The Lawfare Podcast

For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Tanvi Madan, a Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution, to discuss the April 22 terrorist attack in Kashmir. Madan explains how the crisis has evolved, the escalation options available to India, and the limited influence of the United States, China, and other powers to contain the crisis.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Molly Reynolds and James Pearce to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Rounding the ‘Feels Like It’s Been a Century’ Mark.” As President Trump comes to the end of his second first 100 days in office, he and his supporters are laying claim to FDR’s mantle as the president to accomplish the most in such a short period of time. But how much success has Trump really had in enacting his broader policy agenda? How should we be seeing Trump’s administration as it rounds this milestone?
• “The Art of the Appeal.” More than three months into his second term in the White House, President Trump has clearly embraced a new legal strategy: antagonistic towards the courts, aggressive in its claims of presidential power, and more than willing to run to the Supreme Court for validation. But so far that validation has been slow to come, and there are signs that even some judges appointed by Trump are growing weary and wary of his tactics. How successful is Trump’s legal strategy proving? Could an alternative be more effective?
• “DOGE-ing a Bullet.” A new report from the minority staff of the Senate’s permanent subcommittee on investigations claims that Elon Musk’s involvement in the Trump administration and his role in dismantling federal agencies could save his various companies billions in regulatory costs and other potential liabilities. Is this a clear conflict of interest? Or does this report reflect other factors in play?

In object lessons, Molly had a mighty craic in happening upon Blue Lights, a police procedural set in Belfast, and urges you to give it a lash. Scott, hailing victory and fighting for Old DC, cheered the thought of a new RFK Stadium. And James encouraged listeners to maki their way over to a local Japanese restaurant, where the sushi isn’t the only thing rolled.

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Andrew Bakaj, Chief Legal Counsel at Whistleblower Aid, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss a declaration by a National Labor Relations Board employee Daniel Berulis that DOGE facilitated the exfiltration of potentially sensitive information to external sources. The two also analyze the merits of whistleblower protections more generally.

Read more about the declaration here: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/15/nx-s1-5355896/doge-nlrb-elon-musk-spacex-security

For a copy of the letter penned by several members of Congress, go here: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/24/nx-s1-5375118/congress-doge-nlrb-whistleblower

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In today’s episode, Molly Reynolds, Senior Fellow at Brookings and Senior Editor at Lawfare, sits down with Matt Lawrence, Associate Professor of Law at Emory; Eloise Pasachoff, Professor of Law at Georgetown; and Zach Price, Professor of Law at UC Law San Francisco to discuss a new paper on “Appropriations Presidentialism,” or how the executive branch attempts to control the process of allocating federal funds at the expense of Congress. They cover the history of the Congress, the president, and the courts in this area; what the Trump administration is doing that is different from what we’ve seen in the past; and what might come next in the multitude of current litigation on these issues.

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In a live conversation on April 25, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Scott Anderson, and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Legal Fellow James Pearce, and Lawfare Contributor Preston Marquis to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including the arrest of a Wisconsin state judge by the Department of Homeland Security, the Alien Enemy Act removal cases, the ban on transgender service members in the military, and more.

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From April 11, 2022: The period after Watergate and President Nixon's resignation saw an unprecedented barrage of congressional efforts at reforming the executive branch. The period after Donald Trump's departure from office has seen no comparable spree of legislative action—at least not yet. In a recent Lawfare article, Quinta Jurecic and Andrew Kent explored the disparity and the reasons for it, and they analyzed whether any of the legislative reforms that have been so far proposed have any prospect of passage. They joined Benjamin Wittes to talk about why things are so different today than they were in the late 1970s, what happened in that period and whether Congress will actually be able to do anything now.

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From September 16, 2020: What is the proper relationship between the CIA director and the president? How should directors handle arguably illegal orders? How important is the director's role as the nation's honest broker of information during times of crisis?

To get at these questions, David Priess sat down with Chris Whipple, a documentary filmmaker, journalist and the author of two books about the people around the president. "The Gatekeepers," based upon his documentary of the same name, examines White House chiefs of staff, and his new book, "The Spymasters: How the CIA Directors Shape History and the Future," is based on the Showtime documentary "The Spymasters: CIA in the Crosshairs," for which Whipple was the writer and executive producer. They talked about CIA directors through the last several decades and how they've impacted U.S. history and national security.

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For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Michael Sulmeyer, who was the top Defense official for all aspects of cyber policy in the Biden administration. Sulmeyer discusses the cyber threat landscape, different roles and missions, how Artificial Intelligence might be leveraged, and the key role of allies in cyberdefense, among other issues.

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On today’s episode, Julia Rose Kraut, author of the book “Threat of Dissent: A History of Ideological Exclusion and Deportation in the United States,” joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk about that book, originally published in 2020, and how it can help us make sense of the Trump administration’s recent immigration and deportation policies. 

They discussed how ideological exclusions and deportations present a unique intersection of immigration and First Amendment legal doctrine and precedent, the chilling effect these policies have on constitutionally protected political speech, and the recent case of Columbia University graduate student Mahmoud Khalil.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Anna Bower, Tyler McBrien, and Kevin Frazier to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Aliens vs. Predators.” Despite forceful legal pushback—including by the U.S. Supreme Court—the Trump administration is working hard to continue its campaign to remove foreign aliens it accuses of pursuing a “predatory incursion” from the country using the Alien Enemies Act. How far will it go? And to what extent can the courts (or anyone else) stop them?
• “Aye Aye Robot.” Both the Biden and Trump administrations were fans of artificial intelligence (AI) and set out policies to incorporate it into government decision-making. But while the Biden administration focused much of its efforts on guardrails, the Trump administration has increasingly torn them down as part of a broader push to incorporate the nascent technology into government decision-making. What are the risks and potential benefits of this sort of government by AI? 
• “For Pete’s Sake.” Beleaguered Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth is more beleaguered than ever this week, after reports that, in addition to inadvertently sharing classified secrets with Atlantic reporter Jeffrey Goldberg, he also passed them to his wife, brother, and personal lawyer on another Signal thread. Meanwhile, a former adviser (and established Trump loyalist) went public with allegations that Hegseth’s management has led to chaos at the Defense Department and called for his resignation. Will this be enough for the Trump administration to cut bait and run? Or does his support in the MAGAsphere simply run too deep?

In object lessons, Tyler, fresh from biking adventures abroad, hyped the routes, photos, and resources on bikepacking.com, if physical exertion is your idea of relaxation. Anna, finding other ways to relax, came to the defense of The Big Short in helping to soothe her anxiety amid more current market upheaval. Doubling down on the “no relaxation without tension” theme, Scott’s outie binge-watched Severance while on vacation. And Kevin, very on-brand, was quick to bring us a feel-good story of a new community partnership to support AI skill-building in Austin-based nonprofits. 

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On today's episode, Mikhail Zygar, a renowned Russian journalist living in exile in the U.S., the author of multiple books on Vladimir Putin, and the author of The Last Pioneer substack, joined Lawfare Associate Editor Olivia Manes to discuss his experience as the founder of one of the last independent Russian media channels, TV Rain. They talked about the incentives underlying Putin's actions in Ukraine, how the Russian president has clamped down on independent journalism, global disillusionment with liberal democracy, and more.

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Chris Hughes, author of “Marketcrafters” and co-founder of the Economic Security Project, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss his book and its implications at a time of immense economic uncertainty and political upheaval. The duo explore several important historical case studies that Chris suggests may have lessons worth heeding in the ongoing struggle to direct markets toward the public good.

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On April 18 at 4 pm ET, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Roger Parloff and Lawfare Legal Fellow James Pearce to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including Judge Boasberg's finding of probable cause for contempt in the Alien Enemies Act case.

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From January 26, 2021: Jack Goldsmith sat down with Michael McConnell, the Richard and Frances Mallery Professor and director of the Constitutional Law Center at Stanford Law School, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and the author of the new book, "The President Who Would Not Be King: Executive Power Under the Constitution." They discussed McConnell's textual historical approach to interpreting presidential power under Article II of the U.S. Constitution, the many novel elements of executive power embodied in Article II and the proper understanding of Article II's Vesting Clause. They also talked about contemporary implications of Michael's reading of Article II for war powers, the unitary executive and late impeachments.

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From March 6, 2023: Amichai Cohen and Yuval Shany are both Israeli legal scholars and longtime Lawfare contributors. Shany is a professor of international law at the Hebrew University Law School in Jerusalem. Cohen is a professor at Ono Academic College. They are both scholars at the Israel Democracy Institute, and together they are also co-authors of a six-part series in Lawfare about the ongoing effort by the Israeli government to alter the Israeli judicial system. It is a detailed account of a very serious reform operation in Israel, one that the authors argue is dangerous. They joined Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to discuss the ongoing protests in Israel, the ongoing legislative efforts, and the history of the Israeli judicial system and its growing power that has led to this crisis.

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In recent weeks, President Trump has embarked on a campaign of extortion against law firms, pushing major firms to either reach agreements with the White House or face executive orders in retribution. A number of major firms have chosen to negotiate—agreeing to deals that are already under pressure as the White House seeks to extract more. Four firms—Perkins Coie, Jenner & Block, WilmerHale, and Susman Godfrey—have chosen to fight retaliatory executive orders in court and have secured temporary restraining orders against the administration. 

John Keker and Bob Van Nest joined the podcast to discuss these events. They’re partners at the firm Keker, Van Nest & Peters, and—along with their fellow partner Elliot Peters—published an op-ed in the New York Times urging law firms to stand up for themselves. In conversation with Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic, they discussed why the Trump administration’s efforts pose such a threat to the rule of law and shared their insights into the dynamics inside law firms right now, what pressures might move a firm to capitulate, and what the firms that have chosen to fight are risking in the process.

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On April 15, Judge Paula Xinis held a hearing in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the man deported by accident to a notorious prison in El Salvador. Lawfare Senior Editors Roger Parloff and Anna Bower covered the hearing live and debriefed on it with Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes immediately afterwards.

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The Supreme Court recently held oral arguments in the case of Mexico v. Smith & Wesson, a groundbreaking case brought by the government of Mexico that seeks to hold U.S. gun manufacturers accountable for cartels' use of American weapons to perpetrate violence in Mexico. On today's episode, Executive Editor Natalie Orpett talked with Jonathan Lowy, an attorney at Global Action on Gun Violence, who represents the government of Mexico in the suit, and Chantal Flores, a freelance journalist who has focused on Mexican cartels and has written about the case. They discussed the flow of U.S.-made guns into Mexico, how it relates to cartel violence, and the complicated legal and policy context around Mexico’s case.

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Daniel Kokotajlo, former OpenAI researcher and Executive Director of the AI Futures Project, and Eli Lifland, a researcher with the AI Futures Project, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss what AI may look like in 2027. The trio explore a report co-authored by Daniel that dives into the hypothetical evolution of AI over the coming years. This novel report has already elicited a lot of attention with some reviewers celebrating its creativity and others questioning its methodology. Daniel and Eli tackle that feedback and help explain the report’s startling conclusion—that superhuman AI will develop within the next decade.

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In a live conversation on April 11, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Legal Fellow James Pearce, and Lawfare contributor James Pearce to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including the April 11 hearing on the removal of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Supreme Court’s decisions in Abrego Garcia’s case and the Alien Enemies Act case, the targeting of law firms, and more.

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From May 16, 2023: In recent years, the Supreme Court's non-merits “shadow docket” has become a topic of contestation and controversy, especially the Court's emergency orders rulings on issues ranging from immigration to abortion to Covid-19 restrictions.

To discuss these issues, Jack Goldsmith sat down with Stephen Vladeck, the Charles Alan Wright Chair in Federal Courts at the University of Texas School of Law, who is the author of a new book entitled, “The Shadow Docket: How the Supreme Court Uses Stealth Rulings to Amass Power and Undermine the Republic.” They discussed the origins of the contemporary shadow docket in some 1973 emergency orders related to the bombing of Cambodia, why the Court’s shadow docket has grown in prominence in recent years, what's wrong with the shadow docket, and how to fix it.

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From March 8, 2024: The practice of surveillance capitalism—the widespread private collection and commodification of personal data—is well understood. Less well understood is the extent to which the U.S. government purchases this data in the commercial marketplace to use it for intelligence and law enforcement purposes. 

Byron Tau, when he was a reporter with The Wall Street Journal, did more than anyone to bring this practice to public light. Jack Goldsmith sat down recently with Tau to discuss his new book on the topic, “Means of Control: How the Hidden Alliance of Tech and Government is Creating a New American Surveillance State.” They discussed how the private broker market works, why the government is able to purchase bulk private data with relatively few legal restrictions, and the threat to privacy and civil liberties that inheres in the practice. They also discussed why this form of data is so important to the government and the prospects for reform of the relatively unregulated practice.

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For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Tom Karako, the Director of the Missile Defense Program at CSIS, to discuss the Trump administration's missile defense proposals known as "Golden Dome." Karako explains the purpose of Golden Dome, its feasibility and cost, the likely reactions of China and Russia, and what realistic success would look like.

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This week, Scott sat down with co-hosts emeritus Benjamin Wittes, Quinta Jurecic and Lawfare's new senior legal fellow James Pearce to talk through the week's biggest national security news stories, including:

• “Midnight Planes Going Anywhere.” The Supreme Court has weighed in on the Trump administration’s decision to quickly fly dozens of Venezuelan nationals to El Salvador with little to no meaningful process, holding that those detained had to be provided notice and an opportunity to challenge their removal, but only through habeas in their place of detention. Meanwhile, we are still awaiting the Court’s final decision on whether a lower court can direct the executive branch to seek the return of another man who was removed to El Salvador by mistake. What will these decisions mean for the Trump administration’s aggressive deportation policies?
• “All the King’s Horses and All the King’s Men, Won’t Be Able to Put Humphrey’s Together Again.” Watchers of the D.C. Circuit may have suffered whiplash this week, as an appellate panel reversed a district court’s conclusion that the Trump administration’s removal of statutorily protected members of the Merit Service Protection Board and National Labor Review Board was most likely unlawful, only for the panel itself to be reversed in short order by the whole en banc court. The issues now seem clearly poised for review by the Supreme Court. Is Humphrey’s Executor and other case law preserving independent agencies toast? Or might the Court stop short of killing independent agencies altogether?
• “A Duty of Pander.” Attorney General Pam Bondi punished a Justice Department attorney this week after he admitted to a federal court that he had not been provided adequate answers to some of the court’s questions. It’s the latest in a parade of disciplinary actions accusing attorneys of disloyalty for engaging in candor with the federal courts over the confusion that some of the Trump administration’s policies have caused. Is the Attorney General within her rights to crack down on these actions? And what impact will her demand for loyalty have on the Justice Department’s relationship with the federal courts?

For object lessons, Quinta recommended the movie "Margin Call" as a reflection on the last financial crisis, as we prepare for the next one. Ben brought attention to Russia's brutal and inhumane attack on a children's playground in Ukrainian President Volodmyr Zelensky's hometown of Kryvi Rih, which underscores just how committed Russia really is to peace. Scott shared his latest home pizza discovery—a one hour no-knead recipe for pan pizza crust from King Arthur's Baking—as well as his next experiment: an all edge pieces pan pizza. And James gave a double-header object lesson, sharing his participation in the Baker to Vegas footrace and his reading of another story about something even more inhuman: Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

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On today's episode, Executive Editor Natalie Orpett spoke with Tara Varma, a fellow at the Brookings Institution, about the latest in French politics. On March 31, far-right leader Marine Le Pen was convicted of embezzlement and banned from politics, though polling showed her in the lead for the 2027 presidential elections. In the last few weeks, current French president Emmanuel Macron has been carving out a place for French leadership amidst the upheaval in Europe’s relationship with the United States. Meanwhile, the push to build European defense capacity—and Trump’s new tariffs—are raising a lot of complicated questions.

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Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey spoke to Director of the Center for Climate Security Erin Sikorsky about the omission of climate change from the Annual Threat Assessment, Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard’s testimony in front of Congress, and the national security risks of climate change.

Read Sikorsky’s article here.

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For today’s episode, Lawfare General Counsel and Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Lawfare Contributing Editor Peter Harrell, who was previously Senior Director for International Economics on the National Security Council, and Professor Jennifer Hillman of the Georgetown University Law Center, a former member of the WTO’s appellate body and senior U.S. trade official, to discuss the new global tariffs that President Trump imposed last week and the legal fight that is beginning to emerge over them.

Together, they discussed how dramatic a break the Trump administration’s policies are from past practice, the logic behind them (or lack thereof), and whether his use of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA) to impose them will really survive judicial scrutiny.

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In a live conversation on April 4, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Legal Fellow James Pearce, and Georgetown professor Steve Vladeck to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including the deportation of individuals to an El Salvador prison, the federal funding freeze, the targeting of law firms, and more.

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From January 26, 2024: In front of a live audience at the Knight Foundation's INFORMED conference in Miami, Florida, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke with Hon. Kenneth L. Wainstein, Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis at the Department of Homeland Security; Jameel Jaffer, Executive Director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University; and Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic about government surveillance of open source social media.

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From March 20, 2024: Since World War II, the United States and its currency, the dollar, have come to play a central role in the broader global economy. And in recent decades, policymakers have used this role as a weapon, cutting off access to malign actors and punishing those who act contrary to U.S. national security interests. But cultivating such primacy has proven to be a double-edged sword, with more complicated ramifications for many Americans. 

In her new book “Paper Soldiers: How the Weaponization of the Dollar Changed the World Order,” Bloomberg reporter Saleha Mohsin digs into the history of the dollar’s role in the global economy and what its increasing weaponization may mean moving forward. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson recently joined Mohsin to discuss her new book and what we should all know about the new economic and political moment we are living through. 

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Hillary Hartley, the former Chief Digital Officer of Ontario and former Co-Founder and Deputy Executive Director at 18F, and David Eaves, Associate Professor of Digital Government and Co-Deputy Director of the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose at University College London, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the recent closure of 18F, a digital unit within the GSA focused on updating and enhancing government technological systems and public-facing digital services. Hillary and David also published a recent Lawfare article on this topic, “Learning from the Legacy of 18F.”

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For today’s episode, we’re bringing you the opening episode of our podcast Escalation. Escalation is a multi-part narrative podcast hosted by Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien and Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina. Escalation lays bare the stakes of the Russo-Ukrainian War through powerful storytelling and compelling voices. It reveals forgotten promises and fragile alliances that have shaped the U.S.-Ukraine relationship and how the decisions of policymakers in Washington, Kyiv, and Moscow have global consequences.

In Episode One: Chicken Kiev: The world watches the Cold War end and the Soviet Union break apart. And after centuries of Russian rule, Ukrainians may soon have their independence back. But in Washington, there’s fear that that independence could actually make the world more dangerous.

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This week, Scott joined his Lawfare colleagues Natalie Orpett and Eric Ciaramella to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “In Mother Russia, Sometimes Bear Poke You.” Discussions over a possible broader ceasefire in Ukraine—beyond the temporary (and limited) energy and Black Sea ceasefire agreements last week—appear to have ground to a halt over Russian demands. Many observers suspect this is simply a stalling technique by Russian President Vladimir Putin, as Russia prepares for another offensive intended to improve his negotiating leverage. President Trump, meanwhile, in a rare swipe at the Russian dictator, has said he’s “pissed off.” But will Trump bring leverage to bear enough for Putin to budge? Or are the ceasefire negotiations like to stay stuck in the mud—and, if so, will Trump know who to blame?
• “Nuukin’ Futs.” Vice President J.D. Vance visited the northernmost U.S. military base in Greenland last week and delivered a speech in front of U.S. service members that accused Denmark of neglecting its Greenland protectorate and failing to adequately protect it from China and Russia—shortcomings that, in his telling, justify President Trump’s stated intent to gain U.S. control over the island nation. Is there any truth to Vance’s allegations? And will his remarks help or hurt the Trump administration’s purported objective of securing Greenland and improving U.S. access to its various resources? 
• “Third Term’s the Charm.” In an interview this week, President Trump insisted to reporters that he was serious about potentially pursuing a third term and suggested that there were “methods” by which he could do so, in spite of the 22nd Amendment’s two-term limitation on presidents. How seriously should we take his threat? Are there arguments that could carry water — and will it matter?

In object lessons, Natalie—tire-d of DC traffic—“spoke” highly of her beloved ebike. Scott, flying solo in NYC, curled up with his Kindle at Amor y Amargo, contemplating the question: how many Amaros does it take to make the perfect Sazerac? And Eric praised “Language City: The Fight to Preserve Endangered Mother Tongues in New York,” by Ross Perlin—a fascinating portrait of linguistic diversity and the fight to preserve it.

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Atul Gawande is a surgeon and a public health expert. He's also the former head of global health at the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), an agency that the Trump administration has prioritized for dismantling since its first day in office. On today's episode, Executive Editor Natalie Orpett sat down with Gawande to discuss what USAID does, the consequences of destroying it, and why public health is so important to U.S. national security.

Editor's Note: This episode was recorded on March 27, 2025. The following day, the Trump administration announced that USAID would be dissolved by the end of this fiscal year. 

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Adam Thierer, Senior Fellow for the Technology & Innovation team at R Street, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the UT Austin School of Law and a Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to review public comments submitted in response to the Office of Science and Technology Policy’s Request for Information on the AI Action Plan. The pair summarize their own comments and explore those submitted by major labs and civil society organizations. They also dive into recent developments in the AI regulatory landscape, including a major veto by Governor Youngkin in Virginia.

Readings discussed:

• Kevin on Vance’s America First, America Only Approach to AI
• Keegan and Adam on AI Safety Treatises 
• Kevin on Proposed Firings at NIST
• Dean and Alan on Preemption

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On March 28, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes will sit down with Lawfare Senior Editors Scott Anderson, Anna Bower, and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Contributing Editor James Pearce, and former ACLU National Legal Director David Cole to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including the deportation of individuals under the Alien Enemies Act, the detention of Mahmoud Khalil, and the targeting of law firms.

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From January 30, 2024: U.S. military operations against Houthi rebels in Yemen have escalated rapidly in recent weeks, culminating in a number of major strikes aimed at degrading their ability to threaten Red Sea shipping traffic. But the war powers reports the Biden administration has provided to Congress are raising questions about how it is legally justifying this latest military campaign. 

To discuss the burgeoning conflict in Yemen and what it might mean for war powers, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Brian Finucane, Senior Adviser at the Crisis Group; Lawfare Co-founder and Harvard Law School Professor Jack Goldsmith; and Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck. They talked about their recent pieces on the topic, what we know and don’t know about the administration’s legal theory, and what the law might mean for how the conflict evolves moving forward. 

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From April 22, 2021: Jack Goldsmith sat down with Lee Bollinger, the president of Columbia University, and Geoffrey Stone, the Edward H. Levy Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago Law School, to discuss their new book, "National Security, Leaks and Freedom of the Press: The Pentagon Papers Fifty Years On." They discussed the holding and legacy of the Pentagon Papers case, as well as some of the many challenges of applying the Pentagon Papers regime in the modern digital era that is characterized by massive leaks and a very different press landscape than the one that prevailed in 1971.

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For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Natan Sachs, the Director of the Middle East Program of the Brookings Institution, to discuss Israel's turbulent domestic situation and the renewal of the conflicts in Gaza and Lebanon. Sachs explains Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's political tactics, the controversies over the budget, judicial reform and the resulting protests, and the sacking of figures like Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar. Sachs also discusses why Israel has decided to renew operations in Gaza and Lebanon and why strikes on Iran are more likely than in the past. 

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes and Roger Parloff to talk through the week of the most Rational Security-esque of national security news stories ever, including: 

• “Oopsec.” In a strong contender for the most ridiculous national security story of the year, senior Trump administration officials appear to have planned a series of airstrikes in Yemen that took place earlier this month through the social messaging app Signal—and they appear to have included The Atlantic’s Editor-in-Chief Jeffrey Goldberg by mistake, giving him access to detailed war plans and internal policy discussions that he has now (mostly) made public. How irresponsible were the Trump administration’s actions? And what will the consequences be of this mistake?
• “Secrets, Lies, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.” The Trump administration employed the Alien Enemies Act to remove alleged members of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua to a notorious prison in El Salvador last week, just before or perhaps just after (a point of ongoing inquiry) an order from a federal district court judge directed them not to. And now the Trump administration is invoking the state secrets privilege to avoid having to disclose more details regarding its policy choices. How firm is the legal ground that the Trump administration is operating on? And how will the courts handle it? 
• “How Do You Think We Keep These Shoes So White?” Leading white shoe law firm Paul, Weiss kissed the feet—or perhaps licked the boots—of President Trump this week in an effort to escape the highly discriminatory sanctions Trump recently imposed on them for their past ties with a lawyer who worked with the prosecution in his New York criminal case. What could their acquiescence mean for big law? And the legal industry more generally?

In object lessons, Roger is unwinding from court documents in English by diving into Walter Isaacson’s “Elon Musk” in French—because nothing says relaxation like a billionaire’s biography en français. Scott revisited his college years, reminded of Bob Dylan’s live 1966 performance of “The Royal Albert Hall Concert” after watching A Complete Unknown (pro tip: never leave a pile of axes at a folk festival). And Ben pleads with “the algorithm” to stop assuming he needs weapons disguised as mobility devices.

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In a live recording on March 26, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Shane Harris of The Atlantic to discuss the decision to release the text messages sent by Trump administration officials in the Houthi PC Small Group Signal group chat which accidentally included The Atlantic Editor-in-Chief Jeffrey Goldberg, testimony given in Congress by officials who were in the chat, and what accountability may look like.

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Shane Harris of The Atlantic joins Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to talk about war planning on Signal, the Trump administration’s remarkable security lapse, and the testimony of the country’s intelligence chiefs that came in its wake.

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Tom Kent ran Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and is a longtime Russia watcher. He talks to Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes about President Trump’s executive order dismantling Voice of America and Radio Free Europe.

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On March 21, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Roger Parloff to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including DOGE’s incursions on the U.S. Institute of Peace, the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act, and the firing of probationary employees.

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From March 21, 2023: By many accounts, the United States is living through a new era of competition—not just between major powers and strategic rivals, but between ideologies. Around the world, many authoritarian governments seem to be on the rise, even as many liberal democracies are facing a crisis of confidence, including, by some accounts, here in the United States.

In a new book entitled, “Defeating the Dictators,” Charles Dunst, a former journalist and current deputy director of research and analytics at The Asia Group, lays out what he sees as the right strategy for making democracies more effective and defeating the appeal of authoritarian government. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with him to discuss his new book, the importance he places on Singapore as a case study, and how the domestic remedies he focuses on translate into foreign policy.

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From May 9, 2023: Since March 2022, El Salvador has been under a state of exception as its President Nayib Bukele seeks to crack down on the country’s powerful gangs. Bukele, who once described himself on Twitter as the “world’s coolest dictator,” has engaged in a prolonged attack on El Salvador’s democratic institutions. And the crackdown has resulted in a range of human rights abuses. At the same time, Bukele really does seem to have been successful in curbing gang violence, and his popularity is sky high. 

To understand the situation in El Salvador, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic spoke with Manuel Meléndez-Sánchez, a PhD candidate in Political Science at Harvard University who has written about Bukele on Lawfare. They discussed why Bukele’s crackdown on the gangs seems to be working, why it might fall apart in the long term, and what Bukele’s rise means for democracy in El Salvador and around the world.

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For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Gregory Johnsen, a non-resident fellow at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington, D.C. Johnsen explains the rationale of the Trump administration's decision to bomb Yemen but argues that it will have little effect on the Houthis. Indeed, Johnsen contends that the Houthis are spoiling for a fight with the United States and Israel, believing that this will generate support within Yemen that will help them increase their power.

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Dan Hendrycks, Director of the Center for AI Safety, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the UT Austin School of Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss his recent paper (co-authored with former Google CEO Eric Schmidt and Scale AI CEO Alexandr Wang), “Superintelligence Strategy.”

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This week, Scott sat down with Rational Security veterans and Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes and Molly Reynolds to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “House Odds.” Speaker of the House Mike Johnson scored an unlikely win last week, when he kept the narrow (and notoriously fractious) Republican house majority united enough to pass its own continuing resolution to keep the government open—and then successfully got enough Democrats to acquiesce to debate on it for it to pass through the Senate without amendment. What does this tell us about the current dynamics in Congress—and what the Democratic minority in either chamber might realistically hope to achieve moving forward?
• “This Pressure Goes to Eleven.” The Trump administration amped up military operations in the Middle East this week, taking out a senior ISIS leader in Iraq, pursuing an aggressive set of airstrikes against the Houthis in Yemen, and greenlighting a renewal of Israeli hostilities in Gaza, seemingly ending the weeks-long ceasefire that had prevailed there. The common thread across all three sets of action seems to be Iran, a regime that the Trump administration has both socked with a return of maximum pressure sanctions and sought to engage on possible negotiations over its nuclear program. Is this new maximum maximum-pressure campaign likely to work? What risks and benefits does it present?
• “Saying the Quiet Part Incredibly Loud and at Length.” President Trump gave an unprecedented speech at the Justice Department last week, where he spent over an hour misrepresenting the criminal cases that had been made against him prior to his rising to the presidency and naming specific individuals as enemies who he indicated should be arrested. What motivated his address? And what will it mean for the campaign of vengeance he is slowly rolling out against his perceived political enemies?

In object lessons, Molly momentarily set aside her usual evangelism for regional NPR-affiliate podcasts to champion Good Politics/Bad Politics, a Substack deep-dive into U.S. elections and governance by Jonathan Bernstein, Julia Azari, and David S. Bernstein. Scott, ever the escapist, steered clear of wands and wizardry but still embraced fantasy with Lev Grossman’s “The Bright Sword.” And Ben lamented the recent gutting of Voice of America—only to note that those voices haven’t vanished. They’re just looking for a new frequency.

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For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Steven Heydemann, the Director of the Middle East Studies Program at Smith College, to assess the fast-changing developments in Syria today. Heydemann discusses the surge in communal violence in Syria, the deal between the new Hayat Tahrir al-Sham-led government and Syria's Kurds, Israel's counterproductive interventions, and U.S. policy toward the new regime in Damascus. 

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Derek Thompson, a senior editor at The Atlantic and co-author (with Ezra Klein) of Abundance, joins Renée DiResta, Associate Research Professor at the McCourt School of Public Policy at Georgetown and a Contributing Editor at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the UT Austin School of Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the theory of Abundance and its feasibility in an age of political discord and institutional distrust.

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In a live conversation on March 14, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes, sat down with assistant professor of law at the University of Kentucky Matt Boaz and Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Scott Anderson to discuss legal challenges to the Trump administration’s executive actions, including the detention of permanent resident Mahmoud Khalil, the birthright citizenship executive order, dismantling of USAID, the firing of probationary employees across the federal government, and more.

You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here.

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From December 15, 2020: Alan Rozenshtein sat down with Yaya Fanusie, a former CIA analyst and an expert on the national security implications of cryptocurrencies, who recently published a paper as part of Lawfare's ongoing Digital Social Contract research paper series, entitled, "Central Bank Digital Currencies: The Threat From Money Launderers and How to Stop Them." They talked about how central banks are exploring digital currencies, how those currencies might in turn be used by criminals and terrorist groups, and how governments and the private sector should respond.

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From October 6, 2023: The First Amendment protects speech, but what kind? True speech, sure. But what about false or misleading speech? What if it's harmful? After all, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater—or can you?

To answer these questions, Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare spoke with Jeff Kosseff, who is an Associate Professor of Cybersecurity Law in the United States Naval Academy’s Cyber Science Department and a Contributing Editor at Lawfare. Jeff is releasing his latest book this month, titled "Liar in a Crowded Theater: Freedom of Speech in a World of Misinformation," in which he describes, and defends, the First Amendment's robust protections for false and misleading speech.

They spoke about the book, why you sometimes can yell fire in a crowded theater, and how new technology both superchargers misinformation and provides new tools to fight it.

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This episode of the Lawfare Podcast features Glen Weyl, economist and author at Microsoft Research; Jacob Mchangama, Executive Director of the Future of Free Speech Project at Vanderbilt; and Ravi Iyer, Managing Director of the USC Marshall School Neely Center.

Together with Renee DiResta, Associate Research Professor at the McCourt School of Public Policy at Georgetown and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, they talk about design vs moderation. Conversations about the challenges of social media often focus on moderation—what stays up and what comes down. Yet the way a social media platform is built influences everything from what we see, to what is amplified, to what content is created in the first place—as users respond to incentives, nudges, and affordances. Design processes are often invisible or opaque, and users have little power—though new decentralized platforms are changing that. So they talk about designing a prosocial media for the future, and the potential for an online world without Caesars.

Articles Referenced:

https://arxiv.org/abs/2502.10834

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4178647

https://www.techdirt.com/2025/01/27/empowering-users-not-overlords-overcoming-digital-helplessness/

https://kgi.georgetown.edu/research-and-commentary/better-feeds/

https://knightcolumbia.org/content/the-algorithmic-management-of-polarization-and-violence-on-social-media

https://time.com/7258238/social-media-tang-siddarth-weyl/

https://futurefreespeech.org/scope-creep/

https://futurefreespeech.org/preventing-torrents-of-hate-or-stifling-free-expression-online/

https://www.thefai.org/posts/shaping-the-future-of-social-media-with-middleware

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On today’s episode, Van Jackson, Professor of International Relations at Victoria University of Wellington, and Michael Brenes, Associate Director of the Brady-Johnson Program in Grand Strategy and Lecturer in History at Yale University, join Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk about their new book,  “The Rivalry Peril: How Great-Power Competition Threatens Peace and Weakens Democracy,” in which they make the case for the United States to take a less aggressive approach to China. They discussed the pitfalls of great power competition, the origins of the China threat, and why a destructive U.S.-China rivalry is our choice, rather than our destiny.

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This week, Scott sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor and co-host emeritus Alan Rozenshtein and Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Lowering the Bar.” Last week, the Trump administration took aim at two leading law firms—Covington & Burling and Perkins Coie—by repealing lawyers’ security clearances and setting limits on the extent to which government actors can contract with them, on the apparent grounds that they worked for Trump’s perceived enemies. Is this legal? Will it be challenged? And what will the effect be on the legal industry?
• “Big Math on Campus.” The Trump administration recently announced its intent to withhold $400 million in government grants from Columbia University, on the grounds that it had not done enough to combat anti-semitism on campus—a measure it paired with an indication that it would repeal student visas from those who had expressed “pro-Hamas” views. Is this tack a proper or legally sustainable one? And what impact will it have on academic communities in the United States?
• “Nothing Is Certain but Death and Ta…Well, at Least Death.” After temporarily delaying tariffs on Canada and Mexico after 48 hours last month, President Trump assured everyone that they were definitely getting installed this month. But once again, after a few days, he rescinded many of them. Nonetheless, the uncertainty surrounding this administration’s policies has markets spooked, triggering fears of a recession—something President Trump has indicated people may just have to live through. What are the real costs and benefits of Trump’s oscillating trade policies?

In object lessons, Alan went full nerd and prescribed himself a decade-long literary exile with “Gardens of the Moon,” the first in Steven Erikson’s ten-book epic. Scott’s old ass, meanwhile, threw its weight behind “My Old Ass,” a film about a young woman navigating family, love, and self-discovery—all with a little hallucinogenic assistance. And Natalie logrolled like a pro, plugging Quinta Jurecic’s guest spot on The Ezra Klein Show, where Quinta delivers one of Natalie’s all-time favorite “Quintaisms”—with all the necessary context baked right in.

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Jack Goldsmith sits down with Zachary Price, Professor of Law at UC Law San Francisco and author of the new book, “Constitutional Symmetry: Judging in a Divided Republic,” which argues for judges to make decisions that work “symmetrically” across major partisan and ideological divides. He explores the implications of this theory in the context of the Trump administration's legal actions, particularly regarding the removal power and the Supreme Court's evolving jurisprudence. 

The two discuss the implications of the unitary executive theory, particularly in relation to presidential power over law enforcement and executive orders. They analyze the TikTok executive order as a case study of presidential discretion and its potential overreach. The discussion also covers the implications of the Impoundment Control Act on congressional authority and the importance of maintaining a balance of power between the executive and legislative branches. Finally, they explore the concept of “constitutional symmetry” in the context of separation of powers and the role of civil service in preserving governmental integrity. 

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Carla Reyes, Associate Professor of Law at SMU Dedman School of Law, and Drew Hinkes, a Partner at Winston & Strawn with a practice focused on digital assets and advising financial services clients, join Kevin Frazier, Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the latest in cryptocurrency policy. The trio review the evolution of crypto-related policy since the Obama era, discuss the veracity of dominant crypto narratives, and explore what’s next from the Trump administration on this complex, evolving topic. 

Read more:

• TRM Labs 2025 Crypto Crime Report: https://www.trmlabs.com/2025-crypto-crime-report
• 2023 FDIC National Survey of Unbanked and Underbanked Households: https://www.fdic.gov/household-survey

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In a live conversation on March 7, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett, sat down with associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota Law School Nick Bednar and Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Scott Anderson to discuss legal challenges to the Trump administration’s executive actions, including DOGE attempting to enter the U.S. African Development Foundation, the firing of probationary employees across the executive branch, and more.

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From March 1, 2022: Over the past week, the United States and its allies have responded to Russia's military invasion of Ukraine with some unprecedented actions of their own—economic sanctions that target Russia in ways that have never been tried before, let alone applied to one of the world's largest economies over just a handful of days.

To discuss this revolutionary sanctions strategy and what it may mean moving forward, Scott R. Anderson sat down with two sanctions experts: Julia Friedlander, senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, and Rachel Ziemba, adjunct fellow at the Center for a New American Security. They talked about the different types of sanctions being applied, what impact they will have on the Russian economy and what the consequences may be, not just for the conflict in Ukraine, but for the rest of the world moving forward.

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From February 26, 2024: At a South Carolina campaign rally on Feb. 10, former President Donald Trump told a crowd of supporters that while he was president he told “one of the presidents of a big country” in the NATO alliance that he would not protect that country from a Russian invasion if that country didn’t pay. Trump then said, “In fact, I would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. You got to pay. You got to pay your bills.” 

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson to talk through Trump’s NATO comments, why they’re rattling European allies, whether a U.S. president could destroy the alliance, and how Congress might stop it. They also talked about why everyone here at Lawfare calls Section 1250A of the recent National Defense Authorization Act the “Anderson Saves NATO” provision.

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For today's episode, Lawfare general counsel and senior editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Edward Fishman, a senior research scholar at the Center for Global Energy Policy within Columbia University's School of International and Public Affairs, to discuss his new book: "Chokepoints: American Power in the Age of Economic Warfare."They discussed Fishman's own career at the cutting edge of economic statecraft, the evolving toolkit it has come to present U.S. policymakers, the role he thinks it will play in our new era of major power competition, and what it may all mean for the future of the global order.

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In the first weeks of the second Trump administration, the Office of Management and Budget abruptly froze trillions of dollars in federal funds—sparking a crisis over impoundment, the executive branch’s assertion of authority to refuse to distribute money appropriated by Congress. Since then, the administration has attempted to withhold further funds disbursed by specific agencies and attempted to dismantle some agencies altogether. Many of these efforts have been blocked by courts. But Congress—the branch of government whose constitutional authority is being usurped—has remained strikingly quiet.

To discuss the state of play on impoundment, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic caught up with Eloise Pasachoff, a professor at the Georgetown University Law Center, and Brookings Senior Fellow and Lawfare Senior Editor Molly Reynolds. They talked about how things have developed since January, how the courts and Congress are handling the crisis, and how it might shape congressional negotiations to avoid a government shutdown as soon as March 15. 

Note: This podcast was recorded on March 4, before the Supreme Court’s March 5 ruling denying the Trump administration’s request to continue a freeze on billions of dollars in foreign aid and sending the case back down to the district court for further litigation.

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This week, Scott was joined by his Lawfare colleagues Molly Reynolds and Quinta Jurecic to work through the week’s big national security news stories, including:

• “Kyiv Calm and Tarry On.” This past Friday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy visited the White House for what turned into a disastrous meeting, in which President Donald Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance baited him into a heated public argument over Russia’s invasion of his country. In its aftermath, Trump refused to sign the minerals deal Zelensky was there to finalize and has now cut off U.S. assistance to Ukraine—though, at the time of recording, reports were emerging that the minerals deal was now back on track. And while European allies have stepped up their support for Ukraine, Trump’s Republican allies have united in support of him and increasingly called for Zelenskyy’s resignation. What contributed to this explosive about-face in U.S. policy towards Ukraine? And what does it tell us about the Trump administration’s decision-making?
• “Betting Against the House.” House Majority Leader Mike Johnson scored what many are framing as a big win last week when he—with help from President Trump and ally Elon Musk—was able to unite his fractious caucus’s narrow majority to pass their preferred budget. But there are concerns that aspects of the budget—and the broader agenda Trump is pressuring his party to unite behind—will likely undermine Republicans’ prospects of holding the House in 2026 midterm elections. What is the state of governance in Congress at the moment? And what does it mean for the Trump administration’s aggressive agenda.
• “Prime Directive.” Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos once again intervened in the newspaper’s opinions section last week, when he indicated that the paper no longer had a responsibility to reflect diverse views and would instead focus on issues of “personal liberties and free markets” that he thought were important for America—a mandate that led opinions editor David Shipley to resign. Is Bezos’s move an effort to dodge the ire of President Trump and his supporters? Or is something else in play? And what impact will it have on the paper’s future as an institution?

For object lessons, Quinta endorsed the New York Times Magazine’s lengthy art-imitates-life-imitates-art portrait of the Murdoch family and their odd relationship with the show Succession. Scott shared his discovery of a beautiful (and free!) online graphic novel of one of his favorite books, Lloyd Alexander’s “The Book of Three,” that’s made it much more accessible for his young son, and asked for listeners to recommend other good graphic novel translations of classic fantasy and sci-fi suitable for a younger audience. And Molly celebrated the best season of the year: Girl Scout cookie season!

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For today's episode, Lawfare General Counsel and Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Joel Braunold, the Managing Director for the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace and a Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the end of the first phase of the Gaza ceasefire and other recent developments relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Together, they discussed how the terms of the ceasefire were changing, recent tensions between Israel and the new Syrian regime over threats to Druze communities, and how the Trump administration is trying to navigate it all. 

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Tim Fist, Director of Emerging Technology Policy at the Institute for Future Progress, and Arnab Datta, Director of Infrastructure Policy at IFP and Managing Director of Policy Implementation at Employ America, join Kevin Frazier, a Contributing Editor at Lawfare and adjunct professor at Delaware Law, to dive into the weeds of their thorough report on building America’s AI infrastructure. The duo extensively studied the gulf between the stated goals of America’s AI leaders and the practical hurdles to realizing those ambitious aims.

Check out the entire report series here: Compute in America

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In a live conversation on February 28, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Roger Parloff and Assistant Professor of Law at the University of Houston Law Center Chris Mirasol about the detention of immigrants at Guantanamo Bay, the dismantling of USAID and the foreign aid freeze, the firing of probationary employees across the federal government, and more.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here.

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From February 21, 2024: The advocacy group Protect Democracy last month issued an updated version of its report entitled, “The Authoritarian Playbook.” The new report is called, “The Authoritarian Playbook for 2025: How an authoritarian president will dismantle our democracy and what we can do to protect it.” It is a fascinating compilation of things that Donald Trump has promised to do and how they could likely be expected to affect American democracy if he is elected to a second term in office. 

To discuss the report, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke with two of its authors: Genevieve Nadeau and Erica Newland, both of Protect Democracy. They talked about what's new in the report, how much of it is speculation and how much of it is simply taking Donald Trump's words seriously, opportunities to mitigate the most dire consequences of which the report warns, and whether this is just baked into the American presidency when occupied by a truly authoritarian personality. 

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From March 14, 2022: Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine has undermined some of the fundamental assumptions underlying the security of Europe through much of the post-World War II era. As a result, several European nations have begun to consider dramatic changes in how they approach national security, both individually and collectively.

To better understand how the war in Ukraine is reshaping the European security order, Scott R. Anderson sat down with two of his colleagues from the Brookings Institution: Célia Belin, a visiting fellow at Brookings and a former official in the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and Constanze Stelzenmüller, the Fritz Stern Chair on Germany and trans-Atlantic Relations in the Center on the United States and Europe.

They discussed how the Ukraine conflict is reshaping Europe's approach to security affairs, what this means for institutions like the European Union and NATO, and how these changes are likely to impact the fundamental debate over what it means to be a part of Europe.

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On today’s episode, the Washington Post's West Africa bureau chief Rachel Chason and freelance journalist John Lechner join Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk about the current state of the Sahel and the many forces that have converged in the region over the past couple of years.

They discussed Chason’s new series out in the Post, “Crossroads of Conflict,” which includes six rich portraits of Sahelian actors, including: an Islamist militant, a militia commander, a Russian mercenary, an American soldier, a coup leader, and a defiant broadcaster. They also talked about Lechner’s forthcoming book, “Death Is Our Business: Russian Mercenaries and the New Era of Private Warfare.”

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For today’s episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Kathleen Claussen, an expert in international economic law and professor at the Georgetown University Law Center, and Lawfare Contributing Editor Peter Harrell, a non-resident senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, to discuss the ambitious set of tariffs the Trump administration has imposed or threatened over its first month in office.

They discussed the tariffs Trump has imposed so far, what seems to be coming over the horizon, and how they all line up with the legal authorities he is using to impose them.

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This week, Scott joined his Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes, Natalie Orpett, and Anastasiia Lapatina for a rare, all-in-person discussion of the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Chicken Kyiv, Served Cold.” The Trump administration’s vision for a peace settlement in Ukraine is coming into focus—and it’s not the one many Ukrainians and Europeans were hoping for. In negotiations that have largely excluded Ukrainian and European partners—and amidst a barrage of hostile attacks on Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s democratic legitimacy—the Trump administration appears to be insisting on some U.S. stake in Ukraine’s rare earth minerals while remaining unwilling to support Ukraine’s NATO membership and resistant to providing hard security guarantees in response. Are the contours of such a deal something Ukraine can agree to? And will it advance U.S. and Ukrainian national security interests?
• “Euro Vision.” In some of his first comments since emerging from elections as Germany’s new chancellor, Friedrich Merz called for European independence from the United States, in light of the Trump administration’s increasing neglect (and even hostility) to longstanding transatlantic partnerships. And Ukraine may be the first front for this new policy orientation, as European officials have suggested an increased willingness to deploy ground troops to Ukraine, increase their own assistance levels, and even make an alternate offer for access to Ukraine’s rare earth minerals. How much potential is there for a truly independent European foreign policy? And what will it mean for U.S. national interests?
• “Baywatch Reruns.” As part of its aggressive campaign against undocumented migrants, the Trump administration has expanded its use of the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay for what it claims to be the “worst of the worst” undocumented migrants involved in violent crimes. But recent reporting has cast serious doubt on whether everyone who has been detained at Guantanamo meets this qualification, while others have raised questions about the conditions in which detainees are being held and the legal basis for the involvement of military personnel. What is the Trump administration really trying to accomplish? And is Guantanamo Bay once again becoming a black mark on American rule of law?

In object lessons, Natalie confirmed the existence of the year’s most top-secret, exclusive diplomatic gathering—the Lawfare Baby Summit. Anastasiia unveiled Escalation, a long-anticipated narrative podcast series from Lawfare and Goat Rodeo about the history of the U.S.-Ukraine relationship. Scott—in true elder Millennial fashion—identified with the gracefully aging, definitely not old, Before Trilogy from Richard Linklater. And Ben marked the third anniversary of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine with a somber reflection on the sparse turnout at a Lincoln Memorial rally over the weekend, underscoring the ongoing challenge of building mass political movements from within small communities.

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On Feb. 24, Fiona Hill (Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy, Center on the United States and Europe), Constanze Stelzenmüller, (Director at the Center on the United States and Europe; Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy, Center on the United States and Europe; and Fritz Stern Chair on Germany and Trans-Atlantic Relations), Anastasiia Lapatina (Ukraine Fellow, Lawfare), Tyler McBrien (Managing Editor, Lawfare), and Benjamin Wittes (Editor-in-Chief, Lawfare) recorded a live discussion at the Brookings Institution on "Trump’s return and the fate of Ukraine" and Lawfare and Goat Rodeo's new narrative podcast series on the U.S. and Ukraine, Escalation. 

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Alexandra Reeve Givens, CEO of the Center for Democracy & Technology; Courtney Lang, Vice President of Policy for Trust, Data, and Technology at ITI and a Non-Resident Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council GeoTech Center; and Nema Milaninia, a partner on the Special Matters & Government Investigations team at King & Spalding, join Kevin Frazier, Contributing Editor at Lawfare and Adjunct Professor at Delaware Law, to discuss the Paris AI Action Summit and whether it marks a formal pivot away from AI safety to AI security and, if so, what an embrace of AI security means for domestic and international AI governance.

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In a live conversation on February 21, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Scott Anderson, and Roger Parloff about the Justice Department moving to drop the criminal case against NYC Mayor Eric Adams and lawsuits challenging executive actions by President Trump and his administration, including the dismantling of USAID, DOGE’s communications with executive agencies, and the attempt to ban transgender service members from the military.

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From September 20, 2023: Economic warfare isn’t a new concept. Protectionist policies, asymmetrical trade agreements, currency wars—those are just a few examples of the economic levers states have long used to control outcomes. But in their new book, two political scientists, Henry Farrell and Abe Newman, argue that a technological innovation spurred on by free market embracers and coopted by the U.S. was an accidental entry point into a new era of economic statecraft—an era whose precise contours and rules are still being ironed out today, as we are fighting in a so-called economic war. 

Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han talked to them about how this weaponization came to be, how U.S. national security objectives are bleeding into economic warfare, and what policymakers might focus on in trying to ensure that the economic web that the U.S. currently sits at the center of is not ravaged by its own power. 

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From June 11, 2021: Daniel Richman and Sarah Seo are professors at Columbia Law School, and they are co-authors of a recent article on Lawfare entitled, "Toward a New Era for Federal and State Oversight of Local Police." Benjamin Wittes sat down with them to discuss the article, the history of the federal-state relationship in law enforcement, how the feds came to play an oversight role with respect to police departments, the limits of that role inherent in the cooperative relationship that law enforcement agencies engage in for other reasons, the role that the feds might play under new legislation and the role that state governments may play as well.

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Before January, most Americans had probably never heard of the Bureau of the Fiscal Service (BFS), a Treasury Department agency that distributes payments from the federal government. But over the last month, this corner of government has appeared again and again in the headlines, as aides working with Elon Musk’s quasi-governmental DOGE initiative successfully gained access to BFS’s payment systems. After a flurry of litigation, a temporary restraining order now bars these aides from accessing data—but the crisis is not over. It’s still not clear precisely what happened within BFS or what access political actors within the administration might gain in the future, and DOGE continues to access similarly sensitive systems in other agencies, such as the Social Security Administration and the Internal Revenue Service.

To understand what’s happening, Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic spoke with Wendy Edelberg, Director of the Hamilton Project and Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution, and Jacob Leibenluft, who served in the Treasury Department and the Office of Management and Budget under the Biden administration. Why is it so alarming to have political appointees accessing BFS systems? What does this tell us about the administration’s political goals? And what manner of crises could result from this kind of meddling? 

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This week, Scott sat down with his colleagues Tyler McBrien and Roger Parloff, as well as special guest Claire Meynial, U.S. correspondent for Le Point, to talk over the week's big national security news, including:

• “Make Europe Aghast Again.” Vice President J.D. Vance stunned the Munich Security Conference last week with remarks that criticized European allies for suppressing far-right and anti-immigration voices while playing down threats from China and Russia. Combined with the Trump administration’s past hostility to Transatlantic relationships, many are taking Vance’s as a sign of a downgrade in the U.S.-Europe relationship. But is this overstating things? And how far can the Trump administration adjust the relationship on its own, even if it wanted to?
• “I Would Do Anything for Bove, but I Won’t Do That.” (Credit to Robert Anderson, via Mike Stern.) The resignation of seven Justice Department attorneys over their refusal to move to dismiss charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams at the direction of acting Deputy Attorney General Emil Bove has brought national attention to the Trump administration’s apparent intent to use its discretion over criminal prosecution as a policy tool to advance its immigration and potentially other agendas. But what do these recent events tell us about the potential for—and limits on—such a strategy? 
• “Animus Instinct.” The legal challenge to President Trump’s executive order banning transgender individuals from military service and halting gender-affirming care finally had a hearing in federal court this week. And in a barnburner, U.S. District Judge Ana Reyes raked the Justice Department over the coals, querying whether the ban was the result of “animus.” But how big a difference will her line of inquiry make in the end? Is there any realistic chance the courts will intervene?

For object lessons, Roger recommended a visit to the Holocaust Museum as an opportunity for a sober reflection. Tyler passed along Noah Schachtman's portrait of the players in the Eric Adams resignation scandal in Vanity Fair. Scott passed along his new favorite vegetarian pasta recipe, pasta al sugo finto. And Claire discussed some of her work on abortion rights in advance of International Women's Day on March 8, including research into the Comstock Act. 

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On Jan. 29, President Trump ordered the expansion of facilities at Guantanamo Bay to hold migrants being deported from the United States. It was the latest—and perhaps most aggressive—move to deploy the U.S. military in pursuit of the administration's immigration policies. And it's not at all clear that there's a solid legal basis for doing it. Executive Editor Natalie Orpett sat down with Chris Mirasola, Assistant Professor at the University of Houston Law Center and author of a recent piece in Lawfare on this subject, to talk through the legal issues, the administration's strategy, and what it all means for Trump's unconventional use of the military.

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It’s been a wild and wooly week in Ukraine politics: Speeches from American officials have not been consistent with each other, American statements on Ukraine at the Munich Security Conference were not well received by European leaders, and domestic politics in Ukraine are getting worrisome. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Eric Ciaramella of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace to talk about all of these issues and more.

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Matt Perault, Head of AI Policy at Andreessen Horowitz, joins Kevin Frazier, Contributing Editor at Lawfare and Adjunct Professor at Delaware Law, to define the Little Tech Agenda and explore how adoption of the Agenda may shape AI development across the country. The duo also discuss the current AI policy landscape.

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In a live conversation on February 14, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Scott Anderson, and Roger Parloff and Managing Editor Tyler McBrien about the lawsuits challenging executive actions by President Trump and his administration, including the foreign aid freeze, access to Treasury Department systems by associates of the Department of Government Efficiency, and the firing of the head of the Office of the Special Counsel.

You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here.

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From August 18, 2021: Earlier this month, Tucker Carlson, whose nightly news show on Fox has become the most popular show in U.S. cable news history, traveled to Budapest to record a special version of his show. The centerpiece of his visit was an interview with Hungary's authoritarian leader, Viktor Orbán. But far from criticizing Orbán or questioning him on Hungary's increasing move away from liberal democracy, Carlson was all compliments, praising the fence that Hungary has built along its border and allowing Orbán to lash out against his critics at home and abroad.

Carlson is not the only one with kind words for Hungary's would-be strongman. In the past months, an increasing number of conservative media and intellectual elites have praised Hungary, as well as earlier models like Portugal under the post-World War II right-wing dictator António Salazar, for what they view as its willingness to use state power to fight for conservative social, cultural and religious values.

To discuss what this embrace of foreign authoritarianism means for the American conservative movement, Alan Rozenshtein spoke with Zack Beauchamp, a senior correspondent at Vox, who has written about the right’s embrace of Orbánism and what it means for the future of American democracy.

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From July 14, 2020: In a 2018 poll, 74 percent of Americans said they believed that some group of unelected government and military officials was definitely or probably secretly manipulating or directing national policy. What is the actual history of presidents and Congress clashing with national security and law enforcement institutions? And how has that led to Trump's notion of a deep state out to get him? David Priess spoke with two-time Pulitzer Prize winner David Rohde of The New Yorker, who has turned his attention to this tricky topic in the new book, "In Deep: The FBI, the CIA, and the Truth about America's 'Deep State.'" They talked about intelligence, law enforcement, inspectors general, public trust in government and of course, Bill Barr.

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In the last two years, there have been at least four incidents of damaged underwater infrastructure in the Baltic Sea. Be it Russian deliberate sabotage or accidents, NATO is looking for ways to enhance Europe’s maritime security.

In this episode, Lawfare’s Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina sits down with Minna Ålander, an Associate Fellow at Chatham House’s Europe Programme, to discuss what Europe can do to protect its waters. 

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Only a few weeks have passed since inauguration, but President Trump's barrage of executive orders has already generated dozens of legal challenges. Which raises the question: are the courts up to the job? Executive Editor Natalie Orpett sat down with Benjamin Wittes, Lawfare's Editor-in-Chief, to discuss his recent article, “Are the Courts Up to the Situation?,” published in Lawfare earlier this week. They talked about the courts' role in the face of unprecedented assertions of executive power, how they're faring so far, and what comes next.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare teammates Tyler McBrien and Nastya Lapatina and Lawfare friend Joel Braunold, Managing Director of the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace, to talk over the week's big national security news stories, including:

• “Mi Gaza Es Su Gaza.” President Donald Trump shocked the world last week when, in a joint press briefing with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, he announced plans for the United States to “own” Gaza, take responsibility for reconstructing it, and ultimately renovate it into a “Riviera” on the Eastern Mediterranean—one, he later made clear, that Palestinians would no longer be allowed to live in. What of this plan is serious and what is bluster? And what impact will it have on the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the delicate ceasefire that Trump’s emissary worked so hard to secure just weeks ago in Gaza?
• “Bullets for Bauxite.” President Trump recently reiterated his desire for a quick end to the conflict in Ukraine, a topic on which senior Trump administration and Ukrainian officials will be talking soon. But peace will come at a price—in this case, a deal guaranteeing U.S. access to Ukraine’s rare earth minerals, among other concessions. Is Trump’s timeline realistic? And how is his administration’s “America First” tack likely to impact the trajectory of the conflict?
• “Quid Pro Whoa.” Acting Deputy Attorney General Emil Bove took the exceptional step this week of directing the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York to dismiss corruption charges—arising from alleged improper contributions and relationships with foreign government officials, including from Turkey—against New York Mayor Eric Adams so that Adams could focus his energy combating high crime and unlawful immigration. What should we make of such a clear quid pro quo? And what might it mean for the Justice Department moving forward?

For object lessons, Tyler and Nastya plugged Lawfare's next big long-form audio documentary series, which they co-host and is set to debut later this month: Escalation, a podcast about the war in Ukraine. Scott recommended an incredibly touching piece in the New York Times about faith, parenthood, and reconciling the two, entitled "How My Dad Reconciled His God with His Gay Son," by Timothy White. And in honor of the man's Super Bowl victory, Joel shared one of his favorite quotes from Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Jalen Hurts, which has particular resonance with the peacebuilding community he works in: "I had a purpose before anybody had an opinion."

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Jack Goldsmith, the Learned Hand Professor at Harvard Law School and co-founder of Lawfare, joins Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to talk about his recent Lawfare article discussing last year's Supreme Court decision in Trump v. United States and its implications for executive power. They discuss how the ruling extends beyond presidential immunity, the broader shift toward a maximalist theory of executive authority, and what this means for the future of American democracy.

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Chris Miller, a professor at the Fletcher School at Tufts University and Nonresident Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and Marshall Kosloff, Senior Fellow at the Niskanen Center and co-host of the Realignment Podcast, join Kevin Frazier, a Contributing Editor at Lawfare and adjunct professor at Delaware Law, and Alan Rozenshtein, Senior Editor at Lawfare and associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota, to discuss AI, supply chains, and the Abundance Agenda.

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In a live conversation on February 7, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Roger Parloff about the lawsuits against executive actions by President Trump and his administration, including the actions by DOGE to gain access to executive agencies, the attempt to dissolve USAID, the attempt to produce a list and potentially fire FBI agent and employees who were involved with the Jan. 6 investigations, and more.

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From August 22, 2023: In 2003, President Bush created the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, or PEPFAR, and in the twenty years since, the program has been credited with saving over 25 million lives and stabilizing health systems around the world. On Sept. 30, 2023, the program will expire if Congress doesn’t act, putting millions of people at risk of losing access to HIV/AIDS treatment.

Lawfare Associate Editor of Communications Anna Hickey sat down with Emily Bass, a writer and activist who has spent more than twenty years writing about and working on HIV/AIDS. In 2021, she wrote “To End a Plague,” a book on America's war on AIDS in Africa. They discussed how PEPFAR has changed over the past 2 decades, why it is at risk of expiring this fall, and what the expiration would mean for the millions of people who depend on it.

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From August 31, 2020: Earlier this month, the Trump administration re-imposed tariffs on aluminum imports from Canada, signaling a new salvo in the now years-long trade war it has been waging with countless U.S. trading partners. But what gives the president the authority to pursue such measures unilaterally, even when he lacks support from members of his own party in Congress? To talk through this question, Scott R. Anderson sat down with Kathleen Claussen of the University of Miami School of Law and Timothy Meyer of Vanderbilt Law School. They discussed the scope of the president's authority over trade, where it came from and what a future Congress might be able to do about it.

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On today’s podcast, Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey spoke to Nayna Gupta, Director of Policy at the American Immigration Council, about the Laken Riley Act, the first piece of legislation signed by President Trump in his second term, its start as a messaging bill in the last Congress, and its impact on the immigration detention system.

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Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor and Georgetown professor Daniel Byman sits down with Holly Berkley Fletcher, a former Senior Africa Analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency, to discuss the complex and tragic situation in Sudan and her recent Lawfare article on the subject, “The Sudan War and the Limits of American Power.” They talk about the initial hope following the overthrow of Omar al-Bashir in 2019, the subsequent military conflicts in Sudan, the country’s humanitarian crisis, the role of regional powers, and the challenges faced by civilians and the international community in addressing the ongoing violence and suffering. 

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes, Molly Reynolds, and Anna Bower to talk through another big week of national security news, including:

• “Checked Out and Off Balance.” Over its first two weeks in office, the Trump administration has pushed against the traditional limits of congressional authority by unlawfully impounding funds, terminating federal employees contrary to statute, and seeking to dismantle at least one federal agency contrary to statute. But the Republican-controlled Congress has thus far remained almost entirely complacent, if not supportive of the president’s actions. How far will the Trump administration be able to go? And what will the long-term consequences be for the separation of powers?
• “Jus Soli? Jus Kidding.’” As one of his first acts after returning to the White House, Donald Trump issued an executive order refusing to recognize birthright citizenship in the United States for anyone whose parents are not citizens or lawful permanent residents. All told, it seems like a clear effort to trigger a review of the traditional understanding of the 14th Amendment as implementing jus soli, meaning citizenship based on place of birth. But how likely is it to work?
• “Fo’ Drizz(coll).” The Trump administration’s promised campaign of retribution has hit the Justice Department, where senior supervisors have been reassigned and prosecutors involved in the Jan. 6 investigations have been terminated, perhaps unlawfully. But now efforts to gather the names of FBI agents involved in those same investigations for presumed retribution are facing serious pushback, including from the Bureau’s Acting Director Brian Driscoll (known as “the Drizz”). How hard can the FBI and Justice Department push back? And where are the legal limits on what the Trump administration can do?

In object lessons, Molly chose not to gamble and stayed on-brand with her recommendation of local-NPR-affiliate podcast Scratch & Win. Ben asked himself the question that many at the FBI are asking themselves these days: “WWDD?” Scott followed the sentiment with an endorsement of “Civil servants shouldn’t quit their jobs,” by Matthew Yglesias. And Anna insisted that her reverence of the TV show Severance has absolutely nothing—really, nothing—to do with belly buttons.

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On Jan. 28, the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) sent out an email offering a “deferred resignation program” to over 2 million federal employees, encouraging them to resign effective Sept. 30. The offer is only open until Feb. 6—and in the intervening days since OPM announced the program, federal employees have received a blizzard of followup emails offering confusing and rapidly changing information. 

Writing in Lawfare, Nick Bednar has examined the OPM offer and raised questions about whether federal employees who take this option will be able to seek legal recourse if their contract is not paid out. On the podcast, Bednar, an associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota, joined Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic to walk through the many legal issues raised by the program and how federal employees are handling this period of uncertainty.

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Today’s episode is a recording of Feb. 3 livestream that Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson hosted with George Ingram and Tony Pipa, both Senior Fellows in Global Economy and Development at the Brookings Institution, and Jonathan Katz, Senior Director of the Anti-Corruption, Democracy, and Security project also at Brookings—all three of whom are also alumni of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). Among other topics, they discussed the USAID’s tumultuous experience over the first two weeks of the Trump administration, the serious consequences of the sudden freeze President Trump installed on U.S. foreign assistance, the sudden removal of hundreds of USAID personnel, and rumors that USAID is set to be subsumed into the U.S. Department of State.

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Nema Milaninia, a former prosecutor at the International Criminal Court and International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and a current partner at the law firm King & Spalding, joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to discuss legislation in the U.S. Congress and recent executive actions taken by the Trump administration to, once again, sanction the International Criminal Court. 

Milaninia discusses what is motivating the most recent sanctions campaign, broke down the many criticisms—some legitimate, some less so—against the Court, and explained why sanctions, which are typically reserved for criminal organizations, would benefit no one. He also speaks about how, despite the ICC's best efforts to insulate itself, sanctions pose an existential threat to the institution.

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From May 9, 2022: Many individuals seeking asylum or other forms of immigration relief in the U.S. are subject to a program run by Immigration Customs Enforcement, or ICE, called the Intensive Supervision Appearance Program, which uses various kinds of tracking technologies as a way of keeping tabs on individuals who are not detained in ICE custody.

Stephanie Pell sat down with Sejal Zota, legal director of Just Futures Law, to talk about this program and the kinds of tracking technologies it employees. They discussed what is publicly known about these technologies, the privacy concerns associated with them, as well as some of the harms experienced by individuals who are subjected to the surveillance. Not withstanding these concerns, they also discussed whether the Intensive Supervision Appearance Program is a reasonable alternative to ICE detention, considering ICE’s need to keep track of individuals who are both seeking immigration relief and who may be ordered removed from the U.S. if that relief is not granted.

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In a live conversation on January 30, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Roger Parloff and contributing editor Renee DiResta about the confirmation hearings of Kash Patel to be FBI director, Tulsi Gabbard to be the director of national intelligence, and Robert F. Kennedy to be the health and human services secretary.

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For today’s episode, Lawfare General Counsel and Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Chris Mirasola, an assistant professor at the University of Houston Law Center and former Defense Department lawyer, to talk through the ways that the Trump administration is using the military to enforce its new immigration policies.

They discussed the steps the Trump administration has taken thus far, from transporting migrants on military flights to threatening to send them to Guantanamo Bay; the legal theories that the Trump administration is putting out there that might justify other, broader uses of the military; additional steps we should expect the administration to pursue in the near future; and what it all might mean for the rule of law and civil-military relations in our country.

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This week, the Office of Management and Budget announced a breathtakingly broad freeze on federal funds—before scrambling to clarify that freeze and seemingly rolling it back only two days later. The crisis touches on profound questions about the congressional power of the purse and limitations on presidential power under the Impoundment Control Act. To explain what’s going on, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic spoke with Eloise Pasachoff, a professor at Georgetown Law School, and Zachary Price of the University of California College of Law San Francisco.

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This week, Scott was joined by his colleagues Kevin and Eugenia—in what is sadly her last episode before leaving Lawfare—as well as special guest Peter Harrell for a deep dive into the week’s national security news, including:

• “Tariff or Takeoff.” The Trump administration got into what is arguably its first major international spat this week when Colombia’s refusal to accept a U.S. military flight returning migrants to that country led President Trump to threaten an array of punitive measures, from visa cut-offs to sanctions and tariffs. After Colombian President Gustavo Petro backed down, the White House was quick to claim victory. But how sustainable is Trump’s strategy? And is it really the route to restoring respect for the United States that the White House claims it is?
• “Talk to Me When They Get To ‘Project: The Fifth Element.’” Last week, the Trump administration announced Project Stargate—an initiative not to revive ‘90s sci-fi classics, but to instead make a massive investment in the U.S. development of artificial intelligence and related technologies. But a few days later, an announcement by Chinese AI platform DeepSeek indicating it had reached comparable results at a lower cost triggered a sudden decline in the value of AI-related stocks. What do these developments tell us about the competitive dynamics surrounding AI? And how should the United States be navigating them?
• “A Friend in Need is a Friend Shit Out of Luck.” The Trump administration has issued an across-the-board freeze of U.S. foreign assistance programs for 90 days as it reviews them for consistency with the administration’s vision of “America First” foreign policy. But what ramifications will this pause really have for U.S. foreign policy and beyond?

For object lessons, Kevin plugged the Seattle University School of Law’s Technology, Innovation Law, and Ethics Program. Eugenia got back to her roots in recommending the indie RPG video game Wildermyth, which follows a troupe of fantasy heroes from modest origins through their sunset years. Scott out-nerded Eugenia by recommending a pen-and-paper indie RPG, the physically gorgeous Thousand Year Old Vampire. And Peter kept it professional by recommending Arthur Herman’s book “Freedom’s Forge” as a case study on U.S. industrial policy that may have lessons for our current historical moment.

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Peter Hyun, then-Acting Chief of the Enforcement Bureau at the Federal Communications Commission, discusses with Lawfare Contributing Editor Justin Sherman the FCC’s data security and cybersecurity enforcement authorities and how those authorities fit into addressing national security threats to the communications supply chain. He covers some recent enforcement actions and issues in this area, ranging from the FCC’s data breach notification rule to submarine cables to rip-and-replace efforts targeting Chinese telecom components, and he offers predictions for how technology supply chains, national security risks, and entanglement with China may evolve in the years to come.

Note: Peter Hyun was in his position at the FCC at the time of recording and is now no longer with the Commission following the change in administration.

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In today’s episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Alan Z. Rozenshtein speaks with his University of Minnesota Law colleague, Nick Bednar, about the wave of Day 1 executive orders affecting the civil service. Bednar recently analyzed these orders in a piece for Lawfare. They discuss what the orders say, how they might be challenged in court, and what this means for the next four years and beyond.

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In a live conversation on January 23, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Scott R. Anderson, Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Alan Rozenshtein and assistant law professor at Pace University Amelia Wilson about the first batch of executive orders by President Trump in his second term, including suspending enforcement of the TikTok ban, the use of the military at the border, the birthright citizenship order, and the legal challenges some of these orders are facing.

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From February 15, 2023: The Jan. 6 committee’s final report on the insurrection is over 800 pages, including the footnotes. But there’s still new information coming out about the committee’s findings and its work.

Last week, we brought you an interview with Dean Jackson, one of the staffers who worked on the Jan. 6 committee’s investigation into the role of social media in the insurrection. Today, we’re featuring a conversation with Jacob Glick, who served as investigative counsel on the committee and is currently a policy counsel at Georgetown’s Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection. His work in the Jan. 6 investigation focused on social media and far-right extremism. Lawfare senior editor Quinta Jurecic spoke with Jacob about what the investigation showed him about the forces that led to Jan. 6, how he understands the threat still posed by extremism, and what it was like interviewing Twitter whistleblowers and members of far-right groups who stormed the Capitol.

You can read Jacob’s Lawfare article here, his essay with Mary McCord on countering extremism here in Just Security, and an interview with him and his Jan. 6 committee colleagues here at Tech Policy Press.

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From November 3, 2023: Since Hamas’s attack on Israel on Oct. 7, the Israel-Hamas war has largely been fought in Gaza, a small strip of land along the border of the Mediterranean Sea. But farther inland, there has been an uptick in hostilities between Israelis and Palestinians in the Palestinian territory of the West Bank. Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem says that at least 13 Palestinian herding communities in the West Bank have been forcibly displaced since the beginning of the war due to Israeli settler violence and intimidation, and nearly 100 Palestinians in the territory are reported to have been killed since the war began by both Israeli military strikes as well as settler violence. 

The fraught relationship between the Israeli government, Israeli settlers, Palestinians, and the Palestinian Authority are not new. But in part because of those existing issues, the West Bank has the potential to expand and complicate the bounds of the Israel-Hamas war—and some may argue that that is already underway. 

To understand how the West Bank fits into the ongoing hostilities between Israel and Hamas, Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han spoke to Dan Byman from the Center for Strategic & International Studies, who is also Lawfare’s Foreign Policy Editor; Ghaith al-Omari of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy; and Scott R. Anderson, Lawfare Senior Editor and Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. They talked about the international law that currently governs the rules of engagement in the West Bank, the political responses of the Israeli government and other Arab states, and how West Bank dynamics will impact the broader outcomes of the Israel-Hamas war. 

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Aram Gavoor, Associate Dean for Academic Affairs at GW Law, joins Kevin Frazier, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to summarize and analyze the Trump administration’s initial moves to pivot the nation’s AI policy toward relentless innovation. The duo discuss the significance of Trump rescinding the Biden administration’s 2023 executive order on AI as well as the recently announced Stargate Project.

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Alexis Loeb, the former Deputy Chief of the Capitol Siege Section of the Department of Justice, sits down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff to talk about President Trump's blanket pardons and commutations for everyone her unit prosecuted. 

She discusses how she became involved with the cases; how they were handled by prosecutors, judges, and juries; a couple of cases she personally prosecuted; and her views on the impact of Trump's pardon proclamation.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues and hosts emeriti Benjamin Wittes, Quinta Jurecic, and Alan Rozenshtein to talk through the week’s big—and we mean BIG—national security news, including:

• “Executive Disorder.” America’s once-and-future President Donald Trump hit the ground running, issuing dozens of executive actions on his first afternoon in office, from once again withdrawing from the Paris climate agreement to pardoning or commuting the sentences for almost everyone involved in the Jan. 6 insurrection. But which actions are important and which are just for the show? And what do they tell us about what to expect from a second Trump presidency?
• “Swiping Up on Consistency.” The Supreme Court’s decision to uphold the law banning TikTok triggered an unexpected crisis last week, as TikTok users who suddenly realized the platform was in danger apparently mounted a pressure campaign against elected officials that led several, including President Biden, to waffle on the desirability of the ban. But incoming President Donald Trump, who once tried to ban TikTok himself, jumped in with an order temporarily delaying the ban—a move that TikTok thanked him for by name in a notice on the platform after service was restored. What explains the sudden about-face among supporters of the TikTok ban?
• “Cease and Assist.” After more than a year of brutal hostilities, the parties have finally agreed to a ceasefire in the conflict over Gaza. But as Israeli hostages are gradually let free, humanitarian assistance resumes, and displaced Gazans return to their devastated neighborhoods, real questions remain. Is this just a pause or an end to the conflict? And what comes next in Gaza either way? 

In object lessons, Ben encouraged listeners to listen to Merrick Garland’s farewell speech to the Justice Department, regardless of how you feel about the former attorney general. Quinta embraced a sense of escapism with her praise of the Wallace & Gromit movies, particularly the newest addition to the franchise, Wallace & Gromit: Vengeance Most Fowl. And Scott—wondering what will become of us now—mustered up his best inner disgruntled, middle-aged Millennial voice to recommend Michael Longfellow’s plea to not ban TikTok from SNL’s Weekend Update.

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For today’s episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with a panel of leading experts to discuss the recent ceasefire in Gaza, including: Natan Sachs, Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution; Dan Byman, Professor at Georgetown University and Senior Fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies; Joel Braunold, Managing Director of the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace; and Dr. Dana El-Kurd, Professor at the University of Richmond. 

They discussed the terms of the ceasefire, who deserves credit for bringing it into place, what factors may contribute to its ultimate success or failure, and where it is likely to lead in the weeks and months to come.

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Senior Editor at Lawfare Eugenia Lostri sits down with Kevin Frazier, Lawfare’s Tarbell Fellow in Artificial Intelligence, to discuss recent disruptions to undersea cables. They talk about the ongoing investigations; the challenges that weather, cooperation, and jurisdiction can present; and the plans in place to protect the cables from accidents and sabotage.

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From July 11, 2022: We often use the terms democracy and liberal democracy interchangeably, but they're not the same thing. Democracy means majority rule and public participation. Liberal democracy means democracy plus minority rights. There's no guarantee that democracy will be liberal. And in fact, some of the same things that enable democracy can also undermine its liberal commitments.

Zac Gershberg, a professor of journalism and media studies at Idaho State University and Sean Illing, the host of the Vox Conversations podcast, have recently released a new book, The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion.

In the book, they argue that every democracy is fundamentally shaped by the dominant media technology of its time. And that the current landscape of social media and cable news fuels our democracy, but also pushes it in an illiberal authoritarian direction. Alan Rozenshtein spoke with Zac and Sean about how American democracy got to this point, how the present compares to the past, and what, if anything, can be done to put liberal democracy on firmer footing.

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From February 11, 2017: Donald Trump's election as president brought a surge of interest in the previously obscure Emoluments Clause, which prohibits any “Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under [the United States]” from accepting “any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.” Norm Eisen and Richard Painter, ethics experts for Presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush, have been leading the charge to hold Trump accountable under the Emoluments Clause for his failure to divest of his businesses. Recently, they filed suit against him in their capacity as chair and vice-chair of the good government group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. Benjamin Wittes chats with Norm about the Emoluments Clause, the lawsuit, and what all this has to do with national security.

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From January 7, 2017: In an interview with The New York Times before his intelligence briefing on Russian efforts to interfere in the U.S. election on Friday, President-elect Donald Trump called the intelligence community's assessment of Russian interference a "political witch hunt." In that spirit, Benjamin Wittes brought Lawfare managing editor Susan Hennessey and former GCHQ information security specialist Matt Tait on the podcast to discuss evidence of Russian attempts to influence the presidential election and Trump's baffling response.

A quick note: This podcast was recorded before the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released the intelligence community's report on Russian interference. Susan and Matt's firm belief that the hacking of Democratic Party information was carried out neither by a 14-year-old nor by a 400-pound person sitting on a bed, however, remains unshaken.

Ben says he still suspects a 400-pound 14-year-old sitting on a bed—albeit a bed in Moscow at GRU headquarters.

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Janet Egan, Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS) and Lennart Heim, an AI researcher at RAND, join Kevin Frazier, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to analyze the interim final rule on AI diffusion announced by the Bureau of Industry and Security on January 13, 2025. This fourth-quarter effort by the Biden Administration to shape AI policy may have major ramifications on the global race for AI dominance. 

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In a live conversation on January 15, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien and Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Scott Anderson about the second day of confirmation hearings for President-elect Donald Trump’s cabinet. They discussed the hearings for Pam Bondi’s nomination to be attorney general, John Ratcliffe’s nomination to be CIA director, and Marco Rubio’s nomination to be secretary of state, and how collegial or contentious each hearing was.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Roger Parloff, Renée DiResta, and Tyler McBrien to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “The Art of the Heel.” As President-elect Donald Trump’s inauguration nears, the various legal cases against him are gradually winding down to their inevitable end. But Trump is not letting them go quietly: instead, he has fought certain final steps tooth and nail, ranging from the (mostly meaningless) sentencing in his New York case to the final release of the report that Special Counsel Jack Smith is obligated to write. How do these various threads seem like they will resolve? And what will the legacy be for presidential accountability?
• “Make Meta MAGA Again.” The recent election appears to be triggering a wave of changes in corporate America, as a number of leading tech companies like Meta have begun quite publicly breaking down disinformation protections, paring back DEI programs, and eliminating offices and personnel that have long peeved conservatives. And even CEOs who have not implemented such changes have seemed eager to meet with Trump at his home in Mar-a-Lago. How much of this shift is smoke and how much is fire? And what might it mean in the long term?
• “Embracing a Growth Mindset.” President-elect Trump sent shivers through the international community last week when he refused to rule out the possibility of using economic coercion or even military force to expand U.S. territorial control, specifically over Greenland and the Panama Canal, two allied foreign territories that he has previously identified as having a direct bearing on U.S. national interests. How realistic are his threats? And what are the ramifications likely to be?

In object lessons, Tyler shared why there seem to be so many Australians in Brooklyn, as reported in “Bogans in Brooklyn,” from The Baffler (say that three times fast). Roger recommended “V13: Chronicle of a Trial” by Emmanuel Carrère, for coverage of a different trial than the ones he's been used to. Scott, in a stubborn refusal to admit that the holidays are over, was jolly about the Netflix movie “That Christmas.” And Renée reflected on AI’s potential to help people reach consensus through democratic deliberation and supernotes.

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In a live conversation on January 14, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editor Anna Bower about the confirmation hearing of Pete Hegseth by the Senate Armed Services committee on his expected nomination to be secretary of defense, the first confirmation hearing for one of President-elect Trump’s cabinet nominations in his second term.

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For today’s episode, Jennifer Gellie, the Chief of the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section ("CES") in the National Security Division of the U.S. Department of Justice, sits down with Lawfare Senior Editor and General Counsel Scott R. Anderson and Lawfare Contributing Editor and Morrison Foerster partner Brandon Van Grack to discuss new proposed regulations her office has issued for implementing the Foreign Agents Registration Act ("FARA"). 

They cover how the role of FARA has changed in recent decades, what the new regulations change and leave the same, and what the Justice Department's FARA-related priorities are likely to be in 2025. 

This episode is part of the “The Regulators” series, in which Brandon and Scott sit down with senior U.S. officials working at the front lines of U.S. national security and economic statecraft.

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In a live conversation on January 10, Lawfare Tarbell Fellow in Artificial Intelligence Kevin Frazier talked to Lawfare Senior Editor Alan Rozenshtein and Senior Staff Attorney at the Knight Institute Ramya Krishnan about the Supreme Court oral arguments over the legislation passed by Congress that bans TikTok unless its parent company ByteDance divests from the app, the arguments made by the different sides, and their predictions about how the Court might rule.

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This episode of “Lawfare Live: Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” was recorded on January 10 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Quinta Jurecic and Managing Editor Tyler McBrien about the sentencing of Donald Trump in the New York hush money case, what the prosecution, defense, and Justice Merchan said in court, and the litigation over the release of Special Counsel Jack Smith’s Final Report in the Jan. 6 and classified document prosecutions.

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From May 12, 2023: Earlier this year, Brian Fishman published a fantastic paper with Brookings thinking through how technology platforms grapple with terrorism and extremism, and how any reform to Section 230 must allow those platforms space to continue doing that work. That’s the short description, but the paper is really about so much more—about how the work of content moderation actually takes place, how contemporary analyses of the harms of social media fail to address the history of how platforms addressed Islamist terror, and how we should understand “the original sin of the internet.” 

For this episode of Arbiters of Truth, our occasional series on the information ecosystem, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic sat down to talk with Brian about his work. Brian is the cofounder of Cinder, a software platform for the kind of trust and safety work we describe here, and he was formerly a policy director at Meta, where he led the company’s work on dangerous individuals and organizations.

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Melissa Stewart, an Assistant Professor of Law at the University of Hawai'i at Mānoa’s William S. Richardson School of Law, joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to discuss the International Court of Justice’s forthcoming advisory opinion on obligations of states in respect of climate change.

Stewart discusses how we got here, the unprecedented level of participation from states and international organizations in written submissions and oral proceedings, and the main arguments put forth during two weeks of those proceedings in December. She also speaks about how, “in the face of limited jurisdictional pathways to pursue direct accountability against the states most responsible for climate change, states are pursuing creative solutions to seek progress before international courts and tribunals”—a phenomenon she coined “jurisdictional ingenuity” in a forthcoming book chapter.

Mentioned in this episode:

“The ICJ’s Advisory Opinion on Climate Change: A Data Analysis of Participants’ Submissions,” by Thomas Burri

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Jack Goldsmith sits down with Orin Kerr, a Professor at Stanford Law School, to discuss his new book, “The Digital Fourth Amendment: Privacy and Policing in Our Online World.” They talk about how Kerr became interested in these issues, the history and physicality assumptions of the Fourth Amendment, and how and why the digital world is different. They also discuss how the courts are interpreting the Fourth Amendment in a digital age, as well as Kerr’s Equilibrium-Adjustment Theory, the core theory of the book.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Molly Reynolds and Kevin Frazier to discuss the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Mike Drop (Almost).” While we are still two weeks away from having a new president, the 119th Congress is already underway. But there are signs of tension in the Republican majority controlling both chambers, with House Republicans (under pressure from former President Trump and adviser Elon Musk) having killed a leadership-negotiated compromise funding bill at the end of the last Congress and Speaker Mike Johnson just barely securing reelection by a single vote after some last minute wrangling within the Republican caucus. What do these recent events tell us about what we should expect over the next year?
• “Will Be Mild.” The Jan. 6 that passed earlier this week went very differently than the one four years ago, with Congress peacefully recognizing former President Trump’s election back to the White House. How are the legacies of the Jan. 6 insurrection of 2021 winding to a close in 2025? And which seem likely to persist?
• “Missed Connections.” Finland received an unwelcome Christmas present this year, after a major undersea telecommunications cable was damaged by the anchor of a suspected Russian shadow ship, in an act some believe was deliberate. And Taiwan rang in the New Year in similar fashion, with a major undersea cable getting damaged by a China-associated vessel. What is behind this set of attacks? And what tools do the affected states have to defend themselves?

In object lessons, Molly shared an excellent holiday tradition to keep in your back pocket for next year and all the years to come: a family time capsule. Scott shared his newly perfected cocktail recipe, a concoction he is calling the Little Palermo™ (see below). And Kevin went a bit darker with his recommendation of “End Times,” by Peter Turchin.

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The Little Palermo™ by Scott R. Anderson

1 oz. brandy

1 oz. cold brew concentrate

3/4 oz. Mr. Black coffee liqueur

3/4 oz. Averna

1/4 oz. rich demerara syrup

2 dashes chicory bitters

Shake vigorously over ice, double strain into a glass, express lemon oil over the top.

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Lawfare Senior Editor Eugenia Lostri sat down with Winnona DeSombre Bernsen, nonresident fellow at the Atlantic Council and founder of the hacker conference DistrictCon, and Nina Alli, Executive Director of the Biohacking Village, to talk about their recent report, “It Takes a Village: Spotlighting Practitioner Driven-Cybersecurity Successes and Future Opportunities.” The report collects the insights of seven cybersecurity villages and outlines the value they can bring to security research and how policymakers can benefit from engaging with them.

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Jessica Pishko, an independent journalist and lawyer who writes about the criminal legal system with a focus on the political power of law enforcement officials, joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to discuss her new book, “The Highest Law in the Land: How the Unchecked Power of Sheriffs Threatens Democracy.”

Pishko discussed the roots of the constitutional sheriffs movement, broke down several myths and realities of the office, and explained the immense appeal sheriffs have for the far-right.

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On today’s podcast, Lawfare Senior Editor and Brookings Senior Fellow Molly Reynolds is joined by Quinta Jurecic, a Fellow at Brookings and Senior Editor at Lawfare, and Ryan Reilly, Justice Reporter at NBC News, to discuss a long-awaited report on Jan. 6 from the Department of Justice’s Inspector General, as well as a new report from House Republicans focusing on the pipe bombs planted outside the Democratic and Republican National Committees as part of the violence that day. They explore what the reports do—and do not—cover, how they fit in with other investigative work on the insurrection, and what the overall landscape of accountability looks like on the precipice of President Trump’s return to office.

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From January 5, 2023: It was a few months ago that something went boom under the sea and the Nord Stream 2 pipelines were severely damaged. Everyone assumed the perpetrator was the Russian Federation because of the Russian Federation’s war in Ukraine, and because the pipeline carried natural gas from Russia to Europe. But, months have gone by and evidence that Russia was behind the Nord Stream attacks has not surfaced.

This was the subject of a lengthy article in the Washington Post, the lead author of which was Shane Harris. Lawfare editor-in-chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Shane to discuss the article, what we know about the Nord Stream attacks, and what we know about who could be behind them.

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From April 8, 2022: Last week on Lawfare Live, Jacob Schulz sat down with Andrew Mines, a research fellow at George Washington University’s Program on Extremism. Mines helps lead the Program on Extremism's efforts to keep track of criminal charges resulting from the Jan. 6 Capitol Hill siege. They talked about the U.S military’s efforts to counter extremism within its ranks. Mines is the recent author of a Lawfare piece on the subject, and they talked through the history of the problem, the history of Defense Department efforts to fix it and where the department is still coming up short.

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On today's podcast, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett is joined by Brian Hoxie to get an update on the Uyghur Forced Labor Protection Act (UFLPA). The legislation was passed in 2021 in response to reports that the Chinese government was committing major human rights abuses against its Uyghur population, including disappearances and forced labor. Three years later, where do things stand?

Hoxie is the director of the Forced Labor Division at U.S. Customs and Border Protection's Office of Trade, which is the office charged with enforcing the law. He explained what the law does, how it's implemented on the ground, and what the U.S. government is doing to combat forced labor.

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It's time for Lawfare's annual "Ask Us Anything" podcast.

You called in with your questions, and Lawfare contributors have answers! Benjamin Wittes, Kevin Frazier, Quinta Jurecic, Eugenia Lostri, Alan Rozenshtein, Scott R. Anderson, Natalie Orpett, Amelia Wilson, Anna Bower, and Roger Parloff addressed questions on everything from presidential pardons to the risks of AI to the domestic deployment of the military.

Thank you for your questions. And as always, thank you for listening.

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For the podcast’s annual end-of-year episode, Scott sat down with co-hosts emeritus Alan Rozenshtein and Quinta Jurecic to talk over listener-submitted topics and object lessons, including:

• How will the collapse of the Assad regime impact the region? And can the United States help create a secular, democratic Syria?
• How is the pending TikTok ban even enforceable (if it is)?
• What national security story from 2024 deserved more attention?
• Won’t the Fifth Circuit’s recent Tornado Cash opinion simply lead the Treasury Department to sanction the cryptocurrency Ethereum as a whole?
• What are the most underrated threats to U.S. national security in the last half of this decade?
• What will be the Trump administration’s first major national security misstep?
• How worried should the United States be about the BRIC countries’ recent discussions of forming their own reserve currency?

For object lessons, Trevor recommended insightful indie video games for our three hosts based on their interests: “Bury Me, My Love” for Scott; “We. The Revolution” for Alan; and “Not for Broadcast” for Quinta. Thomas endorsed the podcast and associated media company “Popular Front” on uncovered conflict issues. Keith threw his support behind the podcast “It Did Happen Here” about Portland’s anti-racist skinhead movement. Connor recommended the books “The Queen of Cuba,” by Peter Lapp, and “The President’s Book of Secrets,” by Lawfare alum David Priess, as well as the docuseries “FBI True.” Keenan followed up with another book recommendation, Daniel Immewahr’s “How to Hide an Empire.” And Liz endorsed Gayle Tzemach Lemmon’s “Ashley’s War,” about women who deployed to Afghanistan as cultural support teams for special operations units.

And that’s it for 2024! But don’t worry, Rational Security and the whole Lawfare team will be back with you in the new year to help make sense of what’s to come in national security in 2025—now back at our old release day and time, at midday on Wednesdays (D.C.-time) every week!

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From August 8, 2023: Just weeks ago, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit upheld the life sentence of a Yemeni national serving out his time at the Guantanamo Bay detention center. He had appealed this life sentence, in part on the grounds that his conviction was based on evidence obtained by torture. Meanwhile, at the Guantanamo military commissions, another detainee tried to appeal charges against him on the basis that torture-obtained evidence was used in his referral for trial by the military commissions—but in June, the body that reviews referrals for trials at Guantanamo denied this appeal. He and his co-defendants are currently set to have pre-trial hearings in October. 

All of this is happening despite the fact that in 2022, in a case about a different Guantanamo detainee, the Biden administration’s Justice Department committed to a reinterpretation of a key statute that blocks the use of torture-obtained evidence in Guantanamo litigation and reaffirmed that it would not try to admit statements that the detainee gave while in CIA custody. 

So how and why is it that torture-obtained evidence still seems to be being used in certain GTMO cases? To understand the issues, Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han spoke to Scott Roehm, Director of Global Policy and Advocacy at the Center for Victims of Torture, and an Adjunct Professor of Law at Georgetown Law School. They talked about the history of torture evidence at GTMO, dove into a few cases in context of the Justice Department’s 2022 re-interpretation, and discussed what this all might mean for other GTMO detainees moving forward.  

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After more than three years, Chatter is ending its run. In this episode, Shane and David reflect on the diverse range of topics at the frontiers of national security that this podcast has explored—from spy fiction to lessons of history, from climate change to the visual and musical arts, and from sports and culture to the practice of intelligence.

Along the way, they refer back to many of the podcast’s brilliant guests while lamenting conversations yet unrealized and specific issues yet unaddressed. And they finally ask *each other* several questions from the Chatterbox before closing it. (Forever?)

Works mentioned in this episode: Many too many to list. 

Goodbye, and thank you for listening.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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From February 10, 2023: International law has been under significant stress in the last decade as a result of global populism, the rise of China, the war in Ukraine, and the challenges of the pandemic, climate change, and cybersecurity threats, among many others. To discuss why international law seems to be failing in important respects and what to do about it, Jack Goldsmith sat down with Paul Stephan, the John C. Jeffries, Jr., Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of Virginia, and author of the new book, “The World Crisis and International Law: The Knowledge Economy and the Battle for the Future.” They discussed whether international law is truly failing, and if so, how; Stephan's claim that the accelerating pace of technological change induced by the knowledge economy best explains international law’s unraveling; why the highest courts of important states are increasingly rejecting international law and the orders of international courts and tribunals; and Stephan's bottom-up prescriptions for these problems.

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Daniel Holz, professor at the University of Chicago in the Departments of Physics, Astronomy & Astrophysics, Chair of the Science and Security Board of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, and the founding director of the Existential Risk Laboratory (XLab), joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to discuss existential risks, the need for greater awareness and study of those risks, and the purpose of the Doomsday Clock operated by the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.

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From December 14, 2021: Syria’s decade-long civil war has left the state and economy shells of their former selves. But a new industry is stepping in to fill the void: the manufacture and export of illicit drugs, specifically Captagon, a type of amphetamine that has a growing global market. To better understand Syria’s emerging role in the global Captagon trade, Scott R. Anderson sat down with Caroline Rose of the New Lines Institute, who has been tracking this industry's development for several years and is preparing to release a major report on the topic. They discussed the origins of Captagon, how it came to Syria, and how it is being used by the Assad regime, its allies and their proxies across the region.

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From December 13, 2023: You may have heard of Javier Milei, Argentina’s new president, thanks to some of his eccentricities, like his five cloned dogs or his reliance on a chainsaw prop to illustrate the need to cut public expenditure. But Milei was able to harness the dissatisfaction with a system that has left the country with 150% inflation and over 40% of the population under the line of poverty. Now, the self described anarcho-capitalist libertarian will attempt to turn the economy around with shocking fiscal adjustment.

To discuss this inflection point in Argentina, Lawfare’s Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri spoke with Ana Iparraguirre, a partner at consulting firm GBAO and a frequent commentator on leading Latin American media outlets. They talked about Milei’s rise to power, if and how he can deliver on his campaign promises, and what that would even mean for the Argentinian people.

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John Bridgeland, Executive Chair & CEO of More Perfect & former Director of the White House Domestic Policy Council & National Service Czar, joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to examine America’s general preparedness for a large-scale conflict and its culture of service (or lack thereof). The two also discuss ongoing efforts to reform and expand military, national, and public service opportunities.

National Commission on Military, National, and Public Service Report: https://docs.house.gov/meetings/AS/AS00/20210519/112680/HHRG-117-AS00-Wstate-HeckJ-20210519-SD001.pdf

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At a recent conference co-hosted by Lawfare and the Georgetown Institute for Law and Technology, Fordham law professor Chinny Sharma moderated a conversation on "Old Laws, New Tech: How Traditional Legal Doctrines Tackle AI,” between NYU law professor Catherine Sharkey, Ohio State University law professor Bryan Choi, and NYU and Cornell Tech postdoctoral fellow Kat Geddes.

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From April 9, 2016: This week on the podcast, we welcome Eric Schwartz, the Dean of the Hubert H. Humphrey School of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota. Schwartz previously served as U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Population, Refugees, and Migration. In our conversation, he sketches the key aspects of U.S. refugee policy, explaining how it both protects the security of the United States and at times undermines its ability to accept refugees. Schwartz, who believes the United States has an interest in alleviating the Syrian refugee crisis, outlines what a coherent refugee policy would look like, and argues that the reforms must go beyond simply accepting more refugees.

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Carmen Medina defies simple description. She spent more than 30 years at the CIA, rising to the leadership team of the Directorate of Intelligence, despite her iconoclasticism and vociferous evangelism of new technologies. Since retiring more than a decade ago, she has co-written a book about rebelling within bureaucracy--and advocated the exploration of precognition for intelligence purposes.

She joined David Priess for a wide and deep conversation about her analytic and managerial career, the process and pitfalls of analytic coordination, cooperation between US and UK intelligence, the CIA's incorporation of publish-when-ready technology in the late 1990s, the downside of extensive editorial review of analytic products, the importance of including more intuition in intelligence analysis, why precognition should be taken seriously, and more.

Works mentioned in this episode:

The book Rebels At Work by Lois Kelly and Carmen Medina

The book Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

The article by Carmen Medina, "The Potential of Integrating Intelligence and Intuition," Cipher Brief, June 10, 2022.

The book American Cosmic by D. W. Pasulka

The book Orbiting the Giant Hairball by Gordon MacKenzie

The book How To Be a Renaissance Woman by Jill Burke

The book 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric Cline

The book The Infidel and the Professor by Dennis Rasmussen

The book The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley

The book The Chronoliths by Robert Charles Wilson

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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From July 31, 2023: This past week, the House Oversight Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs held a spirited hearing on an unusual topic: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, or UAPs, the more correct term for what are commonly called UFOs, or Unidentified Flying Objects. The witnesses included two military veterans who claimed to have borne eyewitness to UAPs, and an intelligence community whistleblower who claims to have heard secondhand from contacts about a range of government activity relating to extraterrestrials, including the recovery of alien remains and crashed aircraft. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the witnesses’ testimony has triggered an array of strong reactions, from outright scorn and disbelief to an array of boosters eager to tie it into their own worldviews and conspiracy theories. 

To talk through the revelations at this hearing and the debate over UAPs more broadly, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with veteran Washington Post national security reporter Shane Harris, who has closely followed the debate over UAPs for many years. They talked about how the witnesses’ testimony fits into the broader universe of reports relating to UAPs, what parts reflect serious policy problems and which don't, and how to separate the wheat from the chaff in the broader UAP debate.

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On today's podcast, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett talks with Michael Posner, a professor of business and human rights at New York University, about the landmark verdict last month in Al-Shimari v. CACI. The case involved claims against a government contractor for its role in the abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib detention facility in Iraq in 2004. It became the first case of its kind to make it to trial—and now a jury has returned a verdict finding the company liable and imposing $42 million in damages. They discuss how the case will affect private companies, government contractors, and the future of human rights litigation. 

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Please note that this episode contains content that some people may find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised. 

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From April 14, 2023: Over the past few years, TikTok has become a uniquely polarizing social media platform. On the one hand, millions of users, especially those in their teens and twenties, love the app. On the other hand, the government is concerned that TikTok's vulnerability to pressure from the Chinese Communist Party makes it a serious national security threat. There's even talk of banning the app altogether. But would that be legal? In particular, does the First Amendment allow the government to ban an application that’s used by millions to communicate every day?

On this episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem, Matt Perault, director of the Center on Technology Policy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and Alan Z. Rozenshtein, Lawfare Senior Editor and Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota, spoke with Ramya Krishnan, a staff attorney at the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University, and Mary-Rose Papendrea, the Samuel Ashe Distinguished Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of North Carolina School of Law, to think through the legal and policy implications of a TikTok ban.

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From June 15, 2021: A spree of stories has emerged over the last week or so that the Justice Department under the prior administration obtained phone and email records of several journalists, several members of Congress and staffers, and even family members. It has provoked a mini scandal, calls for investigation, howls of rage and serious questions. To discuss it all, Benjamin Wittes sat down with Gabe Rottman of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, former FBI agent Pete Strzok, Lawfare senior editor Quinta Jurecic and Berkeley law professor and Lawfare contributing editor Orin Kerr. They talked about what we really know about these stories and what happened in these investigations. Was it all legal? Was it legitimate? How should it be investigated and by whom? And what does it mean that none of the prior attorneys general or deputy attorneys general seem to remember it?

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Adam Thierer, Senior Fellow for the Technology & Innovation team at R Street, joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to examine a lengthy, detailed report issued by the Bipartisan House Task Force on AI. Thierer walks through his own analysis of the report and considers some counterarguments to his primary concern that the report did not adequately address the developing patchwork of state AI regulations.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Anna Bower and Natalie Orpett and Lawfare Contributing Editor Michel Paradis to talk about the week’s biggest national security news stories, including:

• “A Justice Delayed Still Has Justice on the Mind.” After weeks of waiting, New York state court judge Justice Juan Merchan has finally become the first judge to apply the Supreme Court’s Trump v. United States immunity decision, holding that incoming President Donald Trump’s convictions under New York state law may stand and did not unduly rely on conduct for which he is immune. How persuasive is his ruling? And what can it tell us about the future of both Donald Trump’s criminal case and the Supreme Court’s immunity holding?
• “A Break in the Case.” Tectonic shifts in Syrian politics over the past few weeks that has led, among other consequences, to the release of thousands of former prisoners, have brought back to the fore the case of Austin Tice, an American journalist who has been missing in Syria for more than a decade. Believed to have been held by the Assad regime before its collapse, some are concerned that he might have been injured or killed during Israeli airstrikes over the past several weeks. What does Tice’s case tell us about the challenges of wrongful detention cases like his? And what should we make of allegations that the Biden administration is not doing enough to bring him back?
• “Gym, Tan, Low-flying Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.” The state of New Jersey has a new signature activity, as Americans and politicians of all stripes have been voicing concern over reports of mysterious drones of unknown origins operating in the state’s skies. What might explain this phenomenon? And what should we make of the reactions around it? 

For object lessons, Anna recommended “Intermezzo,” by Sally Rooney as a read over the holiday. Natalie Orpett endorsed Washington, D.C.’s Eastern Market as a worthwhile visit for holiday shopping, and Scott doubled down with another local recommendation of Middleburg, VA, as a holiday wonderland not to be missed. And Michel wrapped things up with a final endorsement of Weike Wang’s dryly comedic book “Rental House,” for those needing to commiserate over managing family relations over the holiday.

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For today’s episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Ashley Deeks, a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law, and Kristen Eichensehr, also a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law, but currently a visiting professor at Harvard Law School, to discuss their forthcoming law review article, “Frictionless Government and Foreign Relations,” which focuses on the dangers that can arise in moments where there appears to be broad consensus on a particular set of policies.

They discussed what constitutes frictionless government, where it might exist on the present policy terrain, the risks such circumstances can entail, and strategies policymakers can embrace for managing them.

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In response to the compromise of telecommunication companies by the Chinese hacker group Salt Typhoon, senior officials from the FBI and CISA recommended that American citizens use encrypted messaging apps to minimize the chances of their communications being intercepted. This marks a departure in law enforcement’s position on the use of encrypted communications. 

Susan Landau, Professor of Cyber Security and Policy in Computer Science at Tufts University, and Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota Law School and Research Director and Senior Editor at Lawfare, sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Eugenia Lostri to talk about what the recent FBI recommendation in favor of the use of encrypted messaging apps means for the “Going Dark” debate. 

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Shane Harris makes no secret about his love for the film version of this Cold War submarine thriller, based on the Tom Clancy novel. It’s his favorite movie. So he was delighted to welcome fellow obsessive Katherine Voyles to the podcast. A PhD in English, Voyles writes about national security in culture, as well as the culture of national security. She and Shane talked about why they love the movie, their favorite scenes and characters, and how the story influenced--maybe even created--an entire genre of fiction. They also discussed why it is, actually, a Christmas movie, and their mutual admiration for the martini. 

Voyles’s writing has appeared in in the Los Angeles Review of Books, Foreign Policy, Task &

Purpose, Small Wars Journal, and War on the Rocks. She also works for the Department of Defense. 

In addition to the greatest movie of all time, essays, TV shows, books, and restaurants discussed in this episode include: 

Colson Whitehead’s “The Way We Live Now” https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/11/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-11-11-01-lost-and-found.html 

Deutschland 83 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4445154/ 

Garrett Graff’s The Only Plane in the Sky https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Only-Plane-in-the-Sky/Garrett-M-Graff/9781501182211 

Lauren Wilkinson’s American Spy https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/253471/american-spy-by-lauren-wilkinson/ 

Saltie Girl https://www.saltiegirl.com/ 

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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CNN correspondent Elle Reeve has spent the last decade reporting on extremism in the United States. Her book, "Black Pill: How I Witnessed the Darkest Corners of the Internet Come to Life, Poison Society and Capture American Politics" provides an insider's glimpse into the "insidious"—and underestimated—world of alt-right internet culture that is now at the center of the Republican Party under Donald Trump. 

Lawfare Associate Editor Katherine Pompilio sat down with Reeve to discuss her investigative reporting and "Black Pill," incels, political violence, memes, what it's like to build working relationship with alt-right figures, the 2017 Charlottesville Unite the Right Rally, Jan. 6, the 2024 presidential election, and more.

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Sam Manning, Senior Research Fellow at GovAI, joins Kevin Frazier, Assistant Professor at St. Thomas University College of Law and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to discuss his research on different options to share AI's benefits at the international level. The two also explore Sam's analysis of the incentives that may steer adoption of different benefits sharing strategies and his plans for future AI research. 

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From October 19, 2019: It's been a horrible week in northeastern Syria. The U.S. abandoned its Kurdish allies after the president had a conversation by phone with Turkish President Erdogan and pulled the plug on the stabilizing U.S. presence in the region. The Turkish government began a major incursion over the border, which has produced significant casualties and major questions about ISIS detainees in Kurdish custody.

To talk through it all, we pulled together quite a group. In the first half of the podcast, Benjamin Wittes spoke with Gayle Tzemach Lemmon, an adjunct senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and Scott R. Anderson and Dan Byman, both of Brookings and Lawfare. In the second half, Ben sat down with Oula A. Alrifai, a fellow with the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and Leah West, a Lecturer of International Affairs at Carleton University in Canada.

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In a live conversation on December 12, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Scott Anderson, Middle East Institute Senior Fellow Charles Lister, and Syrian pro-democracy activist Ammar Abdulhamid to discuss Syrian rebels overthrowing the Bashar al-Assad regime, what the current situation on the ground is, what the reactions of foreign government’s has been, and more.

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At a virtual panel conversation co-hosted by Lawfare and NYU's Center for Technology Policy, center Director Scott Brennen moderated a conversation between Lawfare Senior Editor and University of Minnesota law professor Alan Rozenshtein, University of North Carolina law professor Mary-Rose Papandrea, and Georgetown law professor Anupam Chander, about the recent D.C. Circuit decision upholding the TikTok divestment-or-ban law and what that means for the future of both TikTok and the First Amendment.

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This week, Scott was joined by his Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes, Eugenia Lostri, and Tyler McBrien to break down the week's big national security news, including:

• “The Long Road to Damascus.” Syria’s Assad regime collapsed suddenly last week in the face of a rebel offensive, ending thirteen years of revolution. What comes next, however, is anyone’s guess. How will this shift impact regional security? And how is the incoming Trump administration likely to respond?
• “Pardonez-Moi.” President-elect Donald Trump’s decision to nominate unabashed loyalist Kash Patel—a person who has published a book listing political enemies he thinks should be prosecuted by the Justice Department—for the soon-to-be-vacant position of FBI Director has renewed concerns that the incoming Trump administration will use the Justice Department to prosecute his political enemies. President Biden may have responded in part by pardoning his son Hunter for a wide range of conduct—and some are arguing he should extend similar protections to others the Trump administration may target. How real is the threat of such targeted prosecution? And are preemptive pardons the right protection?
• “Not in Kansas Anymore.” The Fifth Circuit recently issued what may prove to be a landmark sanctions decision, holding that certain Tornado Cash automated cryptocurrency contractual mechanisms sanctioned by the Treasury Department do not constitute “property” within the meaning of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and thus cannot be sanctioned. It’s also one of the first appellate court decisions to apply the Supreme Court’s recent Loper Bright decision, which ended Chevron deference to agency interpretations of ambiguous statutes, in the national security context. How persuasive is the court’s opinion? And what impact will it have on U.S. policy in this area?

For object lessons, Ben endorsed(?) Kash Patel's three childrens' books as confirmation must-reads. Eugenia amped up everyones' holiday parties with a surefire recipe for maple cookies. Scott recommended the Lion's Tail as a surprisingly seasonal tiki-ish cocktail. And Tyler celebrated transition season with three recommended political profiles, specifically of Kash Patel, Ron Desantis, and Donald Trump circa 1997.

Also, Rational Security will be saying goodbye to 2024 in its traditional fashion: by discussing listener-submitted topics and object lessons! To submit yours, call in to (202) 743-5831 to leave a voicemail or email rationalsecurity@lawfaremedia.org. Just do it by COB on December 18!

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On November 28, Georgia Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze announced that he was suspending Georgia’s accession process to the European Union. In the weeks since, thousands of protestors have demonstrated in the capital city, Tbilisi, and across the country. 

Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey sat down with Dr. Beka Kobakhidze, Professor and Co-chair of MA Program in Modern History of Georgia at Ilia State University, to discuss the protests, Russia’s growing influence in the country and the broader region, and the violence the government has used to crack down on the protests.

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Ukraine’s defense industry has grown substantially after Russia’s full-scale invasion. But it also suffered from a huge domestic burden—a ban on arms exports, which forced companies to close down or relocate abroad. Ukrainian lawmaker Halyna Yanchenko sits down with Lawfare Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina to explain why exporting Ukrainian weapons will benefit Ukraine and global security.

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International politics and security expert Dr. Ben Tallis, who now directs the Berlin-based Democratic Strategy Initiative, joined David Priess to discuss the challenges of German grand strategy since 1945, the country's musical culture in the 1950s and 1960s, the origins and evolution of Kraftwerk and its members' effort to reconceptualize German identity, the band's influence on musicians globally, U2 and post-Cold War Europe, how Germany became the most respected country in the world by 2020, Chancellor Angela Merkel's missed opportunities to reconceptualize Germany's international role, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and Chancellor Olaf Scholz's Zeitenwende speech, German rearmament since 2022 compared to Poland, the role of chancellor in the German system, the roster of future German leaders, and whether countries in Central and Eastern Europe would have enough confidence in German resolve to follow more assertive leadership from Berlin.

Mentioned in this episode:

Official website of the band Kraftwerk

The Democratic Strategy Initiative, at www.democratic-strategy.net

The journal article by Benjamin Tallis, "Kraftwerk and the International 'Re-Birth of Germany:' Multiplicity, Identity, and Difference in Music and International Relations," in Cooperation and Conflict, Vol. 57:3 (2022)

The online article by Roderick Parkes, Florence Schimmel, and Benjamin Tallis, "Germany Needs a Strategy--Grand and Democratic," in Internationale Politik Quarterly, January 16, 2024

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Jack Goldsmith sits down with Glenn Fine, the former principal deputy Inspector General of the Department of Defense and former Acting IG of the Department of Defense, and author of the new book, “Watchdogs: Inspectors General and the Battle for Honest and Accountable Government.” They discuss the history of inspectors general and early constitutional concerns about the role that inspectors general play, Fine’s experiences at both the Department of Justice and the Department of Defense, the 2022 inspector general reforms and their significance, and Fine’s own proposed reforms to improve inspector general oversight.

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Kevin Xu, founder of Interconnected Capital and author of the Interconnected newsletter, joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to analyze China’s AI ambitions, its current AI capacities, and the likely effect of updated export controls on the nation’s AI efforts. The two pay particular attention to the different AI development strategies being deployed by the U.S. and China and how those differences reflect the AI priorities of the respective nations.

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From May 11, 2021: David Ignatius, a columnist for the Washington Post, recently ran a lengthy column about the machinations of Kash Patel in the executive branch during the presidential transition. Patel, a former staffer for Devin Nunes, held a variety of positions in the months before Donald Trump left office, and Donald Trump considered him for a variety of other positions. It's a remarkable story that raises a whole series of questions that Jack Goldsmith has been asking on Lawfare for some time. Benjamin Wittes sat down with Ignatius and Goldsmith to discuss the article. What was Patel up to in the final days of the Trump administration? What does it say about the way the executive branch functioned under Donald Trump? And what does it say about the activities of the deep state?

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This episode of “Lawfare Live: “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations” was recorded on December 5 in front of a live audience on Youtube and Zoom.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien, and Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett about Jack Smith’s motions to dismiss the federal prosecutions of Donald Trump, where the state cases stand, and so much more for the last regular edition of this series. Find the Lawfare auction here.

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For today’s podcast, Lawfare General Counsel and Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Joel Braunold, Managing Director of the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace, for the latest in their series of podcast conversations on aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This time, they focused on what might be one of the most consequential developments in recent memory: Donald Trump’s return to the White House.

They discussed who seems likely to steer policy toward the conflict in the incoming Trump administration, how the approach may differ from Trump’s last stint in the White House, and what it all may mean for Gaza, the West Bank, and the broader region.

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This week, Scott was joined by his Lawfare colleagues Eric Ciaramella and Anastasiia Lapatina, as well as special guest Kyiv Independent reporter Francis Farrell, for an episode committed to one big topic: what Trump’s return to the White House might mean for Ukraine. They tackled the issue in three parts:

• “What Condition My Attrition Is In.” By most accounts, after more than two years of fighting, the conflict in Ukraine has come to look very much like a war of attrition. How do Ukrainians feel about the state of the conflict and the prospects looking forward? What steps are the outgoing Biden administration taking to change the calculus—and what impact might they still have, if any?
• “New Boss, Same as the Old Boss.” Donald Trump’s return to the White House promises a sea change in how the United States has approached the conflict in Ukraine. What do his early national security appointments—and engagements with, among others, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky—tell us about his plans? And where do they seem likely to lead?
• “Flipping the Board.” Trump’s election—and whatever outcome he is able to bring about in Ukraine—has the potential to reset the strategic environment in Europe (and the U.S. strategic relationship with Russia) more generally. What might regional security—and security for Ukraine specifically—look like by 2028?

For object lessons, Nastya recommended Catherine Belton’s new book, “Putin’s People,” on the return and rise to power of the KGB. Eric gave a belated endorsement for the Oscar-winning South Korean film “Parasite,” and urged folks to watch it as a celebration of the democratic resilience South Korea demonstrated this week. Scott plugged the holiday variety show he was attending that evening and urged listeners to welcome the season with Aimee Mann’s “One More Drifter in the Snow.” And Francis recommended GeoGuessr, the geolocation game that has taken the KI newsroom by storm.

Rational Security will be saying goodbye to 2024 in its traditional fashion: by discussing listener-submitted topics and object lessons! To submit yours, call in to (202) 743-5831 to leave a voicemail or email rationalsecurity@lawfaremedia.org. Just do it by COB on December 18!

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Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Andrew Yeo, Senior Fellow in the Foreign Policy Program and SK-Korea Foundation Chair of the Center for Asia Policy Studies at the Brookings Institution, to talk about the current turmoil in South Korea. Within about 48 hours, there was a declaration of martial law, the National Assembly convened to rescind the declaration of martial law, South Korean President Yoon Suk Yeol accepted it, and now he faces impeachment. Yeo breaks down what’s going on and what it all might mean for the future of U.S.-South Korea relations in a second Trump administration.

You can watch a video version of their conversation here.

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Ukraine has been pursuing NATO membership for many years. But what realistic options does it have in light of Russia’s full-scale invasion? Historian and author of a book about tensions between the NATO and Russia “Not One Inch,” Mary Sarotte, sits down with Lawfare Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina to describe what lessons Ukraine can take from the cases of Norway and West Germany.

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Sherri Goodman was the first Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Environmental Security and has worked on issues around climate change, the environment, and security for more than 35 years. She joined David Priess to discuss her work on the staff of the Senate Armed Service Committee starting in the 1980s, her impressions of Senator Sam Nunn, her duties as the first Deputy Under Secretary of Defense (Environmental Security), the campaign to clean up the Defense Department's nuclear-related facilities, her visits to Russia in the 1990s, the threat climate change poses to military facilities, the US military as an environmental crisis responder, how climate change and environmental concerns have changed military training, climate change as multiplier of opportunities as well as a multiplier of threats, and more.

Works mentioned in this episode:

Threat Multiplier by Sherri Goodman

Military Responses to Climate Hazards (MiRCH) Tracker, at the Center for Climate & Security

New Cold Wars by David Sanger with Mary Brooks

Orbital by Samantha Harvey

The Heat and the Fury by Peter Schwartzstein

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor and Georgetown professor Daniel Byman sits down with Charles Lister, Director of Syria and Countering Terrorism & Extremism Programs at the Middle East Institute for an update on the Syrian opposition taking Aleppo and the prospects for the civil war going forward. They discuss the status of the Syrian conflict; the nature of the key group, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham; why conflict happened now; and what might happen going forward.

You can watch a video version of their conversation here.

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Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff speaks with Claire Meynial, U.S. correspondent for the French news weekly Le Point, about her recent book, “La Guerre des Amériques,” or “The War of the Americas.” Meynial discusses how she came to write her book about the political divisions in America, based on hundreds of interviews across the country over the past three years. They discuss the results of the 2024 election, Jan. 6, Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio, Jan. 6 defendant Guy Reffitt and his family, the New York criminal cases against Trump, and how the French public responded to all these events.

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From July 10, 2018: #AbolishICE is the hashtag that has proliferated all over Twitter. Anger over the family separation policy of the Trump administration has many people doubting whether the agency that does interior immigration enforcement is up to a humane performance of its task. Paul Rosenzweig, former policy guru at DHS where he supervised immigration matters, and Carrie Cordero, who has been actively engaged on the subject recently, joined Benjamin Wittes to discuss the substance of our immigration laws. Would abolishing ICE actually make a difference, or would it just be renaming the problem with three other letters?

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From April 23, 2019: Michael Anton, former Trump administration national security official and a research fellow at Hillsdale College, has published an essay in Foreign Policy explaining what he calls the 'Trump Doctrine' on foreign policy. Recently, Anton sat down with Jack Goldsmith to discuss the new article and the philosophy behind Trump's foreign policy, particularly with respect to liberal internationalism and international institutions.

They discussed the administration's foreign policy successes and failures, how it's similar to and different from prior administrations in substance and in rhetoric, and whether the president's style and aversion to diplomatic norms inhibits the substance of his foreign policy.

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Despite the Russian launch of a new ballistic missile against Ukraine, the ATACMS not being a game-changer, and a front that is eroding in several key areas, Ukrainians are actually optimistic about the incoming Trump administration. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Lawfare Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina and Eric Ciaramella of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace to talk about all of these issues and more.

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From March 12, 2019: As the nation braces for the forthcoming end of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into President Trump and his associates, The Lawfare Podcast decided to take a look back at the complete history of special prosecutors.

Benjamin Wittes sat down with Andrew Coan, a professor of law at the James E. Rogers College of Law at the University of Arizona. Coan recently published "Prosecuting the President," which traces the history of how special prosecutors and counsels work to keep the executive branch accountable for its actions. Ben and Andrew discussed the book, the Teapot Dome Scandal, the Whiskey Ring, and what all of that might mean for the future of special counsels.

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Molly Reynolds, Senior Fellow at Brookings and Senior Editor at Lawfare, sits down with Mike Stern, a lawyer specializing in congressional legal issues and former Senior Counsel to the U.S. House of Representatives, and Donald Sherman, Executive Director and Chief Counsel at CREW, to discuss the Senate confirmation process and expectations for congressional oversight in the 119th Congress. They discuss the tools available to the Senate now and after the start of the new Congress in January, legal questions related to President-elect Trump’s potential plans for recess appointments, and what issues related to congressional oversight to watch next year.

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Rachel Shelden is Associate Professor of History and Director of the Richards Civil War Center at Penn State University. She joined David Priess to talk about the disputed presidential election of 1876 and how the political system found a way to avoid widespread violence and another civil war while resolving it in 1877. They discussed Abraham Lincoln's huge impact on kids growing up in Illinois, the status of Reconstruction by 1876, US political culture in the late 19th century, Rutherford Hayes and Samuel Tilden, what happened on election day and night, how Congress handled contradictory election returns from three states, the creation and operation of the special commission created to resolve the issue, how Hayes won, what we can take away from 1876-77, and the importance of Constitutional creativity and flexibility.

Works mentioned in this episode:

"Americans worry about 2020 being another 2000, but the real worry is another 1876," by Rachel Shelden and Erik B. Alexander, Washington Post, October 20, 2000.

Washington Brotherhood by Rachel Shelden (2013)

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Chris Mirasola, Assistant Professor of Law at the University of Houston Law Center, to discuss the legal and practical considerations surrounding a president’s ability to deploy the military at the U.S. southern border, particularly in light of President-elect Trump’s recent endorsement of “declar[ing] a national emergency” in order to “use military assets” for “a mass deportation program.” They discuss the implications of a national emergency declaration for immigration enforcement, the existing legal framework and historical context, and concerns about using the National Guard in a law enforcement function. They also talk about the logistics of building detention facilities, the Insurrection Act as a significant legal tool that could expand military authority in domestic contexts, and more.

For more on this topic, read Chris’s recent Lawfare article, “How Can Trump Deploy the Military at the Southern Border?”

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At a recent conference co-hosted by Lawfare and the Georgetown Institute for Law and Technology, Georgetown law professor Paul Ohm moderated a conversation on "AI Regulation and Free Speech: Navigating the Government’s Tightrope,” between Lawfare Senior Editor Alan Rozenshtein, Fordham law professor Chinny Sharma, and Eugene Volokh, a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

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From July 27, 2023: Last month, Brazil’s highest electoral court found that former President Jair Bolsonaro had abused his political power in the 2022 elections because of his conduct in a meeting with foreign ambassadors in Brasília in July 2022. For this violation of the country’s election laws, the electoral court banned Bolsonaro from seeking public office until 2030.

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Emilio Peluso Neder Meyer, Professor of Constitutional Law at the Federal University of Minas Gerais, Brazil, and Thomas Bustamante, Professor of Legal Theory at the Federal University of Minas Gerais, Brazil, to discuss Brazil’s search for accountability and justice in the aftermath of the coup attempt on Jan. 8, why the electoral court’s ruling was not so much a legal innovation as a mere application of existing laws, and the significance of President Lula’s decision not to rely on the military in his government’s response. They also discussed what’s next for Bolsonarismo.

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From June 30, 2023: On Thursday, South Africa’s Department of International Relations confirmed it would host the 15th BRICS Summit in August. Normally, this wouldn’t make the news. But because South Africa is a signatory to the International Criminal Court, the country is obligated under international law to arrest one of the summit’s invitees—Russian President Vladimir Putin—the moment he sets foot in Johannesburg.

This presents South Africa with what Nosmot Gbadamosi has dubbed a “Putin problem.” 

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Nosmot Gbadamosi, a multimedia journalist and the writer of Foreign Policy’s weekly Africa Brief, to discuss this diplomatic dilemma, why US-South Africa relations have withered in recent months, and the incoherent Russia-Ukraine “peace mission” led by President Cyril Ramaphosa just weeks ago. They also discussed what the late Eusebius McKaiser has called South Africa’s “nonsensical nonalignment” since the Russian invasion of Ukraine last year and what nonaligment even means in light of the war.

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After more than a year of pleas from Kyiv, the U.S. finally let Ukraine use Western long-range weapons for attacks inside Russia. Lawfare Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina sits down with Fabian Hoffman, a doctoral research fellow at the University of Oslo, to talk about the strategic and tactical effects of such attacks, what’s behind the timing of this decision, and why it took so long for the U.S. to finally change course.

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This week, Scott sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Molly Reynolds and Alan Rozenshtein, and with University of Houston Law Center Assistant Professor of Law Chris Mirasola, to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Troops, There It Is.” President-elect Donald Trump raised eyebrows this week when he suggested that he intended to declare a national emergency and use U.S. soldiers to implement his planned deportation of undocumented migrants from the United States—the first of many potential domestic uses of the military some fear he will pursue. But does the president have the authority to use the military in this way? And is a(nother) national emergency really necessary?
• “Break It ‘Til You Make It.” Some have expressed serious doubt as to whether the incoming Trump administration’s flurry of highly controversial nominees for senior positions in government will be able to successfully make its way through even the Republican-held Senate. But doing so may not be necessary, as Trump’s allies are reportedly exploring a legal scheme by which he can use a never-before-used authority to adjourn Congress to force the Senate into an extended recess, and then appoint his preferred nominees as recess appointments. How plausible is this legal theory? And what role is it likely to play in Trump’s confirmation strategy?
• “Rolling Back the Clock.” While he was once one of TikTok’s greatest enemies, President-elect Trump has changed his tune: on the campaign trail, he came out against the ban on the controversial social media platform passed by Congress, which is sent to go into effect early next year if its China-associated owners do not divest. Will Trump try to come to TikTok’s rescue? And if so, what could he do?

For object lessons, Alan recommended the childrens’ audio player “Yoto,” to the fervent applause of the other guests and their young children. Molly embraced her Patrick Radden Keefe fandom one more time to recommend FX’s forthcoming adaptation of his book, “Say Nothing.” Chris endorsed Jon Batiste’s new album “Beethoven Blues.” And Scott urged listeners to follow his lead and take in an aptonymous double-feature this weekend: the new film “Saturday Night” and the first ever 1975 episode of “Saturday Night Live” that it’s about.

Note: We will be taking the week of Thanksgiving off, but we’ll be back with a new episode of Rational Security on Thursday, December 5. We’re thankful for your continued support of the show!

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Since the assassination of Haitian President Jovenel Moïse in July 2021, the country has been plagued by gang violence, a destabilized government, and an ongoing humanitarian crisis. Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey sat down with Dr. Robert Fatton, emeritus professor of government and foreign affairs at the University of Virginia to discuss the rising gang violence in Haiti, whether the incoming Trump administration will change the United States’s response, and how the international community has responded to the deteriorating situation. 

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Chris Johnson, Director of Legal Affairs and Space Law for Secure World Foundation and an adjunct professor of law at Georgetown University, joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to discuss the laws, policies, and geopolitical trends shaping the governance of space. The two analyze how space policy may change in the Trump Administration and how ongoing international negotiations may alter existing norms and expectations in outer space.

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Donald Trump is going back to the White House and is already busy stocking his future Cabinet. Shane Harris sat down with two of The Washington Post’s best political reporters to talk about Trump’s victory, some of his initial choices for top national security positions--which are drawing extraordinary controversy--and what we might expect in Trump’s second term. 

Ashley Parker and Josh Dawsey covered Trump’s first term in office as White House correspondents. They also covered his latest campaign and are reporting now on what is shaping up to be another chaotic presidential transition. 

Read some of their latest reporting here: 

• https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/how-donald-trump-won-presidential-election/ 
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/09/harris-biden-trump-election-defeat/ 
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/16/trump-transition-cabinet-controversy/