We Have More Work To Do with Tim Banks

Matty talks with Tim Banks a year after their November 2020 conversation, Breaking Down Gates, recorded around the end of 2021. Tim has changed jobs and now works at the Duckbill Group, and Matty has moved to Pulumi. They revisit what they predicted, and range over the Great Resignation, remote work, who gets hired where, and how to make conferences more inclusive. The cold open is Tim: "Far be it for me to say like I have all the answers. I mostly have questions."

The Great Resignation

Matty notes that last time they hoped the pandemic was nearly over, and that devopsdays Chicago skipped 2021, the first year without one since it began. Matty hoped organizations wouldn't go back to the old way, and sees some insisting on it, with people not putting up with it. Tim says they'd both predicted that the second people felt comfortable leaving jobs where they were mistreated they would, and they have: people quit and figure it out later, or go to employers who treated people well, and the leverage is with employees now.

Tim says most companies "survived" and didn't thrive, because culture didn't change for remote work. Managers demanded Slack presence and cameras on, and couldn't manage people instead of overseeing them. Burnout and bad management are the leading drivers of quitting, and "retention problems" are a lagging indicator. If you can't staff positions, Tim says, "that is a you problem that you created." Matty adds that culture is a reflection of the behaviors of the people there, and that many leaders have not really tried remote work, since people working from dining tables during a pandemic isn't remote work. Tim says bad management "knows no industry" and may not be malicious, since a great in-person manager can become a poor one when circumstances change. Tim also says companies claiming you can't do culture from a bedroom can change the culture, because technology drives cultural change.

Who's Pushing People Back

Tim says the pandemic stripped away distractions, leaving "just you and your shitty job and your shitty manager," and that remote hiring let people apply anywhere. Matty asks about traditional enterprises like banks, insurance and manufacturing. Tim calls the Bay Area's mystique dubious and says the pandemic showed talent is everywhere, so influence can decentralize, though money remains concentrated there. Tim says older, risk-averse industries and managers whose careers were built on overseeing people directly are the ones pushing people back, along with real estate commitments, and that pushing people back is how you tell a tech company from a company that uses tech. Matty says most tech workers are at traditional companies, and that people on this podcast forget how small a sliver of the industry works in newer ways. Tim distinguishes tech workers from the tech industry, such as Home Depot's retail versus e-commerce sides, and says the disparity drives people away. Matty calls this bimodal IT, which Matty doesn't think is a good way to run an organization.

Why People Leave

Matty describes public-sector leaders who accept that someone might stay only a couple of years, and says a great manager says "you've outgrown this team." Tim, who worked in government contracting, says people in some public-sector jobs are incentivized to stagnate technologically, like protecting a platform you've certified in for decades. Tim says people used to leave for raises, and now they leave to not hate their job, and the only reasons to stay are the money, the job and the manager. Matty shares stories of old systems nobody knows the purpose of and is afraid to turn off, and Tim says people are still patching COBOL. Matty says whatever you're running, you're doing good work.

Making Conferences Inclusive

Tim is glad KubeCon North America 2022 is in Detroit and asks conference organizers to stop picking expensive places like the Bay Area, New York, Napa and Lake Tahoe. Tim wonders why events don't use spaces at historically Black colleges, such as those near the devopsdays Austin venue or in Atlanta or DC, and says virtual conferences let Tim talk to more people than ever, and "I don't want to give that up." Matty agrees it should be both, not just hybrid, since All Day DevOps has always been virtual, and some people prefer virtual for accessibility reasons. Matty says diversity of organizers matters because they may not know about those facilities, and venues are often repeated because "we've done it there before." It's too late for devopsdays Chicago 2022 because a contract is signed, but Matty commits to keep working on it.

Tim says ticket prices could be lower and sponsors could pay for plane tickets, hotel rooms or childcare facilities, and organizers should talk to neurodivergent people, parents and people who can't get days off. Matty says many devopsdays could be run fully sponsor-funded, and that free tickets should not require people to justify why they need one: a checkbox saying "my employer doesn't pay for this" is enough. Tim says having done it, being asked to justify is demeaning. Tim says the industry is more inclusive than it's ever been, which has allowed harder conversations about technology and how workers are treated, but "if you look out in that audience and it doesn't look like something you would consider inclusive, then you have more work to do."

Tim is @ElCheffe on Twitter and at the Duckbill Group.

Breaking Down Gates with Tim Banks (previous episode with Tim)