Hell Debate Part 2: Paul Copan on Eternal Conscious Punishment

Is hell a divine torture chamber? Dr. Paul Copan says no, and he's the one defending the traditional view. In Part 2 of our Hell Debate series, the Palm Beach Atlantic University philosopher and co-editor of the forthcoming Concerning Hell makes the biblical case for eternal conscious punishment while giving annihilationism the fairest hearing you'll find anywhere. Fresh off Kirk Cameron's viral Hellgate roundtable, Copan and Joshua work through the texts, the caricatures, and the question underneath it all: who is the God doing the judging?

ABOUT THE EPISODE:
When people think of hell, images of the devil tormenting souls with a pitchfork and eternal fire come to mind. Dr. Paul Copan defends the traditional view of hell, but he wants that picture gone. So if that's not hell, what is? And if the popular image is a caricature, what exactly has the church been arguing about?

Copan isn't watching this debate from the cheap seats. He was at the table for Kirk Cameron's Hellgate roundtable, the conversation that lit up half the Christian internet. He co-edited the forthcoming book Concerning Hell (IVP Academic) with Chris Date, the very annihilationist who made the opposing case in Part 1 of this series. Friends on opposite sides, writing the book together. Now he sits down with Joshua for the conversation Hellgate didn't have time for.

And the texts get harder the closer you look. Jesus calls the prodigal son "lost" with the same destruction language annihilationists build their case on, yet the son walks home alive. Smoke rises forever in Revelation 14:10-11 from something that supposedly no longer exists. Matthew 25:46 puts eternal punishment and eternal life in the same breath, and both sides claim that verse as their own. Copan walks through each one, and along the way he admits something scholars rarely admit on camera: a text he used to read wrong, and what changed his mind about 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

Then Joshua asks the question this whole debate keeps circling: at what point does our picture of hell describe a different God altogether? 

Watch Part 1: https://youtu.be/sVOQfKMB6RI

0:00 Introduction
1:09 Dr. Paul Copan Introduction
3:08 Eternal Punishment vs Annihilationism
8:53 Kirk Cameron Hellgate Discussion
13:50 Early Church Fathers
17:55 Matthew 25 Eternal Punishment
29:17 Destruction Language: Matthew 10
38:05 2 Thessalonians: God's Presence
41:04 Revelation 14: Apocalyptic Imagery
52:04 Worshiping a Different God?
1:03:48 Universalism and Orthodoxy
1:11:41 Closing Thoughts

ABOUT THE GUEST: 
- Concerning Hell: The Doctrine in Theological, Philosophical, Historical, and Biblical Dialogue (ed. Paul Copan & Christopher M. Date, IVP Academic, available for pre-order): https://www.ivpress.com/concerning-hell
- Dr. Paul Copan's website: https://www.paulcopan.com

RESOURCES MENTIONED:
- The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Divorce-C-S-Lewis/dp/0061774197
- Erasing Hell by Francis Chan & Preston Sprinkle: https://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Hell-About-Eternity-Things/dp/0781407257

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