077: Are forest schools any better for children than regular schools?

If you’ve been following the show for a while now, you’ll know that my daughter and I LOVE to spend time outside.  I looked at the research on the benefits of outdoor play for young children, and in my interview with Dr. Scott Sampson on his book How to Raise a Wild Child, so I am already convinced of its benefits for young children. So doesn’t it go without saying that these benefits will continue for older children, and that if we allowed school-aged children to spend more time outside then all kinds of improved learning outcomes would follow? When I started digging into the research I was shocked by what I found.  Studies employing poor-quality methodology abound.  I’m not sure a control group exists in the whole lot of them.  And “results” are measured in terms of how much students like the program, or how much their self-esteem has improved (as subjectively measured by a teacher’s evaluation). One of the best papers I found on the topic was written by Dr. Mark Leather – it acknowledges the potential benefits of forest schools while removing the rose-tinted glasses to clearly see the limitations of the research base on this topic as well.  So invited Dr. Leather onto the show to explore what are forest schools, what may be their benefits, and whether he would send his child to one…   References Aasen, W., Torunn, L., & Waters, J. (2009). The outdoor environment as a site for children’s participation, meaning-making and democratic learning: Examples from Norwegian kindergartens. Education 71(1), 5-13. Cumming, F., & Nash, M. (2015). An Australian perspective of forest school: Shaping a sense of place to support learning. Journal of Adventure Education and Outdoor Learning 15J(4), 296-309. MacEachren, Z. (2018). First Nation pedagogical emphasis on imitation and making the stuff of life: Canadian lessons for indigenizing Forest Schools. Journal of Outdoor and Environmental Education 21, 89-102. Maciver, T. (2011) Developing practice and delivering a Forest School programme for children identified as gifted and talented. In S. Knight (Ed.)., Forest School for all (pp.41-53). Los Angeles, CA: Sage. Morgan, A. (2018). Culturing the fruits of the forest: Realizing the multifunctional potential of space and place in the context of woodland and/or Forest Schools. Journal of Outdoor and Environmental Education 21, 117-130. Murray, R., & O’Brien, L. (2005, October). ‘Such enthusiasm – A joy to see’: An evaluation of Forest School in England. Forest Research & NEF. Retrieved from: https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/documents/1418/ForestSchoolEnglandReport.pdf Murray, R. (2003, November). A Forest School evaluation project: A study in Wales. NEF. Retrieved from: https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/research/forest-schools-impact-on-young-children-in-england-and-wales/education-and-learning-evaluation-of-forest-schools-phase-1-wales/ O’Brien, L., & Murray, R. (2006). “A marvelous opportunity for children to learn”: A participatory evaluation of Forest School in England and Wales. Forestry Commission England & Forest Research. Retrieved from: http://www.outdoorrecreationni.com/publication/benefits-of-outdoor-recreation/social-development-learning-2/a-marvellous-opportunity-for-children-to-learn-obrien-murray-2006/ Sharmaa-Brymer, V., Brymer, E., Gray, T., & Davids, K. (2018). Affordances guiding Forest School practice: The application of the ecological dynamics approach. Journal of Outdoor and Environmental Education 21, 103-115. Suggate, S.P. (2012). Watering the garden before a rainstorm: The case of early reading instruction.  In S. Suggate and E. Reese (Eds.), Contemporary debates in childhood education and development (pp.181-190). Abingdon, England: Routeledge. Wicks, R. (2011). Forest School and looked after children. In S. Knight (Ed.)., Forest School for all (pp.153-161). Los Angeles, CA: Sage. Williams-Siegfredsen, J. (2012). Understanding the Danish Forest School approach: Early years education in practice. London, U.K.: Routeledge.   Read Full Transcript   Transcript Jen:  [00:34] Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today we’re going to take a look at a topic that is pretty close to my heart and we’re actually going to take a pretty critical look at it while we’re at it. Our topic today is forest schools. We’ve done a couple of episodes in the past on the importance of outdoor play and on Dr Scott Sampson’s book, How to Raise a Wild Child and I think the research on the value of outdoor play two very young children is pretty clear, so I guess we sort of assume, and I’m counting myself here up until this point, that if outdoor play is great for young children, then forest schools must be also great for slightly older children and while I certainly hope that the conclusion of this episode is not that far, schools are the worst thing ever for children. I’m going to be upfront and letting you know that the quality of the scientific research on the benefits of forest schools is really not amazing. Jen: [01:58] So here today to help us dig into the literature is Dr. Mark Leather, who is Senior Lecturer in Adventure Education and Outdoor Learning at Plymouth Marjon University in England. Dr Leather received his bachelor’s degree in science education from the University of Exeter, then a masters in outdoor education from the University of Edinburgh and his doctorate in education from the University of Exeter. I approached him specifically to discuss this topic with us because of a paper he published this year in the Journal of Outdoor and Environmental Education called A Critique of Forest School, or Something Lost in Translation, because I think that when you really want to truly understand an idea, it can be helpful to talk with somebody who has critiqued that idea rather than someone who only sees the good in it. And I need to get to the bottom of this because my husband and I planned to send our daughter to a forest school. So Dr. Leather, welcome and are you up for the task? Dr. Leather:  [02:48] Thank you Jen. And yes, I certainly am up for the task. Jen: [02:52] Awesome. So let’s start at the beginning and talk about where forest schools came from and what impact that has on the way it’s practiced, because I think they’re most commonly associated with Scandinavian countries. Although I was interested find that there was actually a far school in Wisconsin in the nineteen twenties and so I’m curious about how the people in Scandinavia view nature and how often they’re in nature and how that differs from how people in the US and the UK view nature. Dr. Leather: [03:18] Okay. Well that’s a great starting point. I think what we have to understand is that we’re talking about something in terms of 21st century forest school that is a branding and an approach to outdoor education or outdoor learning and that our cultures, whilst they are very similar, are specifically different and by that I do mean American culture is similar yet different to British culture and again British culture is White European – northern Europe – traditionally male dominated as is the Scandinavian cultures. Yet at the same time, in 2018, what we do and how we do it is similar yet different because of those social, historical and cultural pasts that we have and so in terms of how we perceive what a forest school experience is or may be, it’s going to be slightly different, which is why my paper critiqued forest school which did highlight the good aspects as well as the aspects that I think required questioning was titled Lost in Translation. Dr. Leather: [04:35] So I titled it lost in translation because as I see it as I explored in the paper forest school and sometimes known as forest kindergarten came from the Danish [Danish word] and Scandinavian “Friluftsliv,” which is a philosophical and cultural