is based upon is lawyers doing a lot of work for free for the state. And that's not the way that this should work. It shouldn’t be up to a lawyer to do work for free, which is what happens to provide ethical representation.” (28:11, Ben)
“Give us more money or give us fewer cases.” (33:49, Ben)
“I’ll say it again. We missed the point of these bail reforms. There are certain individuals who, because of poverty, are not a threat to the community and are in jail.” (38:01, Hunter)
“I hate that we as a society always have an overreaction to everything that happens, whether it’s on the left or right, or something bad happens that we don’t like. And then we over-correct, so we make it just as bad. And we can't get that pendulum to just sit right in the middle where it works ” (39:11, Hunter)
“You shouldn’t fund government services on poor people.” (40:13, Ben)
06: How the Louisiana Public Defenders are Paid to Lose w/Derwyn Bunton & Trisha Ward
Louisiana holds one of the highest incarceration rates in the world.
And with a lack of funding, public defenders can only handle 21% of open cases at a time.
In today’s episode, I speak to two impressive guests: Derwyn Bunton, Chief Public Defender of Orleans Public Defenders, and Trisha Ward, Chief Public Defender of Evangeline Parish.
Together, Derwyn and Trisha walk us through the complexities of the Louisiana indigent defense system and how its fee-based model leads to problems.
Derwyn and Trisha are truly beacons of strength in an overwhelming system.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
An overview of Louisiana’s user pay system of justice [4:49]
The reality of fees in Louisiana [9:31]
The difficulties that Trish faces at a rural level [14:57]
How hurricanes affect public defense in Louisiana [17:27]
Pre-trial confinement in Louisiana & why it’s so long [20:07]
The types of people who go through the Louisiana indigent system [29:01]
Why the cases have piled up so high [38:42]
The importance of investigators [41:45]
Guests:
Derwyn Bunton, Chief Public Defender of Orleans Public Defenders
Trisha Ward, Chief Public Defender of Evangeline Parish
Resources:
Orleans Public Defenders
Evangeline Parish Public Defenders
Memorable Quotes:
“Public defenders in Louisiana are paid to lose. Structurally paid to lose. This is an incentive to plead because that’s where the funding comes from.” [11:20, Derwin]
“What we need to do is let folks know that public define is a part of our constitution, but it’s also part of our political culture and heritage as a country.” [12:03, Derwin]
“It’s very easy to have your kids permanently removed and your rights terminated. So I think that may be the most egregious thing at the end.” [27:08, Trisha]
“We can also lower the amount of people who are going through the system in general because we are getting to the roots of criminality, that I think is so important for people to understand.” [37:35, Hunter]
“We are poorly, very poorly funded. And I’m having to just lay the basic groundwork right now, and call that me moving in a client-centered direction, which I do think it is, but there are many many challenges ahead because of the way that our systems are funded.” [40:28, Trisha]
“If we have investigations handled properly, the courts don’t have to deal with cases where innocence is obvious. You don’t need a bad actor to have somebody wrongfully accused of a crime.” [46:11, Hunter]
“I don’t see any true, true improvement in these rural districts until there is a better state system or funding mechanism.” [49:13, Trisha]
“Our criminal legal system has gotten so big, it impacts so many different parts of our lives, that we just need to bring it back to what it ought to be in my opinion, which is focused on community.” [50:36, Derwin]
05: What's Causing the Crisis in Maine's Public Defense System w/Justin Andrus
Meet Justin Andrus: Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services.
In this week’s episode, I speak with Justin about how he is massively improving the indigent defense system in the state of Maine.
Maine is unique because 100% of their public defenders are contract attorneys, but Justin makes it work.
You’ll learn the ins and outs of public defense in Maine. By knowing the true realities of the system, you’ll walk away feeling motivated to create change.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Problems in the Maine indigent system [6:00]
- Why Maine still has all contract attorneys [10:05]
- How The Great Resignation has affected Maine public defense [14:10]
- Why $80 per hour is still underpaying public defenders [16:05]
- The Lawyer of the Day system and why it doesn’t always work as intended [19:51]
- Partial indigence [35:05]
- What self-represented people should know [43:43]
- The problems with fines and fees [50:57]
Guests:
Justin Andrus, Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services
Resources:
Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services https://www.maine.gov/mcils/home
Sixth Amendment Center Report on Indigent Defense in Maine
Maine Monitor/ProPublica Report on the MCILS issues in the past
OPEGA Report on Finance Oversight Issues in MCILS
Reports mentioned at 7:42
Memorable Quotes:
“I do think that it is possible to have the structure that provides the necessary oversight and training and quality assurance for contracted attorneys.” (11:18, Justin)
“We need higher wages. Communicating how important it is and for people to understand how important it is that it’s the defendant who is harmed by this.” (19:26, Hunter)
“So the concept of partially indigent is maybe a misnomer. I agree. It doesn’t make a lot of sense on its face as a set of words.” (35:16. Justin)
“It isn’t this mortal combat between good and evil, as many people want it to be. It is individuals trying to do the best for the defendant, for the community, all of these things working in mind.” (38:15, Hunter)
“We are not a bunch of shady people helping evil doers be free to do more evil. And in fact, the vast majority of people accused of crimes are not evildoers at all.” (40:39, Justin)
“Society is safest when the most number of people are having their needs met.” (14:29, Justin)
“The first thing a self-represented defendant should know is don’t be self-represented if you could possibly avoid it.” (44:03, Justin)
04: Why is Public Defense Failing Nationwide? with David Carroll
04: Public Defense w/ David Carroll
This week, Executive Director of the Sixth Amendment Center, David Carroll walks us through how he got into public defense, the issues with public defense, and solutions that we can implement now.
You’ll learn the some the areas states continue to fail sixth amendment obligationa, the "the dirty little secret" of the American courtroom, and how the justice system can shift to support the public in this space.
Through David’s expert experience and unique perspective, you’ll get an inside view of the public defense system and the value of the sixth amendment being executed accurately.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
- Misdemeanor representation issues
- The impacts of excessive entanglement between judges and defenders
- Police officer’s role in court and being held accountable on trial
- The way to successfully campaign on public defense reform in a blue state or a red state
- The diversity of public defense between states.
- How failing to find Indigent Defense also harms our next generation
Guests:
David Carroll, Executive Director of the Sixth Amendment Center
Resources:
Sixth Amendment Center https://sixthamendment.org/
American Bar Association 10 Principles of Public Defense
Memorable Quotes:
“America's little secret is that thousands of people are processed into jail every day, without ever speaking to an attorney, this is almost exclusively, but not entirely in misdemeanor courts.” (8:42, David)
“At the core of our justice system is the idea that the state has a burden, which that word should mean something, a burden to prove your guilt with evidence.” (11:20, Hunter)
“There should be a lawyer with the client. There should be a lawyer in the courtroom… it clearly shows to me that these aren't defendants who simply don't want to show up in court.” (17:46, David)
“Criminal justice is probably the largest expenditure of government's money at the state and local level. And we're not getting the aims we want with no one's feeling any safer. In fact, you're probably ruining people's lives and not making them productive citizens” (25:25, David)
“People are trying to do good by their communities. 95% of the people I've met even if they're doing some really, really problematic things, got into government or criminal justice because they did want to serve their communities.” (42:16, David)
“People hear fines and fees and they go, well, it's better than jail.” (58:20, Hunter)
03: Texas Public Defense with James McDermott and Scott Ehlers
In a country that lacks legal representation for all, some people are fighting for change.
James McDermott, Chief Public Defender of Far West Texas, and Scott Ehlers, Director of Public Defense Improvement at the Texas Indigent Defense Commission, are two of those people.
In this group interview, James and Scott discuss the Texas Indigent Defense System and how they make a positive impact in their respective areas.
We uncover the barriers stopping people from receiving fair legal representation and even hear some heartwarming stories about clients that James and Scott represent.
If you want to dive deep into the complexities of the Texas Indigent Defense System and learn how you can help, this is the episode for you.
Key Topics and Takeaways
- What James and Scott do, and the role their offices play.
- Community outreach and support services within the Texas Indigent Defense System.
- Why the willingness for judges to work with public defenders is so important.
- The barriers stopping Texas from providing fair legal representation.
- The real price of public defense and why Texas has not allowed more state funding.
- Who the average client of a public defense office is.
- The importance of client-centered and holistic defense models.
Guests:
James McDermott, Chief Public Defender Far West Texas
Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
Scott Ehlers, Director of Public Defense Improvement, Texas Indigent Defense Commission
Texas Indigent Defense Commission
References
02: Why is it Common for People to be Held for a Year With No Attorney in Mississippi? w/Andre De Gruy
The Mississippi indictment process is known as the “black hole.” But out of that darkness comes some light: Andre De Gruy, State Public Defender of Mississippi.
This week, Andre walks us through how he opened the first state public defender trial office in Mississippi and the reality of public defense in that state.
You’ll learn why change within the Mississippi public defense system is so difficult and how Andre has been working to change that story.
Through Andre’s expert experience and unique perspective, you’ll get an inside view of the Mississippi legal system and why funding is so hard to come by.
Key Topics and Takeaways
- The history of Mississippi public defense.
- The financial reality of the Mississippi legislature.
- The incremental approach and if it’s the most effective way.
- How the public defender office was created and what it’s designed to do.
- Why there is opposition from the judges for state funding.
- The conditions of the Mississippi Department of Corrections.
- The Michigan Model.
- Criminal reinvestment.
Where You Can Find Andre De Gruy, State Public Defender of Mississippi
Mississippi Office of the State Public Defender
References
Office of the State Public Defender
Sixth Amendment Center Report 2017
01: Public Defense 101
If you are new to Public Defenseless or the topic of public defense, here’s where you should start!
In this special solo episode, host Hunter Parnell introduces himself, describes the background of this podcast, and shares everything you need to know about public defense before listening.
No matter how much you know about public defense, Hunter’s wise insight and gift for explaining complex topics in an easy-to-understand way will leave you with fresh knowledge to walk away with.
By listening, you’ll learn that the public defense industry is a lot more complicated than you may believe, and why it’s so important that everyone has access to legal representation.
One thing’s for sure: after listening to this episode, you’ll view public defense from an entirely new perspective.
Key Topics and Takeaways
- Who the host is and his background in public defense.
- The podcast’s purpose and why it was started.
- The history of public defense.
- Why public defense is an important and ethical obligation.
- Public defense definitions you need to know.
- Why not all people get the legal representation they need.
- The future of public defense.
Resources:
“Federal Poverty Level (FPL) - HealthCare.gov Glossary.” HealthCare.gov. US Government, 2021
All of the Cases the say when people are required to have an attorney
28.United States v. Cronic, 466 U.S. 648 (1984)
29.Powell v. Alabama, 387 U.S. 45, 57 (1932)
30.Massiah v. United States, 377 U.S. 201 (1964); Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 444-45 (1966); Brewer v. Williams, 430 U.S. 387, 399 (1977)
31.Coleman v. Alabama, 399 U.S. 1, 9-10 (1970)
32.United States v. Wade, 388 U.S. 218, 236-38 (1967); Moore v. Illinois, 434 U.S. 220, 231 (1977); Kirby v. Illinois, 406 U.S. 682, 689-90 (1972)
33.McMann v. Richardson, 397 U.S. 759, 771, 771 n.14 (1970); Lafler v. Cooper, 566 U.S. ___, No. 10-209 at 3-4 (March 21, 2012); Padilla v. Kentucky, 559 U.S. ___, No. 08-651 at 16 (March 31, 2010)
34.Hamilton v. Alabama, 368 U.S. 52 (1961)
35.Brewer v. Williams, 430 U.S. 387, 398-399 (1977); Powell v. Alabama, 387 U.S. 45, 57 (1932)
36.Gideon v. Wainwright, 372 U.S. 335, 344-45 (1963); Argersinger v. Hamlin, 407 U.S. 25, 37, 40 (1972); Alabama v. Shelton, 535 U.S. 654, 662 (2002); and In re Gault, 387 U.S. 1, 36-37 (1967)
37.Lafler v. Cooper, 566 U.S. ___, No. 10-209 at 6 (March 21, 2012); Glover v. United States, 531 U.S. 198, 203-204 (2001); Mempa v. Rhay, 389 U.S. 128 (1967); and Wiggins v. Smith, 539 U.S. 510, 538 (2003).
38.Douglas v. California, 372 U.S. 353, 357 (1963); and Halbert v. Michigan, 545 U.S. 605, 621 (2005)
39.Gagnon v. Scarpelli, 411 U.S. 778, 790 (1973)
40.Morrissey v. Brewer, 408 U.S. 471, 489 (1972)
41.Johnson v. Zerbst, 304 U.S. 458, 464 (1938); United States v. Ruiz, 536 U.S. 622, 629 (2002); Iowa v. Tovar, 541 U.S. 77 (2004)
Welcome to Public Defenseless
Anyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal justice system is broken, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
Like so many of you, Hunter is not an attorney, simply tired of a news cycle and talking heads that offer no real solutions to the ever-growing list of problems we face. Hunter hopes that with this information, you will share his belief that ordinary people still can make a difference.
Fler poddar
Podcasten Public Defenseless är skapad av Hunter Parnell. Podcastens innehåll och bilderna på den här sidan hämtas med hjälp av det offentliga podcastflödet (RSS).
En liten tjänst av I'm With Friends. Finns även på engelska.