Kastrup vs. Vervaeke: Mind Upload and the Shadow (Round 2 Debate)
4 tim 10 min•22 maj 2021
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Bernardo Kastrup and John Vervaeke on mind uploading, shadow integration, and consciousness.
0:00 Introduction
2:32 Summary of Round 1
10:29 Best counter to John's and Bernardo's position
28:42 Vedanta, Brahma, and Lucid Dreaming
40:45 Local vs global consciousness, and meta-consciousness
43:40 Psychedelics and experiencing "mind at large"
46:10 Whitehead and prehension
51:40 John and Bernardo have moved closer (philosophically) to one another
55:39 On Karl Friston's "inference"
52:30 How to improve as an interviewer
57:46 Transjectivity, and rejecting both the blank slate and romanticism
1:02:42 Bernardo started out as an "objectivist"
1:08:15 Mind Uploading is nonsense
1:12:58 Joscha Bach knows nothing about consciousness
1:24:12 There's no "simulation" of consciousness. Who's the illusion occurring to?
1:29:56 Growth doesn't stop when you're 20. We need more than the propositional.
1:36:03 "Idolatry of the nerds" and how "thinking" is just one function of the psyche.
1:39:25 Respecting the elderly
1:41:52 Having mode vs. the Being mode
1:48:05 Love is a kind of knowing. On "agape"
1:58:30 Love is a part of nature, but not the only part.
2:05:54 How to integrate the Shadow
2:10:57 The processes that make us adaptive, make us self deceptive.
2:13:18 Internal family systems therapy
2:21:08 Curt's personal confession
2:28:12 We think we must "win" but we must surrender. Surrender to what you are.
2:34:40 Trying not to try
2:40:05 Personal stories of darkness, from John and Bernardo
2:50:50 Self knowledge, self acceptance, and "participating" in this world
2:54:34 Bernardo and John are the opposite of how they seem. John is more "woo" and Bernardo is anti-"woo"
2:58:37 Bernardo's shadow
3:01:35 We need to reintegrate humor in spirituality
3:05:28 How to build the modern religion?
3:33:44 Where you can find more about John and Bernardo
3:39:36 BONUS [MrChocolateCookie] The paradox of trying not to try
3:44:07 BONUS [Queerdo] Veganism and spiritual bypassing
3:57:03 BONUS [David] What did you enjoy most about this conversation?
3:59:33 BONUS John takes Curt through a breathing exercise
4:01:28 BONUS The theolocution process is vehement but filled with love
SPONSORS:
- Patreon: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal
- Crypto: https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE
- PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt
- Discord: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs
- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802
- Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e
- Reddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything
RESOURCES:
- John Vervaeke: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
- Bernardo Kastrup: https://www.youtube.com/user/bernardokastrup
- Better Left Unsaid: http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com
0:00 Introduction
2:32 Summary of Round 1
10:29 Best counter to John's and Bernardo's position
28:42 Vedanta, Brahma, and Lucid Dreaming
40:45 Local vs global consciousness, and meta-consciousness
43:40 Psychedelics and experiencing "mind at large"
46:10 Whitehead and prehension
51:40 John and Bernardo have moved closer (philosophically) to one another
55:39 On Karl Friston's "inference"
52:30 How to improve as an interviewer
57:46 Transjectivity, and rejecting both the blank slate and romanticism
1:02:42 Bernardo started out as an "objectivist"
1:08:15 Mind Uploading is nonsense
1:12:58 Joscha Bach knows nothing about consciousness
1:24:12 There's no "simulation" of consciousness. Who's the illusion occurring to?
1:29:56 Growth doesn't stop when you're 20. We need more than the propositional.
1:36:03 "Idolatry of the nerds" and how "thinking" is just one function of the psyche.
1:39:25 Respecting the elderly
1:41:52 Having mode vs. the Being mode
1:48:05 Love is a kind of knowing. On "agape"
1:58:30 Love is a part of nature, but not the only part.
2:05:54 How to integrate the Shadow
2:10:57 The processes that make us adaptive, make us self deceptive.
2:13:18 Internal family systems therapy
2:21:08 Curt's personal confession
2:28:12 We think we must "win" but we must surrender. Surrender to what you are.
2:34:40 Trying not to try
2:40:05 Personal stories of darkness, from John and Bernardo
2:50:50 Self knowledge, self acceptance, and "participating" in this world
2:54:34 Bernardo and John are the opposite of how they seem. John is more "woo" and Bernardo is anti-"woo"
2:58:37 Bernardo's shadow
3:01:35 We need to reintegrate humor in spirituality
3:05:28 How to build the modern religion?
3:33:44 Where you can find more about John and Bernardo
3:39:36 BONUS [MrChocolateCookie] The paradox of trying not to try
3:44:07 BONUS [Queerdo] Veganism and spiritual bypassing
3:57:03 BONUS [David] What did you enjoy most about this conversation?
3:59:33 BONUS John takes Curt through a breathing exercise
4:01:28 BONUS The theolocution process is vehement but filled with love
SPONSORS:
- Patreon: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal
- Crypto: https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE
- PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt
- Discord: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs
- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802
- Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e
- Reddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything
RESOURCES:
- John Vervaeke: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
- Bernardo Kastrup: https://www.youtube.com/user/bernardokastrup
- Better Left Unsaid: http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com
Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science.
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