Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam

In this episode, Dr. Cam is joined by parenting coaches Kyle and Sarah Wester to explore the challenges of co-parenting and the conflicts that arise from differing parenting styles. They dive into the importance of communication, understanding, and personal accountability, offering real-world strategies for resolving conflicts and strengthening family dynamics. The Westers share personal experiences on how external voices can facilitate change and how intentional conversations can lead to a more connected and harmonious parenting approach.

• The hidden reason parenting conflicts escalate—and how to stop it
• Why your past shapes your parenting style (without you realizing it)
• The single most powerful shift that improves co-parenting communication
• How to stop blaming each other and start working as a team
• The surprising way external perspectives can transform your parenting approach

• Parenting conflicts often stem from unconscious beliefs and past experiences
• Open and honest communication is crucial to resolving disagreements
• Setting shared parenting goals creates a more unified approach
• Kids often feel responsible for their parents’ conflicts—without realizing it
• Taking personal accountability leads to positive change in family dynamics

Help other parents find the support they need! 🚀 Share your favorite episode, leave a rating and review, and let me know what topics you’d love to hear next. Your feedback fuels more practical, insightful episodes just for you! 🙌

🔔 Hit Follow so you never miss a solution-packed episode!

• FREE WORKBOOK: Parenting Together: artofraisinghumans.com/together 

• 00:00 Navigating Parenting Conflicts
• 04:37 Understanding Parenting Styles and Backgrounds
• 10:44 The Importance of Openness in Communication
• 16:02 The Role of External Voices in Parenting
• 18:43 Setting Goals for Parenting
• 23:20 Taking Accountability in Parenting
• 24:50 The Role of Encouragement in Parenting
• 27:00 Understanding Parental Roles and Expectations
• 29:40 Modeling Behavior: The Impact on Children
• 31:12 Navigating Conflicts and Differences in Parenting
• 33:41 The Importance of Open Communication
• 35:20 Taking Responsibility for Parenting Styles
• 36:38 Empowering Parents to Change
• 39:20 Overcoming Blame in Parenting
• 41:25 The Power of Personal Accountability
• 43:28 Embracing Change and Growth in Parenting

• Website: Artofraisinghumans.com
• Facebook: @artofraisinghumans
• Instagram: @artofraisinghumans
• YouTube: @artofraisinghumans

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:01)
Hey, welcome back, parents. I'm looking forward to today's conversation because we're tackling a common challenge—getting on the same page as your spouse or co-parent. I talk to so many couples who have completely different approaches to discipline and communication, which, as you can imagine, creates resentment, frustration, and conflict—not just between the parents, but for their kids too.
Today, I'm excited to introduce my guests, Kyle and Sarah Wester. They are licensed professional counselors, parenting coaches, and the founders of Art of Raising Humans, a podcast dedicated to parenting. They also have three preteens and teens, so they don’t just teach it—they live it. Welcome, Kyle and Sarah!
Kyle and Sarah Wester (00:52)
Thank you so much for having us!
Dr. Cam (00:59)
We love your dynamic. Tell us a little about how you got started with your podcast and The Art of Raising Humans.
Kyle and Sarah Wester (01:07)
Well, it really started with Sarah. She has an incredible way of helping kids and parents, and I was the one working with families daily in private practice here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. When I’d hit a wall with a parent, I’d come home, ask Sarah for advice, and she’d offer these brilliant insights. I’d take her suggestions back to my clients, and they’d say, "That was amazing! How did you come up with that?"
Eventually, I started getting invited to speak at churches, schools, and events. I wanted Sarah to be part of it, but every time we tried speaking together, it was tricky—we kept stepping on each other’s words. That’s when I had the idea to start a podcast. We decided to record in our master closet, thinking, "Why not? Let's figure this out."
Sarah Wester (02:03)
It was a challenge at first because Kyle is so much more extroverted than I am, but we both have years of experience working with families in different ways. Our goal was to share our knowledge and support families in building stronger, more connected relationships.
We also noticed that parenting conflicts were damaging relationships between couples. Parents were approaching situations differently, which makes sense because they’re different people. But instead of seeing these differences as opportunities to grow, they became sources of tension. We even struggled with this in our own parenting—questioning each other’s choices and feeling frustrated.
Dr. Cam (03:08)
Wait, you don’t have it all figured out perfectly?
Kyle and Sarah Wester (03:24)
Not at all! And it’s tough for kids too. No child wants their parents fighting over them. But so often, kids in therapy feel like they’re the problem because their parents are constantly arguing about how to handle them.
Dr. Cam (04:13)
I see that all the time—kids feeling responsible for their parents' conflicts. Opposites may attract, but when parents have opposite approaches to parenting, it doesn’t go well for anyone. I often feel like I’m doing marriage counseling rather than parent coaching!
Kyle and Sarah Wester (04:19)
Exactly. Every parent brings their own personality, upbringing, and automatic parenting habits into the mix—many of which are deeply ingrained from childhood. Often, parents don’t even realize how much of their parenting is on autopilot until conflict arises.
This can create confusion for kids. They learn which parent will say yes and which will say no, which can lead to frustration and inconsistency. The household tension builds, and by the time kids are teens, patterns are already set.
Teenagers are smart—they learn the "dance." They know how each parent will react and adjust accordingly. Parents often feel manipulated, but really, their kids are just figuring out the system. If they know Mom is more lenient about certain things, they go to her instead of Dad. It’s not manipulation—it’s intelligence.
The challenge is that parents don’t always recognize these patterns until they’re deeply ingrained. The key is learning how to work together as a team, rather than feeling like you’re on opposing sides.
Dr. Cam (05:45)
Absolutely. So what are the most common parenting conflicts you see when it comes to raising teens together?
Kyle And Sara Wester (05:59)
Man, I wish I could have addressed this 10 years ago, but now we're dealing with it. The dance steps are so established among the couple and the family that it's hard to learn new ones. I don't think it's impossible, but one of the biggest challenges is that their brains have literally been wired to perceive the other person in the marriage or the child in a certain way.
It's like those dance steps are just on autopilot. As soon as the conflict starts, it's like the music happens, and we immediately fall into those steps.
Dr. Cam (06:30)
Yeah, and then complain about it. "They always do this!"
What I find is that each parent is determined to convince the other that they're right, rather than figuring out: What do I do that works well? What do you do that works well? And—most importantly—what works best with our teenager? Because that matters more than our parenting styles.
We're coming in with different backgrounds and beliefs, fighting over this, fighting with our teens. We assume they're manipulating us because they're smart. But they can't manipulate us if we don't let them, FYI.
So what's the first step? What do we do? Like, I'm right. How do I convince him that he needs to change?
Kyle And Sara Wester (07:16)
The first step is openness. If one of you is completely unbending, you've already hit a wall.
Kyle uses this analogy a lot: open hand vs. closed hand. If I come in with a closed fist—believing there's no chance the other person is bringing value, that they're completely wrong, that my teenager is the one who needs to change—that's only going to lead to conflict.
You have to come in with an open hand. What are they bringing to the table? What do I need to hear? What do I need to understand?
I love this example because Sarah is not a yeller. But I definitely can be.
In my home, yelling was completely normal. It was how we communicated. To me, not yelling felt like weakness. If you really care about something, you raise your voice.
At first, Sarah was caught off guard by this. She didn’t expect it in our home. But what really helped shift me—this may not happen with everyone, so it’s not a magic wand—was that Sarah approached me with an open hand.
She tried to understand that for me, raising my voice wasn’t about being aggressive or mean—it was a sign that I cared. Just like yelling for a sports team, right? Me yelling at the ref means I care about my team. It sounds silly, but that’s how I saw it.
Dr. Cam (08:28)
Weird.
Kyle And Sara Wester (08:51)
Yeah! But Sarah was able to say, "Okay, I can see that. I understand that’s how you think. But is there another way you could express that passion without yelling?"
That opened my mind. I went from a closed fist to an open hand. I started to realize that my words had power—even when I didn’t raise my voice. In fact, my kids often listened more when I spoke calmly.
Dr. Cam (09:50)
What I’m hearing is that we often assume a negative intention. If your spouse yells, it’s easy to think, They’re trying to be a bad parent. But they’re not. They’re trying to be the best parent they know how to be.
So if we start from the assumption that they’re doing their best, and we seek to understand why they approach parenting the way they do, that shifts things.
Now, what if one parent is open, but the other is completely closed off? How do you help the one who wants to change if their partner refuses?
Kyle And Sara Wester (10:29)
Yeah, that’s a real challenge.
There was a time in our marriage when it felt like that. You’d think that having a counseling degree and working with families would make me more open, but it actually made me more closed. I thought, Hey, Sarah, you think you know what you’re doing, but I’m a professional too. I actually don’t think we need to do it that way.
Sarah did her best to love me, be patient with me, and keep coming to me with an open hand. But honestly, what helped me the most was hearing it from someone else.
By chance, I went to a conference where Dr. Becky Bailey, who teaches Conscious Discipline, basically said the same things Sarah had been telling me—but in a different way.
And suddenly, it clicked. I called Sarah from Orlando, Florida, and said, "I need to change what I’m doing. I need to be more open to this."
So sometimes, it takes a different voice saying the same message in a new way.
With dads who are really closed off, I like to show them the brain science. That’s what Dr. Bailey did for me. She explained what happens in a child’s brain when they’re scared—when you’re yelling at them, they literally cannot be open and receptive to learning.
Dr. Cam (12:14)
Really shocking.
Kyle And Sara Wester (12:31)
Yeah! It was shocking to me too.
Dr. Cam (12:31)
Or flight, right? They're shut down. But it is interesting because I think we know that, but it's not something we stop and think about often when we're parenting. We were raised to believe that yelling makes kids listen.
Kyle And Sara Wester

The thing I would say to those couples listening—where one person is really open and doing the work—is that Sarah just kept being patient. She kept throwing more and more resources and opportunities my way to hear different voices. But it was never a demand. It was never, "You need to do this."
It always felt like, "Hey, I know you love our kids." I really felt that from her. She truly believed I loved them.
Even though what I was doing didn't seem loving to her at times, she still believed there was something in me that wanted to shift, that wanted to change. I’m really thankful for her patience and for experts like Dr. Becky Bailey and others who finally broke through to me. They helped open me up to the point where I was all in.
And once that happened—once both people move toward that—
Man, our marriage got so much better.
The conversations at night stopped being, "Why are you doing this?" and became, "How did you stay calm in that moment?" I started really admiring Sarah and the way she handled things differently than I did.
It wasn’t about me becoming her, but I definitely saw things in her that I wanted to learn. And Sarah, in turn, saw things in me that she wanted as well.
Dr. Cam (13:56)
I love that.
Sarah, how in the world did you stay patient with Kyle when he was not listening to you?
Kyle And Sara Wester (14:18)
I know! What was wrong with him?
Dr. Cam (14:25)
Well, I'm serious. That’s a tough position—watching the father of your kids treat them in a way you don’t want them to be treated. Let's be real. How do you adapt to that?
Kyle And Sara Wester (14:32)
So, I will say a few things. He was not harming them. I work with families, and if a parent is harming their kids, that's a different story. I feel like I need to say that because this is not that situation.
But he was doing things that I knew weren’t good for their relationship. I knew they weren’t good for them.
I knew we wanted healthy children. We wanted a close relationship with them. We had similar goals, but his way of getting there just wasn’t going to work.
I had worked with families, and I believed in him. But did I have moments where I thought, "Okay, how long do I wait?" Yeah, I definitely had those thoughts.
I want to throw that out there because sometimes we're in tough spots in relationships. Sometimes, the other person just isn’t going to open up or join forces with you.
I’m not saying he had to become me or that I had it all figured out. We just needed to come together and have conversations. And sometimes, you need an outside voice to help with that.
For me, it was about recognizing that as long as he was willing to sit at the table—as long as we could get some conversation going—that was enough.
He went to this conference. He listened. And that gave me hope.
We need outside voices sometimes. When you're in such a close relationship, fear and vulnerability can get in the way. But when you hear it from someone else, that’s not there. He didn’t feel manipulated by them. He wasn’t wondering if they had an agenda. He could just be open and hear what they had to say.
And we had to have a lot of intentional conversations. It wasn’t just, "I hope we talk about this." We had to intentionally ask: What are our goals? How are we going to get there? Is this actually getting us there?
And you know, Dr. Cam, there was a lot of shame that made it hard to have these conversations with Sarah.
Growing up, I didn’t have a great relationship with my dad. I spent most of my childhood saying, "I’m not going to be like my dad." But then I became a dad, and it felt like I was becoming him.
It was like something about having kids triggered these patterns in me. It makes sense—my brain was wired by what I saw growing up.
I would talk to them in ways that Sarah had never experienced from her dad. So for her, it was completely surprising. And when she didn’t just go along with it, it triggered fear and shame in me. I thought, "Oh no, I am becoming my dad. Oh no, Sarah and I are going to have a marriage like my parents."
And that’s not what I wanted.
So when I heard an outside voice, the shame wasn’t there clouding my ability to listen. I wasn’t getting judged or shamed at that conference. I was able to just hear what they were saying, which helped me open up and actually take in the information.
That’s what helped me change.
Dr. Cam (18:01)
That shame—feeling judged or criticized—is a big reason we don’t want to listen to the other person. Admitting we need to change feels like failure.
But none of us know how to do this. And it’s okay not to know. That’s not something to feel bad about. We’re all doing the best we can, but we can always do better. 
You were talking about your goals. This is something we often don't stop and think about or discuss—what is our goal as a parent? What are we trying to achieve? We tend to react throughout the day instead of considering our direction. Does that help? What type of goals do you set to get on the same page?
Kyle and Sara Wester (18:45)
That was part of the early work we did. You don't just fall into this—you have to say, okay, we need to have this conversation. Where are we trying to go as a family? Where are we trying to go with our children? We started sitting down intentionally and having these conversations, which led to others that were so helpful in our journey. We had to ask, what do we want from our family?
At first, it's messy. But as you keep having the conversation, it becomes clearer. Ultimately, if we boil it all down, we want a great relationship with our children. We want to have fun, enjoy them, and hope they enjoy us. But how do you get there? That led to conversations like, why do you yell? If we have this goal, how do we reach it?
You have to be curious. If I come in saying, "Why are you yelling?" that’s not helpful. Instead, we ask, "How is yelling going to get us to our goal?" We also challenge each other—"Why are you listening when she’s throwing a tantrum? Why are you holding her instead of sending her away?" These questions helped us understand our parenting choices and align them with our goals.
Dr. Cam (20:18)
Or, "You shouldn’t be yelling."
Kyle and Sara Wester (20:34)
Right. We had conversations with curiosity—why are we doing what we’re doing? How will this help us reach our goal? When we started our private practice or podcast, we set goals, a mission statement, a vision. But most parents don’t do that when raising kids. They just have them.
What do we hope they say about us when they leave home at 18? If I don’t have goals in parenting, I’ll always be reactive. I’ll end up resenting the parent I became, feeling like the kids made me that way. When our first two kids were little, and we weren’t sleeping much, I felt like I was becoming my dad. It felt like the kids were making me that way. But then I asked myself, "Who do I want to be as a dad? Do I even know what that looks like?"
Maybe Sarah is in my life to help me become that dad. Maybe the conflicts with the kids are opportunities to practice being that dad.
Dr. Cam (22:03)
That’s beautiful. And you took accountability for your role as a parent. I hear a lot, "If my child behaved, I’d be a great parent." But it doesn’t work that way. You decided it’s up to you to have the relationship you want with your kids. Many parents say, "I want my child to be respectful."
That’s a behavior you’re trying to control—it’s about your personal needs, not the bigger goal of who you want your teen to become as an adult. That’s a reactive approach. We also want our spouse to parent a certain way, trying to control their parenting. How do we take accountability for our role, regardless of what our co-parent does?
Kyle and Sara Wester (23:20)
Here’s an example: My daughter played soccer. My dad coached me in soccer, but most of my memories of that were negative—him being upset, disappointed, yelling. When my daughter started playing, I was excited, but Sarah noticed I was yelling from the sidelines, saying things like, "Focus! What are you doing?" She was five or six.
I had this ridiculous thought—"Why is she making me act like my dad? If she focused more, I wouldn’t be like this." But she wasn’t doing anything to me. She didn’t even know what her grandpa was like. I had to step back and ask, "What kind of dad do I want to be on the sidelines?" Not just in soccer, but in life.
I wrote it down—what does that dad look like? He encourages, he’s excited to see his daughter play, he appreciates that she’s healthy and active. Now, her not performing perfectly became an opportunity for me to practice being that dad. But I needed conversations with Sarah—"How do you not yell? Doesn't it frustrate you?" She said, "Sure, but I’m just happy to see her play." That helped me shift my mindset.
So I had to decide—who am I going to be at that soccer game? Who am I going to be in general? And then intentionally show up as that person.
Dr. Cam (26:38)
I love that. Instead of blaming your child for the parent you are, you asked, "What kind of parent does my child need?" Because every child is different. We also blame our co-parent. One thing I hear often is resentment—
"I’m tired of being the bad guy. I’m tired of being the parent, which feels like the bad guy." When did being a parent become synonymous with being the bad guy?
Kyle and Sara Wester (27:08)
Yeah, we’ve had those conversations. Sometimes you don’t even realize what belief system you’re operating from until a conflict arises. We have these unspoken expectations about roles—what a mom should do, what a dad should do, what a child should do.
I was raised to obey immediately, not ask questions—that was considered disrespectful. So I automatically expect my child to do the same. But we have to pause and ask, "Why do I think that?" Instead of blindly following the box we were given, we need to decide what kind of parent we want to be.
We can’t control who our child is. They’re not a sculpture we’re molding into perfection by 18. Our job is to show up as the parent we want to be. Kids learn more from what we model than what we say.
Dr. Cam (29:15)
Exactly. When parents say, "I want my child to be respectful," I ask, "How do you model respect?" And they just look at each other like, "Crap, we don’t."
Kyle and Sara Wester (29:40)
Right. And I hope your listeners hear this—these conflicts with our kids reveal the hidden stories guiding our decisions. Without them, we might never even realize those stories are there.
Kyle and Sara Wester (30:19)
And it's because that conflict happened—not that we handled it perfectly. We probably handled it in a really negative way. But in the follow-up with each other as a couple or with the kids, I was able to tell them, "In that moment, I blew up at you because in my home, dad had to be the bad guy. You see how mom was handling it that way. In my mind, I was thinking, 'Mom's being the nice person, the good cop, and I have to be the bad cop.'"
Dr. Cam (30:21)
Quit.
Kyle and Sara Wester (30:43)
The kids were like, "That's kind of weird. I didn't think that was happening." And Sarah said, "That didn’t happen in my home, but in that moment, that’s exactly what was happening." Without that conflict, we never would’ve had the opportunity to reveal that and look at it. We had to ask: What part do I want that story to play in my life? Do I still want it to guide me, or do I want to put it away?
That’s key to understanding your story because you try to get your spouse to fit the role you’ve defined for them. I've seen it with parents, where the mom says, "I have to be the bad guy, and dad gets to be the fun one." Then you talk to the dad, and he says, "I don't agree with your parenting style."
Dr. Cam (31:41)
"I don't think you need to be the bad guy." And they're like, "You do have to be." That’s where the complete differences come in. But the focus, and one thing I want to reiterate, is that you have common goals. What are you trying to achieve as parents? Then the conversation shifts from what you did or didn’t do to, "Did what we do get us closer to what we’re trying to achieve with our child?"
Kyle and Sara Wester (31:47)
Every listener wants those kinds of conversations with their teenager. Everyone wants to sit down and talk about what kind of human they want to become and their goals. But if the kids don’t see us doing that with others... Not only do Sarah and I do this with each other, but we’ve done it with our families and friends. Many times, I’ve had conflicts with friends where we didn’t see eye to eye.
I tell the kids, "I'm going to have a conversation with this friend." My goal is always to be open-handed. I want to better understand their perspective so we can come closer together. I really believe my friend cares for me, and I don’t think what they said was meant to hurt me. I don’t think they wanted to hurt me. So, they see us model that. We want them to do the same with us for the rest of their lives. But if they never see us do it, it’s unrealistic to expect them to do it with us.
Dr. Cam (33:09)
If you’re not listening and respecting each other, they won’t learn to listen or respect either of you. I see a lot of kids treating their parents the same way the other parent treats them. Then they say, "My kid is becoming my husband or my wife." They're modeling what they see. What do you want them to learn?
When conversations are about winning and being right instead of understanding, that’s when the teen learns that it’s about who has the better argument, who can intimidate better, or who can get louder. The point of these conversations shouldn’t be to drive us further apart but to understand each other better.
Kyle and Sara Wester (34:07)
One of our core beliefs as a couple is that I believe Sarah cares about the kids, and I believe she’s doing the best she can. I believe the reason Sarah sees things differently than I do is to benefit me, not to make it harder for me. And when we come together, we hold it with open hands and realize it’s actually a strength that we both see things differently. When we come together, we broaden our understanding and perspective of what’s happening with the kids and how we can handle it. Instead of just doing it Sarah’s way or my way, we create a whole new path that’s ours.
Dr. Cam (34:53)
Yeah. And it also takes into account who your kids are. The older they get, the more they need to have input on what type of parent we are based on their needs. We often try to make our kid the kind of kid we need as parents, rather than being the parent they needs. We often try to make our kid the kind of kid we need as parents, rather than being the parent they need.
For the teen we already have. And that’s a hard thing. Both parents need to be on the same page, but I’m talking about mature adults who care about one another and are open to listening. I don’t see a lot of that.
A lot of people are well-intentioned, but due to their childhoods, they’re stunted in their ability to take accountability and listen to others. I know everyone says, "Well, the way I grew up, I turned out fine." But no.
We’re trying to prevent these issues so our kids don’t need therapy for parent issues or struggle with relationships. So, what do we do if we’re in a relationship where we’re not opening up to each other? What if one spouse is too set in their ways?
How do we create the relationship with our kids despite that?
Kyle and Sara Wester (36:43)
Anytime I’m dealing with couples like that, Dr. Cam, I encourage the parent to avoid the mistake of trying to balance the other parent by going to the opposite extreme. I tell them to still create a vision for the home they want to have and the kind of parent they want to be. Then, regardless of what the other person is doing, they need to be confident in that vision. Once you do that, you can set healthy boundaries.
You don’t need to balance the other parent out. You need to create the home you want to have. Be confident in the parent you want to be. Then, you can set healthy boundaries for yourself, the other person, and the kids.
You might need a parent coordinator to help you. You could say, "I need a parent coordinator because I’m not at my best when I’m discussing these things." The point is, don’t try to balance the other person out. Create the parent you want to be, and then whatever they do, they’ll do. Trust that healthy actions will grow healthy results. Even if the other side is unhealthy, your healthy actions will lead to a healthier outcome for your kids.
Dr. Cam (38:44)
I love that.
Kyle and Sara Wester (38:59)
We hear a lot of parents blame the other parent for their poor relationship with their teen, saying, "It’s because of you. You’re turning them against me."
Dr. Cam (39:23)
That I have a poor relationship, you’re turning them against me or making me look bad.
Kyle and Sara Wester (39:29)
Yes, we hear that a lot. But regardless of anyone else’s actions, you have to decide who you’re going to be in your relationship with your child.
Dr. Cam (39:34)
With you.
Kyle and Sara Wester (39:58)
You could have a coworker or anyone. Even if you believe they’re sabotaging you, you can still show up as who you want to be in your relationship with your child. It’s not just about who I want to be—it’s about what my child needs from me.
You can choose the kind of human you want to be, even if your parents are being ridiculous, even if your parents aren't listening to you. I remember a moment as a kid where we came home from church, and my dad wanted me to mow the lawn. Back then, you wore church clothes, so I had my church clothes on. He told me, "You're going to mow this lawn." And I said, "Dad, I'm going to go inside and change."
Dr. Cam (41:31):
Yeah. Now, you go in sweats.
Kyle and Sara Wester (41:55):
Exactly. I told him, "I'm going to change my clothes." And he said, "Stop being a dumb ass." It was the first time he’d ever cursed at me, and I looked at him and said, "Hey, Dad, I’ve never cursed at you. I don’t want you cussing at me." And that moment felt really good. I realized I didn’t have to be the child he thought I was.
Dr. Cam (42:07):
You saw it as disrespect, but also as advocating for yourself.
Kyle and Sara Wester (42:22):
Exactly. When Sarah was talking, I thought about that moment. It's like she said—take your power back. I’ve had parents in my office blaming their 10-year-old or their spouse for their behavior. And I tell them, “Why are we talking? Why don’t you just leave? If you're a victim to everything they’re doing, it’s pointless for us to talk.”
I’m talking to you because I believe you can do something about it. You can change this, regardless of how they’re acting. You always have the power to choose who you are in that moment.
Dr. Cam (42:59):
Yeah, 100%. I think that’s the hardest part for parents. They think it's their teens’ job to change, but it’s really about them. I had a client the other day who kept asking, "How fast can you fix my son? How long will it take to fix him?" I said, "It’s up to you. How long do you think it’ll take for you to make the changes you need?"
It’s not about me fixing your kid. You’re the one who has to change the most here. What are you willing to do?
Kyle and Sara Wester (43:33):
Yes, exactly. Once you own that as a parent, you realize it’s not about blaming someone else. It’s about realizing your own power. You can change a lot of this. I love to point out to parents how they can approach things differently. Like, instead of yelling, what if you just ran around the house and did laps?
Dr. Cam (43:58):
I love that.
Kyle and Sara Wester (44:06):
What would the kid do? They’d be confused! That’s what’s fun—once you realize your power, you see that yelling is actually the weakest thing you can do. It’s what anyone can do in a crisis. Use your creativity and come up with a different response. Shame and guilt get in the way, but if you face it, you’ll realize we all mess up.
Dr. Cam (44:16):
It’s so hard, though.
Kyle and Sara Wester (44:36):
None of us are perfect, and that’s okay. Join the crowd. But then take your power back. It’s so empowering. We often feel helpless when it’s up to our teen, but we’re not. We have so much power to show up and do what we need to do as a parent. And once you own that, it becomes easier to say, “I messed up again, but I can change it.” You’re not just sitting on the sidelines anymore.
Dr. Cam (45:05):
Exactly! It’s frustrating when we try to change our teens and they’re not cooperating. But it has nothing to do with them; it’s about you and your spouse.
Kyle and Sara Wester (45:12):
Yeah, that’s a great point.
Kyle and Sara Wester (45:12):
Once you’re in the blame mode, you start blaming everything—pets, traffic, anything. You can give your power away to anyone and everyone. I like to take my power back. And when I start getting loud or trying to dominate, that’s when I know I’m giving my power away. It’s a sign I feel weak and powerless. I need to prove I’m strong, but really it just shows I think the kid has the power over me.
Kyle and Sara Wester (46:36):
When I was younger, if I wanted to avoid mowing the lawn, all I had to do was mow it badly. My dad would get mad and say, "What are you doing?" I’d just play dumb, and before I knew it, he was mowing the lawn for me! I’d sit down, drink lemonade, and think, "Dad, why do you fall for this every time?"
Dr. Cam (46:17):
Ha! Yeah, I wouldn’t manipulate you if it wasn’t so easy.
Kyle and Sara Wester (46:55):
Exactly! If I got grounded for a week, I’d keep pushing until he grounded me for months. I knew he couldn’t stick to it for that long.
So, yeah, you can find us at our website, artofraisinghumans.com. It has everything—blogs, videos, podcasts. You can also email me at Kyle@artofraisinghumans.com to set up a free 30-minute Zoom call. We’ll talk about your issues and see if we’re a good fit.
Dr. Cam (47:30):
I’ll put all that in the show notes. What’s the big takeaway you want parents to leave with?
Kyle and Sara Wester (47:41):
For me, the biggest takeaway is that if you can be open and receptive, change is possible. Kids want a relationship with you. If you’re open and can open your fist, there’s so much to receive. I’ve seen so many people change—people I never thought would. It’s possible, but it requires vision and a desire to change as a parent.
Dr. Cam (48:27):
Yeah, that’s amazing. It takes humility, accountability, and maturity, which is really hard for a lot of people.
Kyle and Sara Wester (48:32):
Yeah, and I’d add that knowing your personal goals is so empowering. I knew what I wanted for my family, and that became my guiding light. It helped anchor me as we navigated all of this.
Dr. Cam (49:04):
I love that. So empowering. Thank you both so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Kyle and Sara Wester (49:13):
Thanks so much, Dr. Cam! We appreciate it.

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast delivers real-world strategies, expert advice, and actionable tips to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen.

Whether you're struggling with teen behavior, communication, or motivation, each episode is packed with practical solutions to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding.

#parentingteens #drcamcaswell #co-parenting #raisingteens #familydynamics #communication

In this episode, Dr. Cam Caswell and Lindsay Cormack discuss the challenges of engaging teens in political discussions, the decline of civics education, and the importance of fostering critical thinking and open dialogue. Lindsay, author of How to Raise a Citizen, shares her insights on how parents can guide their children through the complexities of political discourse and media literacy. They emphasize the importance of parents modeling engagement, curiosity, and empowering their teens to become informed, responsible citizens in today's fast-paced media environment.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How to effectively engage your teen in political discussions and build open dialogue.
• Why civics education has declined and how parents can fill the gap in teaching their teens about politics and civic responsibility.
• The importance of critical thinking in the digital age and how parents can help their teens navigate information overload.
• How media algorithms impact teens’ political views and how parents can help their teens see beyond echo chambers.
• Practical tips for encouraging curiosity and helping teens develop a deeper understanding of political issues.

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Engage in Political Conversations Early: Starting conversations with your teen about politics is essential for fostering critical thinking and helping them understand complex issues.

2. Civics Education is Crucial: Civics education has been declining in schools, but parents have the power to teach their teens about the importance of voting and civic participation.

3. Help Your Teen Navigate Information: Teens are bombarded with information on social media and news. By encouraging critical thinking, you can help them evaluate sources and form informed opinions.

4. Model Political Engagement: It’s essential for parents to model curiosity and engagement in political issues. Your teen will learn by watching how you approach important topics.

5. Practice Listening in Political Discussions: Active listening is a key component of meaningful political conversations. It’s important to not just talk but also to listen and understand your teen’s perspective

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?
Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family! Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Remember to hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• Lindsay Cormack's book: How to Raise a Citizen
• How to Raise a Citizen: A Parent’s Guide to Teaching Political Engagement

EPISODE CHAPTERS
00:00 Navigating Political Conversations with Teens
02:29 The Decline of Civics Education in Schools
04:32 The Importance of Open Political Discussions
06:31 Building Critical Thinking Skills in Teens
10:08 The Role of Media Algorithms in Political Views
12:49 Encouraging Curiosity and Open Dialogue with Teens
15:54 Essential Knowledge for Young Citizens
18:14 Fostering Critical Thinking and Listening Skills in Teens
21:21 How Parents Can Empower Teens to Engage in Politics

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Lindsay Cormack
Website: www.howtoraiseacitizen.com
Facebook: @lindsey.cormack
Instagram: @howtoraiseacitizen
LinkedIn: Lindsay Cormack
X: @DCInbox

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell
Website: AskDrCam.com
Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
TikTok: @the.teen.translator
YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:01)
Have you ever tried talking politics with your teen only for it to spiral into a heated argument or leave you wondering where in the world are they even getting these ideas? It's frustrating when their opinions feel so different from your own and you may worry that they are heading down the wrong path. But no matter how hard you try to tuck reason into them, nothing seems to get through. This sounds familiar, you're not alone, and we are going to talk about that

I have Lindsay Cormack, an associate professor of political science with me today. And Lindsay specializes in helping teens think critically and engage thoughtfully with the world around them. She's even written the book on it, How to Raise a Citizen. Lindsay is here to share practical strategies to turn those tricky political conversations into meaningful and even peaceful discussions. Welcome, Lindsay.

Lindsey Cormack (00:50)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to talking with you.

Dr. Cam (00:53)
Yeah, I'm happy to have you here. So tell us first of all, I love the backstory. What got you interested in talking politics, particularly with our kids?

Lindsey Cormack (01:02)
Well, I've been a college professor for 10 years and I work at a school that primarily serves engineering students called Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, New Jersey. We do plenty of other things, but that's our general population. And so I have these students who are so bright and they're so good at doing school and they go on to like really great careers. But something that I've found as someone who teaches political science is that they come in really not knowing very much. They don't really understand how the government is set up. They don't know what their own powers are in it.

And this is something where at first I thought like, you maybe that's just particular to engineering students. But, you know, after a decade of looking at that and talking with other people and doing research on, you know, how much our 18 year olds actually know, I've come to realize like it is a nationwide problem. We graduate most of our high school students without a rudimentary understanding of the government system that they're in. And so this became a project for me because I don't want college kids to feel not powerful. I don't want them to feel jaded already. I don't want them to feel turned off by a system because I know that say what you will about US democracy. It's one of the best decision-making frameworks that's ever existed in the history of the world. And our children will do better if they understand that system. So that's what got me inspired and involved to do it. I didn't know when I set out that this was going to be a parenting book. I thought this might be a book that was like, here's how some states do it, here's how other states do it. But in the course of researching it, I realized no state is doing it that well. And if we want to change things, we're really going to have to start in another level, and that's going to be in the home.

Dr. Cam (02:24)
Why do you think that kids aren't as informed now about, or have they ever been informed about how the government works?

Lindsey Cormack (02:39)
So it's a really hard question. It's not like there was this golden era of time where everyone was all conversant on how government ins and out were. That's not real. But it was the case that we did have more civics instruction time in our schools, and that has been decreasing over my lifetime, your lifetime, my mom's lifetime, and so it's been going down from the 1940s onwards. And so we are at this place now where if you look at test scores of eighth graders on their sort of like civic readiness, they are the exact same now as they were in 1998. And so the people who are in charge of parenting today are, you know, no smarter, no better. But I think a lot of us are all really frustrated and it's like, okay, well, if we haven't made any gains in how we're teaching you, we probably need to do something else because we see these same sort of results time after time where the adults in the room now, we can say we're going to prioritize this in a different way. So it is, it is the lowest that of all the classroom things, it is the one that gets the least amount of curricular time. And part of that trade off is STEM. Part of that is sort of this idea that we're going to be pushing other things into a day. And so it's not like there was a golden era, but we know that it's down versus the past and we were seeing the results in our indicators.

Dr. Cam (03:33)
Well, I'm wondering too, because the world obviously is very polarized right now when it comes to politics. And I know my daughter was talking about it she was taking a government class and she was so excited about talking. And my daughter is one of these kids that have been watching the news since she was like little. I don't even watch the news as much as she does, but she loves it. So she was so excited to go in and talk about it. And they would not talk about the current election going on right now because it was too politically divisive. And, you know, I think that right there is a signal of are we focusing on the wrong thing?

Lindsey Cormack (04:32)
Okay, so that is like something I hear all over the country is, and you know, and I kind of have a lot of thoughts on why that is the case, but here's the thing. We only get like four or five elections with our kids until they become voting eligible citizens themselves. And so we really only get like four or five windows of training opportunities. And if we say like, you can't talk about this, we can't learn about this, we can't think about this, then we're really sort of hampering their ability to do this when they're older. And we see this, we see this in sort of the data on like who's registered to vote, who turns out to vote, who sort of knows things.

Everyone's playing catch up from the time they're like 20 to 60, and then they have 20 years where they're like in their like, you know, really powerful political place, and it probably shouldn't be like that. But I understand why schools have been hard sites to do this work in. I mean, part of it is to blame with ourselves. When we were doing the research for this book, we interviewed teachers in nearly every US state. And something that we heard throughout the country is that teachers operate in sort of a constrained environment where they're afraid to say the wrong thing.

because then someone's gonna go home, tell a parent, that parent's gonna get mad, they're gonna email them, or the principal, or they're gonna have, know, the whole PTA gets mad. And so they're in a tricky position. And it's not that I don't think they can do this work. I think there's plenty of really good social studies teachers out here who can do this work. But I understand that their incentives are not always aligned to kind of get into that hard stuff because they don't want it to blow back.

Dr. Cam (05:51)
Yeah, that's really hard. And I think too with, and one of the things that I've heard with a lot of parents actually is that not that their kids don't know about it, but they have very strong opinions about everything that's going on because they're bombarded on social media and everywhere else with news without the critical thinking that goes along with it. And so they form these very strong opinions and then they get into arguments with their parents because the parents are like,

I don't agree with that opinion. So how do we help our kids who are getting tons of information? How do we help them think about it critically?

Lindsey Cormack (06:31)
Yeah, this is a really hard and important question because the sort of media environment that our children and ourselves are in and kind of what it looks like we're going to be in for the foreseeable future is one where information comes at us and its job is sort of to persuade us by looking compelling. It doesn't necessarily have to be credible by like, understand who's writing this. I understand who funded this. It's just like, is it sleek enough to like trigger the parts of my brain to say like, that person knows what's happening or this is the right way to think about that.

And so that's like a really hard environment for children to be raised in because they don't have any other assessment tools at their disposal. They're not having to grapple with like finding a different book or trying to figure out who's funding things. And so I think it's one of the very important things that we do as parents is to make sure that we don't just denigrate the stuff they're seeing because it's not like everything they're seeing is garbage, but it is to engage in it with them. And so something that I ask my daughter, I have a 12 year old who has like limited time to see things that I don't see.

But I do ask her, I'm like, what are you hearing on this? What are you seeing on this? And then if it's something where she'll show me like Pinterest, I guess Pinterest is social media in its own way now. She'll show me like, here's what it is. And I think it's important for us to see it too instead of just missing it out of hand because it's not likely that we're gonna see the same things kind of ever. Our algorithms are just so different. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cam (07:42)
Yeah, we're on different sides of everything on social media, right?

I love this. We see something that our kids are looking at and it is true. Like there's algorithms that'll feed them all kinds of stuff based off of one search. So they can go down rabbit holes that might go down very narrow opinionated places. And when you're on social media and that's all you see, it becomes what you believe everyone believes.

How do we have conversations with them when they are like, this is what I see, this is what everyone is saying, because it's everyone in their feed is saying, how do we start that conversation to help break that down without shutting them down?

Lindsey Cormack (08:27)
Yeah, because we don't want them to feel like defensive. We want to like, you know, legitimate the things that they're coming to us with because we want them to keep coming to us. Something that I think is really important that's kind of tied up in all of this is a basic literacy in sort of like digital media. And I think it's sort of boring to kids, but we have to remind them, we have to let them know that they are seeing things.

that whoever's putting in front of them believes it's gonna keep their attention or it's going to let them disassociate in a way where they can stay there and tell an ad place. And so we have to ask themselves, what are we doing here? What is it that keeps us here and why is it that this tool exists in the first place? We're not paying for this tool, so something else is being traded. it's your attention. it's the insights on what you're watching. So making sure that they understand the ecosystem that they're playing in and what they are, I think that's part one. But part two can be something that's maybe harder to do in a one day setting, but in a longer timeframe, is thinking about what you would see if your algorithm was different. And I'll give you an example that I did in my class. In my classroom this last year, I said to the kids, you know what, let's start two fake Instagrams. We're gonna start one with the seeds of some conservative words, we're gonna start one with the seeds of some liberal words. And I let them pick the list. I said, you guys pick one. And then at the end of class on Thursdays, we would watch about eight minutes of Instagram and see like, okay, what's happening on the liberal Instagram, what's happening on the conservative Instagram.

And never once was there anything that was the exact same. Never once did we see the same content at all. And so I was like, okay, so we understand that we would be operating in different environments if this is what we saw before bed when we were scrolling or this is. It's just a different world. And because there's no crossover, it's just important that they sort of understand that blind spot that everyone has. It's not something that's particular to children. It's kind of particular to our entire media environment. No one's getting the same configuration of things. And so that's like part one is make sure they have to like have a full understanding of that. It's not everyone. It's everyone who's kind of like them. But even then, it's very individualized.

Dr. Cam (10:18)
Well, I think this is true for adults, quite frankly. And I'm not, I'm saying me too. Like we definitely feed in and we've got the confirmation bias where we're looking for things to confirm what we already believe. So it's very difficult for us to hear things that are different coming from our teens because we're very strong and solid in what we believe. And we want our kids to believe what's right, which is what we believe. Right? No?

Lindsey Cormack (10:46)
I mean, that's what we think. I I understand the whole enterprise of having more children or having children at all is like, hooray, I can like make more of me. I can like understand the world. They'll understand it in a similar way. But I actually don't think in political terms, I don't think that that necessarily should be the goal for two big reasons.  

Dr. Cam (10:53)
I agree with you. I'm just saying that's, I think that's a lot of the straight. Yep.

Lindsey Cormack (11:06)
We want them to have the same values as us. Like that's why we decided to like let them live in our house for 18 years. Like hopefully they like take some of the ways that we see the world. But I think politically it's like it's kind of a fool's errand because if you look at the best social science research on this, it's about a coin toss that you can get a kid if you're like, you know, I'm a Democrat and I want to raise a little Democrat or I'm a Republican. I want to raise a little Republican. It's about 50 percent of the time that you'll get that. And if you push too hard, you risk either alienating them from the political process altogether. And they say like, I don't want to do this or.

They say, you know what, I'm gonna rebel and I'm gonna be a Democrat or I'm gonna be Republican, whatever you're not. It also just doesn't really make sense because we know that the parties and the ideologies and the personalities are fluid and changing. And so the party that served you in your time that you were like a teenager or 20 and 30s might not be the one that serves or resonates or speaks to them. That's okay. Like that's okay. Both parties have strengths. Both parties have weaknesses. There's not one that's better than the other. That's why we have like a very persistent two party solution to what we're doing here because they both kind of like work in different ways.

Dr. Cam (12:07)
Yeah, I have found actually because my daughter loved, like she has been waiting to vote. She finally voted this year. She's been waiting to vote for years. I don't know what kids do that, but it's what I love is, is because of her curiosity, it's creating more curiosity in me. And so I'm actually learning more about the different sides because we're talking about them. So it's opening doors for me.

Lindsey Cormack (12:18)
That's great.

Dr. Cam (12:36)
because I'm allowing that curiosity of hers to come in rather than saying this is what it is. I'm like, you know, I've never thought of that. Let's go look at what that is. And it's been really eye opening in a lot of ways.

Lindsey Cormack (12:49)
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense to me. This is something, so the book that I wrote is called How to Raise a Citizen and Why It's Up to You to Do It. And the why it's up to you to do it is like, okay, parents, sorry, you gotta take this on. And when I'm talking with parents who have done this work and they start these conversations with their kids, they're like, I'm learning stuff too. I feel like I'm being raised as a citizen. I'm like, yeah, that's what's gonna happen. That's what discussion does. We give and take and we get different pieces. And I think you must, I mean, you know as a parent, you know as a professional in this space.

Doing stuff with kids teaches us things about ourselves. It reflects things to us, it shows us stuff, and so it's always helpful. And the idea that this is a topic that's off limits or maybe they're not gonna be interested in, that's just not true. We just don't really give them a lot of opportunities to engage on it with us.

Dr. Cam (13:32)
Yeah, I think that's really important. you recommend watching the news with your kids?

Lindsey Cormack (13:38)
You know, everyone has different strategies here. I don't do that. But I don't say it's like a bad thing to do. I think the best thing you can do is make sure that you are dialed in and have an open line of communication so you understand what they are watching or if something's concerning them. It's not a practice in my house to have the news on. It would have been when I was like maybe younger with my dad. But yeah, that's not something I say like, yeah, you need to make sure you're doing that.

Dr. Cam (14:04)
Yeah, okay. I was just wondering if that was a good place to start the conversation. How do you recommend having those conversations with our kids? Because teenagers especially are going to be like, I don't want to talk about that with you.

Lindsey Cormack (14:09)
You gotta go to wherever they are. I think you have to let those entry points happen. And a lot of times, you're right, your teen isn't gonna wanna do that. And so a good time to do it is when you're not facing them head on, but when you're side by side. So that can be on a car commute. So you might have a radio on that says something, or it can be on a walk where you say, hey, have you heard anything about this? And sometimes you'll have stuff that your school's gonna send home. For instance, our school sent home stuff about a school shooting that happened in another state. And I was like, okay.

There's an opportunity, I imagine that they might be talking about it. And so it's just sort of finding those entry points that make sense. Like if you had asked me, you know, like last year, should I talk to my kids about what's happened in Israel? It would be like, well, you know, if that's something that's gonna be in your community, if that's gonna be a conversation that's gonna happen, yeah, you don't wanna be the off limits person. But if you have like a five year old and you're not, know, in a community that's gonna have any sort of relation to this, I'm not sure that it makes sense to say like, hey, just so you know, this horrific, scary thing happened that you have no control of. Like, yeah, so you know your kids best, you gotta go where they're going, you have to understand what they wanna get into and not try to push something into it, because that's not what they wanna do.

Dr. Cam (15:20)
And I think with teenagers, it's interesting, a good place to start is just what have you heard about it? Because chances are really, really, really high. They've heard something. They may not understand it, but they've definitely heard something. And so being able to kind of correct that or not even just correct it, but just start there and go and let's explore that together and figure that out. What do we need to teach kids in order for them to be what do you think is the most important things for kids to understand?

Lindsey Cormack (15:59)
So I have five in the book that I say before your kids can get out and I can do them quickly with you. The first is that your kids need to know how to vote. And you might say like, they're going to learn it in schools. On average, they don't. In 2022, only a quarter of our 18-year-olds are registered to vote. So that is the thing that unlocks every other thing. Second thing is they need to understand the difference between primaries and general elections. And I know this sounds like it's kind of in the weeds, but in most parts of the country, and I mean this in the overwhelming majority of elections, the person who wins that primary is gonna win that election. We have very few competitive elections at the general election, so if you really care about who's gonna have this seat, it's usually gonna be decided in a primary, so they have to know that. I think they all should have read the Constitution at least once before they are 18. I think you might say, schools are doing that. They're not. Most of my college students have never read it. It's, you know, 19 pages long, and it's not something you sit down and say, we're reading this together, but in the course of a lifetime, I think it's good for them to have like a basic understanding of this.

I think they need understand federalism. know, state government does different things than local, does different things than federal. So it's not just like, there's this nefarious people in DC doing all government stuff. It's like, it's your neighbors and your friends who are making zoning decisions and decisions on like, you know, what stoplights going to go up or if this is going to be a Stein, whatever. It's all that sort of quality of life, local area stuff. But I think one of the most important things and one that encompasses all of them. which is this ability to have a hard conversation because that is something that is so missing from the way that we sort of have schooling done. like, they're not really asked to be advocates. They're not really asked to, you know, fight or grapple or dig into some sort of topic that's hard and then come back and be like, OK, and that is what the practice is. So it's developing that muscle memory for hard or uncomfortable conversations of which politics offers a lot of opportunities. There's a lot of chances to do this and they just don't really get that in most of school because we don't focus that much on politics or government to begin with. It's mostly, we know some things, we're gonna teach you some things, please tell us those things back. And a lot of our politics curriculum looks like of like history, where they're like, okay, learn these things that happened 250 years ago, make sure you know them, now you're a citizen. Contemporary politics demands a lot more of us. It demands this like back and forth and flow of ideas, but they can't just learn it on their own. We gotta practice with them. We gotta show them what that is. We can't hide them from that, but we need to do it with them.

Dr. Cam (18:14)
Yeah, get from this a lot of it is general critical thinking. And this is one of those really important areas where critical thinking is important, but also listening. Because I think we do just in general, it seems like we do a lot of talking at and trying to convince is our conversations is convincing and it's not understanding. It's not putting those two pieces together and going, okay, if you strongly believe this and I like you as a person and you believe something very different than me, what are you understanding that I'm not understanding? Because you're not a bad person, so clearly you believe something that I'm not feeling or I don't get. What is that? What am I missing? And I think when we approach it that way, we learn so much more than just, you're wrong.

Lindsey Cormack (19:11)
I think that's absolutely right. And I do not fault any of our kids for being underdeveloped in their capacity to do this because I don't think we do it that much with them. I don't think we show them a lot of healthy examples. I think sort of the online media environment actually kind of incentivizes the opposite. It shows them like, say something crazy, say something mean, make sure it goes viral. When in reality, there is so much more to learn about this world if you approach it like you just said with this like listening and learning, which is, like, what is it? that happened on your journey that got you to this different endpoint. I didn't start that way. I didn't go on that path. And then you learn something about the world. And the marker of, you know, like a successful conversation is not, did I convince someone or was I convinced of their viewpoint? It's, I understand them a little bit better? Is our relationship deeper? Are our bonds more resilient because we know these pieces? And I think that's something that gets hard in politics because we just don't see that as the modal conversation style in any space really.

Dr. Cam (20:08)
Yeah. And I think what's really important and what I want to put out there is this isn't getting your kid to listen to you and saying, well, they need, you're right. They need to listen to me. This is about you listening to them. I think a lot of times we hear it and go, you're right. They need to do that for me. And it's the way they learn is when you listen to them and you question and you try to figure out what is it that you're, what am I missing? What is it that you are believing? What is your perception of this that I'm not getting? And so that's how they learn how to do it because they're watching us do it.

Lindsey Cormack (20:49)
Yeah, and then they get to go ahead and do that when they have their children in a better, more robust way. And this is what it is to have an idea about progress in parenting, an idea about changing, like I say it's this way so it's that way. Well, that's actually not how the world works ever. We get to create sort of the realities that we're gonna live in, and so wouldn't it be better to have a practice that teaches you how to do that?

Dr. Cam (21:11)
Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. So what is something you want to make sure parents step away with from this session, from this interview?

Lindsey Cormack (21:21)
think the biggest thing that I hope parents can take is that this is something that they do need to take on and that they can take on. Because a lot of us think like, know, ew, politics, government, I'm uncomfortable by that subject, or I don't know a lot about that subject, so I shouldn't be the one doing it. But if our kids never see us caring about this, never see us engaging on this, they get the message that they shouldn't either, that it's like for someone else to take care of. And that's not true. We all are sort of athletes in this arena. No one gets to sit by and be a spectator.

And so if you can show them what it is to do that and say, you know what, I can learn a little more. I can have a conversation. I can do that. I think that's the best thing you can do. All the other pieces, know, no one needs to become a government trivia expert. You don't need to know the ins and outs of everything. You need to show and model what it is to care, to learn more, to care, to be involved, to show that this is something that's worth your time. And that's kind of easy. That's like a mindset shift. That's saying like, okay, I can take this on.

Dr. Cam (22:11)
Yeah, I love that. So how do people find your book?

Lindsey Cormack (22:14)
It's everywhere that books are sold online. I think right now it happens to be the cheapest on Amazon. It's also at Barnes and Noble and Bookshop. And then I have a website that's just howtoraesacitizen.com where you can order it directly from me and I'll sign it or send it to someone. You can tell me, know, it's their birthday or they just had a kid or whatever. And I'm like happy to do that and ship it out from my house.

Dr. Cam (22:35)
I love it. Thank you so much for jumping on with us.

Lindsey Cormack (22:38)
Thank you so much for having me and thanks for doing this work. I think it's important that we have more people thinking about these sorts of subjects.

Dr. Cam (22:44)
Ditto for you. Thank you. 

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your ultimate resource for navigating the challenges of raising teens. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, a seasoned adolescent psychologist and parenting coach, this podcast provides practical strategies and expert advice on how to build stronger relationships with your teen while supporting their emotional and intellectual growth. Whether you're dealing with teen behavior struggles or seeking to improve communication, each episode offers actionable tips to help parents confidently face the challenges of raising teens today.

#ParentingTeens #TeenPolitics #CriticalThinking #CivicsEducation #ParentingTips #RaisingInformedCitizens

In this episode of Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam, Dr. Cam Caswell and Dr. Jenny Woo explore the crucial role of emotional intelligence in parenting teens. They discuss how emotional intelligence influences relationships, communication, and teen development, and why it’s more important than ever in today’s world. Dr. Woo sheds light on the "emotional recession" affecting today's youth, and how technology, social media, and societal pressures contribute to emotional challenges. The conversation offers practical advice on how parents can model emotional regulation, resilience, and empathy to help their teens navigate their feelings, cope with emotional discomfort, and build stronger relationships.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• The importance of emotional intelligence in parenting and how it shapes teen development.
• Practical strategies for recognizing, understanding, and validating teen emotions.
• The impact of social media and technology on emotional intelligence in teens.
• How emotional discomfort is necessary for growth and how parents can foster resilience.
• Why modeling emotional regulation is key for building a connection with your teen.

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Emotions Are Data: Understanding your teen’s emotions can give you valuable insights into their needs and how to better support them. Recognize the nuances of emotions to improve communication.

2. Validating Emotions is Key: Dismissing your teen’s feelings can lead to a breakdown in communication. Validation fosters trust and helps teens feel seen and understood, encouraging stronger connections.

3. Resilience Through Discomfort: Letting your teen experience emotional discomfort helps them develop resilience and coping skills, which are essential for long-term emotional growth.

4. Model Emotional Regulation: Parents need to model healthy emotional regulation. Showing your teen how to manage emotions effectively is the first step in teaching them to do the same.

5. Empathy is Built Through Experience: Allow your teen to face challenges and even "micro failures." This builds empathy and teaches them how to navigate their emotions with greater maturity.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to share it with your friends and family! Leave a rating and review to help other parents discover these valuable parenting tips. Your feedback helps us continue providing actionable advice. 🙏💫

EPISODE CHAPTERS
00:00 – Navigating Parenting and Emotional Intelligence
03:07 – Understanding Emotional Intelligence and Its Role in Teen Development
05:53 – The Emotional Recession: Why Teens Are Struggling with Emotions
08:56 – Deficits in Emotional Intelligence Among Today’s Youth
12:10 – The Impact of Technology and Social Media on Teen Emotions
15:00 – Building Resilience: How Parents Can Help Teens Cope with Emotional Discomfort
17:52 – Modeling Emotional Regulation as Parents
21:41 – Walking on Eggshells: Understanding Teen Emotions Without Overprotecting
24:35 – Validating Feelings: The Importance of Emotional Acceptance
29:55 – Empowering Teens: The Necessity of Autonomy in Emotional Growth
31:46 – Building Empathy: How Experience, Not Just Words, Cultivates Empathy
35:42 – The Myth of Coddling: Why Validating Emotions Doesn’t Lead to Weakness
40:20 – Fostering Connection: How Empathy Strengthens the Parent-Teen Relationship

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Dr. Jenny Woo

• Website: Mind Brain Emotion
• Facebook: @mindbrainparenting
• Instagram: @mindbrainparenting
• Twitter: @mindbrainparent
• YouTube: @mindbrainemotion

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:01)
Parenting in today's world is not easy, especially when it comes to helping teens navigate their emotions and relationships. But what if we could equip our teen with a skill set that builds resilience, confidence, and stronger connections? That's where emotional intelligence comes in. In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Jenny Wu, a Harvard-trained educator, EQ researcher, and the brilliant mind behind mind-brain emotion.

Dr. Wu has spent her career bridging the gap between science and practice, creating tools like her award-winning card games, 52 essential conversations, and 52 essential coping skills used by families, schools, and workplaces worldwide. Dr. Wu's expertise has been featured in Forbes, PBS, Parents, and more. And she's here to share practical tips and proven strategies with us to help our teens thrive emotionally and…

Socially welcome. Dr. Wu Jenny. How are you?

Dr. Jenny Woo (01:00)
I'm doing well! Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Kim!

Dr. Cam (01:04)
Absolutely. And I was just telling you, I love emotional intelligence and talking about this. Tell us first, how did you get into this? What inspired you to specialize in emotional intelligence?

Dr. Jenny Woo (01:15)
Sure, you know, I've always been passionate in human development and very much worked through that from what I call the toddler years to the twilight years, really started in adult development, training, recruiting, you know, out of school, college graduates, grad students, and even senior leaders in the workplace to really understand, you know, how can you get that promotion? How can you be a good leader?

How can you get that on that career trajectory that you're passionate about? And from there, taught MBA students as well as undergrads. And then after having kids of my own, and that's also part of the reason why we're talking, right? Why I got into mind, brain, emotion, and emotional intelligence is really, realized, well, here I am teaching adults in the workplace, but realizing that myself, as a mom and at the time it was mom for three kids under three all in diapers, two are twins preemies. I realized, right? So Dr. Kam, when you mentioned, you know, we want to equip our teens with the skills, but we also want to equip ourselves in the context of parenting with these emotional fluency, awareness, intelligence, regulation skills ourselves.

So then that really just educated myself at home and so I wanted to learn more, then really pivoted my career into education, was a Montessori school director for little toddlers, to working in K-12, to then teaching at University of California Irvine with undergrads and graduate students. So long story short, I think emotional intelligence is so important yet so tricky because It's different in different situations, but that's the fun part as well, right?

Dr. Cam (03:11)
Yeah. Yeah. And so let's get into, for people that aren't as like geeky about emotional intelligence as we are, how would you define it to people? What exactly is it?

Dr. Jenny Woo (03:24)
Yeah, you know, honestly, it's really about being smart with your emotions. But what does that mean, right? So it starts with being able to recognize our emotions. What are we experiencing? And by emotions, I'm not just talking about mad, sad, you know, but the nuances, the precision of what we're experiencing, because if we're feeling lonely, or neglected versus feeling hurt or inferior. Those are very, very different emotions, even though they all come up to feeling sad. So emotions are data. So understanding what that data is telling us, deciphering it into insights and regulating, taking action and addressing what our emotions are telling us is about being emotionally intelligent. And it's also about agility, right? You know, it's impossible to feel happy at all times. And our goal as parents is not to help our teens to be happy at all times, right?

Dr. Cam (04:31)
Exactly. That is a very unfair expectation.

Dr. Jenny Woo (04:35)
extremely unrealistic and unfair, and rather it's really about honoring these emotions and even the mixtures of conflicting emotions and regulating and, you know, also within ourselves and within others as parents or as teens with their peers and building those healthy relationship skills and boundaries, right?

So that's what it is. It's knowing how to make emotions work for us and not against us.

Dr. Cam (05:11)
I love that because I think there's so much fear of emotions and I see a lot of parents because they create so much discomfort, their goal is always to get rid of the bad emotions and replace them with positive emotions. And I think we have this misunderstanding that emotional intelligence is always being okay. And what I love what you just said is it's information, it's data, it's really, it's understanding. Anger and sadness and embarrassment and all of these emotions that, like you said, there's such a wide range. And I think our emotional vocabulary is so constricted to like now it's just depression and anxious. It's all here. And there's so many more words that we're not utilizing and really defining to give us that insight in how we use it rather than trying to hide it. So tell me a little bit about how do you see right now the level of emotional intelligence in terms of just the new generation coming up.

Dr. Jenny Woo (06:17)
my goodness, I have so much to say. Well, you know, so I think, you know, think some of our listeners definitely have heard that we're in this epidemic of loneliness and isolation, right? But I would say beyond that, even before that, and this was just prior to the pandemic, I was really studying emotional intelligence in the academic world around, you know, the trends and the implications and how you can use it as a buffer for mental health.

Dr. Cam (06:19)
Good. Dang it.

Dr. Jenny Woo (06:47)
you know, problems. And even then there were meta analysis of studies showing that today's Western college students are less emotionally intelligent than they were a decade ago. And so you guys imagine this was pre pandemic. And so during the pandemic, we've done studies even on the little ones feeding up, right? How are they going to look? five, 10 years later, social, emotional, behavioral, right, skill sets. And, you know, right now what we're seeing trends is that, you know, unfortunately we are in an emotional recession. And so there's data, you know, provided by Six Seconds and also Gallup. I do a lot of speaking in the workplace at Google, cetera, and just did it with Kia, Conde, around how our Gen Z specifically. are really experiencing these emotional turmoil and they don't know who to turn to. And so you guys imagine, know, we're talking about teens when they go to college, you know, as a professor, I have college students coming to my office hour, you know, anxious about their life and their next steps and only thinking, you know, I've got to do this so that I can go to grad school, so then I can get that job, so then I can maybe after a few jobs finally do what

I love. And I was like, wow, that is so tiring and draining just hearing you saying that, know, gotta do this, gotta do this, should, could, would, you know. And in the workplace, know, Gen Zs are really experiencing the most burnout, sadness, and stress. That's what we're seeing. And so the question becomes, you know, like, what can we do now, right, to equip our kids? with these emotional intelligence skills, these coping skills, to be able to know what they want, right? Take actions toward it. And also, like you said, stay resilient, understand how to manage adversity in the tough times.

Dr. Cam (08:47)
Jenny, so many questions are coming up for me when you're talking about this and the biggest one is why? Because we, through the decades, we have learned about emotional intelligence. We've learned about how to express our emotions. We've learned about the power of empathy, especially as parents. So I feel like we're more equipped to help our kids develop emotional intelligence than we ever have in the past. So why are we at a deficit?

Dr. Jenny Woo (09:26)
Yeah, and you know, this is really sort of population level trends, right? Not to say that ourselves individually, we are doing well. And to our credit, to the parents' credit, we are more involved moms and dads than, you know, how we were 50 years ago. And to the credits of our teens, they are more aware of their mental health needs, right? And they are incredible advocates. passionate for belonging, others, for all the geopolitical issues and activism that we're experiencing. So I don't want to put this in the lens of a deficit, right? We need to focus on strength-based. I think going back to the foundational why, mean, honestly,

Dr. Cam, times are changing and they are accelerating changes rapidly. We've certainly gone through the pandemic. We have the combination of social media, the goods and bads and uglies, right? And sadly, economically speaking, our teens are less daring in terms of dreaming up.

that they'll move out of the house, they'll have their own house, right? You know, all those things because of the barriers that we are facing today that we're seeing, right? So I think it's more structural, systemic, and know, things that are sort of out of your control in some ways, right? So how do you deal and manage with the uncontrollables? That becomes yet another thing to think about.

But I think as parents, we need to give ourselves a pat on the back. It is extremely hard. But I do also have to call out that it's all about modeling too. And so for example, one of the things I've been talking about lately a lot is when we talk about social media or phone usage, these dopamine hits that we ourselves are very much drawn to.

I think it's important to understand how we behave and use technology, right, before we say anything else about our kids.

Dr. Cam (11:41)
Yeah, I agree with that because, and even when you were saying with all the stress, I keep seeing social media having a negative impact on parents and their expectations on their kids and themselves that they're relaying more so often than I see the negative impact directly to the teenagers. I see it through the parents. And I think we're missing that a lot.

Dr. Jenny Woo (12:10)
Absolutely. I actually just did a television interview around the phenomenon of phobbing. so, phobbing, right? okay. So it's a slang, but now it's in the dictionary about it's phone snubbing. And so when we are so drawn to scrolling our phone, whether it's for recreational or checking our email, that we ignore the person or our team next to us.

Dr. Cam (12:16)
I don't know what this is. How many?

Dr. Jenny Woo (12:37)
who is talking to us or maybe sending those social signals, right? That they need a hug or they're grumpy, maybe they want to unload some things, right? Talk about some things. So this fubbing phenomenon, I think it was just, the stats are crazy and that, you know, most of us have been fubbed and we are the fubber. And in fact, it also cuts into marriage and that I think something about 90 % of married couples are saying that, you know, fubbing is really ruining their relationship. And so Dr. Cam, you're absolutely right in that it is not just impacting our teens. We need to shift the view within ourselves and understand how we're, you know, role modeling or not.

Dr. Cam (13:23)
Yeah, I always mentioned that my daughter's better at managing her tech use than I am with mine. Like it's very, very addictive and you always have the excuse of it's work. You know, it's important. It's like, no, looking at dog TikToks is not work. Like that's just, I can't, right?

Dr. Jenny Woo (13:33)
Exactly. Right. And we're sending this signal that my work or the dog TikTok is more important and interesting than you. mean, that really hurts.

Dr. Cam (13:51)
Yeah, not good. It is. It's not good. So let's talk about because one of the things I hear a lot is, ugh, this generation, ugh, they're so wussy. we've made them so weak and we've made them so like they can't handle anything, which upsets me because I don't feel like they all got together and said, hey, we're going to be wussy. They're growing up as part of the environment that they're in. So it's not any, if they're struggling,

It's not on them, it's on the environment that's been created for them. So how do we help them become more resilient in a world that is far more, there's so much more stress, there's so much more pressure, there's so much more just distractions. How do we help our kids build that resilience and emotional intelligence?

Dr. Jenny Woo (14:43)
Dr. Cam, you know, as you mentioned, it's all about helping them to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, right? That emotional discomfort that experiencing. So as parents, our job is not to sweep all the negative emotions. And honestly, you know, a lot of parents say, how do I get rid of the bad emotions? My kids are experiencing all these bad emotions. And my point is, you need to re shift your mindset and understanding that there is no bad emotions, right? The negative emotions are really telling us what they need in terms of help, support, or maybe a different way of appraising, looking at something. And so taking those as cues for yourself, parents, as well as helping our teens understand what is it trying to say and being comfortable almost, you really accept that, you know, it's normal to feel these discomfort from just oddly weird emotions. Like you love your friend, but you're feeling jealous that they, you know, got that, you know, first place or getting a date or whatnot, you know? It's okay to hold these conflicting emotions at the same time. And you know what? It's okay that your emotional intensity at this time is rather high, whether because you're going through something, you're really stressed in other departments, right? So help them diagnose and understand the why behind it and the how, right? Building up those coping skills, right? Understanding what can you control in this situation? What can you not? And can you remove yourself from certain parts of the situation, right? To feel better. So those problem solving skills are also really important at this stage.

Dr. Cam (18:25)
It is, and it's I think for us, when we get caught up and we're all tired and overwhelmed and stressed, and I think we end up not being able to regulate our emotions very well sometimes. And this is one thing I'm always telling parents. I'm like, until you can regulate your own emotions, we can't really teach our kids how to regulate theirs very effectively. Because if they're seeing us lose it when we're upset, and then we get upset with them for losing it, it makes no sense.

Right? So modeling that. So how do we as parents, when we're stressed and we're overwhelmed and we're exhausted, how do we model emotional intelligence and regulation in front of our teens when we just, we're having trouble finding it?

Dr. Jenny Woo (19:13)
Yeah, you know, we're not perfect. And again, we're not modeling perfection. I think there's some beauty to it and the messiness of being a human to simply call it out. Say, I am not on my best self. you know, say and express it, the why in age appropriate manners because teens, they love to help you problem solve. They love to feel the sense of power. and ability to help out. And that is also an opportunity to help them express their empathy skills without pushing them, nudging them too much, And so just say, I had a bad day at work, I'm not feeling my best. And you can even say, in case something comes out of my mouth, I apologize for that. Or I am not at my best because something had happened.

We love your thoughts if you have time, interested, that kind of thing. Make it a conversation because so many times we feel like we're running into a wall when we're trying to pry these information out of them and you get the one word response. You're like, where do I go from there? And so start the conversation yourself. And this is also where we use our emotional intelligence skills to recognize their social cues. Are they latching on to certain things you said? Or do they seem really bored? Or they need to do something else, right? So then you can adapt what you say, what you share accordingly. But really, when we're having a bad day, don't force it, you know? Sometimes it's it's cloudy, know, almost time to rain and that's, the rain's not turning back, right? So you can remove yourself.

Right? Just in the intense moments, remove yourself, take a pause and regroup before you go back to, you know, whatever's needed.

Dr. Cam (21:15)
I always, I tell my daughter too, I always told her that I gave myself more timeouts than her ever, because timeouts were about calming down. They weren't a punishment ever, but they were about like a space to just calm down. And I'm like, I need a timeout. I needed to give them to myself a lot because I wanted to approach it with an even mind and it's very hard to do. So here's one of the things I hear from parents a lot that I want you to address.

I have to walk on eggshells because I'm worried that whatever I do is going to set my teen off. Please address that because that is completely emotional intelligence right there. What do we tell parents who are walking on eggshells?

Dr. Jenny Woo (21:56)
Yeah, and you know, I would say that feeling is absolutely real. In fact, a couple of years ago, the study came out of Stanford that really found that around the age of 13, our kids are almost like less drawn to their mother's voices in a way that's like repelling instead of attracting, right? because of this natural progression toward independence, individualization. So what that means is that they are anointed by you, you specifically, the mothers or really the parents, know, the people who have really been there for them this whole time, right?

Dr. Cam (22:34)
They are now annoying. Yes.

Dr. Jenny Woo (22:46)
Yeah, the way you chew, the way you look at them, right? And so you are very much feeling like you are walking on eggshells because anything could trigger annoyance, irritation, or just like one of those like remarks. You're like, where did that come from? Right? So first of all, don't take it personally. It's a developmental period. It's very tough for all of us, right? What you're feeling is real. And so I would lower your expectations of your ability to connect at some times, right? This is really sad to say for the person who came up with conversation skills, right? But we have to shift our expectations and our approach. And instead of, I think at this time, a lot of us are still sort of functioning in that realm where, you know, what's my agenda?

What do I want to do? You know, I need to make sure my kid's doing the right thing right now. Yeah, that's not going to work. That's not going to work. You're going to have to change your rhythm to your team's rhythm. And, you know, a lot of the times when they are ready to open up, it's usually the time, say, I find that at like right before bedtime when you are so tired yourself, right?  .

And they are sleeping later, but you want to go to bed, right? So it's the most inconvenient times. But knowing that, I would really sort of pace yourself and allocate other times that are more, you know, when they're more open to be able to where, you know, it's less about walking on eggshells. They're more open to you.

Dr. Cam (24:17)
I think too when we were talking about the discomfort of difficult emotions and one of the things, and I'm curious to get your perspective on this because one of the things that I'll tell parents is they need to get comfortable with their kids not being okay or being upset and we're not about not, when we're tiptoeing around them, it's kind of showing, A, I'm kind of scared of your emotions and B, those emotions aren't okay rather than saying, I'm not going to tiptoe around you, I understand that they might upset you and being upset is okay. I'm just, I'm, that's something that you're going to do. You validate that. You say, yes, you're feeling upset. And it's more about setting the boundary of how they can express that to you of what you're comfortable with rather than trying not to get them to be upset. Is, let me, let me hear your perspective of that. Am I accurate on this?

Dr. Jenny Woo (25:28)
Yeah, yeah, I absolutely, I love that. And thank you so much for calling this out, right? Because, okay, another thing to remember is that emotions are states. They are temporary. They are transient. They're like the weather system. They will go away and it will be sunny again. You know, again, it will become cloudy. So as parents, we need to recognize that, you know, it's not all or nothing or end of the world. If your team is exploding, it will go away. And your goal is to give them that perspective that it will get better with time. It will go away. And honestly, that is how you build wisdom, right? And experience knowing that, you know, maybe an embarrassing thing happened. You, you cringy, you know, like all those things, all those influx of emotions. And they need to be able to express that, irritation, because one of the...

One of the developing the best team coping skills, is, which is really our kryptonite is that our teams are great at dumping their emotions, their distress on their parents. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So parents, you're the emotional dumpster, you know, you, you. Yeah.

Dr. Cam (26:36)
Yeah, safe place. You're welcome. Yeah. It's a compliment.

Dr. Jenny Woo (26:46)
because they will unload everything on you and they actually feel better in the meantime you are distraught anxious and going and worry like my gosh what are they what am i gonna do do i need to do anything they are you know like feeling upset which in the meantime they're less upset as you're thinking this

Dr. Cam (26:49)
Right, they've just done what they needed to do. And Jenny, I want to bring that up because I think that's the other big thing because parents are like, well, I'm walking on eggshells because I don't want them to explode because it's exhausting to me. And I think what I'm seeing is the reason that it's exhausting to us is because we feel like we need to step in and fix it and change it. And that's what's exhausting. If we let go of that need, if we go, that's their emotion, they need to work through it and it's okay and I'm here, but I'm letting go of the need to fix it. It's not exhausting.

Dr. Jenny Woo (27:43)
Exactly. Yeah, you know, like one of the biggest myth that I talk about at emotional intelligence is that a lot of parents and just people in general feel like, I'm empathic, empathetic, you know, I can tune into kids emotions, other people's emotions, I'm emotionally intelligent. That's absolutely wrong, because the other part of emotional intelligence is being able to regulate your emotions and those around you. So in this case, when you become that emotional dumpster. You are holding on to so many emotional baggage of yourself, your spouse, your kids. How can you emotionally intelligent, being emotionally intelligent to be able to sort of unload that for yourself or not carry that recognizing like you said Dr. Camp that this is my emotional boundary. I am here as a holding vessel but it's not my responsibility to carry it forever.

So concretely speaking, it is about reminding yourself, these are all my control and these are not my emotions. You know, my goal has been served. I'm here to listen, but that's done. It's their sort of problem to solve, right? Their skills to build situations to understand and, know, building into, ways of unloading your emotion, whether it's taking a walk, doing journaling or treating yourself, right, to a nice massage. Being able to have that menu of syncing up with yourself and regulating your own emotion is about being emotionally intelligent.

Dr. Cam (29:19)
Absolutely. And a lot of parents will say, well, when do I have time to do all this? I'm so busy. And I say, when you stop spending all your time trying to change how your teen is feeling and trying to fix everything for your teen, you have tons of time to take care of yourself. And then it's something great for your teen because now you're giving them autonomy and the chance to learn how to take care of themselves. And it's like the best gift. But it's so hard for parents to embrace doing less is doing more for your teen.

Dr. Jenny Woo (29:56)
I love that. Yes. That's what I say all the time. Doing less is doing more. And this includes holding your tongue sometimes by saying less is saying more. And Dr. Cam, you write as a mom of teens and twins, twins. And, you know, I'm like, where is self-care time? Right. And I tell people, don't just focus on the self-caring part because that is yet another obligation. Think about how to enable others to care for you. And one of the easiest thing is to say, you know what, this is your problem. You got, you know, a C or D or you, you know, something you're going to have to figure out step by step. I'll give you the tools, help you, you know, understand how to smart goals, blah, blah, blah. But you need to take that process and take, take that step to fix it. That is caring for you, right? When they are doing what they need to do instead of you. hovering over them, know, nagging, right? That's saying, saying more, doing less, really. Yeah.

Dr. Cam (30:55)
Yeah, exhausting. Yeah. And I think part of this too is how do we, I think a lot of parents too, they're doing this because they're trying to teach their kids the critical thinking skills and the emotional regulation skills and empathy. But what I see a lot is they're trying to teach them by doing it for them over and over again. So how do we teach? And I think empathy is a big one that parents struggle with because

Adolescence is a very egocentric phase. so empathy does not exude from teenagers and parents feel like, my God, I'm raising this kid that has no empathy whatsoever, especially for me. How do we address that in our kids if we feel like they're not developing empathy right now?

Dr. Jenny Woo (31:46)
Yeah, you know, one of the biggest thing coming out of empathy is really relating to suffering, right? Understanding how it feels like really walking in the shoes and the reality and we, know, Dr. Kim, you also just mentioned that parents doing everything for the kids, right? When you're doing so much for the kids, there is no ways for them to contribute. Contribution builds empathy, but also when you're not enabling them to take these micro failures, I understand as a parent this day and age, right, failure mistakes are high stakes. I understand that, but there are micro failures, okay? Getting a bad grade on a quiz or on a test, it's okay, right? So allowing them to experience these pleasant emotions, having been there themselves experiencing the sufferings and their lens, right, and their world. They're better able to relate to others, to their peers. And this may even go with exclusion, right? You don't know how being excluded feel like until you've kind of felt some of that, right? And the parents, right, even starting young or setting up these play dates, working out the conflicts with other parents of the kids who are, you know, did something, said something wrong, right?

Those are paving the way, but your kids have never experienced what it feels like. How can they even begin to relate to others, you know, and help others in expressing those empathy? So again, it goes back to doing less, right, to have more impact. Yeah.

Dr. Cam (33:28)
I think also being able to empathize with our kids, even if we think it's silly, you know, like if they're coming home with something and they're stressing out, a lot of times we as parents, and I say we because I do this too, we try to be like, it's not so bad or it's not going to, you don't have to worry about it or it's not a big deal. That's not empathizing. That's dismissing. And so they stop, they don't learn how to empathize when they're not being empathized with.

I think too, and I think we have to be really very, very intentional on how are we modeling empathy towards them.

Dr. Jenny Woo (34:09)
Yes, yes, always validate their feelings, right, before problem solving. It might be a small, you know, no deal, like a small thing to you, but it's a big deal in their eyes. And it's important to honor what they're feeling when they feel respected and heard and understood. That's how feeling on the receiving end of empathy feels like. And they love that. They want to help other people to feel that. And also it's not just a dyad type of dynamic where, you know, we're always thinking of either the parent or the teen, but you can also model that, you know, with other people in front of them, whether it's their friends, your significant other, even a character in the movies, you know, even an antagonist in like a story. Right? So being able to really model that in all different contexts will help your team understand how to express it.

Dr. Cam (35:15)
Yeah, I think it's so important and Jenny, I want to ask you too, because I know and of course I'm on social media all the time too, but I think one of the most ridiculed parent tip that a lot of other people will say is this, like, why do we have to validate their emotions? Isn't that what's making them so weak? Isn't that what's coddling them? And I hear this a lot. And I would love your response, because I work with teens, so I know exactly the impact it has. But I'm curious from your perspective, what do you have to say, not that we're going to convince anyone differently, but I just want to hear from you. What do you say to that belief that recognizing and validating emotions is coddling and weakening our kids?

Dr. Jenny Woo (36:03)
Yeah, and you know, there's so much actually gendered nuance to that as well, right? We tend to do more of that to boys, right? Because when we validate, we're acknowledging maybe you're weak, right? You can't handle it. And so there's also a cultural aspect as, you know, Chinese American, right? I find that a lot of people of color, you know, families are, you know, suck it up. I am an immigrant. I had to deal with this and this and this. You, you just have to focus on school, right? So yeah, exactly. So, so those are sort of the dynamics that I see a lot. But you know what? As someone who teaches college students, I can't tell you how many behind the door conversations I have with these amazingly achievement-focused driven college students that go all the way back to, well, my parents said this, I can't be happy. I am not enough. And why am I so weak? I should be able to handle it. And they really just keep going and going, not having that emotional awareness of the fact that they need help. They need support.

And so this help seeking behavior becomes nonexistent and they don't have that barometer of understanding when enough is enough or when they need to slow down and take a break. And I can also tell you, when I mentioned I work with Twilight years as a cognitive neuroscience researcher, I did a lot of interventions with adults 70 plus.

And it was really about their memory intervention, right? How to build strength and working memory, all that good stuff. But what comes up is really this growth mindset of, you know, like, I can't do it because when I was young, you know, I was told and, you know, and dealing with those emotions, again, the mixed emotion of I am getting older, right? But yet I'm getting more mature, you know, sort of just the good and the bad, right?

So I would say, recognize, are you doing this only to your sons or also to your daughters, right? And what are some of the upbringing messages as parents that you have heard that you're carrying on to your kids? Is that appropriate? And what's the worst that could happen by acknowledging your kids' emotions, right? What's the worst that could, only the good, right? And we do this to ourselves. We have less self-compassion because we say this.

like suck it up to ourselves and we are hesitant to give ourselves credit because we feel like that will make us complacent, right? We do the same thing and look at ourselves, all the anxiety and the stress we're experiencing because of this very same act. So, you know, for those who are not brought up this way, I would say experiment, keep an open mind, right? Yeah.

Dr. Cam (38:58)
It is so incredible. And I talk to teenagers every single day. And it's exactly that the messages that they're getting if they're struggling is not, it doesn't make them feel better to say, it up, or you can do this or not validate those emotions. It doesn't make those emotions go away. It makes them feel shame for those emotions and makes them kind of hold them in and make them resent.

their parents and the people that told them that rather than helping them express and deal with them. So there's a lot and like you said, at 70, they're still have that because that happened when those formative years, which is adolescence of how we form our identity and how we recognize our emotions and learn to manage them. So I think it's so important and I love just just try it because it is absolutely amazing when you do validate.

The connection it builds between you and the trust and respect it builds between you and your child too, which is the foundation of everything else you do as a parent.

Dr. Jenny Woo (40:20)
Yeah, and can I call out something Dr. Kim, you just said that really hit home, Resentment. You said that word. And let me put it into the parenting context, right? We experience resentment and bitterness when we are not being acknowledged by others, people in our family, right?

Dr. Cam (40:23)
Of course you can.

Dr. Jenny Woo (40:43)
whether you're a stay at home mom, a working mom, you know, sometimes we go through these motions of doing the parenting role without being acknowledged, recognized and understood like, wow, this is a really hard job. You know, I don't care if you're working, not working. This is really, really hard. When's the last time somebody told us that, right? When's the last time we said that to our partner or being told of that, right? So that fosters a lot of resentment. And this really is the very same effect to our teens. mean, come on homework these days. Like they are crazy. The volume, the sheer volume, the sheer like acceleration of content, right? What's the last time we said to our teens, wow, I cannot do what you do. I, this was not my teenage years, right? So, so being, that is a sign of respect. That is a sign of relating, which is one of the key elements that our teens need right, to feel powerful, to feel understood. And so again, try it, do it, you know, and it's expressing empathy.

Dr. Cam (41:48)
Exactly. That's where they learn to empathize is when they feel that empathy and validation back. So Jenny, we are up on time. We've gone over, because I love this topic, but tell us where people can find you, first of all.

Dr. Jenny Woo (42:03)
Absolutely. You can find me on Instagram or Facebook. It's at MindBring Parenting. My tools, free resources are on my website, which is mindbraingemotion.com. And I have a YouTube channel with lots of free life skills for teens, tweens, and kids. And it's at MindBring Emotion. I'm also on LinkedIn.

Dr. Cam (42:27)
Fantastic. And what is one big takeaway from all of this, because we covered a lot, that you want parents to at least walk away, if they walk away with one thing, what is it going to be? I know.

Dr. Jenny Woo (42:38)
my goodness. We said so many. I would say, you know, I really like this message of doing less and having more impact. So parents smart, everyone. This is the time to allow your teens to experience emotional discomfort, to struggle a bit to really understand but validate their emotions along the way and give support when it's time.

Dr. Cam (42:47)
That is wonderful, wonderful advice. second that completely. Thank you so much, Jenny, for joining us. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Jenny Woo (43:14)
thank you, Dr. Cam. This is so much fun.

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is a valuable resource for parents navigating the challenges of raising teens. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, a clinical psychologist and certified parenting coach, the podcast offers expert advice, practical parenting strategies, and insights to help you connect with your teen, improve communication, and support their emotional development. Whether you’re looking for strategies to address teen behavior or improve your relationship, each episode is packed with actionable tips and real-world advice. #ParentingTeens #EmotionalIntelligence #TeenParenting #TheTeenTranslator

In this episode of Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam, Dr. Cam Caswell sits down with life coach and former teacher Kristi Simons to dive into the secrets of building teen confidence. They discuss why self-awareness is the foundation of confidence, how parents can encourage emotional expression, and why resilience matters more than confidence alone. Kristi shares powerful insights on shifting internal beliefs, fostering self-worth, and creating a supportive environment where teens feel seen, heard, and valued. If you're looking for practical ways to help your teen navigate self-doubt and embrace their full potential, this episode is for you.

• The connection between self-awareness and confidence in teens.
• How to create a safe space for emotional expression.
• Why resilience is the real key to long-term confidence.
• The power of positive reinforcement in shaping self-esteem.
• Actionable strategies to help your teen overcome self-doubt.

1. Self-Awareness Fuels Confidence – Teens who understand their emotions and thought patterns develop a stronger sense of self-worth. Encourage reflection and emotional awareness.

2. Emotional Expression Builds Strength – Suppressing emotions leads to self-doubt. Let your teen know it's okay to express how they feel without fear of judgment.

3. Kindness is a Confidence Booster – The way you talk to your teen (and yourself!) influences their self-perception. Kindness and encouragement go a long way.

4. Resilience Over Perfection – Confidence isn’t about never failing—it’s about bouncing back. Teach your teen that setbacks are learning opportunities, not defeats.

5. Believe in Them First – Your teen mirrors your belief in them. Show them you trust their abilities, and they’ll start believing in themselves too.

Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family! Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Remember to hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

00:00 – Unlocking Teen Confidence: A Journey Begins
05:54 – Understanding Teen Challenges: The Struggle for Self-Awareness
11:54 – Embracing Emotions: The Key to Resilience
17:52 – Reverse Engineering Confidence: Practical Steps for Parents
23:55 – Creating a Safe Space: Encouraging Open Communication
29:48 – Final Thoughts: Empowering Teens Through Kindness

• Website: kristisimonscoaching.com
• Instagram: @confidentteenteacher

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

Dr. Cam

Hey parents, are you ready to unlock the secrets to building your teens confidence? In today's episode, we're diving deep into how to help our teens tackle challenges with a strong sense of self, whether they're facing struggles at home or feeling the pressure at school. And we've got a special guest with us, Christy Simons, a former teacher turned teen life coach, who's on a mission to equip teens with the life skills she was she had growing up.

Me too. Skills that build true confidence and resilience. So if you're looking for ways to help your team not only survive, but thrive, this episode is for you. Welcome, Christy.

Kristi Simons (00:43)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so grateful to be here. These conversations energize me in the best of ways. So I just appreciate your time and the space to have them.

Dr. Cam (00:53)
Well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate that too. And I would love to start just by hearing your story. How did you go from a teacher to a teen life coach?

Kristi Simons (01:02)
Yeah, so I'll try to make this as short as possible. But what happened for me was my teen years is where all of, I would say a lot of my trauma was really rooted. And it wasn't something I realized until I became a mom for the first time. So that's when the shift really happened. I started to lean into things that I desired in different a different way of living, honestly, because I knew that a change needed to happen. And that change had to start with me. And I'm not even really honestly sure how I knew that but

My son really changed everything for me, my daughter as well. After two mental health breakdowns, I finally decided that coaching was the right route for me. So I hired my own coach. I stepped into such an inspiring community with all of these incredible women. And I just looked around and I was like, my gosh, it's like there's a different way. And what started to come to me was that they were speaking like a completely different language. And it was this language of self-love, confidence and empowerment that I feel like I wasn't really surrounded by before. And so things slowly started to piece themselves back together. I mean, I really do feel like motherhood for me just shattered me into pieces. And there were pieces of myself that needed to fall away and others that were meant to stay. It's just, had to figure out how to put them back together. And so that's what coaching and community really did for me. And I found myself a little after four years starting my own podcast. And the reason that it ended up being, you know, teens specifically that I work with. Honestly, truthfully, I sit here today and I'm still like, how did this happen? Like to me, it's just, I look back and I can see all of the breadcrumbs. But honestly, I tell people like it just kind of happened organically. And there's something bigger at play here, I truly believe. But that's a different conversation. And so yeah, I started to initially help teens through the pandemic.

A lot of them were just dropping out of high school for multiple reasons, mainly main one being like their mental health and just the way that they were actually feeling. And so I started helping them in that capacity. And then I realized how much coaching had changed my life and the trajectory of it. I became sober. I still am three years later. Like there's just so many shifts that have happened for me in such a positive way that I knew that I wanted to give back in that way as well. So I started doing like tutoring and life coaching, and now it's just moved into full life coaching. yeah.

Dr. Cam (03:30)
That's fantastic. And so what are some of the common, I guess, common challenges you're seeing that teens have today that is wearing on their confidence?

Kristi Simons (03:43)
You know what it is that I can see so clearly? Well, one, the first thing that's coming to me is just helping them to be more aware of what I am noticing, like helping them to recognize in themselves what's actually going on. But what I really see is they don't know how to reverse engineer how they actually want to feel. And they keep coming up against these blocks and these challenges in their lives that are really keeping them stuck where they are, because I hear that often from them. They do feel stuck.

They feel like they need to constantly be comparing themselves to others. They're worried about others' opinions. So there's evidence just from the clients that I work with that there's people pleasing involved. So it's how do we now start to help them to understand that they are, in fact, their own person and that they can trust themselves. And so I would say a lot of it is that.

It may seem like these external factors to them, but really what's happening is it's like the internal, it's the beliefs that they have about themselves. And so it's trying to get them to shift their perspective to that language of self-love, confidence, and empowerment that I feel like I learned later in life. But now that I know it, I feel like it's like my duty to teach it. So this is why I stepped out of the classroom to do this. And again, it's just to me, I'm still just like, wow, it's kind of like this like holy shit moment where I'm like, can't believe this is actually the work that I'm doing. Because you recognize like those qualities within yourself, like you can't do this work unless you actually have confidence and you feel empowered in your life, or at least you're moving in that direction. I mean, it's a constant evolution. And there's always going to be struggles and challenges. But you come to this place where you really do realize that you are like this machine that is capable of so, so much.

Dr. Cam (05:06)
And teaching teens how to embrace that when they're still in the process of like developing their self-confidence and developing those connections in their brains. Imagine if we can develop at the beginning their self-confidence built into their self-esteem or built into their self-concept because I do know a lot of adults that still mean like still struggle with confidence because our whole And as you said, as teens, we grew up with this belief that we weren't enough, and that was hardwired into who we think we are. And it's very difficult to change that once it's so set. It can be done. It's just a lot of hard work. So how do we as parents start building that foundation of confidence and positive self-esteem in our kids without the over because I know a lot of parents worry, my gosh, I don't want them to become egotistical. I don't want them to become narcissistic. I don't want them to become entitled. And so I think there's this fear of going there and we almost overcompensate for that fear. And I see a lot with parents where they're just putting their kids down a lot, but not because of that fear. Like they don't want their kids to have a false sense of ego. How do we balance that?

Kristi Simons (06:41)
Okay, so what's coming to me right now, and I'm all about simplicity, so I'm going to keep this super simple, but it really comes back to just seeing things through a lens of love. Like if we can just remember that sentence. And again, it's the beliefs that we have within ourselves as well. So we really need to pay attention and be aware of that. But this is going to be a really silly example.

And I know my husband thinks I'm super strange for doing this, but it honestly works. And this is just like to make a point. So he bought me flowers for our anniversary and this was October 30th was our anniversary. And so these flowers are still alive. And I know that they are alive because I continuously every morning I do one thing. It's like one small habit for these flowers so that I can keep them as long as possible.

I will fill them up with new water and I will literally talk to, like I will speak to them and I will speak into the water and I will just give like positive energy to them, like stay alive essentially, but you're beautiful. You're so powerful, like you're so strong. And I swear to you, I will go get them if you want me to prove they are still alive. And when I think about the fact that we as human beings are like, I don't know if it's like 70 % energy or something, don't quote me on that, but it's close.

It's all in the way that we speak. It's all in the way that we show up. It's in the way that we communicate. Like to me, like your words have such power. And so if just by, and this is just me doing an experiment to prove to my husband that these things are going to be alive till freaking Christmas, and then he'll finally believe me. But it's true if we can understand that from that perspective, like 90 % of, 90 % of life I believe is all about energy. The other 10 % is strategy.

Dr. Cam (08:19)
I want to see that. That'd be amazing.

Kristi Simons (08:46)
And once you can, you know, as I said, really see things through a lens of love and just start communicating in small ways to help build the confidence for them. Like for me, I didn't have that belief until my coach started to instill it in me. I had zero belief. All I knew is I wanted to change, but I had no idea how. Like there wasn't any belief. So it took her holding that belief for me and seeing it for me before I could see it and believe it for myself.

I feel like we all need those people in our lives. So it's really about just shifting the conversation and also like giving ourselves a ton of compassion as well, because I know there's conversations that I used to have about other people, about myself, that yeah, I just, don't want to be hard on myself for that anymore. It's just about, okay, today, like what can I do to start making some changes and focusing in a direction that actually benefits everybody.

Dr. Cam (09:34)
Yeah, I love that and setting that expectation of it is it's just changing what you hear because that changes the voice in your head. Like you take the voice that you hear in your head is really the voice you heard often from your parents growing up, right? It becomes your internal. And so a lot of times parents get very focused on fixing and changing and improving their kids for good reason, like I understand why they're doing it, but it comes across as constantly, you know, nagging and berating and changing and criticizing and judging and all of a sudden, and I get all these kids coming into my office that have zero self-esteem and everything is a should for them. Like I should do this, I should be this, I should feel that. And that's because the messages have come to them constantly that what they're doing and who they are is not enough, they should be more. And they're never gonna be that because no matter what they are, there's still more that they should be. And that feels completely defeating. So how do we as parents balance this motivation and teaching with our kids where we wanna give them guidance and we wanna help them grow and develop and learn? How do we balance that with this positive reinforcement in positive words so that we're giving them an internal voice that is compassionate to them.

Kristi Simons (11:12)
Yeah, I love this question. it really to me, it's all about, well, first the belief. So if we're starting to instill some beliefs in them, some new beliefs, that's already going to be a step one, right? And then what comes next, it's really about, okay, if you have those beliefs, like what are the thoughts that you're having? So what I see with my clients is just the importance of having more of a connection with themselves and actually you know, speaking about their feelings, journaling about their feelings. And I know that for a lot of parents, like that's a big like, like, wouldn't it be nice, like something that they put on their wishlist? Like, wouldn't it be nice if my teen like knew how to feel their feelings rather than holding them in because they know what that can do like internally for their system. And so it's just really about helping them to express that. And again, it in the beginning,

It may seem awkward or feel awkward for everybody because if it's not something you're used to doing, of course it's going to be different. When you're creating change, there's going to be that discomfort. And so what I see is just for them, it's really being aware of their thoughts and learning to think about what they actually think about. And then once you're in that space, you can then take action from a different perspective.

Because to me, it all comes down to choice. We all have a choice in that moment, whether we want to lean into all of the limiting beliefs that we have about ourselves or whether we want to lean into the feelings that we're actually desiring to feel. Because again, to me, at the end of the day, all of this, it all comes back to feeling. We want to feel connected to our children. They want to feel confident. They want to feel proud of themselves. These are words that I hear from my clients.

It has more to do with what they're experiencing internally rather than the external. So we really have to come back to a place of how do we encourage them slowly to start either, you know, connecting with a mentor, connecting with a teacher, a best friend, a cousin, like a role model, somebody that really inspires them in their life. Like find them that person. If you still feel that, you know, there's stuff that you want to work on for yourself and just start having those conversations with them, start exposing them to a different language. This is what this is. And I feel like for a lot of people, like even leaning into that feels uncomfortable. And that's where the confidence is created. And I feel like that's the part that we often miss is to be emotionally uncomfortable is where you will start to build the resilience and the knowing and the evidence that you are in fact capable of overcoming anything in your life because what doesn't challenge you won't change you. So that's essentially what we're after.

Dr. Cam (14:02)
Let's dig into the emotion thing because I think this is something that I see a lot of parents struggle with for good reason again. Hard emotions are uncomfortable as you just said and I think being able to be okay in that discomfort is what is so important because as you were saying, a lot of kids learn to push down their emotions or they don't learn to regulate their emotions. And what I commonly see is we're uncomfortable with that emotion, anger, sadness, frustration, mean, jealousy, any of those things. Our knee-jerk reaction is to shut the emotion down, change the emotion, or just completely brush the emotion off and say, it's not that big a deal. When we do that with these big emotions that are just as equally fair and needed as happiness and pride and excitement, right?

We are okay with those being really big. We're not okay with the other emotions. So when those emotions come up, allowing our kids to feel those emotions without trying to change them, without trying to fix them is part of what builds confidence because we are, especially teenagers, they are their emotions. that leads every day, they are living in their emotions. So when we tell them their emotions are wrong,

or we try to push back their emotions, we're telling them they're wrong, that something's wrong with them, that how they're feeling is not okay, which means they're not okay. And I think that's what I'm, then they don't trust themselves. They start going, well, if I'm feeling this way about this and I shouldn't, then I don't trust how I feel. So I don't trust myself. So there goes my confidence in my ability to understand what's going on.

Do you agree with that? .

Kristi Simons (16:01)
yeah, 100%. And I just, you know what I know to be true for me as well is just that my teen self would have understood this if somebody explained it to her, that the E in emotion stands for energy in motion. So when I actually started to understand that I was more of an energetic being, and that these emotions were essentially energy, I’m so visual. So I really started to like connect with that and I could see when my energy would shift. So now I'm actually making like, like I'm not always up in my head. It's like you're actually making like a mind and body connection. And I feel like that's super important because then you're able to actually feel what it feels to be grounded, feel what it feels to be present. And I think that that's super important as well. So for me, that was huge. then again, being able to like some of the biggest aha moments I feel like my clients have is when they realize that rather than as you said, being like, like the victim of the emotion, because all emotions are so important and need to be celebrated, right? It's like you, you learn to become friends with them and actually hear what they are trying to tell you because you have all the answers within. So what I help them to do is rather than be a victim to the emotion, help them to be the coach, once they get to that point in their lives, which is so beautiful to see. And also just like the creator of how they want to feel. So leaning more into that and then actually challenging themselves to reframe. And I feel like those three roles that they can play in their lives, the coach, the challenger and the creator are just, they're so empowering. It's literally called the empowerment dynamic. It is not mine. It is just a tool, another strategy that I teach.

But yeah, so many of these different ways of being that once you're aware of them, you're like, my gosh, why didn't I know this before? it's a muscle though. This is the thing. It's a muscle. Like anything else in life that say we desire, I desire to run a full marathon this year. And I'm not going to lie to you. When I signed up, I was like, yeah, fully confident. Then throughout the year, holy gosh, it was a roller coaster. I was like, I don't think I can do this. Now I'm ready for sure. No, I can't do this. I was all over the map. But it really just came back to the person that I had to become along that journey and the overcoming of each and every emotion and each and every belief that was telling me that I couldn't or I shouldn't or whatever the case may be. Like once it finally came race day, it wasn't even so much crossing the finish line. Like I am looking back now thinking to myself like, yes, I did run and complete a full marathon. And I'm proud of myself for that, but I'm so much more proud of every small step that led me to that finish line along the way, because I was overcoming so much and I was proving to myself that I'm capable.

Dr. Cam (18:43)
You kept doing it. So having those wins and those examples of overcoming difficult things and going, you can overcome difficult things. You have overcome difficult things, I think is so important too because we often focus on what they could do or they can do in the future. And that causes a lot of anxiety and pressure because they question if they can. So now they just feel pressure to do it. But when we focus more on what they already accomplished, they've already done. This then builds that belief in themselves. Yeah, I do do that, which now, since I have all these examples of me succeeding in the past, I can do it in the future. And I think what's really important and what you were saying, like we're going up and down in our belief system. I think for parents, what we need to learn to do is have a belief system in our kids that is on the up all the time. giving them the benefit of the doubt, believing that they are a good person doing the best they can, believing that there is a reason underlying whatever they're doing and it's not just to annoy us and be difficult. And when we change our mindset about our kids, changes our approach to our kids, which changes the words and the tone and the dynamic with our kids, which changes how our kids feel about themselves.

Kristi Simons (20:25)
my gosh, I love this conversation so much. I really love you. You're so fantastic. You just gave me a visual this time. Like now I'm seeing a literal like ladder, like a ladder almost of like believability. Like it's constantly as you were describing this. And this is why I connected with you, especially through your Instagram, because when you were explaining things and using your hands, I just feel like the way you explain things, I like, you have a gift of being able to explain things that I can like visually see, which is so, so cool. But yeah, this time I was literally seeing like this ladder of believability. So every step you take, like you are building that belief and it's just constantly going to grow and get better and better and stronger and stronger. Yeah, you just have to keep taking the actionable steps and moving up. Like there's no way, the only way out is through and it's gonna be up. It's gonna be up.

Dr. Cam (21:11)
It is, and just keep stepping there. And I think I wanna address Christy, I want you to help me address and help kids. And thank you, thank you for that compliment, that made my day. That boosted my confidence. So when we, when we've got a teen right now, let's say, and they're struggling with confidence, right? And we see them and we get this, and this happens a lot when they go into middle school and high school because they start comparing, as you said, comparing themselves.

Kristi Simons (21:24)
You're welcome.

Dr. Cam (21:41)
Our word as parents becomes completely irrelevant, right? Kids no longer believe R, but you're smart, but you're beautiful, but you're, they're like, you have to say that you're my mom. You have to say that you're my dad. So it has zero value to them anymore. So now we're in a place, kids are insecure. We don't have a lot of power in our words so much anymore. How do we help boost their confidence now. How do we start and I loved I want to get to that reverse engineering you said I wrote that down I love that talk to us a little bit about how do we as parents help reverse engineer their belief system now.

Kristi Simons (22:24)
Yeah. So what comes up for me is just be brave, trust yourself, take action. Because this is an affirmation that I have been speaking to myself for, gosh, probably four plus years now. And it just helps me to remember that we need to be brave enough to actually lean into like what's going on, what the root cause is. Because to me, if you're telling your teen something that is making them uncomfortable in that way, like something like, I'm so proud of you or you're so beautiful and they're not receiving that. It's because they don't have that belief, like they don't believe that about themselves. So at some point in the game, like they started to believe that they're not enough and that they're not worthy of a compliment like that. And so this isn't something that can just be changed overnight, but I do believe by leaning into, you know, what is it that hurt you? Like, what is it that is causing that blocks, like just asking them plain and simply like, how come? And if they're not ready to talk about it, they're not ready, but at least they know that with you, they have like a safe place to land if they ever need to. But once you actually do connect with that, and again, sometimes it's just about talking through that with other people, if they're not as open to communicating. Again, I don't have a teenager. So again, it's so interesting that I fell into this work based on what I have needed as a teen. I'm really hoping that this work helps me as I move along as a parent of teens.

Dr. Cam (23:53)
It does because I started this with Mike without a teen and now she's 18. It works people. do everything I teach and it's like what's fun Christy is she is

Kristi Simons (23:59)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I see with my clients, but I don't have like, my own. So I'm like, I can't speak to that yet.

Dr. Cam (24:07)
Yeah. And I have a kid and the whole focus for her, a big piece of how I interacted with her was to ensure as best as I could that she felt confident in herself. And that kid feels confident in herself. She's, it's amazing. Does she have a big ego? No, not even remotely, but she pushes herself and tries and it's okay failing. And she steps up and does it again and again. And like, she's so incredibly resilient. So I think, and that's, I think that's bigger than the confidence. She's resilient. She goes up and down in confidence as we all do, but she keeps getting up and keeps getting up and she's able to do it and not giving up. And I am proud of myself as a parent for being able to help her instill that because I did it without necessarily feeling it myself.

Kristi Simons (25:06)
So I think exactly what you just said, I'm gonna veer off what I was saying because it just came to me so clearly. That's exactly what we need to be doing as parents as well. Like that is my reminder. I'm gonna hope that that stays and it sticks, but they keep getting up and trying again and again. I feel like that's the same way that we should be showing up for them if we wanna see like lasting sustainable change. You need to say it over and over again. And yeah, it's going to probably drive you a little crazy, you're probably gonna feel frustrated. You might hit your red zone in some ways because yeah, it's gonna be emotionally uncomfortable. know again, as I said, like even just as a parent, like seeing my toddlers in discomfort, it already, it just, pulls at your heartstrings. It's not fun. But at the same time, I feel like, yeah, we're doing them such a disservice by not showing up for them in this way. Like it is just so important to continuously speak to them in that way because when I truly think on a daily basis, even with the awareness that I have, I still have thoughts that loop in my mind and I will catch myself. I'm like, my gosh, that is terrible. I can't believe you just thought that about yourself. And then it just makes you wonder, you know, that's what the upbringing and the expectations, you know, that I had in my family, like things are totally different now.

And it's just, makes you wonder like, you know, what thoughts they're thinking in their minds on a day to day basis. And so it's just, I feel like it's so important to be just kind with people because you don't know the battles that they are facing. And so, yeah, you just gotta keep, as much as it feels annoying, I promise you it's not, it'll be worth it. Just keep reinforcing the positive belief because it's like, it's there, it exists. You just have to make the choice to choose it.

Dr. Cam (26:51)
Christy, I think when you just said kind, that to me is bottom line. as parents, and this has been my approach as parenting the whole time, whenever I approach something, and there's times that I'm not in a great mood, but in general, overall, my approach is kind. It's all about kindness. And it's no matter what is going on, no matter what the situation is, you have a choice to respond in either being harsh and unkind or being kind. No matter what the situation is, you always, always, always have that choice. And as a parent, we should always, always, always be choosing kindness with our kids. There's no reason not to. And when we approach them with kindness, that gives them that belief in themselves that they are worthy of being treated kindly. And when they're feeling worthy of being treated kindly, that gives them that sense of like, I'm not okay when somebody treats me unkindly. I can recognize that and I'm not okay with that. When we treat them unkindly, they believe that that's how they should be treated. And they keep finding those situations in their life and saying, I deserve being treated that way because I've always been treated that way. So I think it's really important that how we treat our kids is teaching them how to treat others, but how others should treat them. And that to me is bottom line essential as a parent.

Kristi Simons (28:23)
Yeah. And so important also to your point that, you know, just in teaching and being kind to them, I feel like it's just so it's equally as important for them to be kind to themselves for us to be kind to ourselves. Like I know even like with my toddlers, for example, like there are times where again, yes, still human. So I will react. And then I have in that moment, the choice to, you know, continue reacting or to become aware of it and then just repair it.

But I feel like the in-between, like what we sometimes miss, which is why it makes it so hard to repair, is because we lack kindness for ourselves. We lack empathy for ourselves. So then our hurt just keeps projecting onto them. So it's really about healing ourselves. And I feel like this is one of the biggest things that needs to start happening for our teens. It's again, it's a lot of everybody's discomfort that gets in the way from them actually achieving.

Dr. Cam (28:53)
That is the biggest thing. It is our discomfort. And I think we need to be able to be aware when we're uncomfortable and that is not our teens' to make us feel comfortable. That's not on them. That's us to be able to sit in that discomfort and not have to fix it for them, but just be there for them while they figure it out. And when they're able to figure it out and know it's okay to not be okay, I think that's the biggest thing. A lot of parents say, I just want my teen to be happy. I just want them to be happy. And that is such an unfair expectation to put on our kid. Nobody on the planet is happy all the time. And that, you know, to be able to not be happy is something that I want for my teen too, to be able to be okay when they're not happy, when she's not happy, knowing that she's going to get through it. That's important to me.

Kristi Simons (30:20)
I love that. So beautiful.

Dr. Cam (30:21)
Yeah. So confidence is this internal thing that we want to help build, but what we do as parents is we're reflecting back how they think about themselves.

Anything that you want to make sure parents walk away with from this episode.

Kristi Simons (30:47)
I think the last thing that was coming for me was just that there can be so much information out there. And like, I want parents to have the same confidence that I want their teens to have, right? Like I want them to just believe in trust in themselves and the decisions that they're making and that they're right there for their families. Like I am just somebody who's here. I feel more so like as a vessel just to share with all of you this language because I believe that it is a very positive direction for everybody. So I would just say like to keep it simple. And by simple, mean just literally lean into what feels good for you. Like that's all that you have to do. Just ask yourself in that moment, stop and be aware and just ask yourself like what is going to help like just essentially shine more light rather than, you know, keep them stuck in the dark.

And I feel like if you can just continuously remind yourself of that, you're already on the right track. And over time, once the language shifts, like everything just becomes easier.

Dr. Cam (31:42)
Once it becomes natural. you know, I want to kind of add to that a little bit too, Christy, because I think that is such an essential message. And it's one that I don't feel like I repeat enough. If parents, I hear from parents a lot, I'm failing. I feel like I'm failing. I feel like I've done everything wrong. And when we get stuck in that mindset, we don't end up growing or moving or changing or doing the things that can replicate and repair that. So I think if you're first of all, if you're listening to this, you're a damn good parent because you're taking time out to listen to how to be a better parent. So you're already a good parent. So you can't say you're failing. Sorry. Take that off the table. Not allowed. Even when we have made mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake, we're still not failing as a parent if we keep saying,

What can I learn from each time? What can I do differently today? What can I learn today to be a little bit better than I was yesterday? Then you're not failing. So I think I love that where we were does not define where we are now and where we're going to be able and where we can go.

Kristi Simons (33:11)
Yeah, I honestly would just like to highlight and just encourage you to just look back at your journey with them. Like take time, like if you're ever really feeling frustrated, if you all of a sudden realize that your emotions are shifting and you know, you're angry or you're upset or you feel disrespected, like whatever the case may be.

In that moment, here's a little tool for you, can use just literally start from like when they were like first born and take yourself like through like the years of you know, just their life so far and all of like your happiest memories, I promise you it will shift your energy in that moment and it will help you to make a more conscious and aware decision.

Dr. Cam (33:39)
That is a phenomenal tip. We will leave with that tip. That was really good. Christy, how do people find you?

Kristi Simons (33:52)
So I'm most active on Instagram, I would say. So you can find me at Confident Teen Teacher. Apart from that, I am opening my books right now for teen audits. So that's the first step. If your teen is looking for support, that's the first step they can take on their journey. Just fill out that application and then we do that initial audit and action plan to see if it's a good fit. And then we would move into a coaching container if it is. So you can find all of that at my website. It's just Christy Simons, S-I-M-O-N-S, my goodness, can't even spell my last name, .com forward slash teen audit. And then, the podcast as well. Yeah, if you love listening to podcasts like this one, and you just love listening to inspiring and meaningful conversations, yeah, Confident Teen Podcast, wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Dr. Cam (34:29)
Fantastic, and I will put all the stuff in the notes so people can find it. Christy, thank you so much for joining me today.

Kristi Simons (34:52)
Thank you. It was lovely. I told you, I feel so freaking energized. So energized.

Dr. Cam (34:57)
I know I love talking about this stuff. This is great. I really enjoyed talking to you too. 

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers expert advice, practical parenting strategies, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding.

#ParentingTeens #TeenConfidence #RaisingResilientTeens #TheTeenTranslator

In this episode, Dr. Cam sits down with Elaine Taylor-Klaus to explore the challenges and strategies for raising neurodiverse teens. Elaine shares her personal journey as a mom of neurodiverse kids and how she became a coach to help other parents. They discuss the shifting perceptions of ADHD and autism, the increasing diagnoses, and why neurodiversity should be seen as an evolutionary adaptation rather than a deficit. The conversation focuses on collaborative problem-solving, trust-building, and fostering teen autonomy, as well as the role of medication in supporting neurodiverse youth.

• How to shift your mindset around ADHD and autism
• The benefits of coaching for parents of neurodiverse teens
• Why collaborative problem-solving builds stronger parent-teen relationships
• The role of medication in supporting neurodiverse individuals
• How to empower your teen by meeting them where they are

• Coaching empowers parents and transforms family dynamics.
• ADHD can be an advantage when understood and managed properly.
• Medication is a tool, not a solution—its role varies for each child.
• Building trust leads to better communication and cooperation.
• Understanding neurodiversity benefits all kids, not just those diagnosed.

If this episode was helpful, share it with other parents and leave a rating and review! Your feedback helps us create more valuable content to support you and your teen.

• Remember to hit Follow so you never miss an episode packed with actionable parenting strategies!

• 00:00 Introduction to Neurodiversity and Parenting Challenges
• 10:03 Understanding ADHD in Today's World
• 21:01 Supporting Neurodiverse Teens: A Coaching Approach
• 29:57 Key Takeaways for Parents of Neurodiverse Children

• Website: ImpactParents.com
• Instagram: @ImpactParents
• Facebook: @ImpactParents
• Twitter: @ElaineTKlaus
• LinkedIn: Elaine Taylor-Klaus
• Podcast: Parenting with Impact

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:00)
Welcome back to the show. Today we're diving into a topic that's close to my heart, supporting our neurodiverse teens. If you're parent navigating the unique challenges of raising a neurodiverse child, you don't want to miss this episode. Joining us is the incredible Elaine Taylor-Klaus, a master certified coach and a mom of six in an ADHD plus plus family. We're gonna explain what that is.

Elaine is a true thought leader in the field of neurodiversity, co-founding the first global coaching communities for parents of complex kids through Impact ADHD and ImpactParents.com. She's dedicated her career to educating and empowering parents like us, and her insights are invaluable. Elaine is here to help us understand how to nurture our teens so they can thrive. So if you're ready to transform the way you support your neurodiverse teen, stick around.

This episode is going to be packed with essential advice you don't want to miss. Welcome, Elaine.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (00:58)
Thank you. It is great to be here. I love your energy. I'm excited.

Dr. Cam (01:02)
I'm so glad to talk to you about this and I want to first hear about your story. A mom of six neurodiverse kids. Did I get that right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (01:09)
Not six, actually. I have three neurodiverse kids myself and my business partner Diane has three. And so I think that somehow got lost in the translation. Now that they're young adults and they each have partners, it feels like a mom of six.

Dr. Cam (01:18)
is this what got you into this field or what really inspired you to focus on this?  

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (01:29)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. This is what got me in. I was a mom of three complex kids under the age of 10. I didn't even know what that meant. I just knew that I was struggling. My eldest kid was really not an easy kid to raise, had lots of diagnoses, lots of health issues, medically fragile. It was complicated. And I remember going to my child's therapist, psychologist at about eight years old with this long list of like eight diagnoses and I'm crying. I'm like, what do I do? Where do I start? So she sent me to a nutritionist. said, with all this, you start with the metabolic. And so we were kind of getting a handle on that. went gluten free, had a huge impact. And somebody turned me onto coaching. And I was really struggling. There was a lot of support available for my kids and there was really nothing for me except for, you know, that five minutes with my hand on the doors, I'm walking out of the kids therapist office where I'm like, can I ask you one more thing? I like, it's so not fair. There was so little resource for parents at the time. And, and so the long story short, I was trying to go back to graduate school. took the GREs. I was going to go, you know, get a PhD and I discovered coaching and I fell in love. I I called my husband the first afternoon in tears and like, yeah, there were a lot of tears in those years. I found it. Like this is it. It was an empowering way to be. was, I had like used a midwife. I was all about wellness and health and, and, and I found that coaching gave me a framework for how I really wanted to be as a parent. I wanted to see them as whole and healthy and capable and not broken and needing to be fixed. And coaching was just, it was the answer for me. And so it really transformed me. which really transformed my family. Ultimately, my husband also became a coach. And when I asked him years later, like, what happened? He said, I just couldn't deny anymore that what you were doing was working. So I ended up kind of creating this, this new modality, blending coaching with neurodiversity awareness. And when Diane and I met, we had this similar experience, only I did have ADHD and learning issues that were diagnosed in my forties and she did not. And it worked for both of us. So we kind of knew we were onto something and it wasn't rocket science. We could teach it to other parents. So I started coaching and training parents of complex kids. And, you know, that was, that was a long time ago now.

Dr. Cam (03:54)
The rest is history. Do you see a change in what parents are coming to you about? Or do you feel like it's consistent?  .

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (04:19)
Yes and no. Yes and no. mean, the world's changed a lot, you know, but by the time I started, we were already post 9-11, which is when I, and technology was already starting to become a part of the world. So I think that for me, part of what's changed is our understanding and awareness, the research, the clarity about ADHD, about executive function, about neurodiversity, mental health, that's shifted a lot in the last 20 years. So there is a little less stigma and a lot more awareness to the importance of really addressing these issues. I say a little less stigma, not as much as a little Well, there's less. But part of it is because the autism movement came in and autism kind of came in and said, we're not taking your stigma, forget that. And I really think it shifted people's frame of reference around difference and shifted because the autism movement really did say, I'm not coming to you, you got to come to me. And it changed. I think now that it's so interesting. One of the big things that's changed is in the early days, like when my kids were diagnosed and those days, the providers had to choose between an ADHD diagnosis or an autism diagnosis. You could have one or the other, but not both till about 2013.

And so everybody wanted, you didn't want an autism diagnosis. That was like a death sentence in those days. Now a provider, first of all, a provider doesn't have to make the choice. Both can be diagnosed and are very frequently. The correlation is very high. But now a parent can get better services with an autism diagnosis than an ADHD diagnosis and better support and compassion from their peers and friends and family. So now you've got people seeking a diagnosis that they used that 20 years ago they were avoiding. And I was one of them, right?

Dr. Cam (06:17)
the avoider. What do you think is a stigma with autism? are people kind of feeling opposed to now?.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (06:24)
think there's less stigma with autism than ADHD now. mean, you know, nobody wants a diagnosis, but I think with autism, there's beginning to be an understanding that they can learn skills and tools and approaches and modalities, that they can learn how to adapt and modify and improve their capacity.because it's coming from a different part of the brain and it's a different, it's not as much about, if they don't have the overlapping ADHD, it's not as much about executive function. It's more about sensory and social. And you can actually, I think with people with autism, especially if you catch it early, you can really help them learn how to kind of integrate themselves into the world. With ADHD, there's still a lot, I think there's more stigma than anything in the ADHD space.

Dr. Cam (07:17)
I have some questions about that too, because one thing I've noticed is the diagnosis for ADHD seems to be going up and up and up and up. Why do you think this is? Please, I've got one too and I'm curious to hear what yours is since you're an expert in it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (07:29)
Okay, here's my take on that. Okay, there a reasons. There are few reasons. One is that there is a lot more research. We understand it way better than we did. Like 30 years ago, ADHD only was hyperactivity in little boys. That is so not the case. Now there are all these adults who are not diagnosed and under diagnosed. So we understand what we're looking for better. The second is we are living in an interruption driven world where there's so much more distraction and so much more volume coming at us that ADHD is kind of on a spectrum, your capacity to handle what's coming at you. If there's more coming at you, like my ADHD wasn't diagnosed as a kid, it was diagnosed as an adult when I had three kids and I couldn't handle it anymore. So it only is diagnosed if it impairs with your capacity to fulfill what you're trying to fulfill. All right, so if you've got a world of people that are getting assaulted with information all the time, it's harder to navigate all the expectations. You're gonna see a higher problem with people coping.

Dr. Cam (08:38)
I'm going to, have a question about that because this is where I struggle a little bit to be honest.  

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (08:41)
Okay. Can I pin that and can we pin it? There's one more thing that I think is really important. So you've got a complex condition that's way more complex than we understood. That's a process of elimination diagnosis. So there's no test for it. Although there's now beginning to be like QB Tech and some of these other assessments that can assist the assessment.

And there's some online, I mean, it's way better. It's going to be easier 20 years from now to diagnose it than it is now. But there was a major smear campaign that was launched against ADHD in the late 90s and early 2000s. was multimillion dollars done by the same people who actually took on the tobacco industry. They went after teachers, they went after doctors, they went after school systems they demonized medication. And I'm not gonna go into the all of who was behind it because I don't need that lawsuit neither do you. But there is a podcast episode on my podcast on parenting with impact with Kelly Pickens talking about the smear campaign. So I think part of what we're still dealing with was that in the late 90s and early aughts, a lot of people were avoiding a diagnosis, providers were avoiding the diagnosis, parents didn't wanna get it or didn't want to use medication or try medication. So we all these adults now who were never identified and treated. And so that's kind of coming out of the woodwork. So that's kind of the context for what I think is going on. Now, what's the question?

Dr. Cam (10:10)
Well, and this is coming from a mom with a daughter with ADHD who has been medicated for many, many years. And I think the thing that I've always struggled with is, is there really a deep issue with my daughter or is the world becoming far more distra, there's far more distractions and pace and challenges that the human brain just is not as capable because it does not evolve as fast as technology and the world is evolving that the human brain just isn't doesn't have the capacity to handle it anymore. And so we're medicating them to be able to so this is this is where I go back and forth. clear this up for me.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (11:03)
I you. feel you. Okay. All right. I'm so with you. I totally get it. Here's what I, here's how I see it. Okay. First of all, I do think that ADHD, the ADHD brain is an evolutionary adaptation. So I think we're actually more capable of handling what's going on in this world, not less. I like to call it, nobody can, what do you call it? Double task. multitask, but we can rapid sequential monotask like nobody's business, right? So I think that it's actually an evolutionary adaptation. That's just my, you know, and it's not that we can't cope with the world. It's that we can't always fulfill the expectations of the world. And so we need support to be able to do what the world expects of us to do.

Dr. Cam (11:39)
Right, that does sound evolutionary. Love that approach.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (12:02)
But if you look at the greatest innovators, the greatest Nobel Prize winners, and like the greatest minds throughout history, most of them are probably neurodiverse. And so that capacity to think creatively, think outside the box, see things that other people don't see, make linkages and connections, that's extraordinary, right? And you still like think the absent mind of the professor at some point you still have to do the dishes and do the laundry and that's the stuff that's hard to do when your brain is thinking of quantum physics. So that's why I think it's so hard to adapt and why the more interesting and fascinating the world gets in some ways the harder it is for those of us who are engaged in that to deal with the mundane things of life.

Dr. Cam (12:38)
I wanna go down this path, I'm just excited to ask questions.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (12:57)
I struggle with the term medicated my child and I used to use it too. Because I don't think it's medicating them. I think we are giving them medication that supports their brain to help them achieve what they want to achieve. And that goes back to that smear campaign, right? I had this conversation with one of my coaching groups, parents of group of teens, and we were talking about helping kids become their own medical managers. And we want them to make their choices and to enroll. And I've never met a teenager who doesn't at some point stop taking their meds before they come back to their meds, right? Because they want to be in control. And what I said to this group, and was really quite like I became emotional when I was saying it, I started taking medication almost 15 years ago. I take a very small dose, but it helps reduce my overwhelm. So I know what to focus on. And for about 10 years, every morning I would look at that pill and I go, is this a crutch? Do I really need this? Should I be taking this? And I was shaming myself because the world wants me to feel shame for needing this medication. And what I realized is I don't need it. but my life is so much better when I take it. I can be more of myself. I can be more present in my life. So do I need it? Could I function without it? Yeah. Would I be as effective and compassionate and present? Actually, no. So thank you for letting me. That's kind of my soapbox on it, but I just feel like, yeah. So go ahead.

Dr. Cam (14:35)
It such an important soapbox and I'm glad you got there because I think that is something that we've always talked about too with my daughter. It's like we met it, she uses medication for school because school is not an environment that her brain succeeds at as well without it. However, in other realms of her life,

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (15:05)
It doesn't set her up for success.  .

Dr. Cam (15:10)
She does not use medication because her brain is far more effective the way it is. So here's the path that you were going down that I really want to go down. Is this evolutionary thought of the brain, the neurodiversity that we look at often and society looks at often as a weakness, is actually them more evolved than a lot of us and is the strength but because the world hasn't caught up to them, they need medication to help them adapt and almost like lower down to our level to be able to cope with how the world has not caught up with them. I wanna go that route because that route makes, gives me chills when I think of my daughter. Like, look at her go.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (15:46)
So my theory is that, and I'm talking about all nerd versus kids, because ADHD travels with lots of cousins and it's almost never alone, right? Like the kids with ADHD and dyslexia, they're the brilliant superpowers who can do anything because they understand that structure supports them and they're willing to use structure. They're not going to fight it. And they are amazing, right? What I think is that a lot of us are specialists in a generalist's world. That we have brains, whether it's autism or ADHD or anxiety, there's something about the way that we're wired, that when we find our gift, our specialty, or when we tap into that, I that's what my world has been when I discovered, when I created Impact. Like who I am as a coach and a parent and professional educator, like this is my sweet spot. This is where I'm supposed to be in the

And when I'm here, I'm like bulletproof, I'm awesome. can be present and I can be engaged and I can go all day long. If I have to try to make dinner, I become like this really ridiculously weak, incapable adult. So I'm a specialist in this world. And when I can lean into my specialty, I can soar. But when I'm asked to perform as a generalist, when I'm expected to do well in science when I'm a language arts person. And then you only want me to focus on the science and the math because that's where my weakness is. So I should really work on that. And then you take me out of the art class that I'm really soaring in. Like it's counterintuitive, right? And so I do think, I think what, one of the things I've learned in the last few years, we've done a lot of work around neurodiversity education. I do training for corporate, do training for coaching groups on neurodiversity coaching, neurodiversity inclusion, and all that kind of stuff. And what I'm really clear at is that when you look at the full range of neurodiversity, it is probably about almost half the population. When you look at anxiety, ADHD, autism, depression, trauma, right? Let's just go to trauma for a minute and how many people in PTSD and how many people have had various trauma experiences in their lives. It rewires your brain. It may be circumstantial or situational. It may last, but everyone has some experience of being neurodivergent at some time. That's what neurodiversity is about. It's about all of our brains are wired different and some are not better than others.

Dr. Cam (18:34)
We're all neurodivergent. just on a different, we all are. We are, I like that. We are all neurodiverse. Absolutely. I love NeuroSpicy. That's awesome.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (18:51)
We are all neurodiverse. Okay. You're all neurodiverse. I like to call us neuro spicy. You know, just a little. But we are all, everybody's got, everybody's brain is different. I mean, there are lots of similarities, but everybody's brain is different. And if we can tap into what makes each person's brain tick, there's this concept called universal design.

And it's kind of the all boats will rise philosophy, right? The notion is if you, you, what we do for people with neurodiversity, the education we provide, if we adapt a classroom for kids with neurodiversity or for kids with neurodivergence, it's going to serve all of the kids in the classroom, right? Everybody's going to do better if we create basic accommodations.

that give kids a sense of agency and autonomy and a voice, right? Everybody's gonna do better if we don't give them a ton of busy work and we help them learn what they need to learn without wasting their time. And so if we begin to see that, and this is the same in the workplace, everybody's gonna do better if we're onboarding somebody in a work environment and we find out, would you be better to communicate with this in text or video or like,

If we ask people how they process information and how they motivate themselves, and then we play to that, it's going to benefit everyone. So that's where I think we're going, but I think we've got a few decades before we actually get there. Yeah, well, you know, it takes some time.

Dr. Cam (20:34)
Yeah, it's a slow moving boat, isn't it? It takes some time to tend to things. So in the meantime, we've got a teenager who has been diagnosed with ADHD or autism or one of the many, right? But the expectation is for them to go to school, sit in school and do well in school and their brain does better elsewhere.

And that is not where their brain functions at its best. How do we as parents support our kids going through there without them feeling like they're broken, which happens quite a lot. And they're treated that way often in school. That's been a big issue for my daughter and I. How do we help them maintain that sense of self-esteem and that belief in themselves and help them find their strengths?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (21:30)
Great question. and as you can imagine, I could talk all day about it, right? So everything I do is about that. my, my short answer is you take a coach approach, a neurodiversity informed coach approach. When, when I learned how to use coaching skills to communicate differently with my kid and with their teachers and with everybody else around them, it shifted everything. If I were to point to what's fundamental to that, it's about.

It's about cultivating a sense of agency, fostering their ownership and helping them see their why, what's in it for them. And, you know, collaborative problem solving, but not just what are the lacking skills, which is great, but still deficit based, right? But to say, okay, so I was, was working with a client this morning, her kids are younger. So maybe, maybe I can extrapolate this to a teenage example. Okay.

Because we do a lot of work with parents of teens and young adults. We have groups for parents of teens and groups for parents of young adults. You got a kid who's trying to get out the door to go to school, who wants to go to school, who is having a really hard time waking up in the morning. And maybe they don't want to go to school, and that's a different conversation. But let's assume you've gotten the relationship. So you lean into the relationship and you build some trust and you're communicating better. And you've gotten to the point where you're collaborating and they want to be able to get to school, but it's a struggle.

Okay, we all know the scenario. It happens a lot. Okay, so in our model, we talk about taking aim. So understand that what I've just said is the assumption that you've done a lot of work already. You've really leaned into the relationship. You've built trust because what happens with teens is we fall out of trust with them and they fall out of trust with us and they fall out of trust with themselves. So done that work and we're communicating better. So now we can begin to really collaborate.

So you start by taking aim, and instead of taking aim on mornings, you say, okay, what's the one thing that if we change that, it's gonna start having a cascading effect? What's the one tweak? And it might be getting out of bed when the alarm goes off. Okay, so they've set the alarm, the alarm's going off, you're walking by, you're trying not to yell and scream because they're not getting out of bed, and then you say, you gotta get out of bed, and then they get mad at you because you're already aggravated, right? We don't know the scenario at all, I'm sure.

So collaborative problem solving would be going to the kid and saying, I really get that you're trying to get out to go to school in the morning on time and that it's hard and that you're setting your alarm. How do you want me to handle it when I do hear the alarm going off and you haven't gotten out of bed? What would you like me to do? So now that you're not saying you need to, you're assuming that by this point you've been collaborating and now they've taken ownership. They've got the agency. They just need some help. How can I support you?

What would be useful for you? And this is a really true story. When we took this approach with my eldest at the time, who was maybe a little young, maybe 15, 14, 15. And after trying every alarm and the bed shaking alarm and the alarm that ran across the room, and we tried everything, Nothing was working. They said, don't you come in with a spray bottle? Now, a water bottle.

Kids don't try this at home. I am not suggesting to any of your parents that you go get a spray bottle and tell your kid you're going to. But this came from my kid, this idea, because they like to play and they're very playful with their father. And so we were like, OK, you sure? Yeah, I'm sure. Whatever. Right. So we get in there and I'm down in the kitchen one morning and I hear this really loud noise and it's like really loud and I go running upstairs and my husband and my child are hysterically laughing.

My child has got the corner of the bed by the hands on the ground and their dad's got their ankle and is pulling them across the floor and they're pulling the bed across the floor. Okay. And it's loud and they're cackling with laughter and they may have been late to school because we were having so much fun. Right. But, the notion here was that we were supporting them in their agenda of trying to get out of bed instead of making it our agenda.

So we need to want for them more than we want from them. And if we want for them to support them in their agenda, then we can do all kinds of crazy things because it's their agenda. And we're just experimenting with them and helping them try different things. But if it's our agenda and we're like, well, you need to set the alarm and put it across the room and you should be like, if our hands are on our hips, we're probably not collaborating, right?

Dr. Cam (26:24)
We're not, are, I love that for them, not what you expect from them is beautiful. And once again, this is good for every child, not just neurodiverse. Like this is foundational.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (26:28)
Yes, for them, not from them. Because so much.

Everybody, right? That's right.

Well, it has to do with whose expectations is it, right? Because we have this tendency to assume that if we expect something or the world expects something of us and our kids, that that's the right thing. And the truth is, I mean, the big shift in my family happened when I stopped trying to listen to the world's expectations and I started meeting my kids where they were and figuring out what was an appropriate expectation to set for this kid at this time in this moment. Like that's the shift. It's meet them where they are and raise the bar from there. Instead of setting the bar up here because everybody should because they're 12 or 15 or 22, you know, like that just doesn't work.

Dr. Cam (27:12)
It doesn't work. That was your alarm that you have to go, wasn't it? Yeah, so yeah, I think this is so key because it is, it's giving them ownership. And also if our kids are neurodiverse, and as we just said, we all are, it doesn't mean our solution is going to work for them because we have a different brain than they do. So when we keep trying to push our solution,

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (27:24)
It's okay. We'll wrap up. They'll be there in a minute.

Dr. Cam (27:50)
onto them and they get mad at them for not using our solution wisely, we're the ones at fault.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (27:57)
That's right. I just went upstairs after talking to this client and told my husband, I'm like, do you remember being the weatherman? He's like, what are you talking about? We wanted to change warnings and we worked with our kids and I sat down with him. like, what will work? And our kids are the ones who said to me, one, we need to wake up earlier. I was letting them wait till the last couple of minutes because I wanted them to get to sleep. They're like, we're not getting enough time and you're rushing us. And two, we don't want to rush. And three, we don't want you to tell us we're running late.

So they came up with the idea that at a certain agreed upon time, instead of coming out and saying, you need to be downstairs in 10 minutes, dad would come out and give them the weather report. And when he gave the weather report, they knew what time it was. It gave them an idea of what to wear and they could manage their time around that. And I can't say it was a perfect fix immediately, but I can say that it worked and we used it for years because it was their idea was their agency, it worked for them. I wouldn't have come up with it, it was brilliant. Right?

Dr. Cam (28:58)
Yeah. Yep. I love that. And when you think about it, the more important skill is not getting up. It's figuring out how you get up. That's the skill. So if we take that away from them, then we're taking away their ability to learn to problem solve, which is a complex skill that you have to practice over over over again.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (29:08)
Yes. Our job as parents, I think, is to be in the process of problem solving with our kids again and again and again and again and And letting them lead, collaborate, support, collaborate. We have a model where there are four phases of parents. And so the middle two that we need to be in most of all is collaborate with them until, share the agenda till it's their agenda and then support them in their agenda. Share the agenda.

Dr. Cam (29:31)
and letting them lead.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (29:50)
until it's their agenda and then move in to support them in their agenda. And we just wanna keep doing that again and again as often as we can.

Dr. Cam (29:57)
Yeah, I love that. So what is one takeaway that you want to make sure parents step away with from this episode?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (30:06)
my gosh, what I really want to do is say to the parents listening, what's one insight you've gotten from this conversation? What's one thing you want to take away from this conversation that you want to apply in your life? Because that, I could tell them, right? And I would say that probably if I were to give you one, it would be, God, there's so many is to lean into the relationship, right? Build the trust, because that's where it all comes from. And I also want them to think about what they take away from this, because it's really, that's what's most important.

Dr. Cam (30:40)
I love that. you just modeled. Well, that's what I was just pointing out is you just modeled how to coach. You're not telling them the answer. You are basically just setting it up for them to figure out the answer. So that was a beautiful example of exactly what we want parents to be doing. I love that. Aline, how do, how do people find you?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (30:50)
Yeah. Thank you. This was great.

Well, we have a podcast too. And if you're listening, you're probably a podcaster. So the Parenting with Impact podcast, wherever you podcast, where sometimes I interview experts, sometimes it's Diane and me, know, spitballing about what's been going on. Sometimes we have clients on and do success stories. So it's fun. we're coming up next year. We'll hit our 200th episode. So good podcast, great blog, great website, impactparents.com.

Lots of free gifts and downloads and you know come check us out if you are a parent of a complex kid of any age 4 to 44 There's lots of stuff to help you learn how to take a coach approach. That's neurodiversity informed And you know whether it's taking our sanity school class or joining coaching groups or listen to the podcast Come play with us

Dr. Cam (31:57)
That's fantastic. What a great resource. Thank you for doing that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (32:01)
Thank you. Thanks for asking. Thanks for having me. I hope I know we've had to cut this a little short, so maybe I can come back and we can play again. I'm inviting myself back because you're great.

Dr. Cam (32:07)
We can have there's so much to do. Invite yourself. There's so much I can come on your show. We can talk about it there too. Yeah, this we can talk for this about hours. Talk about this for hours. All right. Thank you so much. All right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus (she/her) (32:14)
That would be great. We're going to do it. We'll do it here. Absolutely. Thanks for having me again.

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding.

#ParentingTeens #Neurodiversity #ADHDParenting #TeenConfidence

In this episode, Dr. Cam sits down with Dr. Fiona Ghiglione to dive into the complex world of teen girl friendships. They discuss the challenges of peer pressure, loneliness, and relational aggression, as well as how parents can help their daughters build healthy, lasting relationships. Dr. Ghiglione shares practical strategies for navigating friendship drama, understanding the "seasons" of friendships, and teaching girls to handle social struggles with confidence. The episode also explores the impact of social media on teen friendships and why parents should focus on empowerment over rescue.

• Why teen girl friendships can be so challenging
• How to help your daughter navigate friendship drama without taking over
• The impact of relational aggression and social media on teen friendships
• How to recognize the "seasons" of friendships and support your teen through them
• Practical strategies to build your daughter’s confidence and resilience in friendships

• Teen friendships can be tough. Many girls struggle with peer pressure, loneliness, and relational aggression.
• Middle school is peak friendship drama. Understanding these challenges helps parents guide their daughters effectively.
• Friendships evolve over time. Teaching your teen about the different “seasons” of friendships can help them navigate change.
• Create a safe space for open conversations. Encourage your daughter to express her feelings without immediately jumping in to fix problems.
• Empower, don’t rescue. Equip your teen with tools to handle conflict, rather than solving issues for them.

Help other parents find the support they need! Share your favorite episode, leave a rating and review, and don’t forget to hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode!

• Free Resource: Download 10 Mindful Practices for Preteens PDF
• Exclusive Offer: Get €20 off your first mentoring session by emailing Fiona directly at fiona@motheringgirls.com

00:00 Navigating the Challenges of Teen Friendships
03:59 Understanding the Dynamics of Friendship Drama
09:59 The Seasons of Friendships: Navigating Mean Behavior
20:06 Supporting Our Daughters Through Friendship Struggles
27:59 Empowering Girls to Build Healthy Relationships

• Website: MotheringGirls.com
• Instagram: @motheringgirls
• LinkedIn: Dr. Fiona Ghiglione

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

THE FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:02)

Navigating friendships can be really challenging for our teen girls, right? As parents, it's tough to watch them struggle with feelings of loneliness, peer pressure, and the occasional friend drama or a lot of friend drama. All we want is for our daughters to feel happy, connected, and surrounded by friends who truly support them. I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Fiona Giglione, an assistant professor, educator, and the founder of Mothering Girls.

Fiona specializes in coaching girls on building friendships, boosting self-confidence, and navigating the complexities of social media too. In our conversation today, we're going to dive into some effective strategies to help empower our daughters to build meaningful friendships, handle toxic friendships, and boost their confidence as a friend. Welcome Dr. Fiona, how are you?

Fiona (00:50)

Very good. Thank you for inviting me today. It's wonderful to be here.

Dr. Cam (00:54)

Absolutely. So Dr. Fiona, first start with how did you, what inspired you to start mothering girls?

Fiona (01:02)

Well, my journey with mother and girls really started through my own experience raising my own girls. And there's one specific experience I had when my eldest daughter was nine and my youngest daughter was five. I was living in Singapore at the time and I just began noticing that the commentary and the way that people were interacting with our girls, my daughters and also their friends started changing quite radically. know, when they were five and six and they were running around in their frozen dresses, people's commentaries would be, aren't they wonderful? You know, I love her confidence and her spark or how wonderful is it to have girls? And I just found that when the girls started kind of edging towards the preteen years, so we kind of, eight, nine, sure, they had a bit more sass, you know.

But the commentary, just, was very aware of what people were saying and how it was changing. It was, it was kind of becoming more, you know, wait until she's in the teen years or, you know, girls are really emotional and, know, and I was hearing from boy moms saying, you know, I'm glad, glad I don't have boys, you know. And as a research psychologist, I suppose, like I,

I couldn't stop thinking about this. couldn't stop and wonder two questions in particular I had in my head. Like the first one was, what is this doing to our girls? Like our girls were hearing this, know, mom's talk in this way. And I'm thinking, what messages are they receiving from this? You know, about what it is to be a girl heading into these years, like you know what are the teen years going to be like, but also just their emotions, you know, is it safe to, you know, explore my emotions, say my emotions or not? Anyway, that was the first question. And then the second question that kept on my mind was, if we take this fear based approach, if we're really going into these years afraid and thinking they're going to be the worst, what's that doing to our relationship with our girls? I mean, we know about what happens in the prefrontal cortex or in our brains in general, when we are under, you know, a fear response, we close off, we change the way that we change what we're paying attention to. We change, you know, how we're feeling about each other and we're we're less curious. So I guess I just started leaning into this. started researching a little bit more and thinking about it a bit more and thinking we need a different way. We definitely needed a different narrative, but I wanted to be able to maybe fill the gap a little bit and help parents do it a bit differently and help, you know, kind of empower the girls. Yeah.

Dr. Cam (03:50)

I love that. that's one thing too, Dr. Fiona, that I will talk about too, is that when we go into the teen years with this preconceived notion of what those teen years are going to be like, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because we approach it already without understanding, we approach it with assumption, and it goes way south very quickly. So I love that you are out there correcting that assumption, changing that story so we don't approach it from that perspective and we give our girls a chance. That's amazing. So let's, today we really want to talk about friendships because I know this particularly is difficult for teen, tween and teen girls, especially middle school. Middle school is like friendship hell. Let's just put it real, right? This is where all the friendship drama comes. There's a lot of friendship, like emotional bullying.

Fiona (04:31)

Yeah, absolutely. 100%.

Dr. Cam (04:58)

My daughter personally went through a lot of drama and teen. She's 18. She's still traumatized by the experience of friendships and going bad. So first explain to us, why do friendships become so difficult at this age for girls?

Fiona (05:05)

If we look at the research, there are a few things that we're seeing, okay. We're seeing, and some of them are quite concerning trends, I would have to say. We're seeing increases in relational aggression. We're seeing increases in a kind of narcissism, self-centeredness, increases in loneliness, and decreases in empathy, okay. So, when you put this all together and you put it in alongside the rise of technology, it makes for a very curious picture as to like, what is going on with our girls? And girls in general, like, they place a lot of emphasis on friendships. It's very important for them. And I think that there's all of that happening, but then there's also, when I'm talking to girls directly, girls want closer friendships. They want less drama. It's not like they want, you know, they're creating this because it's fun. So there's these two things happening in parallel. They want closer friendship, they want support, they want help, and they also want a good relationship with parents as well.

It's hard to unpack exactly why this is happening. think technology is playing a big factor in it, in the way that it's changing relationships and the way that we communicate. But yeah, I guess alongside the challenges that we're facing, we also have girls who are willing to do it differently if they have the guidance and the support.

Dr. Cam (06:56)

At this age too, the relationships become a lot more complex, right? It's no longer like, you like this toy and I like this toy, so we must be friends. The dynamics become much deeper and kids are trying to figure out. And as you mentioned, the need to belong becomes extremely important at this age. So making friends, basically kids look at them, their value based on do other people like me? And so when people, when they're struggling to make friends, they're getting this message, I'm not that likable. And so they kind of get deeper. But then there's also the kids. So we've got self-esteem issues there, but then we've got the kids, particularly the girls that are mean. Where does this meanness come from and this need to kind of gang up on other girls or to emotionally shut them out sometimes. Where does that come from?

Fiona (07:54)

I just wanted to stop for a second and just say it is such a difficult thing to watch your child go through this. And heartbreaking almost to have girls come home and say things like, you know, I was alone on the playground today or, you know, my friends created a WhatsApp group and they left me, so just being able to hear this is so, so hard for us as parents to know how to help. And we are shocked as to like why girls are so mean. And it can, you know, obviously be amplified by the fact that, you know, if we've had meanness when we were younger, you know, that can be even more difficult for us. So, but I'm a very big believer that friendships in middle school and high school are also an amazing training ground for relationships in life. Okay. And we know that in life, there are plenty of mean people and there are plenty of people who do mean things, right? And so one of the ways that I try to explain it to the families that I work with is that friendships have different seasons. And if we are to help our girls understand why people doing these different things, understand the behaviors that might come up. And also know how to deal with them. We need to have specific nuanced tools for different parts of different seasons that they're gonna go through and they're gonna face. And mean behavior is one of those. You can understand like mean behavior is winter. Winter is where there's storms and serious challenges and so we need to be able to really give girls tools to be able to deal with mean behavior. And so, know, mean behavior is relational aggression. We know that girls do that a lot more than boys leaving, you know, leaving other girls out gossip, you know, and bullying, you know, bullying falls under this winter category of like really toxic behavior of, you know, on purpose power differential repetitive kind of behaviours.  

Dr. Cam (10:19)

One of the things I see is that bullying almost comes from the same place of the needing to belong because it is a way when you join forces with other people to make this other person the scapegoat, you're connecting with them. So it's an unhealthy way to connect because someone gets, but the underlying need is exactly the same, which is why it's very hard to stop that because they're getting their needs filled by connecting with somebody. So I love this idea of the different weathers and talking to our kids about our friendships are going to go through different seasons. Help us understand how to help our kids, especially when, let's talk about the different seasons. So we're going through a season where all of a sudden it feels like your friends are turning against you. You're like, they were my friend.

Fiona (10:51)

100%.

Dr. Cam (11:13)

Now someone else came into the dynamic and is taking them away or they're saying mean things to me. How do we help our girls address that? That's a hard one for parents too because we're like, I just want to fix it.

Fiona (11:26)

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think the first thing to really delve into is to inquire, right? We need to spend some serious time with our girls inquiring, okay, tell me what did that look like? What was it like at lunchtime? What did you do? What did your friends do? And trying to unpack instead, rather than jumping in and judging and, that's it, I'm gonna, mama bear I'm going to fix this problem for you. We want to inquire first. We want to get a good picture of what's going on, you know, and in part of that picture, we also want to understand like what's going on for our daughter as well, you know. And then of course, you know, we want to empathise with her and really help her understand that if she's feeling left out and she, you know, she's feeling sad, like that is a normal reaction to that kind of behaviour. You know, I would feel that way and sitting with that for a while, you know, so that she has that kind of, she has that person that really is helping her process it in a different way, right? But I think a lot of like, it depends on how toxic, what the toxicity is, right? I mean, I think there's two ways that I teach girls that they can deal with toxic behavior. First one is like a quick comeback, you know, having those things that we can say to other girls who are doing things on purpose, you know, quick comeback like, Whoa, that was harsh. Being able to get out of the situation if they need and giving themselves permission to be able to leave. And obviously if things are extreme, girls, and this is part of educating around winter is that those red flags, if you see those red flags, this is time where you need help. You need to get someone to come in and help you with these things.

When we're looking at some of the other seasons like, know, friendship conflicts, there is a difference between friendship conflicts. Yeah. And they need to, if they understand what autumn is and they understand what winter is, you know, friendship conflicts will happen because we're complex human beings and we like, we will have different interests and we will have different opinions. And, know, these things come up a lot in with girls, right? You know, one wants to play this one wants to play that or you know, misinterpretation of things that they've said at school. And so it is also really important for our girls to be able to learn to kind of step away and think about that. Like, you know, take five is a teacher, a lot of the girls that I work with just take five, leave the situation if you can think about this, if it's not an urgent situation, if it's not a dangerous situation, everything can wait five minutes or overnight even before you respond. And to really be able to like, you know, to think about what did you want? What did she want? You know, what is going on here? Like what is the conflict about and trying to help girls unpack that, you know? Yeah. And I think the interesting thing is that like, you know, they're confused. That's where the relationship with us comes in. Right? Like we need to be building foundations early in the preteens that our girls feel comfortable coming to us. They feel like it's a safe space. They're not going to be judged, that they're not going to be burdened with solutions from us, that they can come and they can process these things and find solutions in the vicinity of like us.

Dr. Cam (14:51)

I think the big thing I see too is when we're going through this, and I like the quick comebacks. I saw an interview with Christine Chenoweth the other day and she learned to just say, I'm going to pray for you. When people said nasty things, she would just reply, well, I will pray for you. And it just kind of threw people off because it was like, But I think also understanding how we can help support our kids, having that connection with them so that they learn not to create this as part of their identity as I'm not a good friend or I'm not likable and change it to I'm a good friend, I'm likable, they're not the right person for me. How do we help them distinguish that so they don't create this low self-esteem because they can't keep some of these toxic friendships?

Fiona (15:45)

I think that's where, it's so important for us as parents to keep budding new connections, like, and give them as many friendship experiences as possible. Because if you think about it, like if that's the only experience of relating, right. And that's, and it's negative and that's all they're getting, then of course it's easy to see that you're the generalization that you're going to be making is that there's something wrong with me. Now, if you've got plenty of different friendship groups and in some of those groups they celebrate you and they lift you up and they think you're amazing and then in other groups not so much. Then you can start to generalise, okay hold on, wait, but if I'm okay there then it couldn't be me because you've got these other experiences and I feel like sometimes it goes wrong because we put so much emphasis on this one best friend or this group of friends. And our girls, you know, don't have that diversity of experience. mean, it's also good for them to just learn how to relate to different people, right? In different settings and have that experience as well. And it's doing great things for their brain as well.  

Dr. Cam (17:07)

It's very important to do that. know, I mean, like I said, my daughter had so much trauma in a certain friendship group in middle school, but what she came out of was, how do I recognize a good friend from a not good friend? And so her friendships now are incredible. It's a small group and it's people that support her for her. And so she was able to come through that getting a very important skill and I think it's helping our kids learn that. One thing I think parents come from though and we fear a little bit is when we see our kids struggling with friendships, that taps into our fear. Like, how is my kid not going to be liked? What do I need to do? And we start focusing very hard on making them more likable to people. Like, how do I fix my kid to be more likable? I've seen this, you know, a lot. Well, their behavior needs to change. Is that okay? Should we be doing that or what message is that sending to our kids?

Fiona (18:14)

Yeah, I tried really hard to stray away from the whole likeability, you know, concept. But what I do talk to girls a lot about is, you know, and this happens, what I find is girls are often very lonely, even if they're in friendship, sometimes they feel this loneliness, right? And so I ask them when, because they want more connection. So when do you feel the most connected? And when do you feel the least connected? what's happening and we unpack that a little bit. So instead of focusing on, on likability, focusing on quality, the quality of the relationship of like, of what does it give her? How does she feel, you know, and helping her, it's almost, it's a little bit of like of an experiment really. It's like helping her think about this on a regular basis means that, you know, sometimes my daughter will come home and she said today, mom, I had a great friendship day because you know, my friend, you know, said something nice to me or whatever. And I'd say, well, you know, that sounds like you really felt like you were connected in that moment. And over time we unpack like those. And so she'll look for that more, you know, if she feels more connected when she's talking about something that she really loves with a friend, you know, or they're doing something specific together, then you, can look for more of those kinds of moments. And that's where you see your girls light up and have that spark, you know, in friendships. and then she'll stay away from the red flag, the things that don't connect her. there's a whole, we could have a whole talk on like technology and friendships. But friendship, there's so much to unpack about connections online. And I talked to my daughter about how did you feel when you were talking to your friends online? How do you feel when you're at face-to-face doing things face-to-face? There's a really different feeling that you get when you're speaking in these different apps or whatever versus having real life connections. So I think it's important to focus on that for the girls.

Dr. Cam (20:16)

There's so many pieces to this. Can we do a quick kind of step by step? Your daughter comes home, she's really upset, she's having friend drama, her friends are being mean. What do parents do in that moment?

Fiona (20:37)

I think the first thing to do is to go get a tea and to take her to a spot that she feels comfortable in and to just give her time to talk about it. No advice, no, you know, we can ask questions, but just let her talk and get it out and be a safe space for that. you know, I feel like it's really important for her to express all of that emotion and get it all out, but I think sometimes there's a point at which you can, there can be co-rumination, right? Like you're talking about it so much that you're not, there's, there's, not going anywhere. So I think at some stage it's good to kind of pivot to what would you like to do about this? You know, what can we, what's in your control? What, let's think about some things that you could do. Some things you can say, do you need extra support? You know, let's make a plan kind of thing together. 

Dr. Cam (21:34)

Nothing in that was, let's fix this, let's go yell at the other parents, let's go make sure that you get to be friends. Like there's no pressure to have to have friends. And I think that's one of the things I see a lot, that parents get so worried if their kids are struggling with friends, that it becomes more about how do I get my kid to have friends rather than how do I help my kid just feel okay as they are right now. And once they feel confident, making friends is a lot easier, but feeling the pressure to make friends when you're not feeling good about yourself just makes you feel worse about yourself. So I love that it's just, just let them talk, validate what they're feeling, let them go through it. And then what's in your control. that's spot on perfect. I love it.

Fiona (22:12)

100%. What is really interesting with the, you know, what you were saying about jumping in and calling friends, you know, the parents of the friends which happened, you know, we want to do, but what can happen, and it's happened with me many times with my girls, is that that same friend, you know, can move into a different season with our daughters and they become best friends, you know, and they work it out on their own or, know, and so this little girl that like, you know, was doing all these main things and then she's coming over to my house and spending like afternoons at my house and I see a totally different side to her. So I feel like if we jump in too soon, she misses the learning that comes from it, but also you never know what's gonna happen with these friendships and these girls, like they're just learning.

Dr. Cam (23:11)

It is such a good point. Like, we can't take sides. We can't beat up the other girl because you're right, they may become friends and then that's all. But we also don't want to sit there and just take our kid's side. Like, we don't want to make sure we take the other kid's side too and be like, well, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? And take the kid's perspective that is being mean to our kid or is pushing them away because then our kid doesn't feel like we're on their side. No sides are taken. We're just listening.

Very important, yeah. I think we get tempted to talk about, and I've even done this, like kind of put the other person down going, well, they don't deserve you as a friend, but that is not a good move either. Tempting.

Fiona (23:54)

Yeah, it's really complex. you know, and there are a lot of ands. I talked to the girls about this as well. you know, what are you feeling? And what is she feeling? And sometimes it's even what are you feeling? And she will say sad and angry and kind of, you know, like there's so much complexity. It just goes on and on. And so I think it's important to see that it is more than just what she's feeling. It's what other girl's feeling it's what the context is you know so there's a lot of ends there to be able to explore as well with her yeah.

Dr. Cam (24:25)

That's a great way to do it because it is important for them to look at the other side because it's easy to just get stuck. But we can do it the way you're saying it is a way to do it without taking sides. It's just helping them dig a little bit deeper. So what have we missed? I wanted to ask you. So what happens if your kid, your daughter is the one being mean to somebody else? How do we address that?

Fiona (24:54)

Well, I think that that can be very difficult because sometimes we don't see that. And so where do we get the information from? So if it's something that, you know, a parent, a teacher has observed, I think then then we have some good data to be able to go to and say, look, this is this seems to be what's happening. Tell me about this. Like what happened? And I think we always need to give our girls the opportunity to be able to speak for themselves because it's very easy to misinterpret. And also where's the learning in it, right? We want our girls to be able to not feel judged and shamed about the whole thing, but we wanna understand like, you know, what was going on so that we can then help prevent it in the future. So always starting obviously with just asking her about it. And I think it's the same kind of process. It's you've got to want it. You want to sit with the other emotions. Maybe she was feeling angry, you know, and then, and you know, talking about what she did and how effective that was in getting what she wanted. and then being able to unpack, like, what would you do differently? You know? but you know, sometimes if I guess, if it's repetitive, you want to get some professional help to be able to get help her kind of break that habit and dig a bit deeper as to what's going on..

Dr. Cam (26:13)

It's so what you were saying is so important. It's about getting to the why of why they're doing it rather than the assumption of, my gosh, my kid is becoming a bully and bad kid. And now I'm going to be just show them my disappointment in that behavior and try to punish them because they need to stop that behavior. And we're not addressing what's actually going on underneath. So we could be actually piling more on the very thing that's making them feel like they need to bully and making it worse rather than making it better. So I love that we're giving them the benefit of the doubt and understanding what is this coping mechanism or what is the purpose of doing this? What are they getting from it? Because it may be a sense of belonging, right?

Fiona (26:45)

Absolutely. And I think, but I also think that, you know, these kinds of behaviors sometimes come, these impulsive behaviors come from a sense of not being able to regulate your emotion, right? Like you can feel really scary, especially to an eight or a nine year old, to have this huge angry emotion to something that's happened to them, right? And they don't know where to take that, what to do with that. And that's why I think I'm such a big advocate for, know, mindfulness in terms of being able to give them the tools to be able to bring their nervous system back into a parasympathetic kind of state so that they then have the capacity to be able to think clearly in these situations. But yeah, it's tough.

Dr. Cam (27:39)

That's really important. So of all that we've talked about, what is the big action item or takeaway that parents need to have from this to help their daughters navigate their tricky friendships?

Fiona (27:59)

Look, I think that don't underestimate how important you are as a parent, like, and how much role overall you're going to play in being able to guide them to, have healthy relationships, not just friendships, but relationships down the track. Like we are coaching them through this. are like, we are a secure base and we don't want to join the storm. want to like, just, we want them to come to us and ground them and help them learn something really valuable from that. Right.

So all of these things are important teaching moments. And I think that like we shouldn't underestimate just how important we are and how much the girls want us to come to us to be able to talk to us about these things. So we need to be really be showing them from early that it is safe, it's okay. And that we are here to kind of, know, give them the tools that they need, suppose. Yeah.

Dr. Cam (28:53)

Don't join the storm. That's awesome. That's exactly it. Don't join the storm. Be the center. Be the part that helps outside. Calm the storm. Let them be the calming space for them to calm their storm. Love that. Amazing. Dr. Fiona, where can people find you?

Fiona (28:56)

Don't join the storm. You can find me on Instagram at motheringgirls and I think, will you share my website? Yeah.

Dr. Cam (29:20)

I will put all the links in the show notes for sure. Thank you.

Fiona (29:23)

Yeah, and I have a friendship journal that kind of guides girls through the different stages of friendship. So it has some tools, has some tips, and lots of fillable pages so that they can reflect on their own friendships along the way.

Dr. Cam (29:28)

That's fantastic. I will definitely include that link too. It sounds like a really great tool. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Fiona. Appreciate it.

Fiona (29:48)

You're welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful.

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you're struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding.

#teenfriendships #parentingtips #raisingteengirls #friendshipdrama

Dr. Cam and Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein take a deep dive into the impact of gender bias and sexism on young girls. They discuss how societal messages affect girls' confidence, self-worth, and opportunities. Dr. Finkelstein shares powerful insights on validating girls' experiences, teaching self-advocacy, and redefining their value beyond appearance. The conversation also highlights the importance of helping girls express emotions like anger, recognize microaggressions, and take up space in a world that often tries to shrink them. Plus, they explore how parents can raise empathetic sons who challenge gender norms.

• How gender bias and societal expectations impact girls' confidence
• Why teaching girls to express anger and take up space is crucial
• The power of validating girls’ experiences and building self-advocacy skills
• How to raise sons who recognize and challenge gender bias
• Practical ways parents can help their daughters navigate sexism

• Girls receive constant messages of invisibility and unworthiness. Parents play a key role in reshaping these narratives.
• Validating girls' experiences is essential. It helps them feel heard and strengthens their self-esteem.
• Teaching girls self-advocacy starts early. Encouraging them to speak up and set boundaries builds confidence.
• Society often prioritizes masculine traits. It’s important to teach girls (and boys) that all traits have value.
• Empowering girls requires action. Parents must actively challenge bias, model emotional expression, and foster resilience.

Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode, leave a rating and review, and help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical, real-world parenting strategies. Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode!

• Free Resource: Download 10 Mindful Practices for Preteens PDF
• Exclusive Offer: Work with Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein by visiting Jo-Ann Finkelstein

00:00 Understanding Gender Bias and Its Impact
06:05 Empowering Girls in a Biased World
14:10 Redefining Value Beyond Appearance
19:07 Building Confidence and Advocacy Skills
22:11 Empowering Girls to Express Emotions
25:00 Teaching Girls to Take Up Space
28:25 Recognizing and Addressing Microaggressions
32:49 Navigating Gender Bias and Self-Advocacy
37:11 Raising Empathetic Sons
42:24 Key Takeaways for Parents

• Website: Jo-Ann Finkelstein
• Instagram: @JoAnnFinkelstein
• LinkedIn: Jo-Ann Finkelstein

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

Dr. Cam (00:00)

In today's episode, we tackle a critical issue that affects countless young girls, sexism and gender bias. Did you know that as of 2023, women still earn about 82 cents for every dollar earned by men or that women hold just 27 % of executive positions in Fortune 500 companies despite making up nearly half of the workforce? The reality is that gender bias starts early and can significantly impact girls' confidence, opportunities and futures. That's why I'm looking forward to talking to Dr. Joanne Finkelstein, a clinical psychologist and author of Sexism and Sensibility, Raising Empowered Resilient Girls in the Modern World. Dr. Finkelstein is here to share practical strategies for protecting our daughters from these pervasive issues, fostering their resilience and empowering them to navigate a world where gender bias still unfortunately exists.

Welcome Dr.. Finkelstein.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (00:59)

It's so great to be here, Dr. Cam.

Dr. Cam (01:02)

So good to have you. So this is such an important topic. Let's start first. Why are you interested in this? What kind of inspired you to talk about and help girls deal with gender bias and sexism?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (01:16)

I grew up in Canada. You know, I live in the States, but I grew up in Canada with three brothers. Canada, know, hockey is a national obsession. So I like to tell this story because it didn't make it into the book, but it has become family lore. And my family was really surprised that it didn't make it into the book. In any case. My three brothers, like they love to play hockey and I wanted to play too. So I asked my parents for, you know, a hockey stick. And to my delight, they bought me one. But to my horror, it was bright pink and looked like a toy version of my brother's. And by the way, you will find out along the way, I don't have anything against pink, but that is not what I was looking for, right?

Dr. Cam (01:47)

But it was a big statement.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (02:09)

It was a big statement and I've worked with girls and women for the last 24 plus years in my private practice. And what I discovered is that my pink hockey stick is every girl's story, right? Girls constantly get messages that make them feel unseen, unheard, not taken seriously. And I witness, right, on a daily basis how harmful these messages are to my patient's sense of self and sense of potential. The messages aret hey seem small, right? But they're like tiny psychological paper cuts that accumulate and become these festering wounds of self-doubt over time. And growing up, when I would get upset about gender differences, people insisted that they didn't exist or they'd say, you're too sensitive or stop being so dramatic. And all your listeners out there, they know this, right? Because they're classic comments. But at the time, I didn't know that. So in any case,

Fast forward to avoid criticism, I learned to hide my feelings and it wasn't until years later when I was doing a master's degree that I really began to understand that experience. And it happened because I mentioned in a paper for my developmental psychology class that I'd been accused of overreacting when I felt demeaned. And the professor scribbled in the margins, that's what people say to talk girls out of their feelings. It was such a validating moment for me.

Dr. Cam (03:34)

That's great.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (03:35)

So basically, to get to a long story, validating girls' experiences and opening parents' eyes to the effects of sexism and gender bias are why I wrote the book. There two reasons why I

Dr. Cam (03:50)

I love that. And I think awareness is so important because I see even women being biased and sexist to other women because it is so great, you know, just pounded in our head. And I can remember, because I mean, anybody that is an adult woman has either experienced most likely a lot or knows people that have experienced extreme sexism and gender bias. And I remember pointing out at one point at a job that the traits of a leader as defined of what a leader is are traits that define the typical best traits of a man and what defines a bitch as a woman. You're, you, you have no chance. Yeah, you have no chance of being a leader because if you're a woman and have the traits of a leader, then you are disliked so much. So it's,

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (04:32)

That is exactly right. And it's true. I mean, it's bears out in the research. Right, or if you do become a leader, right, you are jumping through so many hoops to not be perceived as a bitch and then often you are, are, you know, sort of like what's happening with Kamala Harris and, you know, people are saying you're too soft. So you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Dr. Cam (04:49)

I think calling attention to these and also calling attention and they've shown so many times that actually some of the traits that are typical, there are gender differences. We've got to be real with that. But I think what it is is what we value is more of the masculine and what we use is insults. Like you fight like a girl, you run like a girl, you do this like a girl. They're insults rather than showing some of the strengths that are typical feminine traits actually are amazing in different roles, but we undermine them. So let's start with, we've got our teen daughter and she's living in high school and she's getting these messages already. We already know that STEM is still something that girls are kind of looked over on. We know that, again, the sports are separated, everything like that. So how do we as parents start empowering our girls to see their worth?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (05:42)

That's a great question. And that's sort of my whole book. So let's unpack it. You know, I think the most important thing to remember is that we're playing the long game here. We can't just say, you know, the culture's broken, you're not broken. Right. But we we want them to understand that many of the messages that they're getting are informing their choices.

Dr. Cam (06:08)

Good! Let's go! Read to us your book!

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (06:34)

For instance, clothing. I know a lot of people are really interested when their kids are becoming teenagers about their wearing crop tops and showing a lot of cleavage and wearing heels before parents are ready for the kids to wear heels and all of that. And so we're trying to help them understand, we're between wanting them to make their own choices, feel good in their own bodies, embrace their budding sexuality, or at least be unashamed of it. But seeing themselves through a system that values them, that values women packaged for a marketplace of male desire leaves little room for pimples and tummy rolls. So we're trying to help them understand that As I once said to my daughter, a crop top or a cigar is just a cigar, but a crop top Brazilian wax and something else is, you know, not as free choice as it seems. And so over time, we're trying to help them see that the culture doesn't always respect women, that the culture values their their appearance and their sexuality over all of their other characteristics and that we're not going to let that happen and that we want them to see, we want them to make their own choices, we understand that feeling good in their body is really important and that nobody should be able to take that away from them. But at times it makes them unsafe, it makes them a target, and it makes them focus more on their bodies than on other things in their life that are important.

Dr. Cam (08:34)

Now, Dr. Drew, I want to unpack this a little bit because I think this is something that I, as a mom of a daughter, I've struggled with a lot because even in that, when our kids want to wear whatever is popular, right? And it is. They like to wear these cute little crop tops and they want to wear these things. we're like, you can't wear those because those sexualize you. But that's sexist right there because who are they sexualizing them to men? So we now have to change the way we dress to accommodate What men may think of us rather than to dress the way we feel comfortable and confident in that upsets me The focus is more on you can't wear something that might tempt some guy rather than teaching our men Not to treat women like that like women have to protect themselves rather than teaching men not to mistreat women. Why is that? You can tell I'm passionate about that.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (09:38)

Well, yeah, I mean, and I am too, and I'm glad to hear that in your voice because it's really not fair. And I think what we want parents, first of all, to understand is that people in everything or women in everything from bikinis to burkas are harassed or assaulted. So there's no research that shows that there is an association between what you wear and being assaulted. But we do want kids to understand that they may be treated differently. They may be seen as not as smart. And so we, you know, I think we can say to them exactly what you just said. It's not fair. You should not be responsible for anybody else's reactions to you. And I want you to know that you might be.

And so they're making the choices of how they dress from an informed place. And you know, by the way, most of the kids, until at least their later teens, what kids tell me all the time is, I'm not dressing for guys. And they're really not, right? They're dressing for their peers. They're dressing because that's the trend. This is what teen brands are selling. And they wanna fit in.

Dr. Cam (10:58)

They feel empowered when they wear this outfit. They feel empowered. And I think them being able to show who they are and feel empowered is so important. So I'm curious from your perspective, is it more important to say you shouldn't wear that because this might be how people see you or you should wear that because you feel empowered? Here's how to handle it when people treat you poorly.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (11:29)

I mean, I think it's really, you I don't like to tell people how to parent, but I, I, yes, we could forbid them to wear clothes they like and that help them fit in, but that does little for our relationship with them, Right, and it makes it us against, you know, rather than make it us against the culture, it makes it us against them. And the fight.

Dr. Cam (11:45)

or for their confidence.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (11:56)

over autonomy in general and clothing in particular, it just harms too many parent relationships. you know, my mantra is to educate, not control. And again, the long game over time, we want them to understand that the world is trying to package them in a certain way. And we want them to tune into what makes them feel good, what makes them comfortable. And so what makes them comfortable in the beginning is fitting in, right? And so, you know, if, so if they're gonna wear that, you know, and you normally don't want it, like as they're walking out the door, if you say something, you will shame them and they will be conscious of their body. So it's like, we want to be having these conversations in advance and like throughout the book I talk about all of the ways we can have conversations with our kids that are more abstract, that don't target them, that help them think in critical ways. And so yeah, you might say, I wouldn't tie it to the clothes, but I would say just being a girl, you might be walking to the store, you might be walking to a friend's house and you might get catcalled. Or how do you feel when you get catcalled, you know, depending on the age of the kid.

And you start a conversation about things that you can do, right? And there are ways we, there are often the safest thing to do is to just have them walk on, to ignore it. Sometimes that can escalate it because they want a reaction. So maybe you nod, but of course, a lot of kids and a lot of women, right? After the fact, they're like, I wish I had said this. I wish I had said that. And so you might give them three things that they can have up their sleeve if they deem it to be safe enough, like the guy's on the third floor and your ride is pulling up, then you can say, you know, is that the way you talk to your mom? Whatever it is, there's a variety of ways that I outline in the book that they can respond to a cat caller or to somebody who's making them feel bad about just existing.

Dr. Cam (13:59)

I'm thinking as we're talking about this, go, we right now are falling into the sexism, gender bias trap because we went right to appearance when we're talking about women. We did. We're women. We went right there. So how do we help our kids, our girls see themselves as far more valuable than their appearance and help them because right now when we protect our girls from so much, we're just continuing the sexism because we're protecting them from what's out there rather than helping them and helping them break through it. Right? So how do we empower our girls to see themselves for the value that they are, which is not this surface level appearance, which the world leads us to believe is our only value.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (15:13)

Right. And one of the reasons we went right there is because globally speaking, girls believe their most important asset is their appearance. Right. They're seeing it all over television. So, you know, one of the things is starting from when they're very young, we just don't comment on their appearance. And I know it's very natural to do that, A, because it's so ingrained in us.  

Dr. Cam (15:21)

Of course, because that's what they've grown up to learn.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (15:41)

be because they just are so cute to us, right? And so we want to say, you're so beautiful. But, know, always be body neutral. Don't focus on their body as much as possible. When you do focus on their body, make it about what their bodies can do, how they function, not how they look, right? You can start with your own body. my gosh, you have a dog that loves to be chased. Like I'm so lucky that I have these really strong legs that allow me to chase Rover, you know? What can your body do? And then as they get older, because we're talking about adolescents now, right, you're focusing on their character, their effort that they make, things that they weren't born with necessarily, or that they can apply in a mirror. 

Let's say there are times we can tell our kids they're beautiful, right? I mean, you don't want to like suppress it all of the time. There are times when. Well, you know what the thing is, it does.

Dr. Cam (17:17)

Yeah, because then they think they're ugly. If you're never told that they're beautiful, they'll go right to, must be ugly.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (17:26)

Well, the thing is the rest of the world is doing that for us. They're always commenting on their cute outfit and their cute nose. And so I think parents really don't have to fill in that much in that area. But what they can do, like if they've just had a big belly laugh with their daughter and they say, you are so beautiful, or they've just had this like incredible discussion about climate change and they say, you are so beautiful, then she knows you mean all of her.

And when they're balled up in tears and they're saying, I'm ugly, of course it's our natural instinct to say, what are you talking about? You are so beautiful. But that just sort of emphasizes that pretty is important. And we don't want to do that. And they don't believe us anyway, because if they think they're ugly, they're getting the message from their peers. They're getting messages from social media that they don't fit some standard. And so really we want to talk to them about there's these crazy standards out there.

Dr. Cam (18:08)

Correct.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (18:26)

and you may fit them or you may not fit them, but that's not what's important. What's important is that you, you know, and it's like, of course you want to fit in, you want to be beautiful. I personally think you're incredibly beautiful, but that's something you have to come to know on your own, right? Because they're just, they're not going to believe us if we just say you're beautiful. They don't.

Dr. Cam (18:47)

So what are some skills that we want to help our girls develop that sometimes gets overlooked with girls to help empower them to be that, to be a strong human being, to be a confident human being and to self advocate. That's a big one.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (19:06)

That's a big one. Yeah, I think one of the things that I talk about in the book is that girls don't grow up with a healthy sense of entitlement, right? When we think of the word entitlement, we usually think of it pejoratively, like it's somebody who's too demanding. But girls are actually not demanding enough. And that, Dr. Kam, starts in third grade. Really, there's research that shows by third grade girls stop asking for as much as boys, especially when they're negotiating with a man, right? So in one, they're negotiating for their favorite stickers and they can ask for anything they want, but they ask for two fewer than boys do. And here's the kicker, this reflects the gender gap in negotiation that we see in adulthood, right? So yes, we want, there's all kinds of fit all kinds of ways that we can that we are teaching them not to do that. And there are all kinds of ways that we can like I like to call it our and our parenting replace or recognize and replace. And so one of the things we can do is make sure you brought up advocating, right? Make sure that they're advocating for themselves. When they go out for dinner at the restaurant when they're at the vet. if they have a question, right? And you're working up to, from the time they're little, with them being able to speak out loud and hear their own voices. The other thing we do is we teach them to be likable more than we teach them to have the need for respect.

Another thing, they don't feel entitled to money. Right? Why? Because we don't talk to girls about money as much as we talk to boys. We actually don't pay them as much for chores, research shows. We don't save as much for college. I know. And one more thing is voice, right? Which is also what you're getting at with advocating is why don't we, why don't they feel as entitled to have a voice because we interrupt them. Men and women interrupt women more, right? And so if you live, if you have a daughter and there are men in the house, statistically speaking, she is being interrupted more than her brother. And so we can say, hey, wait a minute, I noticed you were being interrupted or, you know, just sort of alert brother when he's dominating the conversation and you can teach her it's okay to speak up. You will be interrupted in life. That is sometimes what happens. And we need to help you speak up because your voice is really important and what you have to say is very meaningful.

Dr. Cam (22:10)

I think that is so key because when we're raising kids, when we're raising girls, as parents, we have to make sure we listen to their voice too. I think we shut them down, especially if they sound like they're whining or they're sad, we shut down their sadness. We definitely shut down anger. One thing I've noticed is that girls struggle to express anger. It goes into tears. I know personally that's what I do because anger wasn't allowed for girls. so giving them freedom to be angry and express that anger right there, I think is so empowering.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (22:48)

Yes, I'm so glad you said that because, you know, good is the gold standard for girls in a way it isn't for boys and anger is not good. Right. And so I actually had a mom contact me after she read the book. Recently, she emailed me and said, I just read your book. And my God, I realized that I was shutting down my daughter's anger and strong opinions more than my sons, even though my son is more critical, even though my son has stronger opinions. And so what she did is she went to her daughter and said, I think this is what's happening. And I don't know why it's happening. I think maybe, you know, girls aren't supposed to have strong opinions. I know that girls with strong opinions often get shut down. So I'm having this like internalized sexist reaction. And her daughter started to cry from the recognition because she knew something was off. She would complain mom didn't listen to her, but it wasn't quite that. And so there was this real reparative moment where her mom could say, I'm doing this. And then, you know, it opens up space for the daughter to say, hey, mom, I think this is happening rather if it happens again, rather than it turn into this big fight, you never listen and stomp out of the room. And so, yeah, when one of the ways that I outline is tolerating girls' tolerating their anger, right? Which doesn't mean tolerating rudeness, but it does mean knowing that you get uncomfortable with their anger.

Dr. Cam (24:19)

It's so important because women need to know that they can say no. I think women get raised to be people pleasers because they get in less trouble when they just comply. I don't see men apologize for every little thing as much as I see women apologizing for like everything. I think women learn to make themselves small so they don't get in the way of other people.

How do we teach our girls to take up space?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (24:59)

I'm writing a sub-staff newsletter right now about modesty, because when we hear the word modesty, we sort of think of it as like so last century with like the long dresses and the high collars. Right. And but really there are all these other ways that we're teaching behavioral modesty, right? So that we and that's all part of being good, right? We ask girls to downplay their accomplishments so that they don't seem conceited. We ask them to, you know, for like the gentle handshakes and the soft-spokenness, like they're rewarded for that because it's so feminine, right? And so there's, we expect this demureness from them and that infiltrates everything. And so when they do speak up or when they do have something they want to say or do, they apologize first. Like, I'm so sorry that I want this or I'm so sorry that I need this, right? 

Dr. Cam (26:10)

It's hard. I, I noticed even with me, I will giggle after I say something that is either controversial or anything like that, just to, and I hate when I do that because I don't want to do it, but I, it's so instinctual to soften whatever I just said, to kind of, it is, it is my apology. It's my way apologizing for saying something that I don't need to apologize for.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (26:27)

I wrote a book about sexism and I still find myself people pleasing. And it's like it's it's because, you know, it's something that right from the time kids are little, we are rewarding girls for their cooperation and their collaboration and with boys. We don't teach that as much, right? And they actually come to see, like when we expect that from boys, it can start to seem emasculating. And, you know, so we, all the time we say, girls can be anything boys can be. Because like you were saying in the beginning, we value the masculine over the feminine, right? We value baseball over fashion. We value, you know, understanding finance over understanding intimacy, right? Right. And we talk to, and we talk, look, we use many more emotion-focused words with girls as infants than we do with boys. And with boys, we use more achievement-related language like proud, win, best. But of course, those are things, you know, being able to be, to own your sense of competitiveness and also being able to be emotional are important for everybody. So why are we doing this really binary thing? Because it's unconscious, because it's so much of what we learn, because we are magnifying these very small differences that we see in infants when they're born, right? But normally, but you know, research shows if you don't actually play into those differences, they disappear.

Dr. Cam (28:03)

How do we teach our girls to recognize these microaggressions against women? How do we teach them to recognize those and how to stand up for themselves in a way that, I mean, this isn't about being suddenly nasty or rude because that completely feeds into the stereotype too, right? Don't become a Karen. So how do we teach our girls to be assertive in situations where they feel like they're being mistreated.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (29:01)

In the book, I tell the story about how I first introduced sexism to my daughter, right? And in the book, I call it a sexism detector. We want it to be sort of like a smoke detector that it only goes off when it's actually needed. But because it can be hard, it can be really hard to tell if something's sexist, right? Because often it's so invisible or it's very subtle. In the past, it used to be much more, maybe it was more obvious. And it's more subtle today because we have movements like Me Too and because we have books like Sexism and Sensibility. So a lot of it is sort of going underground, but just because it's more subtle does not make it less damaging. So I was much more hesitant with my daughter to talk about sexism than with my son because I didn't want to make her feel inferior. I didn't want her to feel like a target, right? So basically what happened is we were watching MasterChef Jr. as a family and the first season she was like, the girl's gonna win. I think the girl's gonna win. I really want the girl to win. And you know, the girl didn't win. And then this went on for several seasons and like we were watching reruns so like we could sort of plow through it. And each season I could see like her hope diminish. And eventually I was like, what am I doing?

There's so many obvious signs of sexism, obvious to me, but not to little her. So I started to say, you know what? There's something going on here and the girl's not winning in part, I think, because all the judges are men. And they're probably not doing it on purpose, but they're identifying with the boys. And so I picked out things like, do you see how they say to the boy, my God, this is an amazing dish, I can't wait to visit your restaurant when you get older. And to the girls, they would say, wow, this is an amazing dish. Is this a fluke or could you do it again? Right. And then you wonder why every woman that walks in my office has imposter syndrome. So basically over time, we're teaching them, we're pointing out an everyday life because the world gives us endless teachable moments. Right.

We're saying, wow, did you notice that the waiter did not make eye contact with me until he realized that I was paying and going to be giving the test.

You're saying they often think that the man is gonna pay and so they're not nice to the woman or they're making these assumptions. And that's something that you're gonna experience in your life from time to time and I just want you to be aware of it. Right? And we can talk about it when it happens. Because if you bring it into the home and you say that you know that gender bias and sexism exists and it's not okay, but it's not about them, it's about the culture. here we are, we're trying to fix the culture and it is getting better over time. You always wanna balance the darkness with hope.

Dr. Cam (32:18)

Right. Here's the challenge though, too, that I see is when you are a girl or a woman and you point out things like that, that feel biased rather than people, men often, even women, self-correcting, they turn it around as you're being too sensitive or I've been left out of meetings because it's like, well, we can't be ourselves if there's a woman there, because now we can't be ourselves, which means what? Right? Now we have to be careful that we're not sexist. So that is a challenge too, because you might get left out of the circle or you might get kind of labeled if you make a big deal out of being treated unequally.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (32:51)

Part of it is every child is different and some kids are going to feel more comfortable standing up for themselves and some aren't. Right. So the big thing that I want to get across to all girls is it's not them. Right. They do not need fixing. The culture needs fixing. Right. But that they are. So we're trying to intervene before they really internalize all of this stuff. And that hopefully over time, as it becomes more acceptable in the culture, and it already is, they will feel comfortable standing up. And if they can, if they can be, if they can employ bystander intervention, which just means speaking up when it happens to somebody else, then when it happens to them, they are more likely not to think this was my fault. This was something I asked for. This was something I did wrong.

I shouldn't have said that to him. I shouldn't have looked at him like this. I shouldn't have gone home with him, right? So the more we can talk about it, the more they'll feel like they can stand up for it. But we also want them to, we wanna give them permission to walk away when they feel like they can't stand up for themselves, when they feel like it's dangerous.

Right? We just want them to know, like that's what I started to say before. If we bring it into the home, they'll even if they can't say anything there or they don't feel comfortable saying anything there, they can always come home and talk to us because we've already let them know. We know this exists. You did not ask for this. This is not your responsibility to fix, but I want to hear about it.

Dr. Cam (35:02)

It's basically protecting them from being gaslit. Right? Do you think that's part of it? And there I just giggled. It's part of, so it's protecting them from, and what you're saying is it's, so they're not internalizing it. They're not as impacted when people say something by taking it personally. They can separate and say, that person is having issues with me being a woman.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (35:07)

Essentially. Essentially.

Dr. Cam (35:32)

It has nothing to do with me being a woman. It has nothing to do with me personally.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (35:34)

Right, like in the book, right, and you're right, like a lot of, it happens so often that we really can't react to every little thing, right? So we're giving them the tools to just sort of swiftly decode what's happening in the moment. But you know, I interviewed a group of eighth graders for the book and they were like, it's fine. I mean, I don't like when he snaps my bra strap, but it's fine.

Dr. Cam (35:44)

No, it's too right. That's crazy.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (36:03)

And the thing is, what we're trying to have girls understand is like, yes, there are times you have to brush it off and I want you to know it's not fine because over time, research shows that this affects your self-esteem and your sense of potential. It places so much focus on your body that you can't focus on other things.

Dr. Cam (36:26)

Yeah, that's really important to keep that message going. I think too, and everything you've been saying, I haven't gotten the gist of that, but making sure this isn't about blame either. This isn't about men are bad, men are evil, men are, this is not about that at all. I think it's just pointing out that this is the way that we've all been raised to believe and that it's going to take time to change that belief that it's not the intent isn't sometimes it is, but the intent isn't to be sexist more than it is just completely unaware. Do you feel like that's fair to say?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (37:10)

You mean among boys and men? Yeah, I think right. I think actually this sort of patriarchal culture that our kids are growing up in, it hurts boys as much as it hurts girls. And what I've come to understand being in private practice for so long and talk and, know, I have many boys and men that are patients too, that we need to change the culture, not just because it will help our daughters. but because it will help our sons too, right? So what we're doing is we're cutting off half of their humanity, right? If you can't express your, if you're a woman or a girl, you know, an adolescent and you can't express your autonomy and your competitiveness and your authority, that's cutting off an important part of who you are.

And if you're a boy and you can't express your emotionality and your wish for connection and cooperation, that's cutting off half your humanity. And so I want this as much for boys as I do for girls.

Dr. Cam (38:19)

Let's go there real quick because I think we mentioned at the very beginning, there's, it's put on the women to make change, right? And we end up adapting ourselves to fit into a man's world. How do we raise sons that are less or aren't sexist?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (38:45)

That's a really good question and I do have a whole section in the book on that. You know, I think for one, especially when you're a teenage boy, girls have a lot of power over you. And so often the Me Too movement doesn't make sense to them. They feel like they're being blamed. And so the really important thing that we wanna do is explain sexism to them help them understand it as much as we're helping our girls understand it because they don't understand the history. They don't understand the focus on girls' appearance. They don't understand. They really don't get how vigilant a girl has to be every moment of her life out in the world. And I think the more they come to understand that, the more empathy they'll have for her and for girls in general. And another thing I would say is For their whole growing up experience, don't separate boys and girls. As much as possible, keep these cross-gender friendships going.

Dr. Cam (39:49)

Yeah, you're right. There's so much separation. And then we don't understand one another and we don't learn from one another. And it does create this very just polarizing women, men. And I've been seeing this too, is that the container of what it is to be a man and a woman, I feel are so restraining that no one actually fits into that container. which then creates a whole nother level of insecurity because I don't fit that perfect container that is completely unrealistic, which means where do I fit?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (40:23)

Yes. And the container for women is their bodies, right? Like their bodies have to be shrunk and fit this certain standard. And for boys, it's really their masculinity, right? There's this constant nagging feeling that they're not boy enough. Even the most boy boys feel that way. And it's really sad. And with my son, in terms of like your question of what do you do, I've taken the long view. Like he might not be able now to stand up to his friends and be like, that's so sexist, right? But if I'm pointing it out, if I overhear things that they're saying, I'm, you know, there's a story in the book, right? About a friend of mine who called me and she had overheard her friend, she had overheard her son who was a new freshmen, just making friends, had them over to the house and they were saying words like ho and thought, right? That whatever, that ho over there and she didn't say anything because she didn't want to be the one who sort of single-handedly shamed them and got in the way of him making friends. And so she called me and she was like, my God, what am I going to do? Like, I feel like I missed the moment. And I was like, you did not miss the moment at all. This is just perfect food for fodder. And so she went and she talked to him about what she had overheard and he was like, mom, it's just a joke. And you know, even the girls laugh at it.

And she was like, yeah, I'm sure they do because they've been conditioned to, but there's no reason that we should laugh at girls' sexuality and elevate boys' sexuality. And I was like, boom, right? And so that was just a lesson in passing. She didn't harp on it. It was just something she could say. And over time, hopefully this message sinks into that boy and he starts to be able to think that way as well.

Dr. Cam (42:08)

I love that. the takeaway I'm getting is it's really in modeling how we are as mothers and just showing our power, talking to our girls and boys equally and focusing on both sides of who they are. And I want to ask you, what is your big takeaway that you want parents to walk away with?

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (42:52)

that's a great question. I want parents to know that sexism and gender bias affect girls much more than you think. But if you understand how to approach it, you can reduce the negative effects of it.

Dr. Cam (43:16)

Great. That is wonderful. So Dr. Jo, tell us more about your book and how people can find you.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (43:23)

Yes, so the book is called Sexism and Sensibility, Raising Empowered Resilient Girls in the Modern World. You can find it wherever books are sold. It's also an audiobook that I narrate and it is you can find me at JoanneFengelstein.com or I have a newsletter that's JoanneFengelstein.substack.com called The Feminist Parent and I'm on Instagram at joannfingelstein.phd and on TikTok at the same handle.

Dr. Cam (44:00)

All of them. That's great. And I love that you played off of a Jane Austen book because Jane Austen writes some really powerful women. So that's a great play. Love it. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you.

Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (44:08)

She sure does.Thank you, Dr. Cam, it's been fun.

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast delivers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help parents strengthen their relationship with their teens. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior, communication, or self-esteem issues, this podcast offers actionable solutions to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding.

#empoweringgirls #genderbias #raisingstronggirls #parentingtips

Dr. Cam sits down with Leslie Cohen-Rubery, a clinical social worker, to tackle one of the toughest challenges parents face—handling teens with intense emotions. If you’ve ever felt like your child’s outbursts are out of control or completely illogical, this episode is for you. Leslie shares insights on emotional regulation, validation, and how to de-escalate heated moments. They also discuss why parents shouldn't try to "fix" their teen’s feelings and how reflection and repair after conflicts can strengthen your relationship.

• Why your teen’s emotions aren’t as irrational as they seem
• The biological and social factors behind emotional outbursts
• How validation can calm a crisis and improve communication
• The power of witnessing emotions without rushing to fix them
• How to repair after a conflict and strengthen your connection

1. Your child's intense emotions aren’t a reflection of your parenting. Feeling guilt or shame doesn’t help—understanding does.
2. Validation is a game-changer. Acknowledging your teen’s emotions without judgment helps them feel heard.
3. Your teen's brain is still developing. Their reactions may feel extreme, but there’s often a biological and social reason behind them.
4. Don’t rush to fix their emotions. Sometimes, just sitting with them in their discomfort is the best support.
5. Conflict can lead to growth. Post-conflict discussions should focus on solutions, not blame, to strengthen your relationship.

Love this episode? Share it with other parents, leave a review, and help more families navigate the teen years with confidence. Your support means the world! 🙏💫

🔔 Hit Follow so you never miss a solution-packed episode!

00:00 Understanding the 'Monster' in Our Teens
04:06 The Roots of Intense Emotions
09:45 Navigating Emotional Turbulence
14:00 Effective Strategies for De-escalation
20:01 Post-Conflict Reflection and Repair
30:09 Building a Strong Parent-Child Connection

• Facebook: @lesliecohenrubury
• Instagram: @lesliecohenrubury
• YouTube: @lesliecohenrubury
• TikTok: @lesliecohenrubury

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

Dr. Cam (00:01.902)

Hey parents, if your teen is prone to outbursts or dramatic reactions, this episode is for you. Joining us today is the insightful Leslie Cohen-Ruberry, a licensed clinical social worker with 39 years of experience supporting families. Leslie is the creator of the podcast, Is My Child a Monster? Where she helps parents navigate the often rocky waters of parenting.

In this episode, Leslie is going to share some effective strategies for addressing our teens' monstrous emotions. Welcome, Leslie.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (00:35.759)

Well, hello, thank you Dr. Cam for having me today.

Dr. Cam (00:39.264)

Absolutely, let's start with, I always like to start with the backstory. How did you come up with the title and the idea of, is my child a monster?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (00:48.987)

Well, it's very real. And that's actually a piece of advice I might talk about later when we talk about how to be with our kids. It's about being real. So parents would come to me and in that very first session, they'd sit down and they'd say, is my child a monster? Like they really were upset and it upset them to ask that question. They felt guilty, they felt shame. Sometimes it was even more extreme. Is my child sociopathic? And I'm like, my heart broke. And I said, no.

And that is what I say every time I have not met a monster, every time a parent comes into me and says, is my child a monster? So it was very real. I heard it over and over again. And then when I thought about doing a podcast, said, I can't do anything but that title because you know, it's so powerful. And what it is, it's no, your child is not a monster, but they may be misunderstood. And that's the whole premise behind the podcast. That's where it came from.

And that's what therapy is about. some parents don't feel like their child's a monster, but many, many parents worry about their child and they don't understand their child. So it includes really all parents, not just the ones who think their child's a monster.

Dr. Cam (02:01.482)

I love that and I think that is this ongoing fear that parents have saying, my gosh, did I mess my kid up? Is there something wrong with my kid? Is this normal? What are some of the behaviors you see the parents group into the term monster?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (02:08.15)

Well, the biggest one is what you sort of announced in the introduction, which is these big, intense emotions. Like a child having, one of my episodes is where the child is having a meltdown because the parent threw away or lost their acorn. And so from a parent's mind is you've got to be kidding me. You're having a meltdown over an acorn where there's literally thousands outside, we can go get another. So parents would, it's that's very typical. So intense emotions, like you wanted to go see that movie, why can't, why are you having a meltdown before we go in? These are all examples from, you know, podcast is like, parents get confused over, it feels like illogical, intense reactions and intense behaviors. So throwing things.

You know, withdrawing, won't talk, won't, you know, anything like that. When we get to teenagers, the behaviors get a little more scary and so do the emotions. So we're talking about teens who may be self-harming, may be extreme in their language to the parent. These power struggles get very intense. So it's usually intense behaviors or intense emotion.

Dr. Cam (03:39.212)

First of all, parents, if your kids are acting this way and you have this fear, which I know a lot of you do, take a deep breath. We're going to talk about it and there is an explanation behind it. And when there's an explanation, there are solutions. So let's start first with some explanation. Where are these big overreactions over something seemingly ridiculously small? Where are they coming from?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (04:06.883)

Well, that's a long answer, but the short answer is your child is in emotion mind. And much of the skills that I'm going to talk about today come from dialectic behavior therapy. I am an intensively trained dialectic behavior therapist. and these skills are incredible for regulating emotions and disray and, also behavior. So dial the first thing is we want to recognize when our child is in emotion mind, because in that moment.

When the child is feeling that they are an emotion mind, which is an illogical, intense, often hot, heavy, you know, kind of experience. For the question that's a little bit larger context of where is this coming from, we have both a biological makeup and an environmental or social component, which is, you know, who your child is when they're born. And that part, we don't change. That part, we need to accept that this is who they are. We're not fixing their biological makeup. So some children are born highly, highly sensitive. They feel things intensely, whether they notice someone crying three blocks away or, you know, at the other end of the room or in the classroom or something like that. They take on, they feel other people's emotions. get, they may get overwhelmed by stimulation, by just being in a crowded place, why are they hesitating to go to a birthday party that they really wanna go to or go visit their friend. And so there's the biological piece that parents often wanna change, but we really need to remember acceptance is one of the more important strategies to actually teach and use. And then there's of course the social environment.

If your child, if you have one of these sensitive children and you're trying to get out of the house with your teenager and you're screaming at them, come on, I gave you 15 minutes, let's go, let's go. And you just like, there's nothing in your mind that says, why is this kid not getting out of the house? It's time to go to school. They're always late. When you get that kind of frustration and then you convey that because we're all human and it is frustrating. So when the parent is feeling that kind of frustration,

they may be conveying to the child unintentionally, you are bad, what is wrong with you? How come you can't do this? Or even if there's not that there may be a few siblings in the house and that child is the only one that's struggling. you know, everybody else is out the door catching the bus, whatever, they're there, they're doing it, they're struggling. And so they may think that they are a monster. They may think that they are bad. And that's the environment which is what does the fit look like between the environment and who this person is?

Dr. Cam (07:01.342)

And Leslie, I think it's really important to point out that when we start reacting to our kids this way and they start responding this way, we start actually defining who they are and how they see themselves. And so when we act like they're a monster, we start feeding into them becoming and believing they're a monster, which just makes it worse. So I, right. So I think.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (07:27.865)

And it's behaviorism. It's reinforcing exactly what they see.

Dr. Cam (07:31.028)

It is exactly what we're trying to stop. And I think a lot of parents do because they're trying to say, I'm pointing out what's wrong with you, so you'll fix it. And the problem is that's not how it works. Because if they could fix it, they would have.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (07:48.943)

Right? No one wants to be feeling this way. No one wants to show up like that. I mean, no, I was the one in my family having those tantrums. there's, you know, it's not you. And yeah, it's not like we wanted to be that way. And that's what parents forget that. They forget. Yeah. When I gave the title, didn't realize, I'm just, I'm healing those childhood wounds because I was that monster child, even though I didn't call myself a monster. I just said I was bad.

Dr. Cam (07:58.072)

Ditto.That was a pain in the butt. 

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (08:17.549)

And bad is a feeling of shame and shame is very, very toxic. It's very often. It is an unjustified feeling that I labeled myself because the world didn't get me. I had my learning disabilities. had these intense emotions. was highly intense behaviors and highly sensitive and you know, no fault, but nobody really got me. And that's what the podcast is about. And that's what we're doing here today is to help parents understand who your child is.

Dr. Cam (08:50.114)

Yeah. So the first step is realizing they're not doing this on purpose. They're not doing it to make your life miserable. And us getting upset does not hurry them. It slows them down more. So a lot of times we get this anxiety and we just get louder and more and more and we got to go, we got to go. And when we do this, we're actually slowing the process down. So

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (09:16.559)

Right. Well, I think there's a lot of pressure on parents and I write the pressure to not have this moment, to teach your child. Like if I don't do this now, what will my child be like? And a lot of our fear is driven by future oriented pressure. Like I have to teach my child. Well, I fire many parents from that job. I actually say, can I fire you because I have another job for you. And that other job is to see your child for who they are and give them that information. Well, I noticed getting out of the house is really hard for you. So it's observing and describing. Those are two mindfulness skills that we teach in DBT. Those observe and describe what you see. Give your child that information. That is the most important job as a parent is to give your child the information about who they are. and how they show up in the world. Wow, I noticed, yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Cam (10:17.312)

And, no, I just wanted to add to that. When you said that, there was no adjectives put into it or subjective thoughts to it. Like you're lazy and you're this or you're, it is just the facts of you are not getting out on time. No, nothing else.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (10:37.039)

Yeah. And here's the thing. I'm a very intense person myself. So when my child was having their big reactions or whatever, I needed to calm myself down because I was the one. So when we notice a name, I am now working very hard to actually stay in my wise mind so that I don't get absorbed into their wise mind, into their emotion mind at the moment. So when I say, well, I noticed you're having a big reaction.

I noticed that you're yelling at me. I noticed that you actually said you hate school. It's real, it's in the moment, and it often helps both the child and the parent sort of like wake up and say, yeah, that's what's happening right now. And then you can figure out what the next step is. So observing and describe is a very important skill to actually help us deal with those big emotions.

Dr. Cam (11:35.246)

I love that because it not only gives them the language, it also gives you the language and resets your expectation of what's going on and changes. Because when we have a story which we create about what's going on and we respond out of that story, which 9 times out of 10, probably 9.9 times out of 10 is wrong, we're responding in a very ineffective way.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (11:57.243)

And what you just said I want to reinforce, which is parent and children need to learn these skills, especially teens. And I, every year I run what's called a multifamily DBT group. And a multifamily group means you have a parent or two parents or caregivers and the team in the group. And most teens come and say, I don't want my parent in the group. I said, watch out, they're going to get more out of it than you are. And the parents who join the group actually get their eyes open up there, you know, and for the team, they're thrilled to see their parent learning something. They are actually and I know they're taking stuff away too. you know, everybody's taking these skills away when we're in the group together, but the teens love to see their parents learning it. So the idea that you are learning the same thing and the same language of these three states of mind, I'm in emotion mind, you're in emotion mind, I need to take a moment to get myself into wise mind. You know, that's the difference between emotions in the back of your brain and the prefrontal cortex where you can problem solve. You can't problem solve when you're in a state of emotion and that's a mistake parents often try to do is when their child is screaming, let's solve this problem. That is not the moment to solve, no.

Dr. Cam (13:14.168)

going to happen. Yeah, that's when we just take the phone out of anger and then it's not accomplishing or teaching or doing anything at that point. We're just making it mad. So I think let's let's talk. So now parents are probably on the edge of the seat going, OK, now tell us then what do we do if we can't yell and we've got to stay? We're going to try to stay calm. We need to know what to do. And I think it's a real challenge with teenagers because they are not open to our suggestions at this point. So please tell us, what do we do when we're in that moment and what are some things first and then what are some things we can do to prevent us from getting in that moment, which is way easier than trying to get out of the moment.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (14:00.796)

Absolutely. There is an ABC or an ARC kind of, we can do things beforehand, we can do things during, and we can do things after. in the moment, we'll go back later to what we can do beforehand, but in the moment, one of the most, you know, so we started off by saying, become aware that you or your child is in emotion mind. And then I sort of asked myself a question, whose problem is this?

If the child came to me upset, it's their problem. Why am I going to get in there and make it my problem? So I have a metaphor that's a little bit graphic. And if anyone is very queasy, please turn down your volume. But the idea that if your child was throwing up because they had a stomach bug, you would want to go and help them, but you would not say you can throw up on me.

That would be ridiculous because once they throw up on you, now you no longer can be help. You have to go shower yourself. You have to change your clothes. You got to clean up. It's like, and you're disgusted. So you're not helpful anymore. But if you hand them a bucket, you can, because you realize they're sick. I need to help them. But you keep yourself that one step removed and you hand them a bucket. Now you can be helpful. So the metaphor says, ask yourself, whose problem is this If it's their problem, I have to be able to witness, and this is the hard part, I have to be able to witness my child being uncomfortable. And parents, I see a lot of parents having difficulty with that. They are really, really uncomfortable. They don't want their child to be uncomfortable from a very young age. So they're trying to smooth the road. Well, when you get to a teenager and you can't smooth the road anymore, then you get it. you know, like hit it like a slap in the face. It's awful because you can't fix it in the moment. And they are going to be, you know, they're going to feel these intense emotions of feeling left out or not good enough with their peers or at home or whatever it is. And so parents have to witness the pain that their child is in. And so you need your own system of support and grounding yourself and just remembering that it is their problem.

And the way we fix it or the way we help them is to actually respect them to say they can handle their problem. Even if you think they can't, still say that to yourself. I have faith that my child can handle their problem. And I know everybody wants it in the immediate. Right now I want my child to handle their problem. I want it to go away, but… It's a much more open your hands and be willing to accept the discomfort of the moment that's gonna be there until it passes and it will pass.

Dr. Cam (16:55.374)

So what do we do in the meantime? Because doing nothing is probably the hardest thing for parents to do. We want to do, we want to fix. Do we just stand there and let them act out? What if they're acting out violently or yelling or what do we do?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (17:15.909)

So the one way to deescalate, one of the most effective ways to deescalate or to actually just with just a very effective skill is using validation. Validation acknowledges what is going on, what is happening, what your child is feeling, thinking, how their behavior, validation does not mean agreement.

So if I validate my child who is yelling at me, it doesn't mean I okay it. It doesn't mean I'm saying it's okay. I can validate you are so angry that you think the only thing you could do right now is to scream at me.

So when we validate what is going on for our child, it can begin to deescalate it because I'm not adding fuel to the fire. And validation is simply stating what you see, sort of a little bit of that observe and describe, but it's that what I said about being real. It's letting your child know. So some parents will say to a teenager, I see that you're, you know, see that you're really, it sounds like you're really angry.

Okay. And they get even angrier. Right. Sometimes it works and it brings them down goes, yes, I'm so angry. I, know, I'm really, really angry. And other times they just get angrier. So if validation works, it's going to deescalate the situation. If validation doesn't work, because by the way, validation is in the eye of the beholder. So the person who's receiving it. Yeah. The person receiving the validation has to feel is validating.

Dr. Cam (18:50.381)

That's a good point.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (18:56.613)

So if they get louder and they get more upset, I would say very quickly, wow, what I just said felt more invalidating, even if I'm trying to validate you. So then I would, then that's when I go, they just want, know, hey, this situation sucks. This situation is really miserable. They don't want me to tell them how they're feeling. They want me to be on their side and just say, and I don't have, again, I don't have to agree with them. This really stinks.

We are so quick to try to fix everything. Slow down and just see where your child is. Just slow down and be in the pain with them. And we don't wanna do that because we think we're gonna make it worse. I think I use a clip for, didn't even see the movie, but I use a clip from Inside Out one, part one, where, or the first one, where there's a very good example of actually being there and naming the sadness or naming the pain or naming the anger actually reduces it, it doesn't increase it.

Dr. Cam (20:01.41)

Yeah, I think what's hard is when we see kids especially swearing at us and saying things like that. think it triggers us to say, a second, I as a parent should not be talked to this way. This is not okay. I think we're not saying that that is okay. We're saying that's not the moment that you're going to make any change. If you try to teach and correct and fix that language and say that's not okay and get upset with how they're exhibiting their anger in that moment, you're just gonna get more of it. So this is something we're in the moment. We're not going to teach, we're not going to folks fix, we're going to validate and we're gonna deescalate. That is our only job, right?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (20:49.893)

Right. Right. And that is a a winning plan. That is parents think I'm not letting them get the best of me. I'm not going to let them do that. Well, then you actually enter the power struggle. They baited you and you got baited. And so I say to parents, kids are really good at baiting us. They know how to supposedly push our buttons by the way we don't have buttons, but kids know what to say.

Not because the manipulative, by the way, I do not look at teenagers and manipulative. I look at kids as doing the best they can with the skills they have. And in that moment, they need you to understand that. And if they're upset and then they get you upset, well, they got you to understand they're upset. So can you do that by again, stepping away and giving them a little space because giving them a little space and saying, I'm here.

I see that you are in emotion mind. see that you're yelling at me and you're trying to communicate to me, you know, go below the surface. When they're yelling at you, don't stay up on the surface and get caught in the, that's where you get baited. Go below the surface and say, wow, if you're yelling at me this way, you must be in a lot of pain. You must be feeling so horrible that you can yell at me or you want me to know something. Hey, can you take a breath and let me know what you're trying to tell me?

I, another thing that I say, I bait them. I really want to hear what you have to say. What you're doing right now doesn't work for me. I don't speak yelling language. I don't, I can't understand this. So I'm here. I want to hear what you have to say. It's very important. Can you find a different way to say it? I'll give you space. I'll give you time.

Dr. Cam (22:37.922)

Yeah. I think what's important, Leslie, is if we go and try this today and you've been in a mask and your go-to has been yelling and getting caught up into it, it's not gonna work beautifully for the first, second, third time because your kids are still expecting you to get upset. This is something that you have to do over time. So a lot of parents will go, well, I tried that once. It didn't work. I'm gonna go back to the yelling which has not worked hundreds of times. So I really want to encourage parents when you hear skills like this, they're not something that magically changes. It's something you have to be consistent at and you have to adapt and learn. But when we're always yelling and showing our kids we can't regulate our emotions, we're not going to be able to teach them to regulate theirs.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (23:32.591)

Right, right. And one day your child's gonna turn to you if you use the language of emotion mind and don't overuse it, they will not like that. But when you use it, they will turn one day to you and say, mom, you're in emotion mind. And you will not like hearing that, but they're right. Right, they know it.

Dr. Cam (23:51.938)

Yeah. yeah, my teen has told me, we don't use emotion mind, but my teen has definitely pointed that out too. And it's important because we both need, when you get in that emotional state, you kind of lose your smart mind, right? A little bit. So it's good to kind of have that touchstone. Okay. So we're calming and we're deescalating by really not adding is what our goal is.

What do we do afterwards when our kids have been completely rude and nasty and said stuff that we are not okay with? How do we address that now without starting it up again?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (24:32.471)

Okay, so at that point afterwards, sometimes, you know, there's three approaches, you let it go. There are some families where they have to process everything, you know, and it's and the children are exhausted because and that's why they don't want to talk to you because everything needs to be processed. So a small percentage of it is let it go. It's over. Okay. Well, I'm not gonna let my child get away with it. You think they let you know my child who was had such difficulty and had big emotions, she still feels shame at 34 years old for the way she treated her family, you know, and been apologizing to that. And they don't forget. So if you let it go, it's only because every once in a while it's okay to let some things go. On the other hand, there is a good amount of time where I want to sit down and say, hey, can we look at what happened? Now, most of the time, when people wanna look at what happens, it's like for further punishment, as opposed to, or blame. You said this and I, know, and so instead if we adopt a perspective, and this is what we do in DBT again, is we say, hey, let's look what happened so we can figure out what we can do different next time. And it's called looking for synthesis and solutions for changing behavior.

So I would, and this is what I would do way in advance is, hey, I'm gonna do something new. Instead of when things don't feel good or you behave in a way or I behave in a way that we're not happy with, I would like to come back, take a short little five minute, that time makes them feel like you're not gonna lecture them for two hours. I'd like to go over for five minutes just what happened, what can we do different? Not what happened so we can blame not what what happened so we can judge but what what happened so we can look at doing something different. Okay.

Dr. Cam (26:36.302)

Yeah, that's so important because I think often we approach it as what can you do differently next time? What should you do differently next time when the dynamic required both of us?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (26:50.745)

Right. So you might now I've started with my started young with my grandchildren. I did with my kids, but I didn't know all this as much with my kids who are 37, 34, 34. So I'm doing it with my grandchildren where, you know, big, intense emotions, highly sensitive kids, and they're listening. But if you already have a team who you haven't had the opportunity to do some of this with, It's probably best to start with yourself. So if you sit down and say, I'd like to go over what I could do different, that did not feel good to me. Even if your child was the one with big emotions, they feel safer coming to you and listening, hey, I just want to share with you what I'd like to do different. You might have a suggestion for me. I might have a suggestion and let you know what I'm going to try different. Next time that happens, I'm going to say, I'm getting an emotion mind, I'll be back. I'm gonna go calm myself down and I'll be back and I'm gonna come back to deal with you. Then they learn that you're dealing with your emotion, which is setting a fantastic example for them. So that would be something you could do initially is to share what you would do different. And absolutely, if they're open to it, I would say, do you wanna go over anything that you might do different?

And then finally is sometimes we need our children or ourselves to make a repair because damage was done. You said hurtful things. I said hurtful things and there are consequences. We're not ignoring those consequences. You have to, you know, I can understand why you might have said hurtful things. You were really in pain and now there are consequences. We still need a repair. So what does that repair look like? And I talked to my child with respect about hey, how do you want to how do you want to do a repair? We can sit here and do a little work about what we'd want to do next time. That's a repair. We could say that you want to take on one of my chores. I water my plants every Saturday morning. Maybe you want to take on one of my chores and water my plants for me. That's a repair. So we can we can offer something. And I think when we come generously to our children and invite them into the conversation and treat them with respect, then we more likely will get cooperation. I know not all kids will give that cooperation because they're angry and they're very hurt and they're very angry and they've got that wallet. They don't feel like they can willingly participate. And sometimes with those kids, it does take time. You need to create a connection so that they will feel like they're more willing to do something. We have to turn from conflict to collaboration. And so sometimes this goes into the before. Sometimes we need to do things when things are fine and work on building the sense of collaboration, building a sense of connection, because then the repair can go so much smoother. And if you have such trouble with the during and after, then it may be that you need to look at before I'm disconnected from my child.

And that's what most of these ruptures are about. They're like letting you know that there's no connection. So a lot of it is about prevention, is setting it up. So we reduce the number of, the amount of conflict.

Dr. Cam (30:25.068)

I think that's the most important piece that if you're constantly in conflict with your teen, it is not an issue with your teen. It is an issue with your relationship with your teen. So when we get upset and punish our teen for their part of a broken relationship, what is that telling them to? And we're not taking ownership or accountability for our part of it. And I see this a lot in my practice and teens are like, if my parents can't do anything or change anything and they want me to do all the change. No way. I'm not going to do that. That's crazy. Like they're the ones that need to change because they're mean to me and they say nasty things to me and they don't get me and they don't listen to me and I just have to fight for everything. And they're like, they're, they don't feel heard. And so when we take the time and I think the hardest is when our kids are being ugly to us, this makes it even harder for us to take a step back and try to connect with them because we are so resentful and angry at them.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (31:34.96)

It's, know, again, I really want to say to parents as you hear this, we're not blaming you because I look, look at, you know, being a parent is extremely challenging. It is going to bring up our own areas that of wounds and weaknesses that we need to work on. Just a very simple example is one of my daughters was extremely literal. Well, my brain doesn't work that way. When I say I'll be home in five minutes, you better give me plus or minus 10 minutes. But she said, you know, if I came home at six minutes, she said, mom, you said you were going to be home in five minutes ago, you know, in five minutes. And so I'm like, that would drive me nuts. And I'm like, okay, that's about the fit. So we do want to remember that there's no judgment. I'm not right. And she's wrong or she's not wrong. And I'm right. You know, it's, it's not about right and wrong. It's about the fit and you know, my older son, I was a go, go, go. I love being out. I love being on the go. I love doing things. He was a homebody. He didn't want to go all the time. I missed that. did, you know, in truth, the child that's intense and letting you know that they're upset, that's the one that's going to be okay. They know how to express themselves. It's the quiet one that he went along and he was a people pleaser. He took care of me by saying, I'll go, I'll go.

But I missed the fit and I missed the fact that he wasn't, he was a teenager who I was pushing and he was an easy going kid and, but, and he was a people pleaser. So he didn't give me a hard time, but my heart breaks because I miss understanding that piece of him. you said children need to be heard and understood. That's the point of my podcast. We need to hear and understand them. And all the examples that I give in the podcast are all about that. That's what we're working on with children. We're working on the fit. And the other thing, when it's up to us to start changing, it was so hard for me to bite my tongue and not say what I wanted to say. So parents, I'm with you. I know how satisfying it is. I love intense emotions. I love yelling. I came from a family where yelling was okay. You know, it was all fun. I married someone who does not, there was no yelling in his family right, from his background and upbringing, there was no yelling. So we had to get used to that, that I had to bite my tongue. I had to hold the horses back and I had to really resist what my urges, my urges were like, I wanna yell at her. And I did a skill in DBT called opposite action. She doesn't deserve to be shamed and you should be better, you should do this.

She was highly sensitive and so I worked very, very hard letting her have her moment thinking she's right. I did. I let her think she was right a lot of the time growing up because I knew my truth. It wasn't a power struggle for me to believe myself. It's just I wanted to correct her. And that's where I would get in trouble. And that's where parents are getting in trouble. We think we have to fix our children now. Remember they have a lifetime for figuring out that they're not always right.

Dr. Cam (34:57.258)

No, and I think the more important thing at this point is not fixing them and making them perfect, which they will never be. It is fixing our relationship with them so that we have, so they have that foundation of trust and respect and safety with us. Even when they go off into the real world, they're still coming home and they still want to be around us. I think that is the most important and we are sacrificing that very important piece that we need to help them thrive by trying to fix them and argue with them and yelling at them and doing things that actually undermine everything that we need to be doing as a parent. And I want to go to when you were saying this is not about blame. I think it's not about blame. think what was important for us as parents to realize is that parenting is a very crucial skill set that has to be learned and it has to be practiced. It's not our fault that no one teaches us this, but if we know that that's out there, it is up to us to go learn how to do it and be the best parent, because we don't want to wing it and just leave our kids while being up to chance. That's scary to me.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (36:09.403)

Right, right, exactly, exactly. And you were just talking about something I wanted to go back to. What was that? When our child is, if we don't get them, and it's very hard for a parent who is struggling because their child is not making the changes they want them to make, I often say connect to your child in another way, like,

I, there was a period of time when my daughter was pretty depressed and wouldn't listen to the skills, by the way, growing up, whenever I gave her a skill, she would often respond to me that stupid, that doesn't work. Okay. Right. What I, and parents keep, they nag and they keep saying, you have to use the skill, you have to use the skill. What I recommend is imagine that you're planting a seed because seeds take time to germinate.

Dr. Cam (36:50.668)

Yes, that happens all the time with teenagers.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (37:06.267)

And it may take 10 years before you actually see that seed germinate and come up. But I promise you parents, and my daughter called me up at 22 years old from Thailand where she was working at the time and said, mom, you have to tell the parents and the kids those skills really work. So she was the one who was telling me that it was stupid, it was stupid, it was stupid. And I didn't really know it was gonna work because this is the first time I was a parent, right? And I would say the skill and leave it.

Your children hear everything you say. So don't keep going. Believe that what you say is getting in there and that it's short and sweet and you have more chances of being successful at that point. And as I said, connect to your child in other ways. So if you can't help them regulate their emotions, connect to them in whatever way you can at the moment. If it's that they like to be wrapped up in a blanket and sit in their room all day. Talk about the blanket. Is this your favorite? What's your favorite blanket? know, like don't and actually be real and share with them real life things. Like, you know, one, you can actually get kids to deescalate not, you know, because you and someone else in the family may be talking about something really important or something really interesting and they stop having, you know, they deescalate in order to hear what you're talking about. So be real and show them that there's life outside of this big emotion. And that not everything has to be focused on their emotions and their behavior, like broaden their perspective and see them in a greater context, because there's a lot happening. Right? They may get really angry because there's injustice in the world. Great. Talk about that. And let them teach you maybe you don't know about what you know. So. Your kids have these, have these sparks and it's our job also to see that because sometimes all we see is what they're not doing and all of that. But if you go back and you remember your three year old who used to take apart all their toys or take apart the vacuum or take apart the, you know, whatever, go back to that. Think about some of the skills and things that you saw when they were little and try to connect to those parts.

Dr. Cam (39:29.782)

Yeah, love that. So Leslie, what is one big action item you want parents to be able to walk away with from this episode?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (39:42.731)

I was going to say planting the seeds, but I already said that. so the idea that you offer your child a skill, an idea, a teachable moment, but then you let it go. So offer it, whatever you have to offer your child, put it out as if it's a buffet and let them choose and let them pick it up and decide when it's right for them to learn that skill, to use that skill, and then try teaching that skill to yourself and modeling it.

Dr. Cam (40:18.254)

I was gonna say it's even more impactful if they see you doing it rather than telling them to do it and then you don't do it yourself.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (40:23.789)

Absolutely. There is so much work that even with my adult children now, they are comfortable enough giving me feedback. And the reason why they're comfortable enough for it, because I had to learn not to be defensive. And parents who get feedback from their kids is, mom, you always tell everybody whatever I tell you. You know, you, I try to tell you something and then you go blab it to your sisters or you go tell everybody else. To hear that is painful. but to be able to say, what's the message, not how are they delivering it. They may not be skillful in delivering it. So my one takeaway is take the feedback and actually allow yourself to be open and willing because then through the rest of their life, they will continue to come and talk to you. And my kids continue to give me feedback. I welcome it. It still has that little sting to it, but it allows us to be so connected.

And I think that's what parents want. They want that relationship as their children grow. Remember, teenage years are gonna pass. So what's gonna continue is your relationship with them. so, yeah, try to do that. Try to be open and willing to hear the feedback so that you can model the changes.

Dr. Cam (41:45.078)

I think the number one thing kids tell me why they get angry at their parents is because their parents don't listen. So that's a, and that's the number one reason parents get mad at their teens, because they're not listening. No one's listening. Yeah, so we got to start. We got to start the action. So Leslie.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (41:57.141)

Exactly. Is that no one's listening. Exactly. And validation is the key to listening. It proves that you're listening. So that just takes us back to the beginning where we said validation is so important.

Dr. Cam (42:11.618)

That's exactly right. It always comes back to that. Always comes back to that. Leslie, thank you so much for joining us. How do people find you?

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (42:20.431)

So my name is Leslie Cohen-Rubery, R-U-B-U-R-Y, and that's my website that has lots of resources. You can find my socials through my name, Leslie Cohen-Ruberry. And then Is My Child a Monster is either on my website or anywhere where you find podcasts. by all means, I encourage people to listen to get many, many more skills in how to help you understand your child. Bye.

Dr. Cam (42:47.95)

I will put all the links in the show notes so you guys can find that. Leslie, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate your insight.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (42:50.351)

Beautiful.

Leslie Cohen-Rubury (42:55.727)

Thank you and thanks for what you're doing where these resources are wonderful for parents.

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast delivers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help parents strengthen their relationship with their teens. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior, communication, or emotional regulation, this podcast offers actionable solutions to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding.

#parentingteens #emotionalintelligence #teenmentalhealth #parentingtips

Tired of constant arguments with your teen? You’re not alone! In this episode, Dr. Cam sits down with conflict resolution expert Hesha Abrams to reveal practical techniques for defusing conflict and improving communication with combative teens. Learn how power struggles fuel arguments, why emotional regulation is key, and how a simple “do-over” can repair relationships. If you’re ready to stop the battles and start connecting, this episode is for you!

• The surprising role power dynamics play in teen conflicts
• Techniques to calm heated situations before they escalate
• Why validation is a game-changer in communication
• How to redirect destructive behavior before it spirals
• The power of modeling emotional regulation for your teen

1. Parenting is tough—grace and patience go a long way.
2. Conflict is often about power struggles—understanding this can help.
3. Teaching teens to manage big emotions is essential.
4. Modeling good behavior is more powerful than lecturing.
5. Perfection isn’t the goal—building a strong connection is.

Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating & review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes packed with practical tips for your family!
🔔 Hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode!

• Book: Holding the Calm: The Secret to Resolving Conflict and Defusing Tension by Hesha Abrams

• 00:00 Introduction to Conflict Resolution with Teens
• 03:35 Understanding Power Dynamics in Conflict
• 10:13 Navigating Teen Conflicts
• 20:54 The Importance of Modeling Behavior
• 32:52 Redirecting Destructive Behavior

• Website: www.holdingthecalm.com
• Facebook: @HeshaAbramsHoldingTheCalm
• Instagram: @holdingthecalmbook

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

THE FULL TRANSCRIPT

Welcome back parents, Dr. Cam here. And in today's episode, we are diving into the secret to defusing conflict with combative teens with a renowned conflict resolution expert, Haysha Abrams. Haysha is an international acclaimed attorney and mediator known for her success in resolving high profile cases with some of the world's biggest companies, including Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Pepsi. I've heard of a few of those. 

She's also the author of the popular new book, Holding the Calm, the Secret to Resolving Conflict and Diffusing Tension. Today, Hayshia is going to share some practical, easy -to -use techniques to diffuse tension and resolve conflict, not just for our teens, but with anyone. Welcome, Hayshia. Thank you so much for joining us. Can you just start with your backstory? How did you get start in conflict resolution?

Hesha Abrams (00:48)

My pleasure. Well, what I want to start with, especially for a podcast like yours, because I do business podcasts all the time. But what I tell people is I'm a lawyer, I'm a mediator. I've done multi -billion dollar disputes at the highest levels of industry. And the hardest job I've ever had, being a parent.

Dr. Cam (01:03)

Yeah, that is so good to hear. Yes, good to hear. Good and not good. What did we get ourselves into?

Hesha Abrams (01:19)

It is so, well, you live with a tyrannical roommate who doesn't pay rent, right? So, and part of the problem is we want them to like us. And that is really a very dangerous, dangerous thing. So it becomes a really hard needle to thread. And that's what I want to talk about because I've learned techniques. have, first of all, I have great relationships with all my kids and my in -law kids. So I think that gives me some kudos right there. The techniques I'm going to teach, I use on them. And I have nine grandchildren and I use these on them earlier. I'm smarter now than I was when I was young, because I didn't have a me putting out a book like Holding the Calm. I had a lot of the touchy feely books in my day that don't work. They talk about all this good stuff that should happen and they don't work. So, you know, I'm a lawyer. I do big, hard, difficult cases. What's the difference between somebody saying, I want a hundred million dollars and somebody saying, here's 10 ,000, go drop dead. Right? How do you get that settled versus a teenager going, I hate you. You don't give me anything I want. My friends do this. You make me study. You don't understand me. Or whatever other nonsense happens. It's all the same.

Dr. Cam (02:29)

It's all emotion, right? It's that big fight or flight emotion place. So, and I have a lot of clients and I talk to people that do because we're teenagers are so emotional and they push our buttons and we get emotional and then we just got this huge blow up and we get stuck in this loop of just really negative interactions and kids can get nasty, they can get mean, they can even get physically violent. And I have parents that are scared of their kids. They don't want to make the problem worse. So they're kind of walking on eggshells around them, not wanting to get them upset, but it keeps getting worse. So we would love to hear from you on how do we start approaching, if we're there. A lot of what I do is preventing us from getting there, but if we're there. And we're in that moment where we're just butting heads and it's starting to get ugly and we don't know what to do. Hey, what do we do?

Hesha Abrams (03:35)

Yeah, so let's talk about that. because I want everything I do is very practical. I'm not a kumbaya kind of gal. I'm not interested in what should work or is a cool idea or rise above it or all that kind of junk. What actually works when this thing's happened? And I'm sure on your show, you've already talked about amygdala, fight or flight response. So I don't need to go into that again. Okay. So everybody knows that. So I have a theory. I think that all conflict and tension of any kind with anybody at any age or any time has to do with power. Either you're taking it, you're giving it, you're trying to hold onto it, you're trying to take it from somebody else. When power happens, the amygdala gets triggered and that is just a very dangerous thing. But the easy magic bean answer is you give power, but you give it in small little unimportant things because that's what calms the amygdala down. So let's say, and what I want to do is divide up our conversation into dealing with younger children, dealing with teenagers, and dealing with adults. Because techniques work with all of them, but you have to feed it slightly differently on how you do it. Okay? So let's start with the young ones and then we'll work our way up. So with the young ones, you have more power. Up until they're about what? 10 or 11? You know, you can actually physically restrain them if you need to.

You have all kinds of privileges you can restrict. You have a lot more power up to about 10 or 11. Part of the problem is parents don't use that power. So if you don't use it when they're young, you have a hard time using it when they're older. It's much harder to break an old dog than to start with a new dog. So there's that old saying that if you don't make them cry when they're young, they'll make you cry when they're older is an absolute, absolute truism. So let's start with the young ones first.

You want to teach kids how to handle big feelings. They big feelings. They have big feelings. We're all hungry, tired, cranky, don't get our own way, didn't get enough sleep. Every one of us has that. So one of the parenting life skills you as a parent need to teach your children is how to handle that. Now, part of the problem is we as adults, I wasn't taught that by my parents. Okay, I had to learn this through lots of therapy and lots of work and doing this.

Dr. Cam (05:37)

Or we're taught, just stop it. Don't do it, not how to work through it. So I think a lot of parents are uncomfortable with that. So I love this. Let's go into how, when we don't know how to do it, how do we help our kids do it?

Hesha Abrams (06:04)

Exactly. So that's the first thing I do is first thing I say to all parents when I'm talking to them is grace. For God's sakes, this is the hardest job in the world to raise another human being. It is a thankless job. Give yourself grace. Okay. So the issue is not, not making mistakes. The issue is correcting mistakes. You are going to make a million mistakes. How do you correct it? So this is what I have found.

Dr. Cam (06:35)

Absolutely.

Hesha Abrams (06:39)

acknowledging your, what a lot of people think is as a parent, I have to be tough and strong and always write, no, that's a completely wrong approach because you're not teaching the kids how to be able to do that. So what you do is you do whatever it is you're going to do. And let's say it's going badly. Something's, you can tell something's going badly. Try it. Part of the thing about holding the calm is why I wrote this book is I've got simple little techniques to catch it earlier. The longer you let it go, It's like spaghetti sauce on the counter. It's wet, you wipe it up with a sponge. Overnight, you're scraping it off with a knife, right? So the earlier you catch stuff, the better it is. So if you can catch stuff early, you, who has the power in that interaction? You do. So stop. You're the older, you're the adult. Stop and say, I'm getting angry. I'm losing control.

We're going to take a moment. And that's why I call the book, Holding the Calm. You can say, take a deep breath. You could say, think of grandma. I you can do whatever you want. I find Holding the Calm works because it's such an interesting thing to say to your amygdala. It says to your amygdala, you got some power here. Use it. So you seem to be very upset. I named the emotion. Clearly I don't understand. And I would like to understand. Now notice what just happened in that interaction. I gave them power, but I gave myself more power. Isn't that amazing? Everyone can do this in every single situation. Now what happens with the person on the other end? Their amygdala is going and they can't stop it. They have to go, what just happened? What? What? And now, rather than screaming, yelling, throwing a tantrum, I have to articulate what I'm feeling 80 % of the time they can't do it. But you didn't say you can't do it. They figured it out themselves and then go, and in the end it'll come out with, I'm just mad. I get that. I get that. Help me understand why. Now that's technique one. Technique number two is you say, can we have a do -over? A do -over is the greatest technique in the world with kids because it gives them permission to screw up, lose their temper and apologize and ask for a do -over. The problem is we go, say sorry to your brother or, I'm sorry. Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. it's obnoxious. Who wants that? It's awful. It's nothing. It's so much better to say, that didn't come out the way I wanted it to. Can I have a do -over? Now notice I never said the words I apologize. Never. But that's the effect. Can I do it better now? Now I'm calmer. I've held the calm.

Dr. Cam (09:09)

Yeah, it means nothing.

Hesha Abrams (09:29)

You have your own techniques. I've got, the book is written about 20 techniques, easy, simple things to use right now. You can pick any of them. It depends on the situation. And I explain all that. That's why I the book a super easy, inexpensive, no paperback.

Dr. Cam (09:42)

Can you give us like two of your favorite?

Hesha Abrams (09:45)

sure. Well, let's let me, if you don't mind, let me take you through the trajectory of little kid, older teenager and adult. And then the techniques will weave their way through that. So the one I just gave you, that's the most basic and you people can listen and go, big deal. I know that. Okay. How often do you use it? Right. So this is how you can use it. So you start with that. Okay. Now the other question is you can give power.

Dr. Cam (09:51)

Perfect. Let's do it.

Hesha Abrams (10:13)

So I want to switch to, let's say it's a boss or a colleague or a neighbor or your spouse or a more, an older kid, an older teen. You can give power in the easiest ways. What would you like for lunch? What music would you like to listen to? Is the temperature okay? Should I put the air conditioning on a little bit more? What else, you know, where would you like to sit? See how all of those things are just dumb, unimportant little things.

They are critical because you're giving away power. So the other person's amygdala can go, okay, maybe I'm not at risk here. Maybe friend or foe, I thought it was foe, maybe it's friend. Now things can start calming down a little bit because you are holding the calm, right? So it's like giving away a power. So now technique number four, how do you do that?

Validation is the WD -40 of the universe. Okay? It's unbelievable. But you don't validate, you know, you can be a good validator or a shallow one. Hey, I really like your shirt. Okay. mean, all right. That was all right. That's like a C. I'd rather get an A minus or an A, you know? So how about something where you catch them doing it right? This works any age. You know, you handle that really well.

I'm proud of you. Wow, that was a really difficult decision, but you made it anyway. You know, you chose to do the right thing, not the easy thing, but for you. See how subtle all that is? So, and I want to make it even easier for parents. And I've got all of these set in stems in the book. And what people tell me is they memorize them or put them on your phone. Cause I've set in stems. You just can use them. But let's say you don't have any of that and you just need something super easy. I call it the verbs.

Dr. Cam (12:00)

Nice.

Hesha Abrams (12:09)

Verbs are great, right? You handled that well. You saw what was wrong. You kept yourself calm. You were looking for solutions. You know, I appreciate you. I admire you. I respect you. Forget the love and like. We all know that stuff. But if someone's really angry at you and you go, I love you, it's almost irritating, right?

Dr. Cam (12:37)

It is. Yeah. It gets them, it gets them more angry because they're like, if you loved me, then why are you saying this to me?

Hesha Abrams (12:44)

Correct. And it may have to be, you there are times with my kids that I had to say, look, I want to be your friend, but I'm your parent. That's more important. I'm your mom. That's a more important job. And sometimes it means you're not going to like me, but I love you enough to have you mad at me to help you do the right thing. Now they're still going to be mad at you, but I have kids now that are in their forties that remember me saying that and telling me, mom, I didn't get it, but I so get it now. And that's why I respect you and they're not doing it to their kids. it's building that respect is so critical.

Dr. Cam (13:20)

And Hesha, I just want to point out too, because I think like when you first started talking, I was like, boy, where's this going? And then it went exactly where I agree with. Like I was hoping it would go, but I think the key thing is when you're saying they might not like you, they might not like you, but nothing that you're saying is about you getting more power or you exerting your anger or you lashing out at them. It is about you staying calm and not buying into it and giving them the space to be angry and figuring it out. So it's not about saying they get to walk all over you. You're still saying stuff, but it's not doing it in a mean, angry, forceful way. Okay. Okay.

Hesha Abrams (14:04)

Yeah, beautifully said, beautifully said. And the thing I want to remind everybody, there's times as a parent you can't keep calm. You've been fired, you had a fight with your spouse, you got in a car accident, you're cranky, you have your period. mean, whatever it is, you give yourself grace. So that's why I always tell people you're gonna screw up. What do do when the light bulb goes off and you go.

I didn't handle that well. This is how you handle it. This is what you do. These four steps that I just gave, now I have got more advanced ones in the books about, let's say it's a real problem, like a big issue. Well, I have a four step thing called Vox and a system that you work through to actually figure out answers. But what it does is it's very empowering to somebody else. And when you have a teenager, I did little kids already, when you have a teenager, they think they're an adult, but they're

The human brain doesn't really develop in women until like 21 or 22 and men 25 or 28, right? So you can't tell them that. What good does that do? So let me tell you a little trick that I use even now and it works so great. They're adamant. I don't care if you've got an eight -year -old or a 28 -year -old and they're adamant about what they want or how they have to do it. And you just know it's wrong, right? So you can listen. So you listen. And then you validate how they're thinking about it and they're trying to think through all the things. And then I say, I have a question for you. May I ask you who says no to that? Now they say, yes, their ears open. If you want someone to hear something, ask them. If you may say it to them, 95 % of the time, they're going to say, yes, now you've opened their ears. If you just say it, just watch this right over them. Now I'm listening and I'll say, you know, you're 28.

Do you think you're smarter than you were when you were 18? Yeah. Do think you might be smarter at 35? Huh. That's it. I have an eight year old. Are you smarter than when you were six? Huh. Do think you might be smarter at nine or 10? Huh. Now, if they have a sibling, that's even a better way to do it because if they're nine and the sibling's six,

Dr. Cam (16:12)

I like it.

Hesha Abrams (16:27)

Well, of course I'm smarter than a six -year -old, right? That's so easy to do. It's a better, rather than saying you're young, you haven't learned everything, you need to know, who listens to that garbage? But you do it yourself on their own. Go to learn here. Maybe my mother or father isn't as stupid as I thought they were, you know. There's a funny line from Mark Twain that he says he thought when he was a teenager he thought his father was an idiot and by the time he was an adult he was amazed how much his father had grown.

Dr. Cam (17:00)

Yeah, exactly. How much you learned in that amount of time. And I think the point is we might have to wait that long for them to really get it, but I think trying to convince them doesn't work.

Hesha Abrams (17:15)

They don't really honestly, honestly get it until they start having kids of their own, but they get it in their own way. And then when they start having kids of their own, that's when they come back and go, my God, but I'll tell you a little secret everybody, it doesn't matter. Because by that point you've let go, you've forgiven, you've moved on. So by the time they get it, you're like, yeah, okay, welcome to the club. It doesn't matter. It's about surviving in the moment and having an intact, healthy, respectful relationship with your children. And it's having a boundary, having a decent boundary. so actually, can I give another example? It just happened this weekend that a friend told me.

Dr. Cam (18:02)

You can, and then I have a few questions of certain situations I'd love to run by you. No, I want to hear your story.

Hesha Abrams (18:05)

Well, you go first then, you go first. Okay, so I was at a wedding this weekend and a girlfriend of mine is the stepmother and she was out with the mother of the bride and the sister of the bride and her and they were all getting their nails done. And so they were commenting about I had flown up to support her and how wonderful that her friends had done that. And the 29 year old spoke up and said, well, mom, that wouldn't work for you. You don't have any friends excuse me? Excuse me? That's because that was a mother who wanted to be liked. So she wanted to be friends with her daughter. Well, that's what she got. She got that kind of, you're okay with that. Okay. I'm not okay with that. I would never be treated that way. My kids would be scared to say something like that to me, but that's how I, that's what I want it. Now, if you want to be friends with your kids, you're going to get friend behavior as opposed to respect and parent behavior. Now that doesn't mean you have to be an autocrat, obnoxious, not friendly with them. Of course not. Why is it either end? You should be able to do both, right? But that's, it just came up this weekend and I went, you know, and the problem is, can she correct it now? Yes. It'll be a harder spaghetti sauce to wipe off. Yes. But it can be done. It can. It's just a whole lot harder. So if everyone listening to this podcast, do it now. Whatever stage you're at and whatever you got, do these Holdin' the Comm techniques, do it now and you will have a better trajectory. I promise you, this is magic bean stuff.

Dr. Cam (19:48)

It is, and I think it's really difficult because when we get in that, have such this, it's kind of ingrained in us that when there's a power struggle, you get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Instead of, I feel like what you're saying is that calm, and I kind of call it like being at the bottom of the ladder is where the power is, right? Instead of this escalation. But it feels to a lot of people that you're letting them take power over you and walk all over you. So how would you address people that feel like that is showing a weakness?

Hesha Abrams (20:25)

Yep, good. That's a very, very good question. So again, if I have a fork, I can eat with it, I can comb my hair with it, or I can stab you with it. Right? It's all a technique. So if you're feeling that, then you're a person that is not, has not been able yet to hold onto your own power. So if you can't do it verbally, let's say you're not, let's say you're an introvert and you're not a big verbal person and your kid's a big verbal person. That's hard. You are not going to out -argue somebody who is a better arguer than you. You're just not gonna do it. So play a different game. Say we're not playing football, we're playing golf. I'm gonna change the size of the ball or tennis. I'm gonna change the size of the ball. So what the best technique you've got is silence. You've got body language. So let's say, just use an example, you're railing at me. I can't out -talk you. I don't have the energy. What if I'm sick? What if I'm tired? What if I'm just an introvert? What if I just can't put up with your anymore, right? And you're railing at me. So I can't do it that way. So what do you do? You withdraw from the situation.

I named the emotion. You seem very upset. I'm not upset, I'm angry. Okay? You seem like you're very angry. I do it. Your sympathetic nervous system is going to have a need to copy mine. I don't say to you take a deep breath. I just go I'd like to try to work this through. I admire how passionate you are think we could use a do -over to maybe handle this better, don't you think?

Because I'm not sure it's coming out the way either one of us want. Now, who has the power in that situation? OK? So what happens is if I'm not 300 pounds of muscle, I'm not playing football. I'm not going to do it. Why would I do that? I'm better at golf or tennis or soccer or ping pong. I have the power. I'm going to change the game. And you know the proof, parents, that you have the power? They're arguing with you. If you didn't have the power, they would take the car keys and go!

Dr. Cam (22:54)

Exactly. I love that too because arguing is actually in this weird way a sign of respect because they need to convince you. Otherwise they wouldn't even try. So I think that is so important to know that if they are having this conversation, they're not disrespecting you. They're actually respecting you, but in an emotionally, in a way that's not emotionally regulated.

Hesha Abrams (23:02)

Correct. mean, they're doing it, you know, I know we use emotional regulation and all that, and I think it's great word. I tend to look at it as a skillset. They have a poor skillset. Then I have to say as a parent, do I have a poor skillset? Am I modeling good skillset behavior? That's the honest ownership you have to do privately as a parent. And that's why, again, I wrote this little book. I I do these techniques with big executives. I do big stuff.

Dr. Cam (23:24)

It is. Yes.

Hesha Abrams (23:47)

Why can't regular people have access to it? So, and I did the book, you know, 20 chapters, 20 techniques. They don't have to be done in order. You just move them around and you try one and go, that actually works. So you improve your skillset. Then you model it for them and everything's going to get better. It's, it's really, it's really magic and it doesn't take long. That's the thing. You don't have to take some PhD course or take some study or get certified or read some big fat book. No, it's a simple little something. You do this today. You know, it's really one of the things when I was young and as a mediator and I was wanting to get better at hard things, I was at a Walmart returning something and my God, the level of conflict and difficulty was off the charts. And I stayed there for two hours just watching, just watching and listening. How would I have handled that? How could I have diffused that?

How could I have moved it along? I learned so much because I saw so many different kinds of people and I saw the interaction. Well, I wouldn't have handled it that way. I would handle it this way. And I did that when I was young, you cause I'm a mediator. I get all these people coming into a room with me. I don't have time to say, please, let me analyze you and know who you are. You you got to do stuff fast. People will tell you who they are very quickly, you know? And if you're lactose intolerant,

Why am I shoving ice cream at you? You're gluten free. Why am I shoving pizza at you? I'm going to say, I got you a cauliflower crust. And people go, whoa, that was so thoughtful of you. mean, you can change the entire tone. Let's say you've been having a lot of conflict with your teenager for a month, just a lot. Make them their favorite dinner that night. Or buy them their favorite cake and say, you know what? We've been having a lot of conflict. And I have to tell you,

You couldn't pay me to be a teenager again. It is so hard. Hormones are busting through your body. High school is terrible. Boys and girls and where do I fit in and what do I, it's, you know what? You just need a break. And I just want to give you a break. And then you make them the favorite dinner or the favorite dessert or something. You don't think you did a 180 on them? They're going to go, whoa, whoa. And that's like giving away power or enabling. It's seeing their struggle, which makes you an ally in the struggle. And that's the question for all parents. Would anybody raise your hands, go back and be a teenager? I mean, seriously.

I wouldn't. So we have to have compassion on these people. We have to just, you know, there's a Jewish word called Rachmanis. And it's such a good word because it comes from the word Recha, which means womb. So when you have compassion, it comes from your womb. That's where it comes from, this deep. It's not about being right or wrong or good or bad. It's Rachmanis. It's compassion.

Dr. Cam (26:40)

I always say we want to be sitting on the same side of the bench, not opposing each other, right? Like we're helping them along. And I think it's so hard for parents to not take it personally. Cause like you said, we want our kids to like us. We want them to respect us. And if we feel like they don't, we get hurt, we get angry, we respond out of that emotion and we make it about us. And the second we make it about us, we are not making it about them which is why they're acting out.

Hesha Abrams (27:22)

That's exactly well done. So let me give you a suggestion when that happens, parents, and a kid says something and you're pissed. So you can't use, you you're not holding the column just yet. You know what you can say? Excuse me?

Dr. Cam (27:33)

Yes, exactly.

Hesha Abrams (27:39)

And that's it, because there's nothing to fight. There's no target. They have to stop for a minute. Like, what just happened? What just happened here? So for you that are introverted, you're tired, you're cranky, I don't know what to say, I don't know how to say it. Excuse me? That just gives you a pause into which now you can do something else. These are just great, you know, because you can say all day long, be calm, stand still, take a deep breath.

Dr. Cam (28:09)

It just makes them more angry. As it would us. If our team told us and our teens do tell us you need to calm down, ooh, no, right? They react the same way. So it's, we got to think about that. H, I want to ask you, cause this, I've seen this situation and I know people listening specifically have this situation where their teen gets pretty aggressive and they're bigger than them now and they kind of come in their face and get at them.

Hesha Abrams (28:17)

It just, it's terrible. As you all see.

Dr. Cam (28:44)

and they try to walk away and they just follow them, right? And they just follow and yell and the more they try to stay quiet and disappear, the more their teen kind of jumps on them. How do they handle that situation?

Hesha Abrams (28:47)

Right. So that one's tough. I, you know, I would say not in every situation, but in most situations you let the spaghetti sauce get dry. Okay. So now you've got a problem. You've got a bigger kid who's more aggressive and you walking away gives them power. So can't do that. Okay. So what I would do is, cause you have to get this re -changed because at 16, it's bad at 24, it's even worse. Okay. So at some point you just have to do it.

So what I would do is change, again, I keep talking about change the football to a tennis ball, from a big ball to a small ball. Let's say they're following you, sit down, go sit in a chair. Okay, now they can lean over you with the chair, but you can do this in the chair, right? You can say, I can't hear you when you're yelling at me.

Dr. Cam (29:46)

Yeah, do you know in a way?.

Hesha Abrams (29:55)

If they're talking so much, it's only output that's happening. You need input to be able to happen, right? I can't hear you when you're yelling at me and let them keep yelling and you stop talking, but you just sit there and go, I can't hear you when you're yelling at me. Now what I've had families do, I've had church groups do, HOAs do, businesses do is they all buy the book and they have a little book clue. And then, but then you have the same lexicon. So you can say we're holding the con together or this is your magic beans, or whatever the words are, or I'm gonna give you a wowed, a way out with dignity. Very often, people need to have a wowed. People, they've screwed up, they've screwed up bad, but they need a wowed, a way out with dignity. So you can sometimes say you need a wowed. They go, what? You know, and say, you know what? I know this is not at your best, and I know you're having trouble doing it. Okay, let me give you another technique. I call it, I literally invented this with my grandchildren, because I was too, I didn't know this when I was a young parent. So when my kid was angry or the grandchild was angry, they were so angry, they can't get out of it. You can't use any words. So I taught them to dinosaur it out. If you take your hand and see your fingernails right here, dig your fingernails hard into the fatty part. You pinch it. Give yourself a little pinch like it hurts a little bit. What it does is it interrupts the synapses on the sympathetic nervous system. Anger, anger, anger, woo, rallying around like that. You do this and now, ow, there's something here. It's a reason why people would smack you across the face, which obviously we're not gonna do, or wear a rubber band and they'd snap the rubber band. If you've got a kid that has an anger problem, teach them the technique and put a rubber band on their hand so they can do it to themselves when you feel out of control. 

They know they're out of control. They don't like it any more than you like it, but they don't know what to do. So you're helping them snap that rubber band a couple of times. And what it does is it, it's the equivalent of smacking someone across the face to where you go, whoa, what just happened? teach this. I mean, I use it and I've taught this to adults too. So, cause adults, you know, we have times where it just for whatever reason, you know, the sympathetic nervous system is totally engaged and you can't change it.

So I'm not gonna smack you across the face, but I may say, hey, I won't say you dinosaur it out. I'm gonna say, hey, let's dinosaur it out. And I'll do this. And then sometimes I'll go, dinosaur it out. Come on, do it with me. Dinosaur it out. And you do that instead of saying, you're mad, you're angry. You need to calm down. What's wrong with you? How is that helpful? But if I can see that you're doing that, I'm gonna go, ooh, the dinosaur is out baby, it's dinosaur down. Think about how does the other person react when you do that? They're gonna go, and then it's fun. Now they're gonna go in, then you get to do the, okay, can we do a do over? I really respect how you did that. You did a very good dinosauring it out. Cause my big emotions are awful. They come over you like a hurricane.

Hesha Abrams (33:20)

And you handled that so well. All I had to do was suggest dinosaur -ing it out to you. And you did it. God, I'm proud of you. Well done. That messaging.

Dr. Cam (33:30)

And then you're focusing on the positive of it and not belaboring the issue of it. And that's again, going into that solution. And everything that you're saying is focused on what we do rather than what we're making our teens do or the child or the person that's upset. Our job is not to change them because we can't. Our job is to show up differently. And when we show up differently,

Hesha Abrams (33:37)

Correct.

Dr. Cam (34:01)

It changes because those mirror neurons or just we're not adding anymore to the anger and to the emotion. So it's really all about how do we show up and there's, again, you said there's so much power in not losing it.

Hesha Abrams (34:16)

so much. And when you do, because I want to make sure you're going to lose it, catch yourself. And then you can say, I'm going to dinosaur this out because I'm feeling so angry right now. I can't really think I'm going to dinosaur it out. Your kids going to look at you like, what the heck? But what are you doing? You're modeling skillset development. You're modeling good behavior. So what happens when they're mad at a teacher or on the football field or with a friend? Are they going to blow up at them? Are they going to get arrested because they threw a punch?

or have you taught them how to handle big emotions? How about, God, when I was young, a young mother, I read this story of a high school football quarterback who was wealthy, blessed, good looking, good at school, like he just had everything. And he was dating, of course, you know, the head cheerleader and she dumped him. And he went home, took his dad's gun, put it in his mouth and killed himself.

And I remember reading that and thinking, this is a kid who never was taught how to handle big emotions, how to handle disappointment. So when disappointment happened, it was cataclysmic. It was earth shattering. There was no solution or no way out. So as a parent, you need to be able to teach your children, crap's going to happen, bad crap. And you're going to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and go on. It's not the end of the world.

You teach them how to handle extreme disappointment, extreme sadness, extreme anger. You have to teach them how to do that, otherwise they can't be adults. They won't know how to do it. And if no one taught you, give yourself grace and you teach you now. No one taught me these things. I had to teach myself, but now they're mine. And do you know how powerful I feel? Because they're mine. And then when I share them and teach them, the other person feels

Hesha Abrams (36:16)

the authenticity, the honesty, the power and says, ooh, I want some of that too. Great, great.

Dr. Cam (36:25)

Hesha, I want to point out to what you're saying because I think this is so critical for parents to grasp. We are not trying to stop them from feeling anger. We are not trying to stop them from even deep sadness. Those are things I think we have this knee -jerk reaction to want to make them feel better and make them want to stop that emotion because it makes us uncomfortable. And what you're saying is, if we don't,

If we force them to stop it and then they can't, they don't know how to handle it. So this is about giving them the space to be angry, even at us. And that's okay. We just, we keep our space so that their anger is not making us angry. We're not taking it personally. We're going there experiencing anger. It doesn't mean that they're hurting us. And I think...

Hesha Abrams (37:00)

I love it when you said that. And you know, I they have so many techniques about that that are not, you know, new, like scream into a pillow, you know, punch into something like that. There are times where something is so angry. I may say to the kid, you know what, let's scream into a pillow and go and we pick up a pillow and just scream into it and do it with them as opposed to you're the little weirdo. You need to scream into a pillow. No, let's do it together. And you know what? Within 30 seconds, they're laughing.

They're laughing. That's what's so amazing about this. They're laughing.

Dr. Cam (37:52)

Okay, I have another specific question I want to ask you as you're saying that because I have several clients too whose kids, when they get upset, will literally kick the walls, kick the door in, create holes in the walls. How do we redirect that? We're not going to make them stop feeling angry, but how do we help redirect that so they're not destructive?

Hesha Abrams (38:15)

Well, again, I'm gonna say as parents, you gotta own that you didn't wipe up the spaghetti sauce when it was wet. Otherwise you're never gonna fix it. You're just gonna go, it's the way they are, whatever. No, there's some ownership to that. You didn't know, I didn't know. No one teaches this stuff. That's why you are doing your podcast. That's why I wrote my book. No one teaches this stuff. So we're trying to get it out there. So if it's already happened, a problem's already happened. So now you have to be corrective. So your job is to see the trajectory. It doesn't go from, I'm going to kick the wall instantly. I guarantee you. And here, the proof of it, why do I call my book, Holding the Calm, The Secret to Resolving Conflict and Diffusing Tension? So here, long title. Why would they make such a long title on this? Because all conflict, 100 % of it, starts with tension. And the tension can be this.

Dr. Cam (38:57)

There you go. Love it.

Hesha Abrams (39:09)

Or it can be this, it can be mm. It can be all of that, right? So you have to start being attuned to your kid. What are the warning signals? Wipe that spaghetti sauce up when it's wet. Get into it right away and say, ooh, ooh, you're looking like you're getting angry. It's pillow time, let's go. And start screaming into the pillow. Or sometimes jumping jacks, let's go. Pushups, let's go. You know, something that is physical, that is the snap that is the dinosaur in it out, screaming into a pillow, jumping up and down. You're teaching them that when the feelings happen, because you're a human being, this is how we handle it. When they're kicking or destructive, it's just because they don't know any better. Because the feeling is a tsunami, it's a hurricane, it's a tornado. And they just, can't get the energy out of themselves. So you have to, I guarantee you there were 10 steps before that. I guarantee you. And what happens is you're not noticing it or you're not reacting to it, catch it early, then what are you also teaching them? How they should do it. Let's say there's a parent in the household that punches a wall when he's angry. I mean, you know, so, and a spouse is a lot harder to train, but when you see the kid doing it and you train the kid, it's a conversation for the spouse also, because nobody wants to be a raging lunatic. Nobody. I don't care if you're a kid or an adult, you've just lost control. And if you say to someone, gain control,

Get calm, breathe. If I could, I would. So help me, right? So help. That's all it is. you know what's best for your kids. know, sometimes, you know, if it's a little kid, let's make funny faces. No one make funny faces. And then they start laughing. It's anything designed to interrupt that sympathetic nervous system so that they can get a break. And then sometimes it may be, okay.

Okay, there's a big issue here. We need to talk about that. And God, am I proud of you for riding that dragon. Well, that was a bunking brocco. It was rolling you all over the place and you rode it. Good for you. Then you get into what was it? And often it was not whatever it's presented to be. It's some something else, whatever, whatever, whatever. That's how you clean it up. You know, so.

Dr. Cam (41:32)

I think that point is really key too, because we often look at exactly what just happened as the problem and often, and again, it's a sign that they feel safe around us when they're able to show that ugly emotion in front of us, because they hold it in all day where they're not safe, and then they come. So it's this really awkward compliment that we get all the ugly emotion but when we teach them how to make it through it, then we're really using that opportunity. love it. So, Keisha, what is one we've, my gosh, there's so much great stuff we just covered. what is like kind of one big takeaway you want to make sure parents walk away with from this?

Hesha Abrams (42:17)

Give yourself grace, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and try again. News alert, you're not perfect. You're not supposed to be perfect. It's impossible to be perfect, but you can keep trying to get better. And best is the enemy of better. That's what I tell people. Just get better. That's all. And you're gonna teach them how to get better. And then in the end, it's gonna be good.

It's gonna be good. I bless everybody. It's gonna be good. That's why I wrote this little, and you know what? I had people wanting me to make it a workbook and more expensive and a fancy thing. I said, no. I wanted a little cheap $15 paperback that can be read in two hours. Quick, little, simple, so that you can do something right now. That's

Dr. Cam (42:47)

There we go.Thank you so much for jumping on. know there's, I'm sending this to a lot of people already I can think of that are really going to take, get some good, good insights from this. So thank you for that.

Hesha Abrams (43:14)

My pleasure, everybody.

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together. #theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam

Parenting teens is exhausting, overwhelming, and—let’s be honest—frustrating. But what if the key to handling it all isn’t about controlling their behavior? In this episode, Dr. Cam and Heather Chauvin dive into the power of self-care, emotional intelligence, and shifting your parenting mindset. Learn why focusing on your own growth and well-being can actually make you a more effective parent—and create a healthier, more connected relationship with your teen.

• Why parenting teens feels so overwhelming—and how to manage it
• The surprising link between self-care and parenting success
• How to stop perfectionism from sabotaging your parenting
• The game-changing shift from control to curiosity
• Simple strategies to strengthen your connection with your teen

1. Parenting teens can be emotionally exhausting—taking care of yourself helps you show up better.
2. You are more than just a parent—self-identity matters.
3. Perfectionism is a coping strategy—not a personality trait. Let it go!
4. Curiosity is key—observing instead of controlling leads to better communication.
5. Self-respect influences how your teen treats you—it all starts with you.

Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes packed with practical tips just for you! Thanks for your support! 🙌

🔔 Hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode!

📖 Book: Dying to Be a Good Mother by Heather Chauvin

00:00 Navigating the Challenges of Parenting Teens
02:58 Heather Chauvin’s Journey to Empowerment
06:11 The Importance of Self-Identity in Parenting
08:56 Managing Overwhelm and Perfectionism
11:58 The Role of Self-Care in Parenting
15:03 Shifting Focus: From Control to Curiosity
17:55 Energetic Time Management for Parents
20:53 Creating a Healthy Parent-Child Dynamic
24:01 Embracing Emotional Intelligence in Parenting
26:59 The Power of Self-Respect and Connection

• Website: HeatherChauvin.com
• Instagram: @HeatherChauvin_
• YouTube: Heather Chauvin
• Podcast: The Mom Is In Control Podcast

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam

Parents, let's face it, parenting teens can be emotionally and mentally exhausting. We're constantly juggling their mood challenges and the pressure of guiding them through some of the most difficult years of their lives and ours. The weight of always trying to say the right thing, keep the peace, and manage our own stress can lead of us feeling drained and overwhelmed. So how do we support our teens without burning out?

That's why I've invited Heather Chauvin to join us today. Heather is a leadership coach who helps successful women break free from the overwhelm and live, work, and parent with courage and authenticity. She's been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur, and Real Simple Magazine. And she's here today to share strategies to help us lighten the emotional load, manage stress, and stay grounded so we can show up for our teens without losing ourselves in the process. Heather, welcome.

Heather Chauvin (00:56)

I'm so excited for this conversation. Thank you.

Dr. Cam (01:00)

Me too. So let's just start with your backstory. I love doing that. How did you get into leader leading women and getting into that?

Heather Chauvin (01:08)

Well, it's actually funny and not so funny because teens, I have three boys, they're 19. Next month will be 15 and 12. And I'm incredibly passionate about raising this specific generation of teens because, or this age group. Because I was a teenager when I actually became a mother. I was 18 years old and that was my first cracking into personal development in my first moment as a mother, as a human, and as a small child or a young adult coming into the world, just with hitting that primal fear of not wanting to feel like I'm failing as a mother. And I remember looking at my son thinking, I don't want to become a statistic. I don't want us to become a statistic. And I need to do whatever I can in my power to become the adults that I most desire you to be. And the pendulum kind of swung where I was this overwhelmed, anxious teenager who wasn't behavioral. I didn't act out. I kind of retreated. And because I kind of swung the pendulum, of course, my nervous system was not regulated. And I started to become the overachiever. And I went and got a social work degree. I did all the things, I was checking the boxes. I was looking outside of myself for validation of like, am I good? Am I good? Is this what a good mother does? Is this what a good woman does? And internally, I felt like I was dying. Like I could just feel the burnout. I could feel the burnout and exhaustion, but I was like, this is not sustainable. And I knew that at a young age. And I had the whereabouts with me to ask for help, as we should. I went to therapy.

I went to the doctors and I started doing the traditional things and the feedback I was getting was like, like we were talking about the problem, but I wasn't getting like solutions to fix the problem or like I say fix, but like tools to implement and a strategy to physically like head in the right direction. I felt completely lost and like I was begging people to help me and the feedback was kind of like, this is adulthood, suck it up buttercup, you know, this is motherhood and But a part of me just wouldn't accept that. Fast forward, after leaving my corporate job as a social worker, I decided to really be the change I wanted to be in the world or make the change. And I started my podcast, started my business. And then I was diagnosed with a stage four cancer. My body was bleeding like please take care of yourself. I didn't understand the signs and symptoms and all the things. And that was, had nine years of personal development under my belt. I also had nine years of conscious parenting research and starting to help people see and understand their children's behavior. And it was, it was that moment where I was like, ladies, because I was primarily talking to women, like we need to stop just solely focused on the child and the child's behavior because we are part of the equation because at the moment I would hear feedback from my clients, cause I was a coach and they would say things to me like, I don't have time to implement this. My marriage is falling apart. My career is falling apart. I'm chronically overwhelmed. I'm feeling depleted. And I was like, okay, but we're focused over here. And then I was like, we need to look at both sides of the coin, both sides of the equation. And that was over a decade ago. Since then still helping women with the exact same issue, but at a different level and really supporting them to feel whole and fulfilled and alive and energized both at home and in their work.

Dr. Cam (05:11)

I think a lot of people are going to be relating to this because that sense of overwhelm and needing to be perfect in every aspect of our lives. And women have so many different parts of their lives that they feel the need to be perfect in. And I think when it comes to parenting, especially with parenting teens, and all of a sudden we have the teen dynamics to deal with, a lot of us do feel like we're completely failing. And I see parents that will push that aside and just focus on what they're good at, right? So they just kind of blame the teen, go, that's the problem and I'm gonna focus here. Or they're so focused on trying to fix it and not being able to that they just start crumbling a little bit. So how do we get to a place, first of all, where we get into a good head space about who we are as a parent and what that looks like to be successful as a parent?

Heather Chauvin (06:11)

Yeah, I think we need to stop labeling ourselves as mother or parent and start labeling ourselves as a human being because when we're putting them, we're over identifying with our labels and our roles and we're under identifying with who we are as a person and that we actually have basic human needs that are not being met to be seen, heard, love, understood. mean, freaking hydrated sunlight, like meals.Like the basics are not being met. And so I can identify with this in my own journey of like, who am I without being a mother? But the second your child turns a teen or you're starting to notice those hormonal changes, I mean, we had quite the time during COVID, like raising my oldest teenager, and it can be a shock to your system and you're gaining momentum, right? And you're like, what am I doing wrong?

And I think we have to stop making it about us and start being curious and observant as to what is actually going on in front of us. We take things so personal because we care so much. And I don't think we can argue with any parent that you don't love your children, right? Sometimes we have to learn how to manage that love because if we're not managing it or having boundaries with it, we're actually over -nurturing and over -compensating. And so whether it's overwhelm or perfectionism, so I always tell people like, write this down. Perfectionism is a coping strategy. It's not a personality trait. You don't say I'm a perfectionist. It's like you cope with perfectionism And when you can see you cope with perfectionism, you can see that as the blanket, as the mask. And then you begin to become curious as to why you do what you do. And again, overwhelm is a symptom. So if you are overwhelmed, that's a symptom. That's not a way of being. It's not a lifestyle. We do not need to accept feeling a certain way just because it's normal. And so cancer taught me that, but even way before that, I had this thought as to like, why do I need to feel like crap just because I'm a mother? Why do, and the reality is like going from the journey of, I mean, my son's almost 20 now, realizing that.

What actually saved me and helped my son going through the most difficult time and transition in his life was the fact that I had the mental, emotional and physical and spiritual capacity to hold him in his most vulnerable transition from childhood to adulthood. And that is, I just remember thinking again and again, damn, if I didn't do this work before I would be experiencing way more overwhelm in my life going through this transition and that saved me. But it is that belief that taking care of our needs takes away from other people. It's kryptonite to success in parenting.

Dr. Cam (09:40)

I think there's almost this badge of honor people wear when they are so overwhelmed and busy. Like we say it as though it's like a brag, like, my gosh, I've got so much, when we're just haggard and exhausted. So I think first of all, that's almost like if we have it together, it's like, well, why aren't you doing enough kind of thing? Like you're saying no to stuff, who do you think you are? So I think there's this misconception of what it means to be a successful and involved parent and what that looks like. So the first thing is really separating that out. So in your mind, what does it look like to be a healthy, successful parent when it's not overwhelmed in doing everything?

Heather Chauvin (10:39)

So, okay, so number one, you said something that when we're complaining or we're wearing busy as a badge of honor or we're trying to connect, it's the first thing that happens when you go to a kid's sporting event or you're hanging out, like in mom groups. I'm using mom in general, it can be parents in general. But you see this look in their eyes and their eyes get a little bit bigger and they're like, are you suffering like me?

Are you struggling like me? Because as human beings, we desire connection and belonging. And sometimes we're over identifying our suffering and our challenges with each other. It's like a little trauma bond, right? Like, are you struggling like me too? I just want to make sure that, you know, we're all in this together. And I'm always like, yes, and I want to have the opposite conversation. So.

I want to tell a quick story. So when I was diagnosed with cancer and I tell people that was like a bump in the road for me, but that's not who I am and it's not my whole story. So maybe you haven't had a health diagnosis, but maybe there's something else in your life that has kept you up at night. And it could be your child's behavior, your team's behavior, your team's future failure to launch or something, their mental health, their emotional wellbeing. So I want you to consider this. So I remember coming home one night from the hospital. I was in transition from like, was in a recovery state and I woke up in the middle of the night, two, three o 'clock in the morning. I need to quickly have your panic attacks, your body's like, and I was in the bathroom and I remember feeling like number one, I cannot burden anybody with my feelings. I need to keep this in and I need to keep it quiet. And I went in the bathroom and I was crying because I was having a panic attack.

And the story I was telling myself in my mind is I'm going to die. My body was in a state of fight or flight. And I'm like, I'm going to die. I'm going to die. I'm going to die. At that point, I had enough coaching under my belt and self -awareness that I could get myself out of the state of fear and into the present moment. And I was like, I'm going to die. going to die. I'm going to die. I'm like, Heather, you are still alive. You are still alive. Come back to this present moment.

And then I asked myself this question. How do you want to feel? If you know you don't want to feel chronically overwhelmed, chronically fatigued, angry, frustrated, resentful, exhausted, and for me, dead inside and in a state of fight or flight, how do I want to feel? And in that moment, I didn't technically know how I wanted to feel, but I knew how I didn't want to feel. And I didn't want to feel, I didn't want to feel like I was dying.

So the opposite of that was living. I wanted to feel alive. So I repeated in my mind, I wanna feel alive, I wanna feel alive, I wanna feel alive. And then Dr. Cam, I got scared and fear came over me again because I had no evidence of how to feel alive. And I realized in the moment that I wasn't

It wasn't that I didn't have time to implement. It wasn't that I didn't have the tools. It was that I wasn't giving myself permission to go to that next level in how I wanted to feel and kind of open that door of uncertainty and the unknown. But because of my situation, I had no other way. I was like, Heather, if you do not figure out how to feel alive and energized,

the literally your deepest fear will come true. And it still may come true, but that's the uncertainty of life. So the only way out is through. only way is up. The only way is going after who you wanna be and how you wanna feel. And so the next day I asked myself, how do I wanna feel? How do I wanna feel? How do I wanna feel? And I started taking action in that direction.

What would an alive person do? The reason why this story is so important is because I am the foundation of my children's wellbeing. And I am not responsible for my children's behavior in the sense of like, I cannot control their behavior, but I can influence it. And there is a connectedness.

So I can be the role model and I can be the guide and I can show them what's possible for them and become the type of person that I most desire my child to be, but I cannot do the work for them. And so when my teen was struggling, could see, I could see the fear. I could see the paralyzed uncertainty of like, I need to make a decision on my future. And there's so much unknown cause this is so new to me and I'm afraid. And I could empathize with that because I knew what it looked like and felt like to sit in my fear and yet take action in the direction of what my soul craved. Take action in the direction of how I wanted to feel. So I could see an older version of myself and I'm like, I have a tool and I know how I did that. So I'm gonna be your and guide you in that direction. But you have to choose if you want to take that action or not. And there were many, many times where I had to do that again and again and again, whether it was in the educational system or whether it was with having uncomfortable conversations with my husband or my son or his support team, where I had to say, I feel like I'm backed into a corner. Who do I want to be?

How do I want to feel and how can I take a stand for this child regardless of his future?

Dr. Cam (17:03)

Wow, that's a lot. And that's a complete shift because now your focus is on your response and you and what you're doing and not how do I make my child do this? How do I make my child change that? How do I make other people do what I need them to do to feel okay? It's what do I need to do to feel okay?

Heather Chauvin (17:28)

Just this conversation makes me think, so I am a, and I'm sure we all know what that's like. If you're raising a fierce, independent, rebellious child, I don't know about you, but as an adult, when people are trying to control me, I feel I'm like so turned off and I actually push that person away. So if I have a new friend in my life, And they're like texting me every day and I'm like, don't have the capacity for this. Like I'll text you. I'm the person that like, you're like 911, I need you. But if it's not a real 911, this is not going to be it. So I know the more I try to control my children, the more they're going to push me away. And so I've learned to read emotional behavior and call myself out too, that if I say I need to fix him, because I still do this, I need to fix him.

I'm like, what is this triggering inside of me? Okay, it's triggering fear. Okay, why am I afraid? Well, if he doesn't change, he's gonna become a drug addict and he's gonna do this and he's gonna live in my basement forever and he's gonna, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Come back to the present moment. If I'm trying to control somebody else outside of me, that means there's something inside of me that I feel out of control.

And then so I go inward and I go, first of all, number one, what do I need to control within me? That's my work to do. But I'm also gonna be mindful that this behavior is like a red flag to me and I am concerned. So I'm not gonna avoid it. And this is what I don't appreciate about the parenting space right now is that they've swung where it's like, it's all about you, manage yourself, manage yourself.

And I'm like, yes, and we still need to look at our children's behavior and be like, they are talking to us. So if there is a behavior that is concerning to you, pay attention to it, but control yourself at the same time and then say, hey, let's have a conversation about this. How can I help you? How can I advocate? But come from a different energy and not a controlling energy, but more of a curious energy of a co -creation.

Dr. Cam (19:23)

I'm 100 % with the curious. I think that is the most important thing is understanding the why and you're absolutely right. It's not a, okay, they're going to go do their thing. I'm going to go do my thing. there's, we are still responsible for guiding them and for modeling for them. And so when we're, let's say we're talking to parents right now that are listening and they're in that mode of just, they're so overwhelmed right now. They're just like, I don't even know where to begin my teen isn't studying and doing their homework and I've got the school calling me and I have another one that just won't even go to school and I have another one that, and I just, I don't know where to start. Like you're saying that I need to focus on me, but I don't have time because there's too much other stuff that I need to deal with. What is the first thing that I can do right now to start shifting into this place where I'm more focused on taking care of how I'm showing up when I don't feel like I even have the ability to do that right now.

Heather Chauvin (20:53)

Okay, so number one, this is my favorite thing to teach people. It's called energetic time management. Pen and paper. So you're gonna have to listen to this again and again, but this is, love giving actionable steps. Number one, brain dump it all. Pen and paper, just let it out. When you're like, I'm frozen, I don't know what to do, I'm so overwhelmed, I have all this energy coming at me just dump it out. Like I like to categorize things. So I'll be like, the school is calling for this kid. I would put kids in buckets and then all the things I had to do. Then ask yourself how, so the brain dump is just to get it out. Every time I tell people this, they're like, I feel lighter already. I'm like, just get it out. Sometimes you don't even need to do anything with it. It's like get it out and your brain dumps might be the same thing over and over and over again.

The second thing is I am a huge fan of this journal prompt and it's, wouldn't it be nice if. So I'm not asking you what's your dreams or desires. I'm asking you what, or I am asking you what your desires are. I'm not asking you what you want. I'm saying magic wand, wouldn't it be nice if, and you can, you can like write down little things like, wouldn't it be nice if I had a glass of water right now? Wouldn't it be nice if the weather wasn't cold?

So some of these things you can control, some you can't control. Just dump it all out. It be small things, big things. This is data. This is breadcrumbs. These are desires that are inside of you. The second thing is once you take that list, figure out the feeling that you're after. So Danielle Laporte taught me forever ago, it's not the thing you're after, it's the feeling. This is like the core of manifestation. Okay, it's...

It's a gray sky outside. Wouldn't it be nice if the sun was out? Why? How do I think I'm going to feel when the sun is out? Wouldn't it be nice if we had a bigger home? Why do I want a bigger home? Because I want to feel more spacious. Wouldn't it be nice if I had more money in the bank? Why do you want more money in the bank? I want to feel safe. like all of this is data as to figuring out how to feel in control of your feelings because

I've seen this is what we usually do is we write down this list, we go after it, check, check, check, check, check. You got the more money in the bank, you got the bigger house and guess what? You're more stressed out, you feel more depleted, you're more angry, frustrated. So when we know how we want to feel, then we can start reverse engineering that. And the feeling is the guiding light. The feeling is the North Star. Then when the school calls,

When the report card comes in, when your child is retreating or reacting, you are coming from a more fulfilled, full place and you can be curious. When your brain is operating in the state of fight or flight or survival mode, you are just trying to get your basic human needs met. And so you have to, have to.

to be quote unquote successful at being present for your children, take care of yourself from a mental, physical, emotional and spiritual perspective. And to me, spiritual perspective is desires. There's bigger beliefs of, know, whatever you believe that's on you. But to me, when I started going, I crave, you know, wouldn't it be nice if and it was like these random things. like, I can't self abandon my needs forever because then I become angry and resentful. Regardless of my body shutting down, I start to project onto my kids. I start yelling, my marriage feels disconnected. So it is really understanding that the most unselfish thing you can do when you are in a state of overwhelm is to take care of everybody else but yourself.

So number one, brain dump. Number two, ask yourself, wouldn't it be nice if, look at that list, ask yourself, what is the feeling that you're really, really after? And then that's where the reverse engineering comes in. And I talk a lot about that on my podcast.

Dr. Cam (25:28)

I love that and what a great thing to model to our kids too, right? Because when we start taking care of ourselves and showing up more calmly and showing up more confidently, it changes how our kids show up with us, right? And then we don't have all the stress because we feel connected. And when we let go of the need to control,

That reduces a ton of stress too, because trying to control something you don't have control over is extraordinarily stressful.

Heather Chauvin (26:00)

and scary. I actually, call parenting personal growth on steroids. And I feel like zero to teen years is kind of like marathon training. And the teen years are the race where you were like, WTF, what did I get myself into? I'm in the middle of a hurricane. And you, it is, you kind of do feel like you're backed into a corner because It triggers everything you need to look at in order to show up and lead for your kids. Every woman I work with, 99 .9 % of them are raising children. It's a different dynamic than someone who is not responsible for another human being and their wellbeing. It triggers your deepest wounds. It has triggered so much fear inside of me of I'm not enough, I'm gonna mess this up. like, what if I fail to being afraid to use my voice and then having to walk into a school and advocate and use my voice to talk to other adults that I need to figure out how to sell myself and sell this concept to them. Like from a sales perspective, it's helped me so much in business being seen and really really taking deep deep care of myself and showing up to those challenges from this perspective rather than what we're taught culturally is Mind -blowing to me. It is this counterintuitive way because I'm healthier than I've ever been in my entire life. I have I I'm I'm thriving in all areas of my life and challenged as well. But the mindset that I have, I never would have gotten here without being a mother. And that is so opposite of what we're taught culturally that you can't do both. You can't be successful over here and feel successful as a parent. But when you take on the identity as like, this is a leadership role. And when you learn to lead and feel alive, and have more energy, that's the secret. All the books are telling you.

Dr. Cam (28:30)

Absolutely. And I feel like because we're out there working and building this, like our other identity and this other focus, that to me is in my daughter. That's what my daughter looks at. And she comes to me and says, Mom, I see what you're doing, which means I know I can do it. And she's learning from me being more than a mom. And then I'm able to put so much more into being a mom because that's not, I'm focused more on just being there and supporting her, not controlling and doing every little aspect of her life, right? Which gives me the freedom, and she's appreciative of that. Like she does, they don't want us doing that. That's not what they need, right? So that frees us up a lot.

Heather Chauvin (29:17)

And when you have that honest, connected relationship with your child, they're like, please get a hobby. Please leave the house. Please focus on something else. My son will call me out. And I'm like, well, sometimes I think you're just trying to be a little manipulative, but sometimes you're being honest. And I could never have that conversation with my parents growing up. And I think that's the...

Dr. Cam (29:24)

Yes! Yes!

Heather Chauvin (29:42)

That's when you know you've healed. That's when you know you've shifted, where your children can give you honest feedback and vice versa. And you can do it in a respectful way.

Dr. Cam (29:51)

It doesn't feel threatening to you when you hear that. You're like, okay, good point. I don't feel disrespected. I feel like you're feeling comfortable with me and that changes everything. So Heather, what is one big thing that you want parents to take away from this episode?

Heather Chauvin (30:17)

Well, you just said something that was like stuck in my brain is respected. I hear from a lot of parents, I wanna feel respected. And if we want to, we teach people how to treat us. So if we wanna be respected by our children, we need to learn to respect ourselves. We need to learn to respect our bodies, what they're telling us. We need to learn to respect our time.

We need to learn to respect our wisdom. We need to learn to, to really take a stand for the value that we have as humans. Like we are more than just mother. And, you know, the reality is if we look externally, the world would not exist without mothers, right? There would be no, no like population and we call it mother earth for a reason. And so we need to learn to value and respect ourselves more so that we have a bigger voice in society. But our children will show us where we need to grow. And I think if we just adopt that philosophy of like, why is this happening for me, not to me, we show up differently and then we can create that connection and fulfillment. But I also don't believe in hard things. People talk, everything's hard, hard, hard, hard, hard. I think we're addicted to hard.

That's why my podcast is called Emotionally Uncomfortable because I'm like, how about we just, this is easy. The action is easy. It's just emotionally uncomfortable. So if I learn to become more emotionally intelligent and more attuned with my emotions, I can live in alignment with how I want to feel.

Dr. Cam (31:40)

it's happening for me rather than to me. It's such a small word shift, but an enormous mindset shift, which completely changes everything. Heather, how do people find you?

Heather Chauvin (32:13)

You can head on over to the podcast Emotionally Uncomfortable. My book is called Dying to Be a Good Mother, it's prescriptive memoir. And my website Heather Chauvin, C -H -A -U -V -I -N dot com, lots of free resources there. Always showing people the how to because if you do the work, you'll see results. So yeah, you can check out all the things.

Dr. Cam (32:37)

Phenomenal. Thank you so much for Heather. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Heather Chauvin (32:43)

Thanks Dr. Cam.

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together. #theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam

Dr. Cam Caswell is joined by Mark Fussell to explore powerful strategies for supporting teens' mental health. Mark shares insights from his platform, Take Two Minutes, which focuses on boosting mental wellness through positive psychology. They discuss practical tools like gratitude journaling, grounding exercises, and breathing techniques to help teens manage emotions and anxiety. The episode emphasizes the importance of patience, kindness, and love in fostering a supportive environment for teens' mental health.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How to support teens' mental health using positive psychology and proven techniques
• Effective strategies for managing anxiety, including gratitude journaling and grounding exercises
• The impact of gratitude on rewiring the brain for better emotional wellness
• Why patience, kindness, and love are essential when supporting teens' mental health
• Tips for fostering emotional resilience and helping teens bounce back from negativity

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

• Mental health is crucial for teens, and there are many ways parents can support their well-being.
• Take Two Minutes platform offers accessible tools for enhancing mental wellness through positive psychology.
• Gratitude journaling, grounding exercises, and breathing techniques are effective for reducing anxiety and improving emotional health.
• Support requires patience and the willingness to try different strategies that resonate with your teen.
• Positive reinforcement and kindness can help teens overcome emotional hurdles and thrive.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?
Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family! Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫 

🔔 Remember to hit Follow so you never miss another solution—packed episode! 🙌

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• Take Two Minutes platform - Website
• Use coupon code "DRCAM" for 20% off Take Two Minutes platform.

EPISODE CHAPTERS

• 00:00 Introduction to Supporting Teens' Mental Health
• 04:02 Tools for Managing Emotions and Anxiety
• 08:58 The Power of Gratitude in Rewiring the Brain
• 10:57 The Importance of Patience and Trying Different Strategies
• 12:32 Grounding Exercises for Calming Anxiety
• 18:31 Recognizing Positivity and Rebounding from Negative Experiences

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Mark Fussell

• Website: take2minutes.org
• Instagram: @take2min
• Facebook: @take2min
• YouTube: @take2min

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:02.636)

Today we're diving into a topic that couldn't be more crucial, your teens' mental health. As parents, we all want our kids to thrive emotionally, but knowing how to support them can sometimes feel overwhelming. So we've got some game -changing proven strategies that we're gonna give to you so they're right at your fingertips during the tough times. That's why I'm thrilled to have Mark Fussell with us today. Mark is the founder of Take Two Minutes, a platform that's all about boosting mental wellness through the science of positive psychology. Mark is here to share actionable techniques that you can start using right away. Welcome, Mark.

Marc S Fussell (00:40.344)

Thank you, Dr. Kam. I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Cam (00:43.248)

Yeah, this is a very important topic and I know I talk to a lot of parents that just want tools or like just tell us what we can do. So before we even get going, I would love to hear what sparked the idea of the Take Two Minutes.

Marc S Fussell (00:57.229)

It's interesting. It's actually my who now is my older son, but at the time he was much younger in 2015, my older son was in high school and he was struggling with what I call typical high school problems. And I say what I call because every everyone deals with things very differently. So when I heard of what was happening or what he was sad, depressed about in my mind, I was like, this is high school difficulties. And I decided to try to address it by something simple, which was sending him a message every day around noon. So in middle of his school day, letting him know he's loved, letting me know those people who care about him, just trying to lift his spirits. And that grew into me having a database of these positive messages. I'm a developer by heart. guess, you know, going back to my, my younger years, I was always a developer. So even when I was sending these messages to him, I was still in technology. And what I realized was every day when I wanted to send him a message, quite often I was in a meeting. I was doing something that was preoccupying my time. Further, most of my positivity was happening in the morning when I was either exercising or doing yoga or meditating. And around noon, as you may know, we have more stressful lives. And so I put together a little system that allowed me to write positive messages in the morning, put it into a document and the system would just take one out of the documents and send it to him every day. So yeah, they were still my messages. They were just being more automated sending to him. Well, that kind of snowballed into more people wanting to receive the messages. And I think at some point in time, I had 10, 15 people getting the messages and I didn't think anything else of it. thought this is kind of cool. People are reading my positive messages. So it's great. Well, one day I was in a coffee shop and someone behind me overheard me talking about it to the person who I knew is at the coffee shop. And they said, I get your messages too. And I had no idea that anyone else was getting them. And so I went and looked and there was about 300 people in the database who were receiving the messages. Yeah. So I was a little bit taken back and realized, I should probably do more with this because right now they're just my positive messages I've kind of made up. And not that I'm an expert, but I think they were good messages. So ultimately I reached out to my network of connections and learned that I had a connection with a doctor of psychology at Duke University. He was able to spend a lot of time on the phone with me, teaching me all about positive psychology, teaching me all about his studies. He had seven or eight years worth of studies he had done at that point around positive psychology and things that help people and really black and white data about how they help people. And so I started building out what's now Take Two Minutes. And that was probably in 2017, 2018, I started building Take Two Minutes.

Dr. Cam (03:33.034)

That is amazing and it's so great to have used technology for good. There's a lot of things we can do with good. So I love this and having those positive messages. We know the impact when you get them on a regular basis can rewire the brain. So you're helping your teenager rewire their brain to be more positive, which is phenomenal. And now we are talking about tools that parents can have. And this that itself is a great one. 

right, just sending those messages. But I have a lot of kids, especially once school starts, that really struggle to manage their emotions, that get very anxious about things, and parents want to help them and they don't know how. And so I'd love to provide some tools for them on what can they do when they see that their teen is struggling, what can they help them with.

Marc S Fussell (04:28.458)

Right. So I think there's a lot of answers to that question. And I'm going to start with, there is no one solution for everybody, right? And let's just start there. And I think that's an obvious statement, but not everyone recognizes that. The goal is to keep trying until you find something that works for the individual. Take two minutes is one of the many things you can try. Obviously, I'm gonna talk about take two minutes because it's my, as you said, my passion, what I know a lot about, but ultimately I know about positive psychology and there are a lot of tools out there and you have to find the one that works the best for your children. So what take two minutes can offer is a few things. We have a few different activities I'm gonna talk about that could help children.

Also, you mentioned the positive messages. We still have positive messages. They have grown. So we actually have an entire subset of positive messages now that are meant for middle school and high school kids. were created, the little subset, when I say little, it's 400 messages. They were created by teachers, school counselors, and also regular counselors and therapists that are really more targeted at that younger age. They're shorter messages. They're not quite as in depth with some of the messages. And they were written by people who work with kids to help kids. So there's a whole subset of positive messages just for younger audience, we'll say. On and above that, within Take Two Minutes, a parent can sign up for Take Two Minutes and buy a license for their child or children or entire family.

And a neat feature we have is the ability for the parent to see what activities the children are doing. So can actually get a report showing if they have one or more than one kid, each child and what things they're doing. And they can look at the report on a day basis or a week basis or whatever. many of the activities we have allows the recipient to check in, like how are you feeling right now? And so as if a child does check in their mood,

A parent can see their mood even different times throughout the day, how they're feeling if they have checked in multiple times. That's something that's really good. And from advice and input from therapists and counselors, the parents cannot read the child's personal data. So if the child is making journal entries, which is good, the parents don't have access to read those. The parents can go to the child and go, I'm seeing you're using these tools. I'm really happy. Anything you want to talk about, any of your entries you want to talk about, they can try to have that conversation but they don't have direct access to see the entries. It is still a private entry for the child. So going back to things that help, you mentioned rewiring the brain. think on and above just receiving positive messages, biggest, one of the largest things anyone can do to help rewire their brain is recognizing gratitude. It's really difficult to be in a negative spot and recognize gratitude at the same time. I don't know if it's even possible, honestly. So the recognition of gratitude or what is commonly called a gratitude journal is something that really anyone who's struggling should get in the habit of trying to do. Now within take two minutes, I'm going to ask, let you ask questions. But one more thing I want to add here with regards to gratitude journaling. I learned over the years that a lot of people struggle with gratitude journaling. If you're in a bad place, if you're depressed, if you're a child who's dealing with problems,

And a parent or anyone says, Hey, I want you to start gratitude journaling. Even if you want to, even if you sit down and try, you may sit there and think, I have nothing to be grateful for. You move on. And so what I have developed also, in addition to a gratitude journal is what I call the gratitude challenge. The gratitude challenge came from all this learning I've done about people who struggle with thinking of things they're grateful for. The gratitude challenge every day will send you a prompt of something for which you should be grateful. And it will ask you to write a statement on why you are grateful for that. What this does talking about rewiring the brain is it starts allowing someone to recognize things in their daily life for which they should be grateful. As they start recognizing those things, they will actually recognize more gratitude. After a short amount of time, I found in my studies, someone only needs about 10 to 14 days of gratitude challenges until they start just recognizing gratitude around them automatically.

So the gratitude challenge is a fun exercise that I encourage people who are struggling to take a chance with. And ideally, after a 14, 20 day gratitude challenge, you can then just smoothly transition into a gratitude journaling exercise.

Dr. Cam (08:58.422)

That's fantastic. are some of the things on there that just give us some examples of the things that you say we should be grateful for that kind of prompts the kids?

Marc S Fussell (09:09.193)

Right. So the one I use the same example quite often, and it is the sun provides heat and light to our planet. Think of a reason why you like the sun. And so it, it, that's, it's just a very simple topic. gives them one thing to think about and one thing to write a gratitude statement on. There's about 180 different prompts right now. And the goal of all those prompts is ideally not to trigger anyone, not to, try to touch on a topic that someone can't relate to, so they try to be all topics everybody can relate to. And of course, that's a tough thing to do. But yeah, right. But we've done our best to make sure that they all fit in that range. And so there's 180 of them. And ideally, if you do a gratitude challenge, system lets you, by default, it'll do seven days. But you can say, want to do a 20 day, a 15 day, whatever you want to do. And it'll continue it for that amount of time.

Dr. Cam (10:03.012)

I love that and I think when you've got something, an outside source that kind of plays into their technology, they might be more open to do it or you can do it as a family and just say, hey, let's figure out and if we all can come up with stuff, which is a great way to connect too. So we've got the gratitude, which yes, gratitude is a phenomenal way to rewire the brain. I always encourage parents to do this about their teens is find a daily, at least three things they're grateful for about their teen, which can start very difficult, but it changes that dynamic too. So I love the gratitude. What about when our teen is in a moment and they're stressing out and anxious and they want help, but they're also resistant to help. What are some very powerful tools that we can help our teens use in order to be able to get them through that?

Marc S Fussell (10:57.363)

Thankfully, because of a couple of larger companies, meditation is becoming a little more popular in today's age, or at least more people are aware of the idea of meditation. Take Two Minutes has hundreds and hundreds of meditations built into it, but specifically, I have a small library of meditations that are really focused on calming someone down from anxiety. And so, we haven't touched on this yet. Take Two Minutes is largely a text -based app. And so, it's an app. It has a website. The website this was called a mobile first design. So it's really designed for the mobile phone. You can do everything from the website. However, you can also do everything via just texting. a lot of, especially a lot of people love that because the fact that you always have your phone in your hand, you respond to text messages. And so you can, if you have a moment of anxiety, instead of trying to go to the website or find the app on your phone, just go to your text messages and text a message back to the service saying, I have anxiety it's gonna immediately send you back two exercises. It's immediately send you back a grounding exercise and a meditation that's focused on anxiety. You can use either of them, but it sends that back within seconds usually. And you can hit the meditation, sit down and follow along and ideally calm yourself down from that moment. The meditations that are in the anxiety focused meditations, again, there's about 20 and the whole purpose of those is to calm you down. And some of them are some breathing exercises. Some are just visualizations you follow along, but they really ideally help someone calm down from that panic attack or stressful moment.

Dr. Cam (12:32.416)

Yeah, and I think when you've got that presented to you, because a lot of times when parents present it, it just adds to the anxiety because kids feel a little pressured going, okay, mom's telling me that I need to breathe and I'm not feeling like breathing and now I feel pressured to breathe because mom wants me to and it's like, it kind of builds it up. So having something that generates it for you through their type of communication is really nice and having that. we've got gratitude. We do, we've got the grounding exercise, right? And is that the five, four, three, two.

Marc S Fussell (13:00.891)

Yes, yes. It is, it's the one, five things you see around you, four things you, I think here, three things you smell, yeah. I think it's a great exercise. And I'm sure you know this, you've probably talked about it, it brings someone into the present, it brings someone into their surroundings and makes you focus on things around you. And again, Dr. Cam, I'm sure you know this, but anxiety is worrying about the future. So if you're worried about something upcoming or possibilities of something, if you can bring yourself into your surroundings and where you're at right now, that helps alleviate that anxiety.

Dr. Cam (13:37.312)

It really does and it gets you out of the head, out of your head. always liken it to, you you're riding your bike and a twig gets in there and you just go, boom, it just stops the wheels, right? It's kind of like that where it just stops that hamster wheel in your brain. The grounding exercise I use with my own daughter quite a lot to the point now where she just looks at me and she goes, okay, mom, let's start, you know, when she's starting to feel, because by the time you're done with it, you have stopped it enough to be able to regain even if you're still stressed out, you at least aren't stuck in that like hyperventilation, Like freaking out thing. So doing that, a lot of kids resist breathing. How do we get our kids on board? Because breathing is probably the number one best way to calm ourselves down. But it gets a lot of eye rolls. People are like, my God, breathing.

So how do we talk about breathing to our teens in a way that doesn't sound all woo woo and they can buy into it?

Marc S Fussell (14:42.724)

So before we get to breathing back to the grounding exercise, I want to add that a lot of people to it, to make this exercise more impactful for anybody. have to. So what I found is a few of the numbers, especially when you start talking about things you smell and things you hear, you have to really focus on those. And those are the key ones, right? It's really easy. It's easy to look around and go, I see a clock, I see a speaker, I see a picture, I see, and that's almost topical, right? It's so easy to see things quickly. 

I ideally am for most people at least. hearing, hearing is one of those things where depending on where you're at, you may have to focus more, which is good. The point of that exercise is to focus a little bit because that is what's going to bring yourself into the present moment. So hearing or listening, you may have to start really trying to hone in on what you hear. And maybe it's a car out in the distance or a train or wrestling of Lee's, that

Focus is what helps that exercise be impactful. If you make it very topical and just make it very, hear this, I hear that. Well then move on to smell because smells even more difficult quite often, right?

Dr. Cam (15:44.35)

can ever get smell. It's two things you smell. Let's go, it's five things you see, four things you can feel like against your body, not emotions. Three things you hear, two things you can smell and one thing you taste. So you're going through all the different senses. And when we get to smell, I struggle to smell more than one thing. Like that's a tough thing for us to do, I think.

Marc S Fussell (15:51.685)

But the beauty of that is if you do try hard, that is what's helping that exercise work for you. Because if you just pass it up, that's not going to be as impactful as really trying. And the feel one is one I like because you got to really start thinking about sitting in a seat. I feel my sit bone against the seat. I feel the arm against my elbow over here. Right. So you got to kind of focus on those things. And that focus is what makes that really, really impactful. So I wanted to touch on that real quickly before we got to breathing. But for breathing, there's a couple of things on breathing also.

In addition to the meditations that are focused on helping with anxiety, we have another library of breathing exercises. So there are many breathing techniques, as you are probably aware. There's not just a breathing technique. So a couple of things on breathing is I recommend people to try, you know, quite a few of them out of the library. think my breathing exercise library has 18 different breathing exercises. So keep trying different ones until you find one you like. Once you find one you like, you can add it to your library so you can get back to it quickly so you can reuse it. However, with breathing, the goal is to recognize your breath. If you calm down from it, if you're calming down from anxiety, it's not so much just your awareness, yeah, I'm breathing. It's deep, purposeful breaths and purposeful exhales. I find for me, what works the best is inhaling through the nose, exhaling through the mouth. Everyone's a little bit different. Every breathe exercise is a little bit different, but you make very purposeful inhales that are really deep and even audible if need be. then you can make, you know, let out a big as you're exhaling and repeat that. Then focus on feeling again feet. We're talking about feels, right? So feeling the air go into your nostrils, feeling the air go down, feeling your stomach expand on the breath. So feeling those things that again brings you back into the present moment because you're really focusing on something that's happening right now and around you.

Dr. Cam (18:01.544)

Yeah, I think the key with this and across all of these is finding that technique that gets you out of your head and into just the tangibles and the truth, right? Because a lot of where anxiety comes from, it's like the story we're building and building and building, and there's rarely any truth to it. You know, it's kind of this buildup thing. And so now we're getting to something really true and real and here, which all of those things kind of ground us. 

I like that with an app you can just get it, right? So you don't have to remember it. Because I think that's one of the challenges too. And if you don't have the app, one of the things to remember is these are things you have to practice when you're calm because your brain is not going to remember what to do when you're in fight or flight. It's already gone, right? So this is about finding that exercise and having it become automated beforehand. And even if you have the app, having that turning to the app has to be automated because you're not going to think of that either, right? Do you find that as a challenge or what are your recommendations for that?

Marc S Fussell (19:09.4)

I think what you said is spot on because you do want to get accustomed to some of those exercises and not just try them when you're in that fight or flight or really panic mode. Cause it's not going to be as obvious to you at that point. So you have to almost play with the app some first. So you're familiar with how to get to things. And again, I've tried to make it really, really easy. You you mentioned the word app since it is a mobile designed website or it's called a progressive web app. You can put a link right on your note desktop or home screen of your phone. It's really easy to do. You can put a link right there so you can get to it almost immediately. also, again, as I mentioned, we've made it where it's text friendly also, so you can text messages to it get responses. So the goal is to make it as easily accessible as possible. But with that said, some practice ahead of time or playing ahead of time so you become familiar with it and are aware it's there as a tool for you helps you when you do need it.

Dr. Cam (20:01.844)

Yeah, and I think, and I'm thinking in my head too, because a lot of times the kids that I talk to when they're going through anxiety don't actually have access to their phone because the phone has been removed from them because, and that's some of the reason why they are experiencing anxiety is because the phone has been taken and that's kind of their lifeline. So I think it's really important that if you are removing the phone to consider that, that that might be a lifeline. So you need to first decide what that is. And if you are, to have some of these other tools in place and taught and prepared and ready for them if they need to figure it out and access themselves, correct?

Marc S Fussell (20:39.895)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's an interesting, almost like rabbit hole we could talk about. I don't want to talk about it too much, but you know, removing the phone, I get why it's done. don't want, we, in our minds, especially older generations look at the devices as a crutch, right? We didn't have them when we were kids, why they needed it. But these days they're kind of like just a part of life. So removing them, even though it may seem obvious to us that we, cause we didn't need them as a kid a lot of children rely upon those things. That is, like you said, their lifeline. It's almost like their security blanket sometimes. It's just what they're accustomed to having. so monitoring what they're doing on them is definitely important, right? You don't want them doing anything bad or anything they shouldn't be doing. And I'm not going to tell anyone, don't remove their children's phones. Obviously it's your child, do what you want to do. But I think that definitely can add some anxiety because in their minds, it's something they're just accustomed to having quite often.

Dr. Cam (21:33.548)

Yeah. And I think that it is, it's a decision that if that is what you're going to do, that's fine and that's your decision, but making sure that you're replacing that with something else because we tend to just take it and not replace it with anything. And so that leaves your child just struggling, right? Rather than saying, okay, I know this is a security blanket and what do you use it for? Let's find something else. That's why too, we want to make sure we've got a lot of these tools and we've been walking through. And you said at the beginning, and I want to reiterate this, this is about finding what works for your team. So you may go through a lot of different things and your team is just going to be like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. That is fine. Keep finding. Don't give up or something. Right? So we've got, and you're right, breathing, there's a ton of different things.

I like the grounding exercise just because it feels more like a game a little bit than Zen meditations, gratitude. What are we missing?

Marc S Fussell (22:39.156)

Again, just when you say gratitude, don't forget the gratitude challenge. That's huge. Now earlier, though, you mentioned you touched on with your child. Sometimes you think of three, three things, three good things you liked. So the three good things exercise is an actual exercise in positive psychology that is huge. And some people don't fully understand how it's supposed to work. So I'm to touch on that real quickly. Gratitude journaling. Most of the time, I mean, the time what I've heard time and time again is best in the early day hours. So sometime in the morning, wake up, try to write a gratitude statement, write two if you can. That is different from three good things. Three good things ideally is an exercise that is supposed to be done in the evening, so prior to bed. And you're supposed to reflect on the day and think of three good things that happened that day to you. The purpose of this is it puts your mind into a positive state prior to going to bed many people, even children, us, so many people have stressful days, right? And at the end of the day, sometimes you're exhausted. Maybe it was a bad day. Maybe you had problems. and so you're going to bed quite often, maybe in a negative mood, even though you don't recognize this negative mood, doing three good things in the evening makes you reflect on the day and makes you think about good things that happen. And sometimes it's a struggle. Some days you're like, I can't think of anything, but it's little things, right?

someone held the door for you. That was very nice of them. Someone said, thank you. didn't know where you talk to. Think of little things. It doesn't have to be a monumental change, but three good things. Go to sleep. Your subconscious then works on that positivity. And this is what's creating new routes in your head, neural pathways for positivity. You wake up with a little bit more positivity. The studies have shown, and there's been a lot of studies on three good things, that if you do that for just

15 days only 15 days It will have a lasting effect on your mental well -being for four months meaning that those 15 days of Thinking of three good things that happened to you prior to going to bed Because of again your subconscious and how it uses that information you will have More positivity in your life for the next up to the next four months

Dr. Cam (24:57.824)

This is such an amazing thing to do as a family again, right? If you're to that point, even around dinner table, it's like, are three things that were great today? Share them with us. Because when we, the other thing is when we either write them down or vocalize it, it's much more prominent than if we just think it, right? So putting that out there makes it a lot more powerful. And I also want to highlight what you said too, that we often think it has to be this big major thing, right?

And it can be the smallest thing. One of the things I do with teens is I say, just look around the room and pick one thing, just any random thing there, and tell me what are you grateful for about that? Just that, that one thing. So it can be so completely simple. The whole point is it's making your brain think of the positive and not stuck in that negative. Why, and I know positive psychology gets into this a lot, why are we kind of geared towards going to the negative. Why is that so easy to do and the positive we have to be so intentional about?

Marc S Fussell (26:03.605)

There's a lot of discussion around that. And I think it falls back to in our, you know, centuries and centuries ago, we had to be aware of the negatives because there could be a bear after us or a saber tooth tiger. had to be aware of our surroundings because we needed to protect ourselves. We primarily live in a day and age now where generally we're pretty protected. You know, you're in a house, you have a lot of securities, but that You know, it goes, it's very similar to the reason why we are all predisposition to really want sugar, want salt and what fat, right? It's things to keep our survival going. and that negativity is things to keep our survival going. However, everything plays on that, you know, news plays on that negativity to, to incite you, to get you to watch more news or be concerned. Social media is really bad about trying to show you the negatives to get you engaged with the conversation. I think, at one point in time, I read a whole article about Facebook. use their algorithms, took anything negative and put it up top to hopefully engage people to try to respond more. then you're just being negativities being dumped on you and you're playing up on that. And it makes you more negative. Barbara Fredrickson said the negativity screams at us, whereas the positivity only whispers. And I think I probably didn't get that quote exactly right. But the premise is accurate that you have to look for the positivity sometimes. But what happens is, and you talked about changing again, your brains pathways, it's really it's called priming. So once you get accustomed to recognizing positive things, recognizing gratitude, once you start doing it, once you get in the habit of doing it, your brain will just automatically start doing it more and more. And the beauty of it is, and I tell people this all the time, we're not looking for fake positivity, we're not looking for fake happiness, we're not trying to say, you're always happy. The goal is that life's going to have ebbs and flows. Once you have a good amount of gratitude and you recognize gratitude around you and you're recognizing positivity through positive psychology. When bad things happen, you're able to rebound more quickly because bad things are still going to happen. You're going to have problems in life. You're going to have unfortunate deaths. You're going to have grievance. You're going to have problems in life all the time. The idea behind positive psychology, the idea behind recognizing positivity is being able to rebound from those things often or more quickly. So I know myself, I have Yeah, as we all do, I don't want this isn't a, you feel sorry for marketing, but I have a lot going on, right? I'm a CIO. I take care of, take two minutes. have kids. have, you know, helping people and every day there are challenges and there are times where there's grievances. I can usually, since I've been practicing positive psychology for years now, I can recognize when I'm in a bad state, I can recognize when I'm in a negative state, right? And when I recognize that because I'm able to recognize it doesn't mean I'm able to instantly fix it. can't just flip a switch and go, I'm happy again. But because I recognize it, I do a better job, I believe, of not reflecting that negativity on other people. I do a better job of trying to maybe avoid people who I care about just so I don't be more negative around them until I'm able to get over it. And I can use things I know to get myself into a better positive state in a shorter amount of time. you know, everyone's going be different with what that timeframe is. If it's a death in the family, it might take you weeks to get over and that's okay. Nothing's wrong with that. But the goal of a positive psychology is you do recognize it and you're able to dig yourself out of the hole.

Dr. Cam (29:25.44)

I’m glad you brought that up because I think there is this false assumption or belief about positive psychology that it's just everything's shiny and pretty and I'm going to just ignore reality. But what I see a lot and again, I see this with my teens a lot is that we create a reality that's far more negative and they have these they go to the end create stories that are super, super negative and see that as the reality.

And so I'll make them do like, okay, come up with a opposing story that is so beyond crazy positive. That's just as true. That feels really weird to you and uncomfortable, but it is just as true as this really, really negative one. Let's get somewhere in the middle so that we're, because how our brain thinks is how we interact with the world. So we can create really negative interactions and the same person can experience the exact same thing and not have the negative impact. So I think it's really important that this is, and like you said, and I just want to expand on that because I think that is a very big misconception people have. I also want to share that yesterday was the exact day that I had where I had to tell my daughter, she came down and I said, I'm not in a good mood today, just to let you know.

Marc S Fussell (30:40.542)

it is.

Dr. Cam (30:50.964)

And she sends me a text later and she goes, mom, have to tell you this, but I didn't want to tell you in the morning because she told me you were in a bad mood. But I was just like, I'm just going let you know now. I'm not in a good place. I'm trying. I'm going to get out of it. But right now I'm just not there. And it helped because now we weren't triggering one another.

Marc S Fussell (31:11.325)

Right. Yeah. And that's what you said. We're all going to have bad days. No matter what you do, there's going to be bad days. And you just got to learn that, recognize that. It's not all rainbows and butterflies, right? Life has problems.

Dr. Cam (31:15.356)

Yeah, absolutely. I love all of these. think this is about, and we'll put the link and all the information about the app in there, because I think that is a great tool, especially if you have a teen and if you do have a teen that is resistant to your suggestions and advice, you are not alone. In fact, you probably have more people that are like that than have kids that will listen. But if you have that, this is a great tool. Or finding somebody else that can teach them those, Not getting upset that they won't listen to you, but finding a way for them to access those tools is great.

Marc S Fussell (32:01.686)

Yes, and I think we set up a coupon code for you as well that's in your listeners can use Correct. Yep

Dr. Cam (32:06.758)

You did. It's just Dr. Cam. So put in Dr. Cam and you can get a discount. That's fantastic. Thank you for doing that. I love that. So what is one thing you want people to walk away with from this episode?

Marc S Fussell (32:19.709)

I think it's patience and kindness. think it's important for people, especially parents. You were kids once too. I was a kid once too. Kids can be frustrating. I was probably challenging when I was a child. I think just have some patience, have kindness, show love always, and that will go a long way to making them feel confident with talking to you. think love is an important part of it as well, letting them know that they are loved, that you care about them if they're going through a difficult time trying to help them in a loving way is I think they're in for

Dr. Cam (32:52.832)

That is so key. It's easy to love them when they're being compliant and good. It is very difficult sometimes to not that we don't love them, but to show that love when they're being difficult and that's when they need us the most. I love it. Thank you so much for joining us. I really, really appreciate it.

Marc S Fussell (33:01.027)

That was a great conversation. I appreciate being here. Thank you for having me again.

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast offers expert advice, real-world insights, and practical parenting strategies to help you navigate the challenges of raising teens. Dr. Cam, an adolescent psychologist, helps parents build strong relationships with their teens while supporting their emotional growth. Each episode provides actionable tips and tools to improve communication, handle teen behavior, and thrive together as a family. #ParentingTeens #MentalHealth #Teens #PositivePsychology #TakeTwoMinutes #DrCamCaswell

Dr. Cam Caswell sits down with Stacey D. Stewart, CEO of Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), to discuss the critical issue of underage drinking and impaired driving. Stacey highlights the ongoing dangers of these issues and the devastating impact they can have on families. She emphasizes that parents play a key role in prevention through open, ongoing conversations with their teens. Stacey encourages parents to provide resources and information to help their children make informed decisions and understand the consequences of alcohol and substance use. Modeling responsible behavior and seeking help if a child struggles with substance use is also key.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• The lasting dangers of underage drinking and impaired driving, and how parents can help prevent them.
• Why ongoing, open communication with teens is crucial for prevention.
• Practical resources and tips for parents to help their teens make informed choices about alcohol and substance use.
• How parents can model responsible behavior to reinforce the importance of safe choices.
• The importance of addressing mental health concerns and seeking help when necessary.

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

• Underage drinking and impaired driving remain serious issues with severe consequences.
• Parents can prevent these dangers by maintaining open communication with their teens and providing educational resources.
• Modeling responsible behavior is essential for guiding teens toward making better decisions.
• Early conversations about alcohol and substance use should begin as early as elementary school.
• If a teen is struggling with substance use, parents should seek support and resources immediately.

ENJOYING THE SHOW?

Don’t keep it to yourself! Share this episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create more episodes packed with practical tips to help you and your family thrive!

🔔 Be sure to hit Follow so you never miss another solution-filled episode!

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• MADD's digital Power of Parents handbook

EPISODE CHAPTERS

• 00:00 Introduction and the Importance of Prevention
• 03:39 The Disconnect Between Knowledge and Action
• 06:34 Starting the Conversation Early
• 11:31 Continuing the Conversation and Reinforcing the Dangers
• 18:39 Creating a Plan for Safe Transportation
• 26:27 Modeling Responsible Behavior and Addressing Mental Health

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Stacey D. Stewart

• Website: MADD Website
• Instagram: @MADDNational
• Facebook: MADD Official Facebook
• LinkedIn: Stacey D. Stewart LinkedIn
• X (Twitter): @MADDOnline
• YouTube: MADD YouTube Channel
• TikTok: @MADDNational

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT  

Dr. Cam (00:01.026)

The thought of your teen making a life -altering mistake because of alcohol is terrifying. We know that underage drinking can lead to devastating consequences, from impaired driving accidents to the dangerous combination of alcohol with other drugs. But here's the thing, these tragedies are entirely preventable. To help us navigate these tough topics, I am joined by Stacey D. Stewart, CEO of Mothers Against Drunk Driving or MADD. Stacey is going to share how we as parents can address these fears take action and keep our teens safe from the dangers of drinking and driving. Stacey, welcome to the show.

Stacey D. Stewart (00:37.837)

Thank for having me.

Dr. Cam (00:39.182)

Absolutely, Kaso. I always love starting with a backstory. So what inspired you to get involved with MAD?

Stacey D. Stewart (00:47.544)

You know, my whole career has kind of been defined by leading and working in organizations that are doing good in society and doing good for others. It's my career has gone everywhere from addressing affordable housing and homelessness to looking at the issues of public education to public health and maternal and infant health and this opportunity came up to come to MAD and I just thought it was an amazing opportunity. The organization has, you know, an incredible legacy, has done really phenomenal things and is on a journey to continue to address the issue of Indian Peer Driving. And I just jumped on the opportunity to come once it came my way and I've been excited to be a part of the organization ever since.

Dr. Cam (01:35.23)

I love that. Thank you for everything you're doing. That's amazing. Making some serious change in the world. That's incredible. Tell me a little bit about what is the goal of MAD right now? Like what are your main things that you're trying to accomplish?

Stacey D. Stewart (01:51.034)

So the main goal is to end impaired driving, meaning ending drunk and drug driving. And unfortunately for a lot of people, I think maybe because of some of the success that Matt has had over almost 45 years, a lot of people think that that issue has gone away or we've dealt with it. Some people say, well, we have ride share, we have Uber and ride share alternatives. So why would anyone get behind a wheel and drive? And unfortunately it still happens. In fact, based on the latest statistics,

Over 13 ,000 people died as a result of impaired driving crashes. And about every, almost every 90 seconds, someone is either being injured or killed in an impaired driving crash. And so we still have a major issue for, in this country. And in fact, even though we have seen a 50 % decline in fatalities from the beginning of MADS getting started until just before the...

Stacey D. Stewart (02:49.69)

pandemic, during the pandemic, we saw an upswing. So from 2019 to 2022, we saw an increase in fatalities of over 30%. So we began going in the wrong direction. And that's why, Mad, we're, you know, very, very focused on doubling down to make sure that we build awareness around the dangers of, of drinking and, using substances behind the wheel. We also are making sure that young people understand the dangers of underage drinking because we know that underage drinking and substance use can lead to a greater chance of becoming involved in an impaired driving crash. So these are just really important issues that we have to continue to focus on and we can't let up the focus because, you know, frankly, if we do, more people die or get injured and none of us wants that.

Dr. Cam (03:39.638)

Yeah, I think as parents, we're very well aware of this, right? And when our kids are going out and they're even before they're driving and their friends are driving, we're already terrified enough, right? I think our kids also know, but there's a disconnect between what they know and what they do. And there's also a disconnect of what we know and what our kids will hear from us, right? And what they believe from us.

So I think that's the biggest thing as parents that we're worried about is how do we convey the severity of it without terrifying them, but also how do we do it in a way where we're teaching them to make good decisions, even when there's peer pressure and they don't want to be the weird person that says, I'm not going to take the ride or no, I'm not drinking. I throw a lot at you because there's a lot.

Stacey D. Stewart (04:31.246)

Right. No, that's it. Yeah, no, no, no. It's but you're you're asking all the right questions and touching all the right issues. And I think, you know, Ed Madd, one of the things that we do is provide a lot of information and resources to parents so that parents know how to talk to their kids around the dangers of underage drinking and substance use and then what that can mean in terms of becoming involved in an impaired driving crash. I think it's really important to level set, you know, about There are about 4 ,300 deaths attributed each year to underage drinking in this country. And when you look at, in fact, based on data as of 2021, about 27 % of drivers between the ages of 15 and 20 were killed in traffic crashes and had alcohol present in their system. And so it's really important to understand that these are really serious issues and that if we don't talk to our kids, as soon as we're ready to have that conversation and they're ready to have the conversation, which can be as early as even elementary school, middle school, but certainly by high school, we could be doing our kids a disservice because if they're not engaged in a very positive conversation with their parents, who we know parents are the most influential adults in a kid's life, they may being influenced by some of the wrong things to your point around peer pressure becomes very intense the older that young people get certainly through high school, middle school and high school and into college. so creating those healthy habits is something that's really important. And that's why we created the Power Parents Handbook which is available at mad .org our website. It's available to give parents those tools that they need to know how to talk to kids in healthy and positive ways so that kids understand how to make good decisions and how to make sure that they stay as safe as possible and keep others safe as well.

Dr. Cam (06:34.502)

Yeah, I looked through that. It's beautifully done too. It's really, really cool resource. So I will put the link there and I encourage parents to look at that. Let's pull out a few things. Let's say we've got a tween now, right? So they're not driving yet. Hopefully, well, chances are now they might be starting to be introduced to alcohol. How do we start that conversation at that age? What are some things parents can say or do to really build so that we can build upon that. I'll take it older.

Stacey D. Stewart (07:06.426)

So I think one of the things that the Hamburg tribes have point out is that it's not even what we say, it's also how we say it. So there are certain kinds of parenting styles and approaches that tend to get young people listening and hearing the message that we have to convey, right? You know, some parents, and this is no judgment on parents at all, because we're all just human beings and we're all just trying to do our best, right?

But sometimes that more authoritarian style of like, do what I say and sort of pound the message into the kid and hope they, you know, just kind of seeps into their brain or gets pounded into the brain may work for some kids, but for a lot of kids, it's not proven to be always effective. Or the kind of laissez faire, you know, they'll get it. it'll be fine. And trying to taking it for granted that things will just be okay and I don't really need to be proactive is also probably not the right approach. So the right approach is, you know, I mean, think every parent kind of knows when their kid might be coming into situations where they might be introduced to alcohol or substances. Certainly by middle school and high school, it's really important to kind of sit down with your kids and with a very positive approach, you know, really in a way that's assuming that you trust your young people to make good judgments. Are you know, smart, are growing, you know, young people and want to be independent at the same time. It's really important for parents to understand there is a role for you to be able to say, to help young people understand that substances and alcohol is a substance can be dangerous and to explain how those things can be dangerous, how those things can impair one's judgment, how they can impair your response time and how It's okay when a lot of other kids are doing certain activities. It's really okay to make a choice to say not or to call for help or to reach out for help when you feel like you're in a situation where you may not be able to, you know, get home safely or, or you may be forced to make a decision that you don't want to. It's keeping the communication lines open, making sure that kids and young people know it's really okay to come to the parent, even if you think you've made a mistake.

Even if you think that you're doing something that could be dangerous down the road never hesitating to bring that forward so making sure that those lines of communication are always open I always am amazed at how parents sometimes Will make the decision well Mike I have a bunch of kids over I'm okay if they all drink when I'm here because I'm looking out over them But I just don't want kids going out and drinking well if kids are at your house, then someone else's kid is out drinking at your house. And, you know, the issue for a lot of young people is once they leave the house and they're involved, engaged in some behavior that could be very dangerous for them, you know, how do we make sure that they get home safely? And even though we know that kids are not supposed to be drinking and using substances under the age of 21, they still do. And it still happens It's our responsibility as parents to make sure that not only our kids, but other people's kids are safe too. And we have that responsibility to ourselves and to others.

Dr. Cam (10:33.024)

That is so true and it's such a good point that we're like, well, we're keeping them safe, but you're right. I'm not trusting somebody else to keep my kids safe, so I don't want, they don't need to trust me either. And I think it sends a mixed message too going, it's okay to drink now, but not here. And so that's confusing. let's say we've got, and I see this a lot in my practice. We've got kids that are using substances, they're either drinking or they're smoking. They are doing their very best to hide it from their parents because they know their parents don't want them to and their parents have told them not to do it, but it doesn't change them. It doesn't make them not do it, right? In fact, it just makes them very sneaky about doing it. And so then they make choices. So what do we do if we're in this situation and we find out that our child has been hiding that they've been drinking or doing substances? How do we respond to that when they clearly don't have trust in us enough to tell us?

Stacey D. Stewart (11:31.908)

Yeah, well, you know, those are tough and those happen all the time. And those are situations that so many of us have found ourselves in where we have to confront a young person about their behavior. you know, I think this is one of the things that's really important is this conversation isn't just a one time thing. It's something that should be done, you know, continuously and continuously using opportunities to engage in those conversations. You know, sometimes it's helpful. you know, if you are aware that your young person might be using substances or may be involved in some behavior, it's just to go back to those reminders of what we talked about and how this could be dangerous and just continuing to reinforce those messages. Continuing to reinforce that this isn't about punishment necessarily, although sometimes that may be appropriate given the situation and that's for every parent to decide how they want to do that.

But I do think it's really important to make sure that young people don't feel like there's some sort of punitive consequence necessarily if they just have made a mistake. However, at the same time, they do need to understand that even one mistake can lead to a life altering consequence, either for them or for someone else. So there's a real balance between, look, I understand you may make a mistake here, something may have happened, but please bring them back to

Remember what your options are remember that you don't have to do this remember that and this is another important point is that I think it's really important to understand that some kids are using substances or alcohol because of You know peer pressure things like that. Some kids are really dealing with Actual legitimate mental health issues and a lot of young people are looking for ways to cope with those things and I think it's really important to remind parents that If your kid is involved in using substance for whatever reason, make sure that you're getting them other kinds of help that they may need. You know, that it's really okay to go to a therapist to talk things out or to have a coach. You know, we just introduced a program called Mad Sports because not only are parents really influential in young people's lives, but there are other adults that really young people look up to. And it may be engaging those other adults in that kid's life who you know will be influential, a teacher, a principal you know, someone that a young person, you know, respects and really engages them and asks them for help. Some parents maybe feel uncomfortable asking for help or asking for assistance, but as your kid gets older, your young person gets older, you know, they are looking at other adults in their life. They are looking, they do have mentors. They are other people that they really look up to. And it's really important. It's, you know, there's this phrase, it takes a village. It's really important to engage all those trusted, you know, could be a member of the clergy, you know, it just depends could be an older family member even, that an aunt or an uncle or a cousin who can sit them down and talk to them and get to them in ways that maybe as a parent you can't. And that's really okay. Use all your resources. those would be just some of the things. But I do think continuing the conversation over time and bringing them back to remember some of these situations, making sure you're meeting your young person where they are, right, is really important.

Dr. Cam (14:48.792)

That is key. And while you're talking, I'm kind of like developing this plan or idea in my head that I want to run by you to see if this would work. Cause I want to give parents something really tangible here. So from what I'm hearing, if we're catching and we find out our kids are drinking, probably the not great way to address it is to like get harder, batten down the hatches restrict them from everything and just really get into that authoritarian, you can't do this mode. Because when we do this, we're not addressing why they're doing it and we're disconnecting from them even more, which means our influence is deteriorating even more. Instead, what I'm hearing is, let's go find somebody that they already trust, a coach, a teacher, a mentor, and talk to them and say, hey, I've heard this, is there any, you know, can you have a conversation with them? Then in the meantime, we step back and we start building our connection with them rather than breaking it more. I think with fear, we get this idea that we've got to do something right now. But when we get in that mindset, we make it worse. Do you agree with that?

Stacey D. Stewart (15:55.77)

I would definitely say even if you find other adults, again, our research shows that it's still parents who are the most influential. So it is a both and to your point. I think it's the parents really sitting down with kids and trying to, you know, build on that ability to have that open conversation. You know, some parents have different ways of doing it. Some parents talk about the, you know, the challenges they've had in life and how they you know, have confronted some of same things and how they had to deal with it or how they reached out. And to your point, and the point we're just talking about, and finding potentially other adults who can help reinforce those messages, but having that positive, open conversation that says, look, even if you're dealing with some things, there's nothing that's ever too big that you can't come to me, you can't come to somebody else, and we can get you the help you need. And just reminding people, reminding young people the consequences of all of their actions and decisions, you know. We've talked to so many young people who, you know, have regretted if they've been involved with a crash or they've injured someone or even killed someone. And they have to live with the pain of that over many, many years, not to mention the pain that that family has lost a loved one or had some loved one be injured or have some life altering, you know, outcome. What they're having to deal with, which is devastating. And so, you know, I think, again, we can't take it for granted. The other thing I would say just quickly is that I think a lot of young people do not understand, while MAD started as really primarily focused on alcohol, what we're seeing is a growing trend around what's called poly use, the combination of alcohol and substances. So with legalization of cannabis and commercialization of marijuana, It's really, really important. There are a lot of young people based on some of the surveys we've done who really take it for granted that you can be high in drive and it's okay. Some young people actually believe it helps you drive, that it makes you a better driver. And that just simply isn't true. If you're impaired in any way, whether it's due to alcohol, substances, or could even be prescription drugs, you have to be very careful about it. If you're impaired in any way, it really is important that you step back and, make sure that young people understand that if they're impaired, they should not be driving, that it's okay to leave the car where it is, take an Uber, call me, call a friend, but don't decide to do something that could result in something that's very serious.

Dr. Cam (18:39.31)

Stacey, what you were just saying too, I wanna highlight, because I think this is really important, is that you're finding a plan ahead of time. Because if we're expecting our teen to be in a state and then think logically about what the next safe thing to do and how to get out of that situation, they're not going to. So if you've got a plan ahead of time, rather than saying, don't do it, we're gonna say, we don't want you to do it. We're gonna be clear about that. But if you find yourself in a situation, even if you're not drinking, but your friend is, What can you do in that situation? Let's get the plan in place and let's talk about that plan over and over so it becomes really easy because our goal is to keep them safe, right? What do you think is a good plan to do set up with our team?

Stacey D. Stewart (19:24.558)

Obviously if your teen is going out to a party or going to friend's house, and if you can afford it and if it's available to you, taking rideshare to the destination and making a plan to, to take it back is, is always a good idea. And, know, if you feel like your teen, you know, might find themselves in situation where you think they'll be okay, but you're not quite sure, have a conversation and say, look, Just to be extra safe, why don't we go ahead and make a plan in advance? Or as a parent or adult, let me take you and pick you up now. lot of teens don't want that. They don't want their parents around anything. So ride share can be, Or make a plan to have the older sister or brother or someone who they are not uncomfortable with make that plan. think.

Dr. Cam (20:05.742)

I'm gonna come in and get you.

Stacey D. Stewart (20:20.494)

Sometimes coordinating with other parents on how maybe a group of them will make transportation plans is always really helpful. know, some teens may feel like this is a little intrusive, but I do think it's going to this place of reminding your kids, look, I care about you and I love you. And I just want to make sure you're safe. And I want to make sure that other people are safe. You know, I have had many of those conversations with my own children who are now 19 and 21. And so I've been through many years of dealing with some of these situations. And, you know, I think what I what our power parents information tries to give you is just that it's really important to make sure that you are responding to what your kids are feeling that you're listening to what your kids are experiencing. And maybe your kids will have a plan that they would like to offer of how they plan to get around safely. That's always a really good option. So that you're building their confidence and their ability to use good judgment to your point. Once they're impaired, it's really hard to make good judgments. That's for anybody, especially true for a young person. So the best thing is to not leave it to a debate or a default or an unknown. Go ahead and make a plan in advance. We have a partnership with Uber and Anheuser -Busch called Decide to Ride. It's really geared for more adults, but the theory is still the same if you're going to a football game, make a decision on how you're gonna get there and get home safely so that you're not putting yourself at risk or others. And the same is true, you know, as your kids start to, you know, go through teen years and are becoming more active socially and certainly into college as well.

Dr. Cam (22:06.05)

There's two points that came to mind while you were talking and this is so helpful just to hear it from somebody that's like knows all the data and knows all the facts, right? But I think the one thing is some parents will say, well, if I say, hey, here's what we're gonna do when you're drinking, I'm condoning drinking. What I've seen is that when we actually are saying that, our kids are less likely to drink because we've taken all the fun out of the sneaking behind. Teens have actually told me this.

It's like when my parents understand and help me through it, it's no longer that desire. It's not as fun to do. And the other one is to have them involved in the decision and the plan, because if we just dictate a plan and it doesn't address their needs, like I'm gonna be embarrassed if I do that or they're not gonna do it. But if we involve them and we address what they need, it's much more likely that they're gonna follow through.

Stacey D. Stewart (23:01.188)

think parents to again, I want to underscore this point because there was a recent survey that just came out showing that there is a decline in alcohol use among young people. But in some ways, it's being replaced by other things again, being replaced by substances being replaced by social media and other kinds of things that are the young people are using to deal with some of the normal stresses, anxieties, worries, fears they have in life, right. And again, I think it goes back to that point of you know, they, you know, our young people are dealing with a lot, you know, even through the pandemic, think, we kind of take it for granted the kind of, emotional and mental impact that that had on everybody, but especially on young people. And a lot of young people are still dealing with the aftermath of that. It's, it's not, it's a, it's, these are very serious issues. So I think we have to just remind, ourselves that our kids are still pretty delicate. you know, in terms of their physical development, their emotional, mental, social, emotional development, all of that is very, you know, still at a very delicate stage if they're in middle school, high school, and especially. And so it's really important to be mindful of that. The last thing I just want to say about this too is that, and a lot of parents sometimes don't want to hear this, but I think it's important to say that because parents are so influential, again, it goes back to this point of it's sometimes this,

Don't listen to my words, just watch what I do. And we are sometimes modeling the behavior that our kids pick up on. I was just recently with a friend of mine and stayed at our house for a few days. And she said, you know, I really regret the amount of social activity and coming home after work and the drinks and the wine and all of those things almost on a regular basis. What messages that was sending my own children. about the use of alcohol in the house. And I think we have to just be mindful. Of course, at MAD, we're never telling people not to enjoy yourself. And as an adult, you make decisions that you wanna make and you should. At the same time as parents, we have another role, which is that we influence our kids. And if you want your kids to be influenced in the best and most positive ways, not just don't be mindful just of what you say, but what you do think that becomes a very powerful message as parents of how we communicate and help our kids to be as healthy and as strong and able to make the best decisions possible as they grow older into adulthood.

Dr. Cam (25:42.966)

Yeah, that's incredibly powerful. I think when you're talking about how teens use substances a lot of times to deal with their mental health issues, right, to feel better, do adults. So when we're showing our kids that we turn to substances and alcohol to make us feel better, we're showing them that that's how they make themselves feel better. And I think we don't see ourselves when we do this as innately bad because we're drinking.

So we need to avoid seeing our kids as being bad for drinking and rather going, why are they turning towards to this as a solution? And how do we together find a more healthy, safer solution?

Stacey D. Stewart (26:27.876)

Right. And what's the balance, right? I mean, no one's saying that, you know, drinking, having a drink every once in a while, or is an okay, or any other legal substance may not be okay every once in a while. It's more, you know, if it's on a regular basis, if it's a regular thing in the household, what kind of message is that sending to your point? And how could that be influencing them to make similar kinds of decisions in the future? actually could be dangerous, proved to be dangerous down there.

Dr. Cam (27:00.268)

Yeah, it's about using it as a coping tool rather than having a healthy relationship with it, right? Okay. So, Stacey, what is one thing that you really want parents to take away from this conversation?

Stacey D. Stewart (27:16.726)

I think the most important thing is parents are the most influential adults in their children's life and that there is a very important role that parents play to influence the behavior, the decisions, the way that your children grow and develop. Parents think about that in a number of ways. Parents get tutors for their kids to do well in school. They involve their kids in all kinds of after -school activities because they want other kinds of ways to enrich and develop their children. The kinds of things that parents, and I'm of a generation where issues around mental health and talking about delicate issues in the household weren't things that parents did a lot of, right? So I had to bear the brunt of not having some of the benefit of some of the resources that we're offering to parents right now. But I think it is a reminder that as parents, it is important to have those what might be seen or thought of as somewhat difficult conversations. What's even more difficult is if you don't have the conversation and that leads your child to make some poor decisions in their life that could hurt them or others. That's an even tougher situation and conversation. So the most important thing is make sure that you're proactively working with your young person to listen to them, to develop that positive parenting relationship with them to make sure that you keep those open lines of communication, to make sure that you're modeling the best behavior, to make sure that you understand that drinking and drug driving is still a major issue in this country. And unfortunately, it's affecting far too many young people, some of them even before they're even legally allowed to drink or use drugs. Therefore, getting to your young person as early as possible with these healthy conversations is really important. And that's what MAD is focused on to try to prevent impaired driving in the future, now and in the future. leverage our tools at madd .org. Our parents program is an evidence -based program. It's been peer reviewed. It's been studied. It has proven to work to help kids make better decisions and keep our roads safer. So that's the most important thing.

Dr. Cam (29:34.284)

That is fantastic. will link again to that. And I do really encourage people to look at it as a great, great resource. And thank you guys for providing that. think that's really helpful. So Stacey, thank you so much for jumping on and sharing with us. Yeah, it's wonderful.

Stacey D. Stewart (29:46.404)

Thank you. it's so great to see you. Absolutely. It's great to see you. Thank you for having me.

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast provides expert advice and practical strategies for parents navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam, an adolescent psychologist, this podcast offers real-world insights to help parents strengthen their relationships with their teens and support their emotional development. Each episode provides actionable tips that make parenting easier and more rewarding. #ParentingTeens #MADD #UnderageDrinking #ImpairedDriving #PositiveParenting

If you're struggling to connect with your strong-willed teenager and every conversation feels like a tug-of-war, you're not alone. In this episode, Dr. Cam sits down with parenting expert Kirk Martin, founder of CelebrateCalm.com and host of the Calm Parenting Podcast. Together, they share practical and actionable strategies to turn defiance and power struggles into calm, productive conversations. You'll learn how to motivate your strong-willed teen, build a trusting relationship, and navigate these challenging years with more peace and understanding.

Tune in to discover how changing your approach as a parent can transform your family dynamic and empower your teen to be their authentic self. Don’t miss out on these game-changing tips!

• How to Build a Close, Trusting Connection with your teen to motivate them without using control or manipulation.
• Why Parents Should Focus on Changing Themselves instead of trying to change their teen's behavior.
• The Power of Bonding by sharing interests with your teen and asking them to teach you something they’re passionate about.
• How Releasing Parental Expectations can help your teen embrace their authentic self and take ownership of their actions.
• The Importance of Normalizing Teen Challenges by understanding that their behavior is often a reaction to their environment, not an attack on you.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?
If you found this episode helpful, don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode with friends and family, and leave a rating and review to help other parents discover the support they need. Your feedback helps me continue creating episodes packed with practical tips for families just like yours! Thanks for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Don’t forget to Follow so you never miss another episode filled with solutions that make parenting teens easier! 🙌

1. Self-Reflection Is Key – Parents should focus on changing their own responses and mindset instead of trying to change their teen’s behavior. This shift can lead to better communication and fewer power struggles.

2. Empathy Over Control – Building a strong relationship with your teen starts with understanding their world, not trying to control it. Listening and empathizing is more powerful than imposing rules.

3. Bonding Over Shared Interests – Find common ground with your teen and engage in activities they love. Asking them to teach you something is a great way to build connection and show respect for their expertise.

4. Release the Pressure – Let go of strict expectations about who your teen should be. Empower them by recognizing their natural gifts and talents, which fosters confidence and independence.

5. Mentors Are Essential – Outside mentorship can provide your teen with additional support and guidance that may be more effective than what you can offer as a parent. Encourage them to seek out these valuable relationships.

• Calm Parenting Podcast

• 00:00 Introduction: Effective Strategies for Motivating Strong-Willed Teenagers
• 01:22 Kirk's Backstory: How to Transform the Parent-Teen Relationship
• 03:12 Self-Reflection in Parenting: Why Changing Yourself Helps Your Teen
• 06:25 How to Build a Strong Connection with Your Teen
• 09:44 The Power of Listening: Acknowledging Your Teen’s Voice
• 12:55 How to Work with Parents to Facilitate Positive Change
• 17:21 Motivating Your Teen: The Importance of Releasing Parental Expectations
• 20:37 Empowering Teenagers: Helping Them Discover Their Authentic Self
• 21:13 Building a Strong Emotional Bond with Your Teenager
• 25:37 Identifying and Creating Opportunities for Your Teen to Shine
• 30:51 Normalizing the Challenges of Raising Teenagers
• 37:15 How Social Media Affects Teen Behavior: Understanding the Impact

• Website: CelebrateCalm.com
• Instagram: @calmparentingpodcast
• Facebook: @CelebrateCalm

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:01.646)
Hey parents, if you're struggling to get through to your strong-willed teenager, feeling like every conversation turns into a battle, you're not alone. Today we're diving into three ways to motivate strong-willed teenagers. I'm joined by a special guest who's a game changer in this area, Kirk Martin. Kirk is the founder of CelebrateCom.com and host of the Calm Parenting podcast. He’s mastered the art of transforming defiance and power struggles into productive conversations. Today, he’s going to share practical strategies to not only get our teens to listen but also build a close, trusting relationship with them. Kirk, welcome to the show.

Kirk (00:42.332)
Dr. Cam, I'm super excited to be here!

Dr. Cam (00:44.874)
Yes, this is great. Let's start with your backstory. What inspired you to start working with parents and their teenagers?

Kirk (00:53.02)
Our own son. Our son, Casey, came out of the womb with boxing gloves on – that kind of strong-willed kid who fights you over everything. Like most parents, I parented like my dad did: fear and intimidation, yelling, and screaming. But with a strong-willed child, you know this – they’re fight-or-flight kids. You double down on your discipline, and your strong-willed child will push back even harder.

Dr. Cam (01:22.375)
Exactly.

Kirk (01:23.644)
So, I spent the first seven or eight years of his life trying to change him, thinking, "He just needs to listen to me." But then I realized, no, I need to change myself. I was yelling at my son, telling him to calm down, when inside, he was probably thinking, "Apparently, you haven't mastered that skill at 35!" Everything changed when I changed. I stopped feeding off my anxiety, control issues, and perfectionism as a parent. Then, we did something a little weird that my wife hated. I said, “I have an awesome idea—let’s bring in strong-willed kids, kids on the spectrum, into our home for something called Lego camp.” The idea was to teach impulse control, emotion regulation, and social skills in real-life situations, not in an office. And all the kids came, not knowing they were being worked on. It was kind of like play therapy, but outside of an office setting.

We did that for a decade, and over 1,500 kids came through our home. That’s the backstory. Eventually, we started speaking, and I shifted from working with kids—which was the easy part—to working with the parents. You know this, Dr. Cam: we, as parents, bring so much baggage into it. But when I changed, everything shifted in the family dynamic.

Dr. Cam (03:10.34)
I love that. And I love how it started with your self-awareness because that’s the key to all of parenting—the ability to stop and ask, "What’s my part in this dynamic?" If we focus on changing our teen, nothing will change unless we're willing to change ourselves.

Kirk (03:30.684)
Yeah, that’s true. You know, when you're looking at that middle school child who's been in the same hoodie for 18 straight days, playing video games, and you start thinking, "Who’s going to marry this kid? Who’s going to hire this kid?" You start lecturing them, pointing out everything they're doing wrong.

Dr. Cam (03:32.302)
So, what’s the problem with that approach?

Kirk (03:57.924)
Eventually, they shut down or say, “Screw you” inside, thinking, “You're never happy with me.” The good news, though, is if our success as a family depends on changing our spouse or child, we’re in trouble. We can’t change another person. But if it depends on changing ourselves, we’ve got a shot. When you change yourself, it actually changes how your kids respond to you.

Dr. Cam (04:32.164)
100%. And when you started working with parents, my whole philosophy is the same. Teens won’t change unless we work with the parents. Once the parents change, the teens usually come along, too. So let’s talk about that typical teen—the one wearing the hoodie, hiding in their room playing games, and giving one-word responses when we ask about their day. A lot of parents take that very personally. They feel like their teen is pushing them out of their life, so they try to insert themselves more and more. Or they demand that their teen come down and spend time with them, regardless of whether the teen enjoys it. Why don’t these approaches work?

Kirk (05:27.516)
Well, kids—especially teens—are supposed to be independent, right? It would be weird if a 15-year-old said, "Mom, I’d rather spend time with you than my friends." That’s the normal stage for them. With strong-willed kids, the more you push, the more they resist. For me, it’s about drawing them to me and leading. For example, when our son was a teenager, if he brought something up, I would think, “I have this lecture in my head about how to choose friends.” But instead, I’d say, “Hey, Casey, I have some thoughts on that, but I need to get started on dinner. I’ll be in the garage, and if you want to come chat later, I’d love to share.” I wasn’t forcing it on him. They won’t come to you and say, “Dad, you have so much wisdom, I’m ready to hear it.” They’ll probably say, “Okay, what are your dumb ideas?” But I don’t take it personally. Any positive interaction is a win. It’s all about resetting expectations.

Dr. Cam (07:14.306)
Yes! That’s such a great point. And honestly, that’s a sign of healthy development. It’s normal for a teen to be a little sassy.

Kirk (07:18.908)
Right! It would be strange if they weren’t a little sassy at 13 or 16. There’s a difference between normal sass and outright defiance. If they’re calling you names or saying, “I hate you,” that’s a different issue. But the normal sass is just part of growing up.

Dr. Cam (07:39.902)
Exactly. What I’ve seen is that the more extreme attitude often comes after a lot of normal sass and being shut down or punished for it. They get frustrated when their normal attempts at independence aren’t accepted. Have you noticed that?

Kirk (08:07.164)
Yeah, Dr. Cam, do you agree with this? When they’ve crossed that threshold into anger and frustration, it’s almost like they’re crying out, “I’ve been trying to tell you this, but you’re not listening.” They’re not mature enough to say, “Dad, you haven’t adjusted well to my new independence. Can we talk about this?” So it just comes out in anger. Does that sound right?

Dr. Cam (08:41.546)
It's a hundred percent, and that's what the teens tell me all the time. Several of them have actually tried saying not exactly the words you've used, but have tried saying that and gotten shot down. Like, "You're being disrespectful telling me what I need to do." Right? And so teens don't have a voice. Even if they see this and ask for something to be changed, they don’t get heard. They get shut down, and that being shut down a few times leads to this: "I don't care anymore. If you're going to make my life miserable, I'm going to make your life miserable." And I see a lot of that.

Kirk (09:18.554)
And they'll win at that because the strong-willed kids don’t care about consequences, right? So you’ll be like, “Well, I’m going to take away all your video games,” and they’re like, “Fine. I will literally sit in my room and stare at the wall.” Then the parents are going to freak out. It’s not about winning in that situation. So, good. Yeah, I found people of all ages want to be heard. And it doesn't mean we have to endlessly listen to every little complaint—not that. But most of our teenagers, they're really bright kids, right? And I always tell parents, “Listen, they’re trying to tell you something.” It doesn’t mean you give in, you don’t buy them everything they want, not that. But when they do bring something up, I like the more humble approach, which is saying, “Hey, I need to apologize to you because I think I’ve spent the last five, seven, 13 years just lecturing you and just talking all the time, and I haven’t really listened.” And if you start listening, well, then they’re gonna come to you too, right? They might spend like seven minutes with you instead of a minute and a half at night. So, right? 'Cause I’m always with teens, I’m like, “Take any opportunity you can.” Because typical teenage life, to me, is—especially during the school year—they come home, they don’t want to talk about school.

By the way, can I share this one? Kind of a cool idea. So the strong-willed kids that we work with, they’re not always great at school. They’re really smart, but they’re not. So asking them after school, “Hey, how was your day at school?” It’s like, “Hey, how was that day at the place that you don’t have a lot of friends, you’re bored?” Yeah, it sucks. What else do you want to know, Mom? Right? And then the next question is, “Well, do you have any homework?” “No, I got it all done in study hall.” And they just lied to you.

Dr. Cam (10:44.206)
Yes, please.

Kirk (11:12.016)
That afternoon time after school, when you ask about their day, it sounds like an interrogation to them because it’s filled with our anxiety. "How did you do? How did you do on that test?" Because I need you to do well on that test so you can get a good grade, so you can get into the right college, so you can get a good job, so you can get that. So after school, sometimes, complete silence at times can be really wonderful. And if you want to have a conversation, this is really cool to say:
“Hey, you know what? Something happened to me today at the post office, at work, or in the political world. I’m curious, what would you do if you were in my situation?” And now you switch it from interrogating them about their day to listening to their ideas about your day. It’s a really cool thing to get them to open up.

Dr. Cam (12:02.432)
It is amazing, and I want to throw in there too that parents will listen to this and then they’ll go do it. They’ll ask exactly what you just said, and their kids will be like, “I don’t care.” So the reason I say this is because it’s not something that you can just snap and go, "Okay, I’m going to change my approach today," and they’re immediately going to change their response. That does not happen, right? What can parents...

Kirk (12:25.372)
No, it’s immediate, Dr. Cam. All you have to do is one time, and then they should... I’m kidding. No, of course, yeah. Well, by the time you get to the teen years, you’ve had at least 13 years, especially the kids we work with. I mean, they’re in trouble from the time they’re little. They’ve developed a defensive kind of shield around their heart. They’ve been in trouble a lot. It’s going to take time. And I always encourage parents: I’m after the really long game.

Dr. Cam (12:30.052)
Exactly. And everything changes.

Kirk (12:55.26)
I’m after these kids bringing their grandkids to you, right? Because, you know, you work with these families. Sometimes the relationship has been severed and hurt for 13 or 14 years. So I play the long game. And so, look, you change... anyway, I want you to change, not because you’re hoping for a result, but just because it’s the right thing to do, right? And it will bear fruit. It sometimes just takes time. Yeah, so do it a few times and don’t be discouraged when they say, “I don’t know.”

I tried your method and he said, “I don’t know.” I’m like, okay, because he’s waiting for you. He’s going to say something, and then your next question is going to be, “So how was school today? Did you get your homework done?” Like, you know what... An apology, I’ve realized as I’ve gotten older, apologies and praising kids are all just statements of fact. “Hey, I want to apologize because for the first...

Dr. Cam (13:35.549)
It’s a trap.

Kirk (13:52.572)
Thirteen years of your life, I think I’ve sent the message that you’re not capable of being successful. I’ve micromanaged you. I lecture you. I’m always on you about your room, your hygiene, all of this. And that’s about my own anxiety. I want to apologize. It’s not groveling. I don’t want to say, “I’ve been such a bad parent.” It’s just an acknowledgment of truth—that’s the way I’ve done it. And I can imagine that’s made you feel... and then you fill that in.
Like, “You could never please me.” That was mine with my son. “Hey Casey, it’s like you could never please me because I’m never really happy.” Right? I’ll say like, “Hey, good job, but...” So when I started having these discussions with him, he never looked at me and said, “Dad, that’s so meaningful to me that you would acknowledge that.” Not in the moment, but I could see it was like, “My dad’s getting it now.” And it was connecting with his heart, and it slowly began to shift our relationship.

Dr. Cam (14:55.854)
Yeah, I think that is so beautiful because we need to shift our focus not from getting the response we want from our kids. Because we’re setting them up to fail and us to be disappointed. But setting it up so that we are showing up the way we want to show up for them consistently and without expectation of how they’re going to respond. And I think that expectation is very difficult to manage.

Kirk (15:26.524)
That’s good, Dr. Cam. That’s good. We could end it right there. Boom. No, that’s the hard part. But that’s the same as it is for, you know, a three-year-old. It’s like, “Well, when’s my toddler going to start to get some self-discipline?” I’m like, “She’s not 40, okay?” Like, they’re developing. So yeah, I’m with you on that. You do the right thing, and the really great thing, which I know you’ve found is...

Dr. Cam (15:29.884)
Right there, mic drop, boom.

Kirk (15:55.534)
It changes you as a person. All that anxiety—it affects every relationship. And now, especially in the teen years, moms and dads, you've done a good job with your kids, right? If you're listening to a parenting podcast, you're a good parent. The bad ones aren’t tuning in. You've done everything. You've given every lecture, hopefully modeled things well. So now, throw that extra energy into changing yourself. You don’t need to make sandwiches anymore, you have more time. It will free you to enjoy the rest of your life, and your kids will see that. They’ll watch and say, "I just saw my mom or dad change right in front of my eyes." That’s the biggest lesson you could give them.

Dr. Cam (16:52.034)
Yeah, it's amazing when we do that. But I know parents are still thinking, "Okay, you’ve said if I listen and change, I’ll see results, but how do I get my teen to do what I want?" They want their teen to get up and do something. If their kid stays in their room all day, not motivated, they’re worried, “How do I put fire in their belly?”

Kirk (17:41.66)
You can’t put fire in their belly. That’s step one: You can’t do it. Parents, you’ve tried rewards, money, bribery. You’ve tried every consequence and punishment. It’s been 15 years, and none of that worked. So realize, you can’t do it for them.

Dr. Cam (17:43.62)
Thank you.

Kirk (18:11.844)
Building your connection with them is the most important thing you can do. Bonding over something they’re interested in is key. I know as a dad, I used to think, “Let me get my son interested in what I like.” My son was super into cars, and I hated cars. But every Saturday, we went to a dealership to look at cars and test drive them. It was agenda-free time. I wasn’t allowed to make dad analogies—no "life is like a car" talk. We just enjoyed each other.

Try to enjoy your teen. Smile at their attitude. They’re smart kids, and sometimes their comments are disrespectful, but clever too. I’d think, "That was really disrespectful, but well done." They’re smart.

Another idea for strong-willed kids: Ask them to teach you something. You’ve spent their whole life telling them what to do, but let them teach you something. Ask them to help with technology. My son helped me, and it gave him a sense of agency—he wasn’t the little boy anymore.

You also have to fight the anxiety. Your kids will change. Look, I was a dopey 15-year-old. If you looked at me back then, you’d think, "How is this kid going to succeed?" They grow and change. But I promise, the sooner you release them—say, "I release you to be who you are, to be the person you’re supposed to be"—that’s powerful language.

Dr. Cam (20:34.564)
That’s really powerful. I love that.

Kirk (20:37.702)
Can you talk about that for a minute? Because you’re good at this with teens—releasing them.

Dr. Cam (20:44.58)
From the teen perspective, they spend so much time trying to get approval from their parents. They end up disregarding who they are to meet their parents' expectations. So they start doubting themselves, not having the confidence to make decisions or share their opinions. This causes them to shut down.

When we release them from our expectations, it’s like cutting the cord. A lot of parents see their kids as an extension of themselves, which is why they try to control them. But if we see our kids as separate people, our role is to adapt to their needs.

Kirk (21:52.656)
Dr. Cam, that’s awesome. If you do that, then my second step would be this: For the next week, affirm everything your child is already doing well. Just relentlessly. "Hey, nice job with that." With strong-willed kids, keep it short and sweet. "I saw how you handled that. You’re growing." Don’t expect long thank-yous. Praise the small things, like when they bring their plate to the sink.

It’s easy to get irritated by the typical teen behavior—leaving the fridge open, eating snacks, leaving trash around. But when they do something good, even small things, acknowledge it. Simple stuff like, “I really love hearing your perspective.” No need for long speeches.

Dr. Cam (23:29.702)
It’s so uncomfortable.

Kirk (23:48.154)
Here’s something fantastic: If your kids play video games, recognize the positive traits they show. I hated video games. I wanted my son to be outside, but I realized when he played, he was goal-oriented, persistent, and a leader. I said to him, “I’ve noticed you’re really motivated and persistent when you’re on your video games. When you find your vision in life, you’ll use those qualities to crush it.” And then I gave him a fist bump and walked out.

Dr. Cam (24:12.452)
That’s great!

Kirk (24:15.704)
It’s about recognizing the good qualities they already have. Strong-willed kids may only do the bare minimum, but affirm their progress.

If I could give you one more tip: Help your kids use their natural gifts, talents, and passions outside the home. The neurotypical kids get praise for being good at school, but our strong-willed kids often don’t excel in the typical school setting. Outside the home, they can shine.

Dr. Cam (24:52)
That’s huge.

Kirk (25:00)
Let them use their gifts in other settings. And third, hold them accountable to another adult. Other adults see things you might not. They can hold your kids accountable in ways you can’t.

For example, if your kid loves soccer but struggles with school, find a coach who could use their help with younger kids. This external validation, from someone else, can be powerful.

I had a mom ask me about her teenage daughter with a bad attitude. I asked, “What does she love doing?” The daughter loved soccer and was great with little kids. I suggested she help out at a local soccer practice. The daughter was thrilled, and it gave her a sense of purpose. It worked because the recognition came from someone outside the family.

That’s the key—find a way to connect your kid’s passions with real-world opportunities.

Dr. Cam (27:56.94):
Yeah, that's a big difference. That right there separates whether it's going to work or not.

Kirk (28:02.78):
Yeah, so arrange that. They'll do it for someone else because they like pleasing others, just not you. So this girl, Rebecca, goes out on Tuesday night. She's in her environment, around little kids, and loves soccer. At the end of practice, she gets hugs from 12 little girls. When she comes home, does she have attitude? No, because her gifts were drawn out of her, and she had a purpose, something she was good at doing. The coach said, "We’ve got a game Saturday morning. Could you help out?" Of course, she’s there. After the game, two sets of parents came up to her and said, "Look, we don't know who you are, but our daughters never stopped talking about you. They're struggling in school. Would you consider tutoring them?" Not knowing that Rebecca hadn’t done schoolwork in years. But now, she has a reason to do it—because she wants to help these little kids. The key is to discover what motivates your child, not what motivates you.

As parents, we might be motivated by school because we were good at it and got attention. But maybe your child isn’t good at school. You need to discover what motivates them. The coach told Rebecca, "If you're going to work with these little kids, I better not hear from your mom that you're mouthing off. You better keep a B average if you’re going to help me because I’m looking for a leader." Now, Rebecca has something to work for.

We often do this with kids who are good with animals. Get them volunteering at a veterinarian's office. The vet might say, "You've got a gift with animals. You could be a vet one day." And that’s the first time someone has told that child they could be a veterinarian. Everyone else is focused on their grades and bad behavior. But the vet sees the gift. That’s when the child comes home and says, "Mom, I want to be a veterinarian." And mom’s thinking, "I’m not sure you're even making it out of middle school," but now they're motivated. So I’d encourage you to find their mission and a mentor. A mission they can throw themselves into.

Dr. Cam (30:51.438):
Yeah, that's the beauty of having your own podcast. You can go as long as you want.

Kirk (30:52.086):
I’ll give you one more, and I’m sorry for dominating the conversation. You know who’s really good with teenagers? Older people. Find an older couple in your neighborhood and have them reach out to your teenager. Ask them for help with something they can’t do anymore. Your teenager walks in, and they’re going to love on them. They miss having kids around, and they’ll teach them about life. Your teens will come home saying, "Yeah, I like the Robinsons down the street. They said that I'm really good at X." And then, just send them to do their homework, and they'll spend a lot of time with that old couple. It's a really effective strategy for teens. Older people are very grounding for teens. They've been through hard times, and they don’t carry all that anxiety. They can reach into a teenager's heart in a way that other people can’t. They'll say, "I remember what that was like," even if it was back in 1947. There's something beautiful about that.

Dr. Cam (32:19.78):
I really, really love that. And I think it's beneficial for both sides because the couple probably loves having that younger energy too. But having someone who has no agenda, who can purely see the child’s heart and authenticity, and just be okay with whatever that is—it's priceless. When teens act out, it's a cry for exactly that. That’s why they have attitude. They're not just being nasty for the sake of it. It's not like they all meet online and say, “Let’s be mean today.” They’re reacting to their environment. If they're reacting poorly, that means the environment isn't giving them what they need to thrive. That’s not their fault.

Kirk (33:20.925):
Preach it. I love that. I can tell you're passionate about it because it’s true. You begin to control your own anxiety, affirm them for what they're doing well, and then put them in situations where they can help little kids, work with animals, or be around older people. You’ll see a subtle shift. But be patient. They're fighting 13, 15, 17 years of a different way. So go slowly with it. It’s a cool process. My number one piece of advice is to enjoy your teenagers. Enjoy a little bit of that attitude. Enjoy their energy. Ask them about their friends. They’ll talk inappropriately, of course, and sometimes just laugh. You might think, “That’s inappropriate,” but it's actually spot-on. Like, "Sarah’s mom is a little like that." You’re right.

Dr. Cam (34:18.744):
Yeah. And I think it’s also about accepting their language. Just because they don’t use our language doesn’t mean it’s disrespectful. I see so many people complaining about their kids calling them "bro." But that’s actually a term of endearment. For them, it’s not disrespectful—it's them being chummy. Parents get upset, but it’s just their way of connecting. Understanding their language can make a big difference.

Kirk (34:40.93):
It is. You can always look at it if they use it in a disrespectful way, right? But when they say, "Okay, bro," you can have some fun with it. The next time they ask for something, you can say, "Hey, it’s unfortunate, but your bro doesn’t have money and can’t drive. But your dad can." I did that with my son once. But you can have fun with it instead of saying, “When I was a kid, if I’d called my dad bro…” Right? That just means you're really old.

Dr. Cam (35:13.928):
It does! And I tell parents this all the time: You are not as amazing and perfect as you think you were. I can guarantee you drove your parents crazy too.

Kirk (35:26.012):
Yeah, I always tell dads, “Look, you were a dopey 8-year-old and a clueless 14-year-old. You were just trying to figure life out. They’re just trying to figure life out too.” I always tell parents, relax a little. It's like, yes, we have to train them, but remember—they're not 35 yet. Same with teenagers. They're not grown-ups yet. When it comes to toddlers, I tell parents, “Write a job description for a 3-year-old.” It's not to wake up, put on a suit, and be perfect—it’s to make messes, be curious, and explore. It's the same with teenagers. They’re not adults. But one other thing I’d throw in is normalizing the teen years for them.

This is a weird time in life. There's no other time when you’re grouped in classes with kids your own age, listening to people talk about stuff you just don’t care about, and dealing with all the social stuff. As an adult, you get to choose so much, but right now, it's hard. So, if they feel awkward, they should. Because they are. Just don’t tell them that.

Dr. Cam (36:27.074):
Yeah, it's terrible.

Kirk (36:47.18):
Absolutely. Their hormones are out of control. They're not even in control of their own bodies, half the time. Their minds and thoughts are all over the place. It's a wonder how teenage boys can even pay attention in class when there's Instagram out there, with all those images they can see. Seriously. I mean, I don’t know how they get up in the morning and do anything.

 Dr. Cam (37:11.99):
Exactly. It's true.

Kirk (37:15.78):
I didn't mean to be inappropriate, but as teenage boys, we had to sneak around to see pictures in a magazine. And now it's like, my Instagram feed is full of girls with no clothes on. Like that's a hard world to navigate. We didn't have this whole social media thing. It's hard for us as adults too—our friends are posting about vacations, and we’re left wondering, "How come we didn’t take that nice vacation?"

Dr. Cam (37:44.342):
Right? I’ll tell you, I see more pressure coming from parents based on what they see on Instagram and social media, which they then put on their kids because they say, "Well, look, all my friends' kids are doing this. So you need to do it too." Parents, you can't use your phone to judge your kids and what you see on their phones to judge them. That’s a hard thing. And I think the other thing—and I’m curious what your thoughts are on this—I personally am highly annoyed with how much emphasis is being put on social media and tech as the cause of mental health issues. I see it more as a symptom than the actual cause of the problem.

Kirk (38:28.764):
I agree. And this is where I’m not about guilt-blaming parents, right? I’m very honest with parents. I’ll say, "Hey, you're a freak in that area. You need to stop that." But if you have a really good bond and a trusting relationship with your child, and they’re doing some positive, constructive things—that’s my goal with the mission and mentor—let’s just start with something simple. Let’s just take them 30 minutes down to the Robinson’s house one day a week. If they’re doing that, then the outside pressures of social media won’t hit them as hard. They’re a little inoculated. But if they always feel like they can never please their parents, and everyone’s trying to make them be someone they’re not, then they’re much more susceptible to things like vaping and other risky behaviors. Focus on the connection. Stay close to your kids.

And even if they just sit in their room and don’t get good grades, you have smart kids. Once they get a vision for their life, strong-willed kids often just do the bare minimum to get by all the way through high school. And you’ll think, "But you’re not doing this, or not doing that." But I’m telling you—it’s strategically brilliant.

Dr. Cam (39:43.96):
That’s right. They’re working smart, not hard.

Kirk (39:46.588):
Why would they do extra work to get grades they don’t care about? We told them, "In order to keep your screens, you have to maintain exactly a 79.3 average." And they’ll get a 79.3—not a 79.4. But why wouldn’t they do their best? Because they’re not motivated by it. Then, as they get a little older, gain vision, and take ownership of their lives, they turn it on. I’ll tell you, the strong-willed kids have it harder, but they’re not made to be kids. You put them in the adult world, and they crush it.

Look, our son, Casey, was horrible as a child. He didn’t clean his room and was awful. But in the real world, which is what you’re raising them for—you’re not raising kids to be kids, you’re raising them to be adults—Casey crushes it. He’s just terrible at all the arbitrary kid stuff. And parents, cleaning their bedrooms? There’s a reason there’s a door. Just chill. You’re a freak. Own that. And by the way, if there’s a fire, they’ll be able to get out. That’s an excuse. Sit in the mess until it doesn’t trigger you.

Dr. Cam (40:54.39):
Yeah, I know. We are so on the same page, Kirk. I’m exactly the same way. I’ve got the messy room and I’m like, "Do not even leave that cracked open because it’ll give me heart palpitations." But it’s your space. It’s not my space. You deal with it the way you want to deal with it. I agree with everything you’re saying. I love that. So, Kirk, how do people find you?

Kirk (41:13.638):
You can look up the Calm Parenting Podcast. That’s the best way. We’re also at CelebrateCalm.com, but the Calm Parenting Podcast is the main one. You can email us if you have specific issues with teens or kids. Some of you probably have younger kids too—hopefully, more compliant, easy ones. But hopefully not. Because the strong-willed kids will change you and make you a different person. It’s awesome. So yeah, check out the podcast.

Dr. Cam (41:48.576):
I love it. Thank you so much, Kirk, for joining us today. I really appreciate you. You’re awesome.

Kirk (41:51.142):
Dr. Cam, you’re awesome. I can’t wait to send a lot of our teens directly to your podcast because your approach is so great. You’re chill, you’re not freaking out about stuff, and you’re really good at this. Thank you for what you’re doing.

Dr. Cam (42:05.55):
Thank you. Absolutely.

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together.

#theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam

Helping your tween thrive academically isn’t just about grades—it’s about fostering motivation, independence, and a love for learning. In this episode, Dr. Cam sits down with JoAnn Schauf, founder of Your Tween and You, to discuss how parents can set their tweens up for success in school without constant battles over homework and grades.

JoAnn, often called the Parent Whisperer, shares expert insights from her book Loving the Alien: How to Parent Your Tween. She provides practical strategies to help tweens develop strong study habits, take ownership of their learning, and build confidence in their abilities.

• How to encourage motivation without nagging
• The best ways to help your tween set and reach academic goals
• Why focusing on strengths leads to better learning outcomes
• How to balance support and independence in schoolwork
• The role of technology in learning—and how to set boundaries

• Collaboration boosts motivation – Involve tweens in goal-setting to help them feel invested in their education.
• Study habits matter more than grades – Focus on effort, organization, and progress rather than just report cards.
• Let them take ownership – Encourage problem-solving instead of fixing everything for them.
• Support, don’t micromanage – Guide your tween in developing independence rather than controlling their work.
• Praise the process, not just the outcome – Recognize hard work, consistency, and small wins to build confidence.

If this episode helped you, please share it with other parents! Also, don’t forget to leave a rating and review—your support helps more families find practical parenting strategies.

🔔 Hit Follow so you never miss an episode packed with solutions!

• 20% discount for new coaching clients through September 15, 2024 at YourTweenandYou.com

• 00:00 – Introduction and Background
• 03:01 – Encouraging Motivation Without Nagging
• 08:05 – Setting Realistic Academic Goals
• 13:56 – Balancing Support and Independence
• 19:01 – The Role of Technology in Learning
• 24:54 – Focusing on Strengths Over Grades
• 31:48 – Helping Tweens Build Study Habits
• 36:50 – Conclusion and Book Recommendation

• Website: YourTweenandYou.com
• Instagram: @YourTweenandYou
• YouTube: Your Tween and You
• Facebook: @YourTweenandYou
• LinkedIn: JoAnn Schauf

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:00.762)
Hello, parents of tweens and teens! As the new school year approaches, prepping our tweens for success is more important than ever. Today, we're diving into some of the biggest challenges parents face: balancing expectations, navigating social dynamics, and setting up accountability for academic success. Our special guest, JoAnn Schauf, is here to share expert insights. Often called the "Parent Whisperer," JoAnn is the author of Loving the Alien: How to Parent Your Tween and founder of Your Tween and You, a resource dedicated to supporting, empowering, and inspiring parents. She’s here to give us valuable tips and actionable advice to help our tweens have their best school year yet. JoAnn, welcome to the show!

JoAnn Schauf (00:48.354)
Thank you so much! It’s so fun to be here.

Dr. Cam (00:50.444)
It is! I love starting with the backstory. What inspired you to help parents and their tweens?

JoAnn Schauf (00:58.872)
This has been building for a while. I was a school counselor when cell phones first became a big thing, and parents were tearing their hair out. It was already tough—tweens were hibernating in their rooms, and parents felt lost because they weren’t as involved in middle school as they were in elementary school. At one point, I had more parents in my office than students because they didn’t know what to do with technology. Then I realized—it wasn’t just technology. There were so many things parents needed help with. So, I thought, They need a book. They need tools and strategies to understand what’s going on with their tweens. That’s how it all started.

Dr. Cam (01:49.976)
Such a big need! By the time this episode airs, school will be even closer, and parents are already starting to panic. What are some of the biggest challenges they come to you about?

JoAnn Schauf (02:15.054)
Technology is a huge one. It used to be recommended to keep the family computer in a shared space so parents could monitor usage. Now, we’ve gone from that to handing kids a smartphone with unlimited access, and no one knew the rules. Parents didn’t grow up with this either, so there wasn’t any historical guidance. We had to write a playbook to help them figure it out.

Dr. Cam (02:54.042)
Yeah, what specific challenges are causing the biggest struggles?

JoAnn Schauf (03:01.422)
Everything from stranger danger to video game addiction to kids staying up all night texting. Sleep is critical, and if they’re on their phones all night, it affects everything. Parents need to take control, but we also need to think about our own screen habits. If we’re on our phones constantly, we’re not setting a great example. It’s easy to fall into the “do as I say, not as I do” trap.

Dr. Cam (03:48.629)
All the time. Exactly.

JoAnn Schauf (03:51.118)
One little device has completely changed how we function as a society.

Dr. Cam (04:02.274)
It really has. And parents often see it as a negative just because it’s different from how we grew up. A lot of school-related conflict comes down to two things: pressure to succeed and battles over phone use. Parents expect straight A’s in every subject, regardless of a child’s strengths or interests, and they want them off their phones completely during homework. But many kids actually use their phones to help with schoolwork—whether it’s researching online or FaceTiming a friend for support. When we take the phone away, we might be removing their learning tools instead of solving the real problem. How do we find a balance where kids can focus without constant battles over technology?

JoAnn Schauf (05:22.318)
The key is to avoid turning it into a battle. The moment it becomes a power struggle, no one wins. I encourage parents to collaborate instead of just laying down the law. Saying, “You can only use it from this time to this time, and it stays in the kitchen the rest of the day,” creates a feeling of distrust. The stricter you are, the more they’ll resist. A better approach is to invite them into a conversation:

“School’s starting soon. You’ve had a lot of freedom with technology over the summer. Let’s figure out a plan together so we’re not constantly fighting about it.”

Dr. Cam (06:01.442)
Yes! That’s not just teens—that’s human nature.

JoAnn Schauf (06:17.592)
Exactly. This approach gives them a sense of ownership. Instead of laying down rules, ask, “How can we set this up so we both feel good about it?” That way, it’s a collaborative solution, not a dictatorship.

Dr. Cam (06:31.866)
I love that. But let’s be real—many parents interpret “having a conversation” as “I’ll tell you the rules, and you’ll listen.” Why doesn’t that work?

JoAnn Schauf (06:50.926)
Because tweens don’t want to be bossed around. They’re figuring out their identity, what they believe in, and how they fit into the world. Two things they crave most are independence and autonomy. If you just lay down rules, they’ll resist—even if they agree with you. It’s part of growing up.

Dr. Cam (07:31.696)
And if they do obey, they’re either miserable or sneaky about it.

JoAnn Schauf (07:36.526)
Right. That’s why parents need to gradually let go of control so kids learn to self-regulate. By the time they’re on their own at 18 or 21, they need to know how to manage their time, their responsibilities, and yes—their screen use.

Dr. Cam (08:12.016)
Many parents worry that if they don’t enforce strict limits, their kids will be on their phones 24/7 and their grades will plummet. What’s your response?

JoAnn Schauf (08:30.668)
Collaboration is key. Say, “I don’t want to be the bad guy. I don’t want your phone to be the source of constant fights. How can we make this work for both of us?” If they feel involved in setting the rules, they’re much more likely to follow them.

Dr. Cam (09:03.354)
Absolutely. Tweens and teens know their phones are distracting. Sometimes, they turn to them because they’re bored—not because they don’t care about school. Removing the phone doesn’t make homework more engaging. And not all screen time is equal.

JoAnn Schauf (09:44.206)
Exactly! That’s why it’s important to define what’s allowed and what’s not. Tell them, “These are the apps I’m okay with. Since I’m paying for the phone, I need to see what you’re doing on it.” They won’t love that, but it’s about safety, not control. Parents aren’t spying—they’re making sure their kids are safe and using technology in a healthy way.

Dr. Cam (10:39.854):
Yeah, so I think this is one of those fine lines you have to walk carefully because I agree with you. However, how we do it makes all the difference. If it's "This is my phone, I get to take it whenever I want," that’s hard because you gave it to them, and they’re having personal conversations with their friends. A lot of the kids I talk to have nothing to hide, but they feel responsible for keeping what their friends say confidential. I’ve had this experience with my daughter, where I said, "I want to look at this," and she got really upset. I asked, "What are you hiding?" It turned out she wasn’t hiding anything. I trust her, but she was worried about her friends. So I think how we handle the phone is important.
I want to bring this back to academics because it’s really important. We want to create an expectation for school, but how do we do that so both we as parents and our teens are okay with it? If it doesn’t work for them, they won’t abide by it.

JoAnn Schauf (11:58.028):
Right, and communication is really important. When we listen to understand our kids, we get knowledge about how they feel, what they’re doing, and what their plans are. The connection comes from listening, not just from telling them what to do. If we’re always focusing on things they’ve done wrong, they won’t feel comfortable coming to us with issues, like if someone is bothering them at school. As parents, it's on us to build that connection, to talk in a way they feel heard and listened to.
One thing I really like is giving your child a voice. For example, when we talk about grades, we can ask, "What grades do you think you can earn?" Instead of saying, "I want you to get A's and B's," ask, "What do you think you can earn in math?" If math is their strong subject, they might say, "I can get between a 95 and 98 in math, no problem." But if they hate writing and reading, they might say, "I don’t like language arts. An 88 sounds good for me."
The key is setting realistic goals. We can’t expect them to get all A’s everywhere, but if we help them set achievable goals, they’re more likely to succeed. Before school starts, I suggest sitting down with your teen to talk about their goals. The goals should be theirs, not ours.

Dr. Cam (15:14.468):
Exactly. It’s also important to revisit those goals later in the year because it’s hard to set goals before they know the teacher, the class, or the workload. I’ve seen kids who do really well in elementary school but struggle in middle school because the work is tougher. The subjects become more specialized, and they realize, "I’m great in literature but not so good at science." Suddenly, they’re not straight A students anymore, and they think, "I’m stupid." They give up across the board.
So I love your idea of helping them identify what they’re passionate about and where they need to work harder. If they love a subject, they’ll go all in. For the subjects they don’t enjoy, they still have to put in the effort, but they don’t have to be perfect.

JoAnn Schauf (16:26.606):
Yeah, and you’re so right about middle school. In elementary school, kids can often correct their mistakes to improve their grades. So, if they get a 78, they might redo it and end up with an 88 or 90. That can inflate their grade a bit because they’re getting second chances. Middle school doesn’t offer as many second chances, and the grading reflects that. This is a tough transition for kids, especially when they’ve been successful before.
They think, "I was smart last year, but this year I’m not," and that can be a hard blow.

Dr. Cam (17:17.024):
I see this a lot. Kids' grades start to drop, and they think, "If I’m not getting straight A’s, I’m just not a straight A student anymore," so they give up. This is why focusing too much on the grade can be harmful. If the focus is on getting the grade, kids might do the least amount of work to get it, or even cheat.
So, Joanne, let’s talk about how to motivate kids, especially in middle school. How do we help them develop intrinsic motivation without nagging?

JoAnn Schauf (18:05.674):
One way to do this is by focusing on the tasks that lead to good grades, not just the grades themselves. Ask them, "What time will you do your homework? How will you stay organized?" Many kids submit homework online but sometimes forget to turn it in. It’s about teaching them the building blocks of success: doing homework, turning it in, and staying organized. Without these skills, the grades won’t come.
It’s important to reward the process. When they get their homework done on time or organize their backpack, celebrate that. It’s about them feeling proud of their effort, not about us saying, "I’m proud of you." Intrinsic motivation comes when kids recognize their own hard work and feel good about it.

Dr. Cam (19:25.284):
Yeah, and not trying to please us. I like the building blocks too because as parents, we often say, "Your grades are failing; you need to do better." And when I ask the kids, "What do you mean by 'do better'?" they don't know how to answer. Let's look at what's getting in your way. It's not that they're lazy; they just forget things, like turning in assignments. They don’t think about stuff like that at this age. So let's figure out a plan or try different strategies to see what works for them. I'm not going to tell you what to do because it might not work for you. What works for you to get your homework in on time? How can you remind yourself?

JoAnn Schauf (20:13.326):
Right. One helpful thing is for kids to realize they have to submit their homework at a specific time. Once they have a plan—doing the work at this time and submitting it at this time—it becomes a habit. All of these things—doing the work, writing it down, and turning it in—become habits. It’s so sad when kids do all the work and don’t get credit for it because they didn’t turn it in on time. They should get credit for their effort.

Dr. Cam (20:49.658):
Exactly, and I want to add something. One of the worst inventions, in my opinion, is the ability for parents to check grades every second of the day. I think it’s harmful for both kids and parents. Parents start owning the grade, and teachers don’t always update the grades on time. I’ve seen kids getting in trouble for their grades when the teacher hasn’t entered them yet. It creates so much unnecessary pressure and unrealistic expectations. I just wish it would go away.

JoAnn Schauf (21:44.266):
It really is crazy. Before this, kids had less stress because they didn’t walk in the door and hear, "Why did you get a C+ on that test? You studied so hard, you knew everything. How did that happen?" How can a kid even answer that? So, what I tell my clients is this: make a deal with your kids in the summer about what they want to earn and how their homework will look. Promise that you’ll never open the grade portal. Every week, sit down with them—maybe with brownies or ice cream, or go for a walk—and let them open the portal to show you their grades. When they see it, they can think, "No wonder I have an 82 in social studies. I forgot to turn in that paper when I was sick." Then, they’ll take ownership and ask the teacher if they can turn it in late. That’s what ownership looks like.

Dr. Cam (22:56.934):
I’m so glad you agree, Joanne. It’s all about ownership. I see it in the workplace too. People complain about Gen Z not having the right skills, but the problem is parents take so much ownership of everything that kids never learn how to do things themselves. We send them into the world with good grades, but they haven’t learned how to earn those grades on their own.

JoAnn Schauf (23:26.956):
Exactly. When we own something, we take care of it, right? You get a new car, new dishes, or new clothes, and you take care of them because you own them. That feeling of ownership is powerful for kids. When parents don’t let go, it’s scary for them. They think if they don’t manage everything, their kids won’t succeed. But the truth is, kids would probably do better without the constant nagging. Just ask them, "What are you going to do? How are you going to handle your homework?" Let them decide. If they say, "I hate math, but I’ll do it first to get it out of the way," that’s their plan, and it’s empowering.

Dr. Cam (24:34.246):
I love that one. "Go to the store and get this."

JoAnn Schauf (24:39.362):
Yeah, there’s always that, "Can you stop what you’re doing and go get this?" But again, it’s their voice speaking, and that’s powerful.

Dr. Cam (24:43.878):
It’s 100%. I’ve seen that with my daughter. She’s gone from having great grades to struggling, but she’s always taken ownership of it. Now, at 18, she manages everything herself. It’s amazing. She’s better at it than I am now.

Dr. Cam (25:22.63):
She’s had ownership her whole life, including the responsibility to fail. If things didn’t work out, we never punished her; we worked together to figure it out. Now, she can solve problems on her own, which is incredible.

JoAnn Schauf (25:44.3):
That’s awesome. You did a great job.

Dr. Cam (25:46.852):
I’ve been focused on that. But parents have a hard time letting go because of fear—fear of what will happen if they do. I want to put more fear into them about not letting go, because that’s scarier. If they don’t, their kids won’t have the skills they need.

JoAnn Schauf (25:56.47):
It’s true.

JoAnn Schauf (26:10.21):
When you mentioned middle school earlier, that’s a great time for kids to experience failure. Failure is an opportunity to learn. If a kid didn’t study for a test, there’s no punishment. Instead, we ask, "If you could do it over, what would you do differently?" They might say, "I would’ve started reviewing my notes earlier." This kind of problem-solving teaches them what to do next time.

Dr. Cam (27:32.058):
That’s great.

JoAnn Schauf (27:32.658):
I did a workshop for teachers about "second-tier learning"—learning from mistakes. I asked them, "When you hand back tests, what happens?" They said they just move on. I asked, "What about helping them learn from what they missed?" After that, many teachers realized how valuable it is to give kids that chance to learn from their mistakes.

Dr. Cam (27:42.02):
Yeah, it’s amazing when they can do that. And when they don’t fear failure, right? If they’re punished for failing, they’ll avoid it and hide it. But if they can solve the problem and learn from it, they won’t fear failure. They’ll be excited to try new things.

JoAnn Schauf (28:11.936):
Exactly. Trying new things is so awesome for middle school kids. Sometimes, parents just need a reminder that failing in middle school won’t keep them from getting into Harvard Law School.

Dr. Cam (28:27.414):
No, and getting into Harvard Law School isn’t a guarantee of a perfect life. Not everyone is made for Harvard Law. I think we need to focus on strengths too. Not all kids learn the same way. If they took a history test and didn’t do well, instead of saying, "Go study again," suggest something different—like watching a movie about it, reading a book, or playing a game. They could start learning in a fun way. My daughter, for example, if there’s a Broadway show about something, she’s all in. She knows everything about Hamilton, even if it's not totally accurate. So, let’s find ways to help them learn that works for them.

JoAnn Schauf (29:20.782):
That’s a great idea. Kids love learning from videos, and hands-on learners need something tangible to connect with. If they didn’t get something right, have them show you what it looks like. They might build a model. The thing is, kids rarely realize they’re a hands-on learner, an auditory learner, or a visual learner. Once they or their parents figure it out, it really helps them learn in the way that works best.

Dr. Cam (29:53.956):
Exactly. And going back to videos—many kids might not care about what they learn in school, but they’ll spend hours diving into YouTube, becoming experts in topics they care about. If they’re struggling in school, ask yourself: What are they interested in? Are they motivated there? If they are, your kid is already motivated.

JoAnn Schauf (30:30.54):
Right. I had four kids, and they were all different. One of them really struggled in school. He’s a great kid—outgoing, friendly, with tons of friends—but grades were never his thing. But he was an amazing hockey player, and he loved it. He did well in hockey, so I let him play, no matter what his grades were. My other kids thought it wasn’t fair that he got to play, even when his grades weren’t perfect. But I always told them: “You need to do what you’re good at. Let's celebrate what you’re good at.” That helped my relationship with him because he knew I understood his struggles in school but also wanted to support his love for hockey. Parents should think about other ways to measure a child's success, beyond just grades.

Dr. Cam (31:47.802):
I love that. We get so focused on grades, thinking they’re the only measure of success. But hockey has nothing to do with grades. Taking that away sends the message that anything else about them doesn’t matter. Plus, if they don’t have time for the things they love, they won’t have the energy or motivation to tackle the tough stuff, like schoolwork. I see this all the time—kids who enjoy nothing because it’s all work, and then they’re stressed and being yelled at to do their homework. It’s setting them up to fail.

JoAnn Schauf (32:39.48):
No, I agree. When I was a kid, I hated being yelled at.

Dr. Cam (32:46.246):
I still hate being yelled at. It’s just not fun.

JoAnn Schauf (32:50.51):
It’s so disrespectful. That’s something I try to help parents understand—that their tone of voice matters. When you’re about to lecture your child because their room’s a mess and grandma’s coming over, they already know if you’re going to listen or lecture after the first couple of sentences. They can shut you out and look like they’re listening, but they’re really thinking about something else, like a new song or a YouTube video. If you want to make a difference, your tone can’t sound like a lecture or “I’m right, you’re wrong, and I’ll tell you why.” That’s my least favorite.

Dr. Cam (33:42.346):
Right, because “I’m the parent.” But I think what’s hard is we perceive them not listening as disrespect, when really, they’re feeling disrespected and protecting themselves. It’s more about how we perceive it.

JoAnn Schauf (33:57.326):
Exactly, Dr. Cam.

Dr. Cam (34:07.962):
So, what are the top three things you want parents to take away from this episode?

JoAnn Schauf (34:13.004):
First, I want them to understand the value of their child’s voice. Listen to understand them. Second, set up accountabilities for success. Let your child decide their grade goals, and then go over their grades together. Open that portal and hear the stories behind the numbers. Like, “Mrs. Perkins didn’t get the copies made, so they didn’t have to take that test.” You won’t get that from just opening the portal. And third, focus on your child’s strengths. For example, my daughter loved animals—dogs, cats, turtles—she was friends with them all. In seventh grade, I suggested she volunteer at a vet’s office. She wanted to be a vet, but after a few weeks, she fainted while watching a surgery. She knew she wasn’t cut out for being a vet. But it was a powerful learning experience. She could still volunteer in dog rescue, but now she knew her limits. Helping kids find their interests and honing their skills is really important.

Dr. Cam (36:24.302):
When they’re moving toward something they’re passionate about, the motivation and drive are incredible. But if they’re dragging their heels, they’re probably not following their passion.

JoAnn Schauf (36:43.404):
Exactly. Thank you so much for having me on today.

Dr. Cam (36:47.502):
Thank you, JoAnn. I appreciate it.

JoAnn Schauf (36:50.956):
I just want to mention that I have a book called Loving the Alien: How to Raise Your Tween. Every chapter starts with a story every parent will relate to, followed by strategies and skills to make life with your tween much more enjoyable.

Dr. Cam (37:14.426):
That’s fantastic. I’ll put a link in the show notes so everyone can find it. Thank you again for joining us, JoAnn. It’s been a pleasure.

JoAnn Schauf (37:21.826):
Thank you, it was my pleasure. Have a great day

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together. #theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam

#parenting #tweens #academicmotivation #studyhabits

Turning 18 is a significant milestone that brings up a whirlwind of emotions for both parents and teens. Parents often struggle with how much to loosen their grip, while teens may have unrealistic expectations of complete independence. In this episode, I’m joined by Joanna Lilley, a renowned Therapeutic Consultant and Wellness Gap Consultant, who specializes in guiding young adults through this critical transition.

Joanna shares valuable tips on how parents can prepare their teens for adulthood by teaching skills and responsibilities gradually, modeling the behavior they want to see, and creating opportunities for teens to practice independence. The episode also touches on the importance of letting go, trusting that your teen will figure things out, and how to approach the tough conversations about expectations. The key takeaway? Don't let the 18th birthday drive fear and worry—prepare ahead of time and have open, honest conversations with your teens.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How to prepare your teen for adulthood by gradually teaching essential skills
• Why modeling behavior is critical for guiding your teen
• The importance of creating opportunities for teens to practice independence
• How to let go and trust that your teen will navigate challenges
• Why open conversations about expectations are essential for a smooth transition

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Gradually teach teens skills and responsibilities to prepare them for adulthood.
2. Model the behavior you want to see in your teens.
3. Create opportunities for teens to practice independence.
4. Let go and trust that your teens will figure things out.
5. Have open conversations with teens about expectations.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?
Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family! Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Remember to hit SUBSCRIBE so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• Success Is Subjective Podcast: Listen here

EPISODE CHAPTERS

• 00:00 - Teens Turning 18: A Significant Shift
• 06:13 - Preparing Teens for Adulthood
• 09:19 - Teaching Skills and Responsibilities
• 14:56 - Letting Go and Focusing on Self-Care

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Joanna Lilley

• Website: www.lilleyconsulting.com
• LinkedIn: Joanna Lilley
• Facebook: Lilley Consulting LLC
• YouTube: Lilley Consulting on YouTube

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam
Hello parents, Dr. Cam here. Today we're tackling the significant shift when our kids turn 18. Teens are eager to embrace their independence. They're legal, right? But parents struggle with how much to loosen their grip, especially if they don't feel their teen is quite prepared yet to be an adult. So, it's a complex and challenging time to navigate. Joining us today is Joanna Lilley, a therapeutic consultant specializing in guiding young adults through this pivotal transition. Joanna is going to help us address our concerns about our teen's readiness for adult responsibilities and finding the right balance of support and freedom. Joanna, welcome to the show.

Joanna Lilley (00:42.074)
Thanks for having me.

Joanna Lilley (00:50.202)
Well, I’ll say this topic is pretty par for the course for me. What I enjoy about working with young adults is that they do have autonomy and agency, but there's still a significant level of dependence and skill building that's needed. I enjoy it because it’s the perfect storm of how do we collaborate in this transitional period of launching into adulthood?

Dr. Cam (01:21.555)
I love that, and I agree. It’s such a difficult thing to navigate for both teens and parents. It's funny, though, because when I work with a lot of kids—most of them are around 16 or 17—they envision that once they turn 18, they're completely independent. They think parents won’t have a say in what they do, and they’re free. Parents, on the other hand, think it's no different than when they were 16 or 17. As long as they’re under our roof, everything we say goes. When this time comes, those two very different views fuel a lot of conflict. So, let’s first talk about the teen's perspective. Why are they suddenly saying, “I’m free”—except for food, shelter, and all the things they still need from their parents?

Joanna Lilley (02:18.778)
I'm sure it has a lot to do with how they were parented and how involved their parents were in their lives. There needs to be balance. For young adults who feel like they were over-managed, they have this countdown until their 18th birthday, thinking, "Once I turn 18, I’m free!" But the reality is, as you said, they’re still very dependent on their parents. It’s a cognitive dissonance—their idea of independence versus the reality of needing support.

Dr. Cam (03:06.547)
Right. They see the freedom, but not the responsibility that comes with it. So, now let’s look at the parent's perspective. Why are parents often reluctant to let go when their kids turn 18? Is 18, other than being legally the age of adulthood, something parents should be concerned about?

Joanna Lilley (03:36.794)
There’s certainly a fear that once their child turns 18, parents will lose control or their advice will no longer matter. But the reality is, if they’re under your roof, if you’re providing food or paying for school, just because they’re 18 doesn’t mean you lose influence over what they’re involved with or how they’re cared for. As they launch into adulthood, there’s still a shift in parenting. Parents get very tunnel-visioned because they’ve been so involved in their child’s life. Then, when 18 hits, panic sets in. "Oh my gosh, I haven’t laid the foundation for everything they need before they turn 18." There’s a real fear that they don’t have the skills to survive in the real world. It also comes down to brain development—teens can make impulsive decisions. Parents worry about the choices their kids might make. It really depends on the parent-child dynamic, but most parents I work with are very involved, and when their child turns 18, they realize they may not have the skills to survive independently.

Dr. Cam (05:33.459)
Yeah, exactly. So, how do we start preparing our teens? Let’s be real—our number one job as parents is to prepare our kids to be independent, not to keep them dependent on us. I see some parents still wanting their kids to be dependent, or getting frustrated that their kids are still dependent when they’re old enough. How do we start preparing them to be independent but still want us, not need us?

Joanna Lilley (06:12.954)
I love the distinction between needing and wanting. We do want our kids to communicate with us, to call us and tell us what’s going on in their lives—not call us because they don’t know their social security number! There’s a lot of logistical information parents can start to infuse in their kids' lives. Things like scheduling doctor’s appointments, understanding insurance, medications, filling prescriptions, setting alarms, doing laundry. These are the basic skills they need to survive independently. We should start incorporating these into their high school years. If they’re not working, they can volunteer—teaching them consistency, routine, and responsibility. Just because they’re an adult doesn’t mean life is all sunshine and rainbows. In fact, adulting is often mundane and tedious. So, we need to take the shine off of adulthood and show them the real responsibilities that come with it. That way, when they turn 18, they won’t be let down by all the adult responsibilities that come with it.

Dr. Cam (07:55.603)
Right, and I can already hear some of my clients saying, “I would love to teach them these things, but they don’t listen. They don’t want to help around the house, and it’s just a constant battle.” How do we start teaching responsibility and these life skills if they’re resistant?

Joanna Lilley (08:27.066)
Such a great question. Well, first and foremost, keep listening to this podcast for tips on how to communicate better with your teen. There are also objective resources, like professionals, who can help—whether that’s putting a coach in front of your child or for you as a parent. It’s about learning the subtle differences in how to ask your teen to do things or how to invite them into these “boring” adulting tasks. We want to get them excited about it. If you communicate it as something that’s not just an obligation but a skill to help them become an adult, they might buy in more. And, honestly, there are professionals who can help you make those subtle adjustments in how you communicate. If your automatic response is that they’ll push back or refuse and it leads to an argument, then let’s shift that dynamic. The earlier you do this, the more prepared your teen will be by the time they turn 18. And as a parent, you’ll be in a better place with communication and your dynamic will feel more like a partnership. At that point, you’re not just parenting a child—you’re parenting an adult, and they’ll want to communicate with you, not because they need to, but because they want to.

Dr. Cam (10:20.275):
Yeah, I think that's so important, and getting there can be a struggle. One of the obstacles I see with a lot of parents is that we get very laser-focused on what our teen is not doing or what they're doing, and we think they just need to change. I keep reiterating to everyone: if your teen is not listening to you, if they're not respecting you, if they're resistant to anything you have to say, it's not your teen's fault. It's on you as the parent to change the dynamic. It's not about them needing to change, it's about you needing to change if you want to have the relationship you want with your teenager. That’s a difficult thing for people to accept.
I’d love for you to speak to that a little, because I think one of the biggest obstacles we face as parents is thinking that if we change, it feels like they now have all the control, and we're changing for them, which doesn’t feel good either. Can you speak to that?

Joanna Lilley (11:30.458):
Yeah, I literally had a conversation about this just last week. Parents feel like they have no voice. There's a level of powerlessness that builds up over time, creating this dynamic where parents feel like they have no control over their 18-year-old. They're going to totally run the house.
To answer your question, there are resources out there, like books or podcasts, that can help. But I think it's important to understand that having power as a parent doesn’t mean shifting to an authoritarian style of parenting. It's about knowing what’s in your control and what you can do for your child.
It’s about inviting them to participate in the family system, rather than falling into the parent-child dynamic where the child feels picked on or targeted. Like you said, we often focus on the negative, and that creates a negative dynamic. Parents are frustrated, the teen is irritated, and everyone is just walking around angry.
If parents can learn about power—where it comes from and how it can be a beautiful thing for a parent to maintain—it can invite consent for the child to show up and participate how they want to.

Dr. Cam (13:20.243):
Right, we can’t force things like respect, trust, or gratitude. Trying to force those things actually undermines what we're trying to do. Instead, if you see something lacking in your teen, rather than demanding it from them, increase how you demonstrate those qualities in your interactions with them and others when they’re around. That's how they’re learning.
So, how do we model this as they turn 18? How do we ensure they have the skills to be decent and competent human beings? I think those are the two main things we worry about—are they going to be kind and competent? How do we model that in a way they’ll pick up on?

Joanna Lilley (14:30.81):
Well, it's not something that’s going to happen overnight. The earlier you can start leaning into this, the longer the runway you have to role model and for your child to observe and replicate.
As far as being a decent human being, ideally, that apple falls close to the tree. If you’re a decent person, your child will likely follow suit. If you're angry all the time, that’s how your child will show up in the world.
Parents need to focus on mindfulness, managing their anger, impatience, and how they respond to situations. The earlier you focus on that, the better. If your child can observe you handling emotions well, they'll learn self-awareness, which will help them bring joy and peace to the world rather than anger.
In terms of independent skills, we need to teach those earlier. It’s about preparing them for the world.

Dr. Cam (16:15.027):
When our kids become more independent, we often struggle with letting go. It’s not just about our kids; it’s also about us wondering, “Did I do enough? Did I prepare them?” So how do parents start to let go, especially when they've been holding on really tightly? How do we shift into letting them go when we fear what might happen if they rely on themselves?

Joanna Lilley (16:57.018):
This is a hard one, but it’s something I share with all my parents. I tell them it’s not just about them turning 18—it’s about what happens if something happens to you. Can they step up and take care of themselves?
It's a tough realization, but we need to set them up for independence. They might launch earlier or later, and that’s okay.
I also want to point out that sometimes, even if you raise someone well, they might still make poor choices in your eyes. But those are their decisions, and you have to learn to accept that.
To answer your question about letting go, parents who are very involved often feel like they’re running a full-time job—driving their kids, coordinating schedules. When the child leaves, there's suddenly free time, and parents wonder, “What do I do with all this time?”
I actually encourage parents to start thinking about what interests them before their child turns 18. Find activities you’re passionate about so that when your child leaves, you already have something to focus on.
Letting go is easier when you’re doing things that are fulfilling to you. You've spent 18-plus years caring for someone else, so now it’s your turn to focus on yourself and trust that you’ve prepared your child to take care of themselves once they're over the age of 18.

Dr. Cam (20:16.179):
Yeah, I think that's so important, and I love that. I tell parents the same thing: Get your own life. This is exciting for you! It's time for you to find new things, and your teens will thank you for it. They always do. They’ll thank you for not having all your attention on them because that’s way too much pressure, and they don’t want it. But I think when we’re letting our teens go, it’s important to realize that they’re going to make mistakes—sometimes really big ones. There’s nothing we can do to prevent that. And it's okay because we make big mistakes all the time, right? The goal is for them to be able to make mistakes and think, I want to go talk to mom and dad about that, rather than Oh my God, I need to hide this from mom and dad because they’re going to be so pissed off.

Joanna Lilley (21:09.658):
Yeah, I think the one thing I would add here is that it’s not just about parents going out and having fun for themselves. The lesson here is that your child will realize you’re not available 24/7 to help them. So, let’s say you're playing pickleball with friends and away from your phone for three hours, and your kid is blowing up your phone because they needed you during that time. Well, you weren’t there to soothe them or provide whatever information they needed, so they had to figure it out on their own. That’s a great life lesson for them. Hopefully, it wasn’t an emergency, but it teaches them how to self-soothe. If your number-one lifeline is no longer available to them, they have to figure it out, brainstorm, critically think. They’re learning how to be interdependent, not just dependent. It’s an important skill for young adults.

Dr. Cam (22:31.251):
Yeah, I think that’s an essential message for parents. One thing I’ve noticed with my own daughter is that when I’m in the vicinity, she regresses into this little kid who depends on mommy. But when I remove myself from the situation, she handles it just fine. She doesn’t regress, and she steps up, feeling like the adult. There’s not only the idea of removing yourself so they need to figure it out, but also removing yourself so they don’t fall into that "mommy, you take care of it" mode, which is very instinctual to do, right? When they start succeeding and figuring things out on their own, that’s where their confidence and resilience build because now they know they can handle it. That’s so cool.

What else do we need to know as parents of kids who are becoming of age and legal? Where does our responsibility start to shift, and where does it stop at this point?

Joanna Lilley (23:45.178):
I think the priority area where I still see a lot of parental involvement is with insurance. Since many insurance policies allow young adults to stay on their parent’s insurance until age 26, there’s an extended period of care that just exists. Does that mean every 18-year-old should wait until they’re 26 to find a full-time job? Absolutely not. But that lifeline exists. I see parents having a hard time letting go of this. For example, in medical care, mental health care, or anything covered under insurance, I see parents really struggling to let go. But everything else depends on the family situation. It depends on the parents, the young adult, where they are geographically, and culturally what the family believes an 18-year-old should be doing—whether it’s living at home, going to college, or working full-time. That varies. But the one thing I see parents really holding onto, no pun intended, is insurance.

Dr. Cam (25:05.299):
Yeah, that’s a big one. It’s tough when you’re paying for it, and you don’t want them making decisions that will increase costs. But maybe that becomes a consequence instead—if they make decisions that increase the costs, they’ll have to cover the difference. It’s hard because we often have this clear vision of what our kids should or shouldn’t be doing, and we try to control that, but it’s not ours to control. That’s really difficult for us to accept. They are completely different human beings with their own path. I always ask parents, How would you feel if your parents were still telling you daily what you should or shouldn’t do? We wouldn’t like it. At all.

Joanna Lilley (25:55.994):
Hahaha

Dr. Cam (26:01.619):
Alright, what’s one big takeaway you want parents to have from this episode, Joanna?

Joanna Lilley (26:09.306):
The biggest takeaway is to not let the 18th birthday drive fear and worry. It’s just a date. Let it come, let it go, but prepare ahead of time so that date doesn’t create animosity or fear. Don’t give space to it.

Dr. Cam (26:38.611):
I love that. And I think adding to that, it’s important to talk to your teen about their expectations when they turn 18 to see if you’re on the same page. That way, you can get to that stage together instead of both landing there and thinking, We are so far apart right now.

How can people find you, Joanna?

Joanna Lilley (27:03.546):
The best way is on my website, www.lillyconsulting.com. You can also check me out as a host on the podcast, Success is Subjective.

Dr. Cam (27:14.931):
I love it. I was on it—great podcast. Joanna, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate you.

Joanna Lilley (27:23.162):
Thanks again for having me!

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together. #theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam #TeensTurning18

Parenting teens is a tricky balancing act—nurturing your child while letting them go. Every parent hopes their teen grows into a confident, capable adult who makes good choices and chases their dreams. But there's always the fear of them making big mistakes or getting hurt along the way. Esther Joy Goetz, author, speaker, and the force behind the popular Moms of Bigs social media community, is here to help us navigate this challenge. 

Esther's insights will empower you to find that balance between nurturing and letting go, while focusing on long-term, healthy relationships with your teens. She’ll also share what inspired her to create the Moms of Bigs community—a lifeline for moms of teens and young adults who are facing similar struggles.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE
• How to create a safe space that allows your teen to explore their individuality
• Why healthy boundaries are key to building trust and respect
• How to balance nurturing with letting go while maintaining a strong connection
• Tips for connecting with your teen without expectations or pressure

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Creating a Safe Space – Give your teen the freedom to grow into themselves by providing a space where they can explore and make mistakes.
2. Healthy Boundaries are Essential – Establish boundaries that allow both you and your teen to feel respected, loved, and valued without overstepping.
3. Trust Without Expectations – Focus on connecting with your teen in an authentic way, free from strings or expectations, to build trust and open communication.
4. Respect in the Parent-Teen Relationship – Modeling respect, being seen, heard, and valued are vital for a thriving parent-child dynamic.
5. Long-Term Relationship Building – It's not just about today. Building a lasting, healthy relationship with your teen is key for their emotional growth and your connection as they become adults.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?
Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family! Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫
🔔 Remember to hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• Esther’s eBook: Moms Never Stop Momming (Get 20% off when you sign up for her newsletter!)

EPISODE CHAPTERS:

• 00:00 Introduction and Inspiration for Moms of Bigs
• 05:34 Navigating the Balance Between Nurturing and Letting Go
• 09:03 The Fear of Letting Go and Loss of Control
• 13:06 Creating a Safe Space and Setting Healthy Boundaries
• 23:12 Being the Bad Guy and Building Trust
• 28:41 Key Takeaways and Action Steps

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Esther Joy Goetz

• Website: Moms of Bigs
• Instagram: @momsofbigs
• Facebook: @momsofbigs

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:01.297)
Hello parents, Dr. Cam here. As parents, we hope our kids grow up confident and capable. We want them to make good choices and chase their dreams, but we’re also worried they’ll make big mistakes or even get hurt. That’s why I’m so excited to have Esther Joy Goetz here today. Esther is an author, speaker, and the force behind the popular Moms of Bigs social media community. She’s here to help us find that balance between nurturing our teens and letting them go. Esther, welcome to the show.

Esther Joy Goetz (00:32.526)
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. And just when you said that, I thought, hmm, that’s the tricky tightrope of parenting teens.

Dr. Cam (00:42.353)
It really, really is. Let’s start with a quick backstory. What inspired you to launch Moms of Bigs?

Esther Joy Goetz (00:52.942)
Well, my daughter said to me, “Mom, you need to...” She’s so funny; she thinks that I have some wisdom. What really happened was, when she graduated high school, she said, “Mom, there are so many people out there that really don’t know how to do the mom gig well, especially moms of teens.” How can they know? I thought, well, I don’t know if I’m the answer to that, but I had two older friends who guided me along and continue to guide me. I realized there was nothing out there on social media for this stage—nothing. I couldn’t find a thing. I thought, “Why don’t I give out what I actually need?”

A lot of times, our passion is born from what we needed. There’s plenty of advice on breastfeeding and how to handle toddlers, but once they hit the teen years, it’s sparse. Or it feels very formulaic—“Do these three things, and you’ll have a magic relationship with your teen.” I was like, “Yeah, I know.” I felt like my teens were some of my greatest teachers, and that’s the posture I wanted to take. Plus, all the mom emotions. You mentioned the big one—fear. No one was really talking about what to do with those emotions in the meantime. That’s really where I focused—on those motherhood emotions.

Dr. Cam (03:03.665)
I think that’s so important. I was finding the same thing. When parents are new, it feels comfortable to ask for advice. You go to a baby shower and people offer advice. But once you have teens, you feel like you should know, but it’s a whole new skill set. Plus, a whole new emotional package we don’t even know how to deal with. Fear and worry, I think, are two of the biggest ones. Is that what you’re seeing as well? Guilt—my goodness.

Esther Joy Goetz (03:41.07)
Guilt, fear, worry—and I think grief and sadness. Those are the three uncomfortable emotions. We have more comfortable ones too, like joy—watching them become their own people, having exciting conversations, and celebrating things like their sports achievements or academic success. But the uncomfortable emotions, like the letting-go process and anticipatory grief, come into play a lot. And I think with fear, it’s the loss of control.

When they’re young, you think you can control them. But once they hit the teen years, the illusion of control disappears. You’re left with fear and worry.

Dr. Cam (04:49.521)
Yeah, I see this now with parents, especially with technology—GPS, tracking apps, all these things. Parents send their kids off to high school or college, but they’re still micromanaging, tracking everything. It’s all driven by fear and worry. How do we make sure our kids have the freedom they need? Because I think that’s where the biggest conflict comes from—parents holding on too tight. How do we navigate the balance between keeping them safe and giving them the freedom to experience life?

Esther Joy Goetz (05:34.798)
The good news is we don’t have to give blanket freedom immediately. We’ve been giving them little bits of freedom all along. When you experience that pushback, there needs to be a conversation with your child. Communication is key during the teenage years. They need to be part of the conversation, and they have a massive voice in their own life.

My tagline is giving our kids the roots of unconditional love and the wings of freedom to be completely themselves. And the safety aspect—it’s something we have to come to grips with. Can we keep them “safe”? What does that even mean? You can keep them physically safe, but they could still be emotionally crippled. If we focus only on physical safety, we emotionally stunt them. My kids have told me this: “You’re emotionally stunting me. I can’t even make a mistake or figure out what I like or don’t like.”

There are different kinds of safety we’re talking about here. My job is to be a safe space for them.

Dr. Cam (07:23.825)
What does that mean?

Esther Joy Goetz (07:26.158)
My job as a mom is to create a safe space. That means I create a physically safe home—no abuse, no bullying, no judgment. There’s empathy. It’s a place of unconditional love, no strings attached. That’s the “roots of unconditional love.”

If I’m a safe space, I’m creating a soft place for them to land. But there’s also that idea I love where it says, “Ships are not made to stay in the harbor. Ships are made to go out—sometimes into beautiful waters, sometimes into treacherous ones. But the design of the ship is to manage all of that. They’re not designed to stay safe in the harbor.”

Dr. Cam (08:35.505)
Right. They wouldn't have much of a life if their job is to make sure we feel that they're safe. If their job is to protect us from our fear and worry, that stunts them. I see that a lot without parents realizing it. The kids push back really hard, and parents see that as disrespect when, in truth, the parents aren't really respecting the kids' individuality. That's a tough one.

Esther Joy Goetz (09:05.838)
You said something key there: we are responsible for our own emotions. They are not responsible for ours. One of the interesting things that happened with my son, a senior, was that he didn’t want a curfew. I said to him, "Look, I'm afraid when you're out past midnight. I own that—you're not responsible for that, but I have to get up and go to work." Part of living here means this is going to be a conversation we have back and forth. It's about respecting me and the stage I’m in—I'm not there yet. I haven’t fully let go and allowed you to just run around the world. I want you to know the emotions I'm experiencing—you're not responsible for those, but I'm dealing with them myself, in fits and starts. For now, when you're in high school, we’d like you to come home by midnight. If there are any issues surrounding that, just communicate with us the same way I would if I wasn’t going to show up when I said I would. So we navigated my emotions and their freedom at the same time, but I never said, “You are responsible for me not being afraid."

Dr. Cam (10:28.593)
Yeah, and I don't think we even say it. I think we just assume it or do it. We make decisions and choices without realizing it, to protect our own fear, not thinking about the bigger picture and how that impacts our kids. Now, there are two extremes I see a lot. There are people who say, "Are we just supposed to let them do whatever they want?"

Esther Joy Goetz (10:29.294)
Never.

Dr. Cam (10:55.825)
And not guide them at all? Then I hear others say, “We’re being too soft on our kids, and that’s the problem with kids today.” I hear that all the time. So, when people say, “Do we just let them do whatever they want?” What do you have to say to that?

Esther Joy Goetz (11:16.462)
We had a conversation about boundaries, healthy boundaries in the house. There were things related to chores, finances, and respecting the fact that I have emotions, but respect goes both ways. I respect the pushback. The most fun experience I had was with my daughter, my oldest. She is super compliant—she came out wanting to please us. That’s just who she was. She didn’t do much of the pushback. She’s naturally empathetic—always asking, "How’s mommy feeling?" I remember her coming to me her senior year and saying, "Hey, our entire senior class is going to midnight movies, and I’m going to go, no matter what you say." I literally thought, “Come over here and high-five me right now!” I was so happy that she was doing the normal pushback.

So, you’re going to have all kinds of kids. Some will push back on everything you say, and it’s exhausting. Others will naturally want to please you. Then there’s everything in between. These constant conversations about what they really need versus what you need are important. We’re all allowed to have needs in a home. No, letting them do whatever they want is not healthy. Healthy boundaries are where I can love you and myself simultaneously. You don’t just get to be a slob and leave dishes everywhere in the common area. But guess what? I’ll never come into your room.

We have common space that everyone must respect. But your room, or section of the room—if you share with a sibling—is your responsibility. We had two boys who shared a room, and they had their own sections they couldn’t invade. It's not about all-or-nothing thinking. That’s devastating for parenting teens.

Dr. Cam (13:29.809)
Yeah, it definitely gets that pushback. Then there are people who say, “This is what's wrong with kids today. Parents are too open to listening to them, giving them a voice. We need to be parents and just tell them what it is.” I see a lot of pushback on social media, particularly from parents who believe that parents need to be more authoritative. They think that’s why kids are the way they are today.

Esther Joy Goetz (13:59.022)
And friends less, I hear that too. Again, it goes back to all-or-nothing thinking. It’s either this or that. I would say one of the most important attributes we need is wisdom. It’s not going to be all this or all that, and it’s not going to be the same for every kid. There has to be some of both. I always say the “both-and” is much more important than the “either-or.”

We can have guidance and freedom. I can give unconditional love, with no strings attached, and I can also give them the wings of freedom. Freedom means no control. You can't have love and control. If you're trying to regulate your own fear, there’s a little voice inside saying, “Listen, you’re trying to regulate yourself by controlling them.” That’s different from, “Hey, this is a common space, and I’m not okay with this. I live here too, and the dishes can’t be left everywhere. I’m not cleaning up after you. You take care of your stuff, and I’ll never be on your back.”

But I also have to take care of myself and my stuff. I don't just get to go into your room and throw my things around. I wouldn’t throw my stuff in your head either.

Dr. Cam (15:38.513)
I like that. Go a little deeper into what you mean by that.

Esther Joy Goetz (15:43.79)
Yeah. There’s a sacred space, and kids are going through something Carl Jung calls "individuation." They’re trying to become themselves. We’re there to be ourselves, too. We can share our individuated selves, our healed selves, our whole selves with them. This is the ideal, of course.

That means we get to share our hopes, our dreams, and our interests. Maybe they’ll try on some of our hats and say, "Wow, I really like the Pittsburgh Steelers, because Dad shared his love for the Steelers." Or, "I like how Mom keeps everything organized. I want to do that in my room." But we don’t belong in their heads, telling them who to be, what to love, or who to love. That’s not ours to own. Their minds and hearts are theirs to figure out.

It doesn’t mean I can’t try on some of their hats, too. They’ve taught me so much. I never knew I loved a certain band, and then they showed it to me, and I thought, “Wow, this is great!” But they didn’t force me to listen to it all day long in the car. It’s about permission to explore together. I just love that.

Dr. Cam (17:18.097)
Yeah, I think it’s so important. It’s very hard for parents to know where those boundaries are. I see a lot of overstepping into our teens’ boundaries, which is where the pushback, disrespect, and even dislike often come from. They feel violated when we try to change how they think and what they believe. It’s tough to separate what we’re doing to guide them as their parent—teaching them good manners, ethics, morals, and making good choices—and where it becomes overbearing, when we’re telling them what to do. How do we know when we’re stepping over that boundary?

Esther Joy Goetz (18:10.03)
Right, and we are.

Yeah, the whole “should” word. I think we all have pushback against the word “should,” right? Our generation especially. We had that major pushback against the “shoulds.” It was like a stranglehold on us. We don’t want to raise our kids in a way where they have to heal from the “shoulds.” We want to provide an environment where the “shoulds” are off the table. There are certain moral ethics we abide by, of course—things like kindness, compassion, and justice. But I would say that happens by modeling. You want your kids to learn how to be respectful? Respect them.

A couple of Christmases ago, or maybe it was New Year’s Day, we asked our kids, “What do you think our three major takeaways were for you guys?” Believe it or not, they all had different answers based on their personal relationships with us, but all four of them said “respect.” We asked, “Why respect?” And they said, “Because from the time we were taught, all the way through, even as teens, you always respected us.” We didn’t even realize we were doing it. They felt like they always had a voice in vacations, that we listened to them. Of course, it wasn’t perfect, and I’ve had major mom fails still. But still, I love that. There’s that modeling piece. We just showed them respect and talked about it when they felt disrespected—by a coach, a teacher, a sibling, or even us. They were always allowed to tell us how they felt.

And we were there to listen, like, “Yeah, what made you feel disrespected? That doesn’t seem respectful for that teacher to talk to you like that. You don’t have to be treated that way.” It’s interesting, they always respected people who respected them.

Dr. Cam (19:29.745)
We won’t tell which one you forgot about for a second.

Esther Joy Goetz (19:43.182)
Right! They felt respected, even when we made tough decisions. Modeling it is key. You don’t learn integrity by talking about it. Kids learn integrity by seeing you do what you say. If you say you’ll pick them up at 8:00, and you do, that’s integrity. It’s more caught than taught, and that’s a lot of work on us as parents.

Dr. Cam (21:07.921)
Yeah, absolutely. So if you're seeing something in your teen that concerns you, instead of trying to push them to change it, step back and think, “How can I change the way I’m showing up to model that better?”

Esther Joy Goetz (21:26.862)
Right. Like you said earlier—parents need to be parents, but these kids today have taught me more than anyone in my life. It’s about being both a learner and a teacher. It’s not about authoritarian parenting. It’s not top-down.

Dr. Cam (21:29.329)
That’s a big one.

Esther Joy Goetz (21:56.494)
It’s about being side by side, where you have a voice, and I have a voice. We’re all in this together, learning and teaching from each other. But there are times when you have to be a parent. For example, if you’ve been on a family vacation and the last time we did this, you had a huge rager at our house—guess what? The house is locked. If you don’t want to come, we’re changing the garage code. You’re not welcome in the home we’re paying for. Sometimes you’re a parent, sometimes you’re a friend.

Dr. Cam (22:44.273)
Right. I always find it interesting when people say we need to parent, they often mean we need to discipline, punish, and be the “bad guy.” I don’t know when parenting became equivalent to being the bad guy, because I’ve been a parent for 18 years, and I’ve never had to be the bad guy. I’ve had to say no, I’ve had to make tough decisions, but I’ve never been the bad guy. Why do we associate parenting with being the bad guy?

Esther Joy Goetz (23:01.838)
I hate that, too.

Dr. Cam (23:12.305)
Yeah, it’s puzzling.

Esther Joy Goetz (23:22.158)
You just hit on a key word—connection. Brene Brown says, “Connection is the energy that exists between people when they feel seen, heard, and valued, when they can give and receive without judgment, and when they derive sustenance and strength from the relationship.” My goal is to have a long-term, healthy relationship with my kids—one based on connection, not fear, guilt, or shame.

If I keep that long-term goal in mind, I think about it like a crockpot, not a microwave.

Dr. Cam (24:18.033)
I love it. That’s great.

Esther Joy Goetz (24:23.118)
In those moments when I say no, the key isn’t the no. It’s the feeling of being seen, heard, and valued. When they feel that, they’re more likely to come to the same decision on their own. And even if they don’t agree with the decision, if they feel heard and respected, the no is easier to accept. So, long-term healthy relationships are what matter, and that won’t change as they leave the teen years. Eventually, you’re navigating adult-to-adult relationships. It’s all a learning process, and that’s okay.

Dr. Cam (25:15.697)
It changes everything again. Yeah.

Esther Joy Goetz (25:23.278)
If you keep that crockpot, not microwave mindset in your head, it really helps in those tough decisions—like when they want to go to a party, or they’re asking for the pill, or when they say they don’t want to go to church anymore. In those moments, you have to ask yourself, “Is this crockpot or microwave thinking?”

Think about your relationship with your parents.

Dr. Cam (25:54.385)
Exactly. It’s funny because we often think it should be different for us and our kids, but really it’s not. When you have a connection, there’s a difference between not liking the decision and not liking you. When there’s no connection, anything negative becomes a reflection of their feelings toward us.

Esther Joy Goetz (25:59.534)
When we have that connection, and there’s a difficult decision, they don’t trust the decision, they trust us. They might not like it, but they feel heard and respected, and that makes all the difference. That’s the real test of connection.

I also think parents should say yes as much as possible. Listen, hear them out, and say yes when you can. If you say yes more often, the no’s are easier to handle because they know you’re not just trying to control everything. When they ask if they can do something, instead of immediately saying no, I used to say, “When you’ve figured everything out, come back and we’ll talk about it.” And most of the time, their plans fell through anyway.

Dr. Cam (27:58.385)
Yeah, and if your plan involves me, let me know, so I have a chance to say yes or no. I say yes to almost anything unless there’s a really big reason not to. I want my daughter to live her best life, and I don’t want to hold her back. It’s wonderful to see.

So, what’s the one thing you want parents to take away from today’s conversation? What’s the most important point?

Esther Joy Goetz (28:41.806)
For me, it’s the crockpot, not microwave mindset. Long-term, healthy relationships are built step by step. When you make tough decisions, deal with your own fear in the moment so you can make wise decisions with your teen. Those little decisions accumulate over time, like a lovely meal at the end. This is a lifetime journey.

There are a million ways people try to control their kids, but ultimately, we’re in this for the long haul.

Dr. Cam (29:34.193)
Yeah, exactly. I still know a lot of people my age who are complaining about their parents' control over them. I'm like, that's not a healthy relationship.

Esther Joy Goetz (29:41.454)
Controlling... yeah, no, not a healthy relationship. So, think Crockpot, not microwave—that’s my one takeaway.

Dr. Cam (29:49.585)
I love it. And what is one action item parents can do right after they listen to this episode?

Esther Joy Goetz (29:55.118)
I would say find one way to connect with your kid without any strings attached. Don’t connect with them just so you can get something from them. Just connect. Write a note on their mirror reminding them that you're their biggest fan. My one son, every morning, I’d say, “Remember, I’m your biggest fan,” as he walked out to school. And even now, in his 20s, he says, “You know what, Mom? You’re my biggest fan.” And I’m like, yes.

It’s simple, just connecting without any agenda. If what I said about the “self-stuff” resonated with you, have a conversation. Tell them, “I heard this podcast today, and they said this and this. I was just wondering what you thought about it.” My favorite way to connect is sending random notes—texts, TikToks, whatever I can do—to say one thing I’m thankful for, whether it's about them, something they’ve done lately, or how they’ve made me feel. Not tied to anything specific. Not, “Thank you for the flowers on Mother’s Day,” just, “Thank you for being you.” That’s just one way to connect without any strings attached, without any “mom agenda.”

Dr. Cam (31:23.697)
That means not getting mad if they don’t respond back. If you get mad that they didn’t respond, that shows strings.

Esther Joy Goetz (31:32.494)
Exactly. No strings, one-way connection.

Dr. Cam (31:36.849)
Yeah, that’s a hard one for a lot of parents because they think, “I do all this. I deserve this.” But it’s not your kid’s responsibility. It just isn’t. And when you keep doing it enough and building that connection, you get a lot of it in return. My daughter tells me every day, “You’re my biggest fan.” So it goes both ways, but it takes constant building and trust.

Esther Joy Goetz (31:57.912)
Yes, exactly.

Dr. Cam (32:06.446)
Esther, how can people find you?

Esther Joy Goetz (32:06.446)
I’m on Instagram and Facebook as @MomsOfBiggs. My website is EstherJoyGoetz.com/moms-of-biggs, where I have all my resources. It’s a catch-all for everything I do, but you’ll find "Moms of Biggs" in the menu. I’ve written a book called Moms Never Stop Momming with a co-author. We also have a collaborative book coming out in the fall called Moms Never Stop Worrying and Being Brave at the Same Time, releasing in the fall of 2024. I also have a program called Roots and Wings for moms whose kids are transitioning to college, and it’s available for sale right now.

Dr. Cam (32:47.761)
Excellent, we will put links everywhere in the show notes so people can find all of that. Esther, thank you so much for joining us today. This was fun.

Esther Joy Goetz (32:54.126)
Thank you!

ABOUT THE SHOW
The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together. #theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam

#ParentingTeens #MomsOfBigs #Teenagers

Is your bathroom a battleground when it comes to your teenager’s hygiene? On one hand, we struggle to get our teen sons to simply wash their face, while on the other, we grapple with curbing our daughters’ complex beauty routines (seriously, are all those serums necessary?). That's why I’m thrilled to have Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness with us today!

Dr. Maguiness is a double board-certified pediatric dermatologist, a mom of two tween boys (so she gets it firsthand), and the co-founder of Stryke Club, a personal care and hygiene brand designed specifically for boys. Dr. Maguiness is here to help us navigate the often confusing and challenging world of teenage hygiene, giving us the tools to support our teens’ skincare routines and foster healthy habits.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How teenagers' independence and busy schedules impact their hygiene habits
• The essentials of a simple yet effective skincare routine for both boys and girls
• Why parents should model skincare habits to help their teens adopt healthy habits
• The truth about overcomplicating teen skincare, and how to simplify routines • How to use pimple patches to promote healing and prevent acne picking

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Teenagers often resist hygiene routines due to their desire for independence and packed schedules, so finding a balance is key.
2. Modeling good skincare habits and offering the right products is one of the most effective ways to help your teen maintain their hygiene.
3. For boys, a basic skincare routine involving a gentle cleanser, moisturizer, and sunscreen is all they need to keep their skin healthy.
4. For girls, it's important to avoid overcomplicating skincare—keep it simple with a gentle cleanser, moisturizer, and sunscreen.
5. Pimple patches can help teens avoid picking at their acne, promote healing, and are a helpful addition to any skincare routine.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?
Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family! Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Remember to hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• FREE Guide: Dr. Cam’s 10 Pro Tips for Raising Teens
• Stryke Club: Skin Care for Teens

Basic Skin Care Products for Teens:

• Gentle cleanser (fragrance-free, hypoallergenic) like Cetaphil Face Wash
• Facial Moisturizer (fragrance-free hypoallergenic, non-comedogenic) like Neutrogena Fragrance Free Daily Facial Moisturizer
• Sunscreen (SPF 30 or greater)
• Cleansing Wipes like Stryke Club’s Wipe Out

Extra Products That Won’t Harm Sensitive Teen Skin:

• Hyaluronic Acid Serum like Cerave
• Hypochlorous Acid Spray like Tower 28 SOS Daily Rescue Facial Spray for Sensitive Skin

Acne Skin Care Products:

• Adapalene Treatment like Differin Acne Treatment Gel
• Benzoyl Peroxide Acne Treatment Medication like Neutrogena Rapid Clear Stubborn Acne Spot
• Hypochlorite-based cleanser like CeraVe Hydrating Facial Cleanser
• Hydrochlorite patches like Mighty Patch™

EPISODE CHAPTERS:

• 00:00 Introduction and Background
• 02:53 Teenage Hygiene and Self-Care
• 08:21 Gender Differences in Skincare
• 14:41 Simplifying Skincare for Boys
• 25:21 The Benefits of Pimple Patches
• 29:47 Destigmatizing Skincare for Teens

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness

• Website: Stryke Club
• Instagram: @strykclub
• Facebook: Stryke Club
• Twitter: @DrSheilaghMD

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:02.71)
Hello parents, Dr. Cam here. Is your bathroom a battleground when it comes to your teenager's hygiene? On one hand, we struggle to get our teen sons to simply wash their face, while on the other, we grapple with curbing our daughters' complex beauty routines. Like seriously, are all those serums necessary? That's why I'm thrilled to have Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness with us today. Dr. Maguiness is a double board-certified pediatric dermatologist, a mom of two tween boys, so she understands the struggles firsthand, and the co-founder of Strike Club, a personal care and hygiene brand designed specifically for boys. Dr. Maguiness is here to help us navigate the often confusing and challenging world of teenage hygiene. Dr. Maguiness, welcome to the show.

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (00:48.077)
Thank you for having me, Dr. Cam. We have a lot to talk about today.

Dr. Cam (00:51.254)
We do. So, I want to first get into the background. What inspired you to specialize in pediatric dermatology?

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (01:01.853)
I always knew that I wanted to work with children. I'm actually Canadian. I grew up in Toronto. When I was in medical school, I was fascinated with dermatology, pursued it, but knew kids were where it was at for me. I found a mentor in pediatric dermatology, which led me to San Francisco to do a fellowship at UCSF.

Then, I met my partner, and now we're in Minneapolis, where I have a large academic practice at the University of Minnesota. But yes, the skin of kids, I mean, what could be better? Baby skin all day, but not to discount the teens, because I love my adolescent patients too.

Dr. Cam (01:46.422)
Talk about skin issues. That's when it all goes awry, isn't it?

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (01:52.589)
It is. All those surging hormones are changing everything, but the skin isn't quite fully mature yet. There’s lots to discuss, and it's a great conversation to have with your teen about hygiene and self-care to get those habits going early.

Dr. Cam (02:10.678)
I want to talk about this because you have two tween boys. You're in the thick of it. Why do they not like hygiene? I’m brushing with broad strokes here, but really, why?

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (02:21.677)
My goodness.
Teens are busy. They’re figuring things out and really want to assert their independence. Something you probably see a lot. Up until the age of six or even seven, it’s the parents telling them to take a bath, and helping them do it. The parents have control over the bathing routine. But suddenly, in those tween years, your child might skip a day or two because they have practice or are busy. Then, you say, "You need to take a shower tonight."

But then, your child disappears into the bathroom, and you wonder, are they really clean? What’s happening in there? We don’t know. And that’s the case for all tweens and teens. There’s just this general desire for independence.

But something interesting is happening. If you’ve been following the news lately, you’ll know that there's a growing trend where girls and boys are doing different things when it comes to skincare, hygiene, and self-care. I think these are topics we can really dig into today.

Dr. Cam (03:41.238)
Yeah, I mean, teens... what I see, and again, I don’t want to stereotype, but I see this so frequently that I feel comfortable generalizing. Parents come in frustrated because they have to nag their sons to brush their teeth, wash their face, take a shower. They smell, and the only thing they do is spray body spray all over themselves, thinking that’s cleaning. So now we have sweat mixed with Axe body spray, and... then their skin starts to break out. I know there’s a push for independence, but there's also this battle between parents trying to help their kids stay clean and not smell ripe, and the kids just...

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (04:14.605)
And then a rash will start for sure.

Dr. Cam (04:35.51)
It’s almost like they fight back about it. Can you help us understand that a little better and how we can encourage them to stay clean?

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (04:45.837)
I don’t think you’re stereotyping at all. This is something not only parents are noticing, but I’ve noticed it too in my own clinical practice. When kids come in with skin problems, and often it’s acne, the girls tend to be more compliant with treatments than the boys. So let’s unpack that a little bit.

What’s happening here? Well, let’s think about your own home and what’s being modeled. A lot of times, it’s the moms who have their own skincare routines—cleansers, moisturizers, makeup, grooming. There’s a lot of modeling that moms do regarding self-care, which kids, both boys and girls, pick up on.

But the girls, in particular, see this and start to understand it’s a normal, accepted behavior to care for your skin and hygiene. On the other hand, boys see their moms engaging in these self-care practices, but they may not see the same from their dads. There's a gap in what’s modeled for girls versus boys.

I think it’s a great opportunity for parents to step in and open a discussion about hygiene and self-care for boys. We need to give them the tools they need and show them what to do. There’s been some stigma surrounding boys and hygiene, like they’re just supposed to know how to take care of themselves. But if you step back, girls are seeing this modeled by their moms. Maybe moms and dads haven’t had that same conversation with their sons. That’s how I’ve been thinking about it in the last few years, as I’ve seen these trends emerging.

Dr. Cam (07:09.046)
It makes so much sense. I mean, even just thinking about TikTok, you know, there are tons of TikTok creators showing makeup and skincare routines for girls. But I’ve never seen a single one for boys. That’s just not out there.

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (07:25.581)
Not really. There are some trends coming out, especially around fragrance. You mentioned Axe body spray. There’s this “smell maxing” trend, where boys really want to smell good and buy fancy colognes. But it’s a bit different from what we’re talking about.

I do think there’s interest. This is the selfie generation—the kids who grew up with social media, digital cameras everywhere, and phones in their pockets. So, on one hand, there’s all this content being created and consumed by girls. But the same doesn’t really exist for boys. They’re more interested than ever before, but there’s still something missing.

If you're a mom of teens, just go to your local retailer—whether it's Walmart or Target. Walk down the aisle, and what you’ll see is a sea of products marketed and packaged to appeal to young girls. They’re pink, orange, fruity, with scrubs and multiple steps. But when you look for something for your son, there’s much less. You’ll find products in the clinical aisle—dermatologist-recommended, clinical, or medicinal. Or worse, it’s like the OxyPads we had in the ‘80s and ‘90s. We’re a little behind the times, right?

So, that’s what we’re seeing in the retail world and on social media, and our kids are responding accordingly.

Dr. Cam (09:18.422)
Yeah, it’s just not as cool for guys, and it's really important for girls. Now, help us understand what the bare minimum is for keeping our sons from getting acne and not smelling awful.

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (09:39.309)
Yes, I love this because we need to address it for all teens. Parents often ask me, “What’s the basic, healthy skincare regimen for a tween or teen?” So, let's break that down. This is for everyone—boys, girls, and even me.

Dr. Cam (09:56.214)
Good, then we’ll talk about the overkill next.

Dr. Sheilagh Maguiness (10:00.941)
We can definitely touch on that, but at the very least, a tween needs to start washing their face. Studies show that just washing your face, removing dirt and debris once or twice daily, will help with complexion, breakouts, and acne. It removes oil and improves skin clarity. A gentle cleanser is a great start—fragrance-free, hypoallergenic, something that doesn’t strip or over-dry.

We’re not talking about products with beads, scrubs, or charcoal—those aren’t necessary. Just a gentle cleanser, 100%. Then, at nighttime, if needed, a moisturizer. If their skin’s a little dry after cleansing, a light moisturizer is great.

Again, I prefer products that are gentle. There aren’t many products formulated specifically for teen skin, but most can use a fragrance-free, hypoallergenic, non-comedogenic (non-acnegenic) moisturizer.

And always use sunscreen. It’s never too young to start using it. In the morning, an SPF 30 or greater is a great addition to their routine. That’s it. Those three things—the basics—are really all any teen needs for a healthy skincare routine.

Dr. Cam (12:12.182)
I love that, and I think if we sit in there even a few times and do it with them and walk them through it—because they're not going to look at you and say, "I know what to do." They don’t. So I think it’s about walking through it, and if Dad can do it, that's great, right?

Sheilagh Maguiness (12:22.157)
No, I had a funny story. My son went upstairs, very proud of himself, and said, "Mom, I used all the things you said." But he left it on—didn’t wash it off. He’s seen me do this multiple times! So yes, if you model it and show them how to do it, they’ll be more successful in following through on the steps.

It’s quite funny, especially with boys. If you don’t ask them, "Hey, did you just take a shower? Your hair doesn’t seem to have been washed," you might be surprised to find out they haven’t washed their hair or they’re using the shampoo head to toe, all over their face. That can be really irritating. You just don’t know what they’re doing. So ask the questions, make it fun, and talk about it in an encouraging, inquisitive way. It’s a nice opportunity to connect with your tween or teen, I think.

Dr. Cam (13:27.062)
Right, laughing at or shaming them or saying, "That’s so silly," is embarrassing to them because they’re learning.

Sheilagh Maguiness (13:32.173)
Exactly. It's really embarrassing for them. For boys, they may think that a skincare regimen is embarrassing. But we have to remove that. We need to do a better job, both in our homes and in society, of destigmatizing self-care and embracing it. Celebrating it. Because what's better than a 12-year-old who brushes their teeth, washes their face, and uses sunscreen? That’s amazing! You’re establishing habits that will serve them for the rest of their life. It’s an amazing thing.

Dr. Cam (14:07.766)
Yeah, and I think making it super easy and clear will help reduce some of that nagging. We nag because they go in there not even knowing what to do sometimes. They don’t want to do it, and if it’s too complicated, they won’t do it.

Sheilagh Maguiness (14:24.941)
Yes, keeping it basic at the beginning is key. You just need a daily shower or bath, a face cleanser, body cleanser, moisturizer, and sunscreen. That’s it. You're done.

Dr. Cam (14:40.822)
You’re done! So, let's talk about the other extreme. We’ve got the Sephora kids—the Sephora girls. I mean, I have a teen daughter, and she’s the one now teaching me what to use. My skincare routine is so much better now that I have a teenager telling me what I’m supposed to do, because she was right. She knows all the brands. Now, we’ve got girls—12 years old—with tons of serums, lotions, all this stuff.

Sheilagh Maguiness (14:44.301)
Ha ha. 100%.

Dr. Cam (15:11.574)
Do they need it? Is it okay or good for them to be using all that stuff?

Sheilagh Maguiness (15:19.085)
Well, yes, this trend of expensive, complicated, and cumbersome skincare has really been pushed on social media. Kids see celebrities posting complicated TikTok videos and they want to emulate them. That’s the trend. And as you mentioned, it’s the "Sephora baby" trend. Tweens are storming Sephora and Ulta Beauty, making their parents spend all this money on products that may or may not be good for their skin.

Let's break it down. No tween or teen needs harsh acid exfoliants, retinol, tons of toners, or masks that could irritate their developing skin. Our skin barrier is fragile. If you scrub it too much and put on ingredients that act like acids and cause even a tiny chemical burn, you can damage the skin barrier and create other issues. Not only will it feel uncomfortable, but it can look red, lead to allergic or irritant contact dermatitis, and even cause hyperpigmentation in children of color. We don't want that. It can also make acne worse.

So, really, the basics still apply: a cleanser, a moisturizer, and sunscreen. If they want to splurge on a good sunscreen, go for it. That’s always a great splurge. If you're at Sephora, yes, say yes to a good cleanser and sunscreen. A toner is okay, but be mindful of irritation, especially products that are scented or have essential oils.

Sheilagh Maguiness (17:43.757)
I hope this craze dies down soon, both as a mom and a doctor. But there are companies targeting teen girls with flashy packaging. I’ve seen it firsthand.

Dr. Cam (18:00.214)
And the celebrities—all these new celebrity brands. It’s such a big deal, and it’s geared toward younger kids because adults don’t need it. We don’t.

Sheilagh Maguiness (18:14.925)
Nope, we’re not the consumers anymore. They're turning their attention to our tweens and teens, hoping they’ll keep using these products. I’ve seen a lot of young girls in my practice come in with bags full of products. We go through them because many of these products don’t go well with treatments we need for things like eczema, psoriasis, or acne. But these kids are invited to sleepovers where they’re doing all these masks and facials.

We need to educate them to gravitate toward products that are gentle, fragrance-free, and non-comedogenic, especially if they have acne. There are active ingredients that can help with skin concerns, but most teens don’t have major concerns like wrinkles and fine lines. Most of the time, if they have a concern, it’s acne.

Dr. Cam (19:28.318)
That’s for us! No one needs it except us. But girls will want it because it's in the culture, and their friends are going to want the fancy stuff. One thought is to get the basic products and put them in fancy bottles or containers, so they feel special.

Sheilagh Maguiness (19:50.573)
I love that idea. There are some great jars now—many are more sustainable. A glass jar or something reusable is a great investment.

Dr. Cam (20:02.134)
Because they’ll feel special. What else is okay for teens who want to do something more complicated, to feel part of the culture?

Sheilagh Maguiness (20:31.821)
There are great serums out there, many containing hyaluronic acid, which is a great ingredient. I don’t think you can go wrong with a serum that’s mostly hyaluronic acid. It’s a humectant—it draws water in. It’s great to use under a moisturizer.

Dr. Cam (20:55.542)
Okay, so that’s a good extra.

Sheilagh Maguiness (20:57.549)
It is! Another ingredient that’s gained popularity in the last few years is hypochlorous acid. Have you heard of it? It’s antimicrobial and anti-inflammatory. You can spritz it on your face or throw it in your gym bag and use it as a cleanser. It acts like a toner and is really safe. Even if they get it in their eye, it won’t sting or burn.

It’s a great option, like a toner with hypochlorous acid. Some brands carry it, like Tower in a red bottle, or SOS Recovery Sprays. These sprays are fantastic multitaskers because you can use them for skin, cuts, and scrapes.

Dr. Cam (22:02.198)
Can you share one or two of those brands?

Sheilagh Maguiness (22:23.501)
A lot of people don’t know about it, so it’s a great little gem and safe for tweens and teens.

Dr. Cam (22:30.038)
I love that. Let’s say our kids are getting acne, which is common. How can we help them treat it without making it worse, like over-scrubbing or using irritating products?

Sheilagh Maguiness (22:47.725)
Absolutely! If your child is starting to get acne, first, look at the type of acne. Is it red pimples with pus bumps in the middle (inflammatory acne)? Or is it more like blackheads or little comedones under the skin (non-inflammatory)? You may need to treat them differently.

For early acne, if it's comedonal—those bumps under the skin—a good start is a gentle cleanser with 1-2% salicylic acid. Salicylic acid helps break up the bonds between skin cells and clears pores.

Another option is adapalene, a topical retinoid, available under the brand Differin. It’s gentle and works well for preventing and treating acne. But be careful—it can be irritating. Start with a pea-sized amount and use it twice a week, then gradually increase. You can use it on the face, chest, and back.

For inflammatory acne, things like benzoyl peroxide, hypochlorous acid spray, or a sodium hypochlorite-based cleanser can help too.

Dr. Cam (25:09.622):
Yeah, those are great to have, and we'll put all of those in there. I was gonna ask, because the thing that I see a lot, my daughter uses, I've used, are the little pimple patches. What are your thoughts on those?

Sheilagh Maguiness (25:21.389):
Love them. In fact, I wish they had been my idea because I think they're great. The pimple patches do vary though. So for all those listening, just please make sure you use a plain pimple patch, not one with multiple active ingredients or the tiny little ones with a sharper needle-like base. They claim to deliver active ingredients, but I don’t think that's been studied or proven.

The hydrocolloid patches, those little pimple patches, are all very similar. They’re hydrocolloid dressings that help with wound healing. More importantly, they keep fingers off the acne, which helps prevent picking. And that is key, because we don’t want people picking at their acne for fear they might end up with a scar.

Dr. Cam (26:13.142):
Yeah, and that's hard not to do, I think, a lot of times. Just stick it on there. Yeah, those are the best. Okay, that’s good to know.

Sheilagh Maguiness (26:15.885):
So hard. That’s why you slap a pimple patch on and go out the door. I really love that people are doing them in different colors now, normalizing acne. 95% of teens are going to get acne—it’s okay. You can put a pimple patch on and go about your day.

Dr. Cam (26:31.094):
They put colors on and just go like it’s so normal now. It’s interesting. Yeah, that’s great. Okay, so we’ve got simplifying and making it very basic for the boys and showing them how to do it. Simplifying, but maybe fancying it up for the girls and being very cognizant of what we’re allowing on their face. Because a lot of the products they’re putting on their face could actually cause damage.

Sheilagh Maguiness (26:58.669):
Yes, 100%.

Dr. Cam (27:00.47):
So what is the main, like the one main thing you want parents to walk away with from this session or from this interview?

Sheilagh Maguiness (27:09.293):
I don’t want them to feel frustrated with all this skincare craze going on right now. I want to remind everyone that taking great care of your skin for tweens and teens doesn’t have to be expensive, doesn’t have to be cumbersome or multi-step. You can break it down into the advice I’ve given. It doesn’t need to be any of those things. It can be really approachable, fun, and a nice bonding moment for families.

For teens and their parents to go to the store and let them help you pick it out—let them have a say in what they’re choosing.

Dr. Cam (27:45.462):
Now that you said that, I have a question. What if our child refuses to clean their face? It becomes this ongoing battle. How worried should we be, or how long can they go before we should get really worried?

Sheilagh Maguiness (28:04.205):
I mean, if their face looks really dirty or if it’s starting to sprout acne, you probably should arm them with the tools they need. But you know what? Kids are busy, and I love wipes for this particular reason. I actually formulated my own wipes with the Strike Club. I love them because you can take them on the go—no sink needed. You take them out after sports, athletics, whatever you’re doing, wipe down your face, and even wipe down your equipment.

You can even wipe under your underarms with something like that to clean. I feel like wipes resonate more with our busy teens, our active teens, and our boys too. It’s really helpful to throw them in the gym bag—you're one and done. Wipe off and you’re good.

Dr. Cam (28:53.334):
That’s a great idea. I can see that even in the bathroom. Just be like, “If nothing else, just use the wipe. If you don’t have time and you need to get back to gaming, just use the wipe.” Okay. So Dr. Maguiness, how can people find you?

Sheilagh Maguiness (29:03.725):
Exactly. Yeah, I think it’s a really nice tool.
I’ve ventured a little into social media, and you can find me on both Instagram and TikTok, where I post educational content, mainly for parents.

Dr. Cam (29:21.366):
I love that. Okay, and what are you on TikTok?

Sheilagh Maguiness (29:24.045):
Sorry, on TikTok, it’s @DrSheilagh (my name is spelled the Irish way, with a G-H at the end), and on Instagram, I’m @doctor.sheila.

Dr. Cam (29:34.358):
Okay, I’ll put all that information in the show notes as well. This is great. This was helpful for me too. I’ve learned a lot. Thank you so much for joining us.

Sheilagh Maguiness (29:36.749):
Thank you!
I hope so. Great. Thanks so much for having me. It’s been so fun to talk about all these fun current issues. 

ABOUT THE SHOW
The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together. #theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam 

#teenagehygiene #skincareforteens

Teen resilience is more important than ever. Between social anxieties, academic pressures, and the complexities of friendships, many teens struggle to navigate life’s challenges. That’s why I’m thrilled to welcome Jesse LeBeau, a nationally recognized youth motivational speaker and teen coach. With his powerful underdog story and proven methods, Jesse has inspired over a million teens to develop confidence, resilience, and a winning mindset. In this episode, he shares his game-changing approach—The Attitude Advantage—to help teens conquer adversity and thrive.

Key Takeaways

• Building self-esteem and confidence is essential for teens to overcome challenges.
• Setting boundaries and limiting screen time can reduce the negative effects of social media on mental health.
• Parents should prepare their teens for real-world struggles by allowing them to experience failure and growth.
• Finding a mentor can provide teens with valuable guidance and support.

Enjoying the Show?

Help others discover this episode by leaving a rating and review! Your feedback means the world to me and allows us to bring even more valuable insights to parents like you. Don’t forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫 

Connect with Jesse LeBeau

• Website: www.jesselebeau.com
• Instagram: @jesselebeau
• Facebook: Jesse LeBeau
• YouTube: Jesse LeBeau Channel
• LinkedIn: Jesse LeBeau

Connect with Dr. Cam

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

About the Show:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your essential guide to navigating the complexities of adolescence with clarity and confidence. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist, the podcast provides practical strategies and expert insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional development. Whether you're an experienced parent or just starting your journey with teens, this podcast is packed with valuable information to help you thrive.

#TeenResilience #ConfidenceMatters #OvercomingAdversity #TeenMotivation #ParentingTeens #TheAttitudeAdvantage #RaisingResilientTeens #TeenSuccess #JesseLeBeau #TeenEmpowerment #GrowthMindset #MentalStrength #LifeSkillsForTeens #BuildingConfidence #TheTeenTranslator #DrCamCaswell

Did you know that 20% of adolescents in the U.S. experience symptoms of body dysmorphia or eating disorders? The pressure to achieve unrealistic beauty standards is stronger than ever, thanks to social media and diet culture. As a parent, you want to protect your teen from these harmful influences—but how?

In this episode, Dr. Cam is joined by Dr. Kelli Rugless, a licensed psychologist, certified eating disorders specialist, and the Chief Clinical Officer at Project HEAL, a non-profit dedicated to making eating disorder treatment accessible to all. Together, they uncover the dangers of diet culture, the role of social media, and how parents can support their teens in developing a healthy relationship with food and their bodies.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How diet culture and social media impact teens' body image and mental health
• Practical strategies to help your teen build a positive relationship with food
• The truth about emotional eating—and why it’s not always bad
• How parental support can make a powerful difference in preventing eating disorders

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Social media plays a huge role in shaping teens' body image, often fueling insecurities and unrealistic beauty standards.

2. Teaching your teen to have a balanced, non-restrictive approach to food can help prevent disordered eating patterns.

3. Emotional eating isn’t inherently harmful—understanding its role can help teens develop a healthier mindset around food.

4. Open conversations about body image and self-worth can empower your teen to reject toxic diet culture.

5. Your connection and support as a parent are critical in helping your teen build confidence and a healthy self-image.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?

Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family! Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Remember to hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• Project HEAL FREE clinical assessments

EPISODE CHAPTERS:

• 00:00 Introduction to the Impact of Diet Culture and Social Media on Teens
• 02:33 The Scary Impact of Social Media on Teen Self-Esteem
• 06:12 Addressing the Prominence of Diet Culture and Thin Ideals
• 10:41 Navigating Unhealthy Relationships with Food and Body Image
• 29:11 Understanding Emotional Eating and Coping Mechanisms

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Dr. Kelli Rugless

• Website: https://www.drkellirugless.com
• Instagram: @drkellirugless
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelli-rugless-psyd
• Project HEAL Website: https://www.theprojectheal.org

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell
• Newsletter: https://drcam.ck.page/newsletter

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:00.454)
Hello parents, Dr. Cam here. Today we're diving into a critical issue—the constant pressure of diet culture and its impact on our teens. Did you know a whopping 20% of adolescents in the U.S. experience symptoms of body dysmorphia or eating disorders? Is the unrealistic expectation bombarding them on social media to blame? Joining me to shed light on this topic is the amazing Dr. Kelli Rugless, a licensed psychologist, Certified Eating Disorder Specialist, and the Chief Clinical Officer at Project HEAL, a remarkable nonprofit fighting for everyone to have access to eating disorder healing. Dr. Rugless, welcome to the show.

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (00:40.369)
Thank you for having me.

Dr. Cam (00:41.958)
Absolutely. So let's start at the beginning. What inspired you to specialize in eating disorders?

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (00:48.049)
Honestly, I was not inspired by anything. Truthfully, I went into graduate school thinking that eating disorders were the last thing I wanted to work with. I think they get a bad rap. My first introduction was a teacher talking about how people with eating disorders really don't get better, they're really difficult, and it's a really hard population to work with. I remember thinking, I don’t want to do that. So my first thought was absolutely not—I never want to do that.

But then, as part of my training, I had different rotations, and eating disorders were one of them. I began to see how much more they are about than just food. Food is what grabs everyone’s attention, but eating disorders are about so much more. Once I realized the different aspects they could involve—the intersection of mental health, physical health, and even social justice—it just felt like the perfect fit for me and my interests. So I wasn’t initially inspired, but once I had the experience, I saw the depth of it.

Dr. Cam (02:05.222)
Right. And then all of a sudden, it just sounded way more interesting and complicated. And they can be helped, correct? Because that started off like—wait a second! Yeah, they can be helped.

One of the scariest things about social media—one of many—is the impact it has on our self-esteem, how we view our bodies, and how teens are growing up viewing their own bodies. I've seen this personally. I know a lot of parents are worried about this. First of all, is this something to be concerned about?

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (02:50.161)
Yes, we should all be very much concerned about the impact social media is having—not only on teenagers and their confidence and body image but on their mental health in general. Every single research study out there looking at social media tells us the same thing: people feel worse the more they use it.

And it doesn’t matter how they use it. You could try to curate a page focused on positivity and growth, but the issue is that social media is a highlight reel presented as real life. You're only seeing the best parts of people's lives—or even the most curated parts of the bad moments. It’s a well-edited, well-produced version of vulnerability or sadness. It looks real, but it’s not.

This makes it easy to believe your life should look like everyone else's and that your body should look like theirs. Not only is that unhealthy, but it’s also unrealistic.

Dr. Cam (04:14.374)
But here’s the thing, Kelli—social media isn’t going away, and our teens are not going to let go of it. It’s their entertainment, their social interaction, their connection to the world. So what do we do?

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (04:30.193)
The best thing we can do is model the type of relationship we want our children to have with social media.

That means saying things like, I'm sure we're only getting half the story or I wonder what filters they used on that or We don’t see all of their life—just a small part. Keep reinforcing the idea that social media is entertainment, not reality.

You wouldn’t look at a movie and think, That’s how my life should go. You’d understand there are editors, production, and scripts involved. The same thing applies to social media, but because it feels organic, we forget all the mechanisms at play.

It’s also okay to set limits. Have house rules like no phones at dinner or no screens after a certain time when on vacation. These small boundaries help create a healthier relationship with social media. You’re not taking it away completely, but you are setting limits.

Dr. Cam (06:12.39)
That’s so important—for us as well. Because while we’re worried about our kids, I see the impact on parents, too. Parents start comparing their kids to others.

Diet culture has always been a big deal, but now it's everywhere. Dangerous TikTok trends for losing weight are popping up constantly. How do we buffer against this diet-crazed, thin-is-best culture—especially when so many of us have already bought into it?

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (07:11.985)
That’s a great point. As parents, the way we influence our kids most is through how we talk about ourselves.

You can tell your kids all day long that all bodies are beautiful, but if you’re looking in the mirror criticizing yourself, talking about needing to lose weight, or pointing out your flaws, that message will override everything else.

Work on your own relationship with your body. Acknowledge that your body’s appearance is the least interesting thing about you. Your value is inherent—not tied to how you look. And your body does so much for you. Even if there’s something you don’t like about it, balance that with gratitude for what it can do.

If you need to talk to someone to work through those things, it’s worth it. The impact on your kids, your family, and even your friends is huge.

Dr. Cam (09:16.614)
That was something I was committed to from day one with my daughter—never talking about my body in a negative way in front of her. It’s a struggle, but I didn’t want her to have the same struggles.

Even with all of that, social media still bombards her with these messages. And sometimes, no matter how much we talk, what they see feels more real than what we say. So what else can we do?

[10:49.233] Kelli Rugless, PsyD: One thing we can do is stay curious. Instead of saying, "That’s bad for you—don’t watch that," ask them, "How does this make you feel?" Rather than jumping in to fix it, validate their experience. If they say, "It just makes me feel terrible," resist the urge to say, "No, you’re beautiful!" Instead, say, "I get that. If I were in your shoes, I’d feel the same way." When they’re ready for reassurance, that’s when you say, "But you are so much more than your appearance. I love this about you, your friends love that about you." Let them lead. Be there to listen first, and the influence will follow.

Our culture isn't right, but our goal is to talk to our kids and teenagers about the realities of accepting this really toxic culture that we live in, internalizing the messages, and what that can do—versus setting ourselves apart and actively trying to distance ourselves from the toxic aspects of our culture. Weight stigma is real.

People being afraid of gaining weight makes sense, right? Given the culture we live in—where there's discrimination against folks of different sizes—you can't get your clothes at the same store as your friends if you get above a certain size. If they do make it, it doesn't fit the same, the quality's different. There are real consequences to being in a larger body that people naturally want to avoid. It makes sense why they want to avoid that. However, it doesn't make weight stigma okay, right?

So what we're talking about is two types of discomfort. You can either be uncomfortable in the sense that you've internalized these toxic beliefs about weight and are forever on a hamster wheel trying to keep up with everyone, which is uncomfortable and really hard. Or you can be uncomfortable in the sense that you're separating yourself from the culture, which means you don't quite fit in. You're not talking about the same things, you're not getting on every new diet, you're not limiting the clothing you wear or saying, "I can only wear a one-piece because my body is this size." You're fully living the life you want to live in the body that you're in. And you might be on the outside of things, or you might get some dirty looks, or you might hear people saying rude things. No matter how you look at it, there's discomfort. It's going to be hard. The key is to pick your hard.

Which type of challenge do you want to take on? Which one is in alignment with your values and the kind of person you want to be as an adult? And that is the hard piece. It's a mature topic. It's a big, heavy decision. A lot of times, when I'm working with teenagers, one of the things they’ll mention to me is, "Why do I have to deal with this? All my other friends aren't talking about this. They're not thinking about this. Why am I thinking about it?" And I kind of commiserate with them and say, "I know. You're having to do some really heavy work really early. It will serve you. As you get older, you’ll be light years ahead of some folks. By the time you get to your 20s or 30s, you will have done this and figured out who you are outside of your appearance, and you'll be grateful. But right now, it is hard because the rest of your friends aren't dealing with this heaviness."

[19:41.126] Dr. Cam: Yeah. So what if they go into a really restrictive diet or develop a very unhealthy relationship with food and exercise because they’ve picked the "I don’t want to be different. I want to be thin and be like everyone I see in the world" route? Which, again, is not true. But what if they go that route and you're like, "I'm getting really scared about their health and their mindset about themselves because now they're obsessed with their weight"? I see kids that never feel good enough. I'll ask them, "What weight are you trying to get to?" or "How thin do you need to be?" and they don’t even have a goal. They just say, "Till I feel confident." And that’s dangerous because they won’t. So how do we handle that if we see our kids going down that path?

[20:29.137] Kelli Rugless, PsyD: That is the time to absolutely say something and do something—act quickly. Sometimes it can be tempting to let them grow out of it, to let them figure it out, or to avoid arguing with them. "I don’t want to create conflict, so I’m just going to let it be. I’m seeing some things I don’t like, and I’m just going to hope that things right themselves." With eating disorders, they thrive in isolation. The longer you let it go without saying something, the stronger it becomes and the harder it is to address.

When you see something, say something. Be loving, be kind, be warm, but be really clear about your concerns and act. Call a therapist who specializes in eating disorders. Look up an eating disorder treatment center in your area to get an assessment. Act quickly and get professionals involved. Eating disorders require a team—many people working from different directions to help someone recover. The quicker you notice it and get help, the easier it is to address. Talk about it, ask questions, express your love and care, but be really firm about your desire to help them and your confidence that what you’re seeing is not okay.

[22:20.902] Dr. Cam: Now, I’ve had parents who—understandably, no judgment—force their kids to eat. They set consequences if they don’t eat, put a certain amount of food on their plate, or bribe them to eat. Is that a helpful method?

[22:39.185] Kelli Rugless, PsyD: It depends on where your child is, but it can be helpful. I’d say it’s most helpful under the guidance of a provider. If, as a parent, you're going to take on that role, make sure your teenager has a therapist to help them process how hard it is to be forced to eat when they’re really afraid of food or gaining weight. But the act of feeding your child and making food non-negotiable is a very important part of treatment and recovery. A malnourished brain cannot get better. It can’t do the work of figuring out the underlying causes of the eating disorder if it is not well-nourished.

Feeding your child and making it a priority is huge, but you also want to make sure they have the support they need. Food is not just food anymore—it’s really hard. The level of anxiety that those with eating disorders feel when forced to eat is through the roof. They need support, skills, and sometimes even medication. So make sure you provide as much support as you can through the re-feeding process.

Dr. Cam (29:27.75)
Well, it's not as good as Doritos either, let's be real.

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (29:39.697)
These black-and-white ideas about food—so that we can be more clear about what we feel like, what we actually want to eat versus what we feel driven to eat.

Dr. Cam (29:49.03)
That is so important. And Kelli, it’s funny because I use that same philosophy with tech use: when we keep restricting it, they end up binging it and not having a healthy relationship with it. So I think this goes across anything. If you see your kids hoarding or having meltdowns or sneaking something, it’s not about hoarding or stopping it more. It’s about where we are already restricting to the point where they now have to get sneaky.

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (30:16.785)
Yeah, absolutely. We need more opportunities to say yes, right? The more you say yes, the easier it is to say no. Because you feel like, "Well, I can tell myself if I can’t have it today, I can have it another day." If I can’t have my electronics on Monday, I know I’ll get them on Tuesday. So I can put it away because I know I can look forward to it. And the same goes with food.

Dr. Cam (30:39.462)
Yeah, it is. And it’s all about developing a healthy relationship with it. I think that’s the biggest thing: How are we looking at it as something that gives us nutrients, energy, makes us feel good, and separating it from how we look? And that’s important.

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (31:00.817)
Absolutely. The only other point I’ll make that I think is really important is I have a lot of parents talk to me about, "My kid is emotionally eating. Emotional eating is really bad. I don’t want them to do it." What I will say is, emotional eating is not bad. If you think about the things that we need to survive—water, air, food—food is the only one that can literally change, you know, it can increase a certain amount of neurotransmitters and change your mood.

So, it’s got a really valuable purpose. It’s our psychiatric medication. And when we don’t have access to it, that’s a good thing. You just want to make sure that’s not the only way your child is managing their emotions. If it’s one out of ten different things they do when they don’t feel good, that’s okay. We’re supposed to do that. That’s how humans have evolved. That’s what our relationship with food is supposed to be. It’s not just about fuel. But you want to make sure that your child also knows how to journal, meditate, put on some music to influence their mood, maybe get outside and get some sun. They need to know how to manage their emotions in a variety of ways, so they’re not overusing food as a tool for coping.

Dr. Cam (32:21.03)
I’m very thankful you brought that up because yes, that is a big one I hear as well. And it is something that makes you think, "Are they just going to be a binger their whole life?" I think looking at it as a coping mechanism and digging into what they’re coping with is huge. And finding other ways is phenomenal. Kelli, what’s the one biggest takeaway you think is important for parents to have from this episode?

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (32:47.217)
I hope parents take away this idea: Their children are okay. There are things out there that are really scary, and there are big concerns, right? We want to avoid eating disorders, we want to avoid negative body image, but by and large, your children are okay. And what they need more than anything else is a connection with you. If you are fostering that connection, you will be able to see what they’re struggling with from a mile away, and you’ll have built the necessary relationship to have the influence you need to help them. So, rather than focusing on these individual topics that are scary, I would always go back to building that connection with your children. Get to know them, do your best to enjoy them, so that you are naturally in a relationship with them. That way, you’ll see what they see, and you can address issues as they come up. Because that’s where our power is as parents: In our ability to connect with them.

Dr. Cam (33:48.774)
It certainly is. And I think we focus a lot on the correction and the restriction, which tears apart our connection— the only thing that actually helps. So, I see that a lot. I love that. Kelli, how do people find you?

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (33:58.897)
Yeah, it’s the connection and it’s the love. I’m on social media, although I’m not particularly active, but I am on social media at Dr. Kelli Rugless. I have my own practice, where I see parents, families, and adults for eating disorder and body image stuff, called Flir Psychology. I also work at Project Teal. Project Teal is an amazing nonprofit. If you or someone you know is concerned about having an eating disorder and maybe wants a free assessment, we offer free assessments. We provide treatment recommendations, connect you with providers in your area who specialize in eating disorders, offer cash assistance, and insurance navigation. We have a whole host of programs meant to help folks learn about eating disorders and recover at any stage. You can find me in those three areas.

Dr. Cam (35:01.222)
I have a feeling a lot of people are thinking, "I need Project Teal. How do they find it?"

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (35:05.041)
Yeah. You can go online at www.theprojectheal.org. That website has everything you need: resources, services, helpful information about eating disorders. It’s the website to visit.

Dr. Cam (35:21.254)
I’ll put that link as well. Kelli, thank you so much for joining me today.

Kelli Rugless, PsyD (35:23.057)
Thank you for having me.

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together.

#theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam #bodyimage #eatingdisorders

In this powerful episode, Dr. Cam is joined by Sarah Bruno-Patrey to discuss the far-reaching effects of religious trauma on teens and how parents can help them navigate these challenges. Sarah shares her personal story of growing up within a religious youth program and the healing journey she experienced. If your teen is grappling with religious trauma or a crisis of faith, this episode will provide you with the tools to better understand and support them through these tough times. It’s a must-listen for parents looking to create an open, supportive environment for their teens, especially when faith and identity are involved.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How religious trauma impacts teens and how it can lead to feelings of isolation and shame
• Practical ways to help your teen through a crisis of faith
• How to recognize unhealthy religious experiences and protect your teen’s mental health
• The importance of open communication, mentorship, and empowering your teen to make their own decisions about faith

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Religious trauma can leave teens feeling emotionally isolated, and it’s crucial to recognize the signs early to offer support.
2. Open communication is essential for helping your teen heal from religious trauma—letting them express their feelings is key.
3. Supporting your teen through a crisis of faith is about being present, not imposing beliefs, and offering a safe space.
4. Parents should focus on being mentors, helping teens navigate spiritual and emotional challenges without pressure.
5. Offering your teen options and autonomy during this process can help them find their own path to healing and self-discovery.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?
Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family! Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Remember to hit SUBSCRIBE so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

EPISODE CHAPTERS
00:00 – The Impact of Religious Trauma on Teens
03:34 – Recognizing Unhealthy Experiences in Religious Programs

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Sarah Bruno-Patrey

• TikTok: @sarahbrunopatrey

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam

As parents, we want nothing more than our teens to find their path in life. For many, religion offers a sense of belonging and purpose. But what happens when it leaves our teens feeling isolated, ashamed, or questioning everything they believe? Today, I'm joined by Sarah Bruno -Patri to talk about the impact of religious trauma on teens and what parents can do to support them. But before we dive in, I want to share that Sarah and I have known each other for years, and actually through church but I only recently heard about her experiences with this particular religious program, actually through TikTok, and talked to her and asked her if she would jump on, because I feel like it's really important for us parents to be aware of what's going on. So Sarah, welcome to the show. Thank you. So let's talk about, first of all, what was your experience because you did this as a teenager. So what was kind of the experience or the motive to go into this particular program and what was that program?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (00:59.19)

Yeah, so I grew up obviously in the church and it was an amazing, beautiful experience. And I knew after I graduated high school that college was not like in the cards for me, at least immediately. And so my parents and I decided that I could take a gap year and they would foot the bill and I can just go find a program and go do that as long as I had a plan. And so I had been exposed to this organization called Youth with a Mission (https://ywam.org/> when I was actually in high school, I went with a couple of classmates to Kona, Hawaii, two summers in a row. And so I kind of had a sense of what this organization was. I knew that it wasn't exactly how I had grown up in the church. It was a little bit different with its theology and things like that. And I was like, it's okay, I'll put those things aside. And I decided to go to Australia. So I went to literally the farthest place that I could go from Washington DC. If you drilled a hole through the earth, it would come out in Perth, Australia, or at least around there. And I just wanted to get out of our town. And so that's where I went. And I was there for six months. I spent three months of it in Perth, Australia and three months of it in Asia.

 Dr. Cam (02:16.742)

At that time, and I know through the teen years, I know church paid a big and religion played a big part in your life. What kind of role was that playing for you or what kind of place was that filling for you?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (02:31.094)

It was just like the big sense of community for me. I feel like going through school, like I had different friend groups, but then once I really found my community in my church and like other youth ministry organizations, it was like, these are my people. I had the support that I needed as a teenager and I had like the adults around me that I needed as a teenager because teenagers need a lot of adults. And so that was just like, I spent all my time with my religious community. And it was a great thing up until that point. It was like an amazing part of my life. So.

Dr. Cam (03:06.278)

That's what's really clear about this. We're not saying like religious groups are bad, you know, and we did. I mean, I was one of your youth leaders and it was an amazing experience. And we were able to really just connect and talk to kids on a lot deeper level. So then it went to this next phase. And I think one of the things the question is, how do we know when it is a healthy experience and when it becomes a toxic experience?

Tell us a little bit about your experience there and when did you actually realize it might not be the healthiest experience for you.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (03:43.062)

Yeah, so like I said before, I kind of knew what I was getting into wasn't exactly like how I had been raised in the church. I knew that things would be a little bit different. But like for some reference of it, it's a six month initially to like join this organization. You have to do a six month program. The first three months that I was in Australia was the discipleship training school part of it. So it was like the lecture phase is what they called it. And so that was you're in a classroom all week.

And then you did the outreach, which was like the mission part. And it was pretty early on into it that I realized that this isn't, not only did I not like align with this in its theology, the things that I could kind of put aside, but just in like most aspects, it just wasn't a healthy organization. It was pretty like off the bat, a lot of comments about my faith and my spirituality growing up where I grew up that I didn't like see eye to eye was a lot bigger of a deal. And every week we had a topic and every Friday they called it like application Friday. So the first week was prayer. So we learned about prayer and then Friday we did something involving prayer like evangelism for example, we did Monday through Thursday we learned about evangelism on Friday we went out and evangelized. I think the big thing that sent sirens off in my head was the third week we did forgiveness and repentance. Where, you know, Monday through Thursday, we learned about sin and repentance and things that are biblical and good, like, you know, repenting from your sins, turning the other direction, walking away from it completely, things that are pretty standard. But then on Friday, when we had our application, we had to write a list of our sins down.

Dr. Cam (05:08.774)

Red flags, yes.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (05:38.134)

Things that spanned from yoga, which I don't believe is a sin. I have never believed it was a sin. I remember like going on the phone with my pastor from home. I was like, is yoga really a sin? And he's like, no, that's a little ridiculous. Playing Dungeons and Dragons, things like that. Yeah, all the way to like sexual sin, things like that. We had to write a list and then on Friday morning, we started in the morning, we had to sit next to a speaker.

Dr. Cam (05:41.446)

Yoga! My goodness.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (06:05.11)

We didn't really know in a classroom full of people that we've only known for a few weeks. And we actually combined with another classroom, so complete strangers at that point. And we had to sit up there, read our lists of sins, and then repent for it, ask for forgiveness from God. Again, things that are all biblical, if they're done correctly. So, you know, confessing to a friend, somebody you trust would be a very, like, good practice. But this was kind of distorted and sitting up there telling it to a group of people you didn't know, you didn't have like that relational currency with. Having to forgive for just crazy things and it lasted for 14 hours. We didn't, yeah, we didn't have, we missed our meals, everything. So that was when I was like, I'm not gonna just like sit here and do everything that they tell me to do. I am going to question some things and yeah, big red flags. they didn't like that. I didn't even want to participate in that particular activity. And I was kind of like getting the death stare from the leader at the time. He was standing right next to the door so he couldn't even like walk out. It's just a lot of very strategic things like that to kind of wear you down until you actually get up there and do it. And.

Dr. Cam (07:06.918)

How did that go over when you started to question things? No?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (07:30.454)

the entire program I was questioning things and I was saying things that I believed about like even just topics like women in ministry, things like that. And it was always not reprimanded, like I would get in trouble, but it was definitely like, you need to just stop, like keep your mouth shut. Like this isn't your place, which I like to question things. So that is the question that I get a lot. And I think it's hard for people who look in from an outside perspective to understand why somebody would stay. But first of all, I was a teenager. I had built this up in my head of like, this is my gap year. I'm in Australia. I have this new sense of independence I didn't have at home. Not that my parents were strict looking back on it. Of course, I thought that they were the most strict people in the entire world. My parents had spent all this money, like I think like 10 grand for me to be there. I knew I could go home if I wanted to. My parents had the financial ability to get me home. I knew that, like that was just an option, but it also wasn't. They kind of made it seem like, well, everybody at home has moved on. You don't have a community at home anyways. I had friends there that couldn't get home financially for whatever reasons. I felt like I would be leaving them in the dust if I left. I also have a big sense of pride of like, I don't want to admit that this didn't go the way that I was expecting it to, the way that I had convinced my parents it would go. I think that's a hard lesson for any teenager to learn is to just swallow your pride if it means to keep yourself safe and, you know, but didn't do that. So, mm -hmm.

Dr. Cam (09:12.902)

You stayed and then did it ever, did you ever kind of change your idea about it or kind of warm up to what that experience was?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (09:24.182)

Yes, it's like, it's a really weird, like, experience being there because it does become your entire world. And I knew that I wasn't seeing eye to eye with this organization as a whole. It had its issues, but these were like my friends now, my people. And I just kind of at some point was like, this is it. Like this is, I don't want to go to college still. Everybody at home. They've been telling that everybody at home has moved on they don't there will be nobody at home for me and we did have fun like there were some really fun parts and so it was just a lot of like you have tunnel vision while you're there and you're being love -bombed but also like Not you're also being worn down

Dr. Cam (10:14.054)

Sounds like a little bit of gaslighting too maybe.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (10:17.174)

There's a lot of gaslighting, yeah. I would definitely agree with that.

Dr. Cam (10:21.702)

When you're talking to your parents about it, how are you selling what's going on down there?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (10:28.758)

So my parents and I had kind of like a complicated relationship before I had left. We didn't have like a huge like, we weren't super close in the way that I could be like, my gosh, like this is how I'm feeling. It was mostly like, this is what we're doing. And like, here's my friend that I've made. Like we're having fun. And then I think once I went on outreach was where I realized that my parents weren't the enemy. And like I did need them more than I thought I did, because I had some pretty bad experiences while I was not only in Australia, which is like America just far away, but I was in rural parts of Nepal and Indonesia. And like there were instances where I was like, I really wish I had my mom right now. And we didn't have Wi -Fi. We didn't have, I went like weeks without being able to talk to them. And so we just didn't have a huge like open line of communication. Even when I was in Australia, it was a 13 hour time difference. So communicating was tough as it was, but.

Dr. Cam (11:31.078)

So they had you isolated in there. And so you, when you, so then you came, you did come home after six months. And how was that transition?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (11:39.03)

Mm -hmm. It was really hard. They don't prepare you to come home. And I think that that is a little strategic. It was interesting seeing that, like, yeah, my friends, obviously their life doesn't stop while they're back at home. You know, a lot of them are still in high school. And then just coming in, being like the outsider all of a sudden, it kind of like reinforced, I need to go back. I need to go where people are familiar.

And so there was no preparation on either end. I don't think my parents knew that they would have to prepare me. I think it was just like, you're home, like going to college or something. Yeah, exactly. So it was tough. And then my community just in general kind of fell apart. And then that's when like I had a mentor be like, you should really just give college a shot, just go. And that was nice because

Dr. Cam (12:19.462)

What's the difference?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (12:37.814)

everybody's starting over in college. Nobody has that sense of community that I thought I was going to have when I came home or that was back in Australia.

Dr. Cam (12:46.726)

Were you able to share with that mentor what had been going on? I know you said you really weren't comfortable sharing with your parents at that time, but were you able to share with your mentor?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (12:55.35)

So I had been in communication with him and his wife, probably more than my parents at that point while I was over there. So they were kind of clued in on a lot of stuff that was happening already. And they were very skeptical of the organization already because they had family members that were in it before. And so they kind of knew, and I think they were able to kind of redirect me a little bit better than my parents did because they had no experience with it.

And so it was a little bit easier to share that. But I think a lot of it I didn't realize was even that wrong until I went to college and I started talking to friends and sharing stories and even talking to friends that I had back in Australia when they moved home and we kind of like decompressed together and deconstructed like our experience. And we're like, wow, that was like in hindsight, hindsight's always 20, 20. That was not a good thing, that was not okay, it wasn't healthy. So being able to do that together was nice too.

Dr. Cam (14:01.926)

How do you think that's impacted you now? Now that you're like realizing this was not a great situation, how is that kind of feeding into how you're interacting with the world or just your thoughts of yourself right now even?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (14:17.398)

Yeah, I think it's really easy to like look back and be like, my gosh, I was so stupid to like keep going to stay and like, you know, I have people, my TikTok comments being like, why didn't you lie? Why didn't you leave? Why didn't you do that X, Y, and Z? And I have to like give myself some grace because I was 18 years old. Like I was very young and just, yeah.

Dr. Cam (14:44.55)

I want to help parents understand because this is a specific situation, but it is, it relates to a lot of situations because we've got this sense of needing to find a place to belong. Right. And so that is enormously important for all humans, but particularly for a teenager, right. Finding that, sense of not having a voice because you are a teenager. Even though you're disagreeing, not feeling like you have that ability to stand up and also kind of not having the connection you needed at the time with your parents to be able to say, hey, we've got to change this. So you're kind of, there's kind of the sense of isolation. So how can parents or what can your parents do? Is there anything they could have done differently at that point or what could have helped at that point. And this is not blaming your parents at all, not even remotely, but I think this is more, again, 2020 hindsight, right? This is more telling parents, hey, here's some things to look out for or here's some things we can do now to hopefully prevent this from happening.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (15:44.502)

My parents did, I feel like, all the right things. They reached out to multiple people that had been in the organization. We had dinner with a family that their son had been a part of it for a while. And I think one of the things in hindsight is we got a lot of the male perspective from being in that organization, which I think going in as an 18 -year -old female is a lot different than a 20 -year -old male, you know? So just making sure, like, first of all, that is seeing eye to eye. Also, I think one thing that we could have done better was pinpointing why I wanted to go. For me, it wasn't so much the religious aspect that was just more convenient. It was the traveling. I wanted to get out. I wanted to travel. I wanted to be away from home. I think something that parents can do when kids come to them saying, I want to be a missionary or I want to be specifically in this organization is to be like, well, why do you want to do that? Do you want to travel? If so, there are so many organizations that you're able to travel. Because my parents would have never let me just go backpack through Europe by myself. Like that's just not, but there's different organizations. There's different ways to do that. If it is something where you want to serve, you want to volunteer, there's plenty of organizations that also do that.

Dr. Cam (17:07.91)

That sounds scary.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (17:22.358)

that are great and reputable and I have a whole list of them that aren't YWAM that I could... But if it is a religious thing, I think what is really important is to first recognize that serving locally in your local church or even going and interning at a church in a different state. Doing something that is serving your local community is going to be a lot more helpful to those communities than a white person going to Nepal and being like, Jesus is amazing. I think that, yeah, exactly. I think like, I mean, there's a lot of issues and the whole mission aspect of it too. But I think pinpointing exactly why your child, your teen wants to go and do a gap year, because college isn't for everyone right off the bat. And then finding different ways, having options and being like, of course you can't, 

Dr. Cam (17:53.958)

We relate to you so well.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (18:19.638)

At that point be like, you need to do this. I mean, you can, but if you want them to have the choice, you're like, here's your options, here's the pros and cons, and then go from there. Interview people, there's plenty of Facebook groups for different organizations. There's a lot that I'm in that are like survivors of YYM. So I think that that's probably a big red flag.

Dr. Cam (18:37.798)

Wow. Yeah, go research if there are a bunch of groups that are survivors of this, that might not be a good sign that that's the thing to do. When your mentor kind of talked you out of going back and going to school, what were some of the things that he said to you that parents might, because that's not an easy thing to do, especially if you've got that, like, I don't want to show that I was wrong.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (18:42.55)

Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Cam (19:07.014)

I want to be independent. I don't want to show that I made a bad choice, even though you had no idea. So what can parents do at that point to say, okay, it's okay, how do we move forward?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (19:22.294)

Yeah, I think a big thing for me was college was very accessible and I know that that's not like the case for everybody. One of the points he made was like, well, you're not paying for it. Like just go, just try it. Like what's the worst that could happen? And just, he never made me feel like I made a wrong decision by going and that like what I did was wrong or that I should feel any type of shame about it. It was just like here's a different opportunity and like, what do you have to lose by at least trying? Like give it, he said, just give it a semester. It was like, I had a start and an end date of like giving this and I went into that college, like ready to prove him wrong and be like, I told you I don't like it. And like, this isn't for me. And the exact opposite is what happened, but having like just a different option. And I mean, I'm really stubborn. So even having just the challenge of like, give it a try, like what's the worst that could happen? So if you do go back, if you're just gonna go back six months later than you expected, what's the difference? Mm -hmm.

Dr. Cam (20:24.07)

Right, let's try something different. I think there's so many good points there because it's not about forcing you, it's not about shaming or pointing out what you did wrong. It is about going, okay, that was your choice, here's why you did it, let's try something else. And that end date, so it's like, let's just give it a try, a go. And it's not like you're stuck doing and committed to that. Because I think sometimes kids go, “If I try it, then I'm committed to it for how, four years. And now if I don't want to do it. So I like that that was kind of that approach. And how did your parents feel about that approach? I'm sure they were. Yeah. So the other thing is having mentors for your kid that you trust. absolutely. And the thing is, he had spent years building that relationship with you too. They were thrilled. They were so relieved. Well he was the only one that I would have listened to, honestly.

Dr. Cam (21:15.718)

That makes a big difference as well as having that opportunity and having other people around that you trust because parents aren't going to be the first person kids go to and for many of the same reasons you didn't is because you just don't want to show that you're wrong because you're trying to be independent. And that's a hard thing to do. What are some signs that parents might be able to look for that you think that their kids are in an unhealthy situation.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (21:48.374)

Yeah, I think just like distance communication is a big thing. Like I said, like my parents and I weren't super close at this point. So like that wasn't probably wasn't the biggest red flag to them that I wasn't talking to them every day. But also just if everything seems like rainbow and sunshine, like maybe it is, but maybe it's not. And just like asking questions to not just like, like what have you been doing? But like, what have you been doing? And like, how did that not make you feel, because what teenager is going to love that question? But how is that experience for you? Asking about the relationships that they're making, their interactions with leadership, I think is a big thing too. I was having really awful interactions with leadership and not even to fault them because looking back on it, they were 21, 22, 23. I can't, yeah, exactly. And this has been their entire life too.  

Dr. Cam (22:40.006)

Doing what they were told.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (22:45.782)

But interactions with leadership and just like, how are you, you know, like how are they interacting with you? How are you interacting with them? How is that making you feel? Like, do you feel safe? There's a lot of times where I was like, we weren't even in a safe location, like to even live, which I think if my dad had seen where I was living, he would have been very upset.  

Dr. Cam (23:10.406)

Was there anything they could have said or done to have forced you back?

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (23:16.086)

I don't know, honestly, that's a good question. Maybe if they had like physically come get me, or been like bribed me somehow with like, you know, you can, we can go on a trip to Europe, I don't know. But, mm -hmm.

Dr. Cam (23:22.182)

Then you might have resented it or still not come to that conclusion yourself that this wasn't a good situation. And so you would have still thought that was a good decision or a good break. So I think you going through, which is hard for parents to see, but you going through this and figuring this out seems to be what really got you through this. And you got through it.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (23:38.23)

Exactly. I did. And it's been like a long time deconstructing all of it, but like I do think that I have like a better sense of self because of it. So it's a hard thing to like look back on too, because yeah, I don't think that there was much my parents could have done. I think that there are ways that I could have been supported when I got home a little bit better, but teenagers sometimes are just gonna have to figure things out by themselves. I was definitely that type of teenager. So. Yes.

Dr. Cam (24:27.078)

There's a lot of that type of teenager and it's very frustrating for parents, but I think it's really important to realize that our kids are going to make decisions. Some of them are going to really scare us and just stay supporting them because your parents did not say, forget it. That's the wrong thing. You're on your own. Like they stayed there. Finding that mentor that can help talk some sense into them is really big. Just staying there and supporting your kids. Because now your relationship with your parents, how is that relationship now? Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (25:03.894)

It's great. It's fantastic. And I still, I talk to my mom sometimes about like what had gone on. I think a lot of it, my husband also did the same program, which is how we met. We didn't meet while we're in the program. He did his in South Africa, like about a year later, but we were introduced to each other because of it. He had a much different experience than me. Again, I think the male experience is different. But having people and like, I don't know, jus finding people that you can talk to about it. That might not be your parents, but having parents support you and finding that too is really good.

Dr. Cam (25:40.038)

That's great. And I will attest, your mom's pretty awesome. So, she's pretty cool. So, I think that's a big thing too. Like, I can't imagine it wasn't that she did something wrong or you did anything wrong. It was just a situation where it seemed right in the moment and it turned out not so right. And you got through and I love that. So, that's really what I wanted to share with parents because I think it's just important for us to know because there's so much fear around what our kids are doing. And I think sometimes we gotta let them do it anyway, but being there and kind of having that support system there to help them through it is really good. Because I don't see how this could have been prevented.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (26:26.39)

Yeah, no, I know, because I feel like we definitely did all the right things going into it. I think just, yeah, like reiterating to your team that home, like it's okay to come home if you need to. It's okay to stay if that's what you think you need to do, but like there's nothing wrong with saying, this isn't for me, I'm gonna come home, I'm gonna try something else. And I think that goes along with like having options I think maybe one thing that would have gotten me home was like, having the option to go do something else. Like, whether that was like a volunteer trip or just traveling or whatever. Just like having options and being like, it's okay, there's no need to feel shame about your experience or anything like that. We don't even have to talk about it immediately when you get home. Counseling is a great option, but just having that support while they're there, which might be the last thing that they want to hear in the moment, but it does probably get through to them a little bit more than you would think.

Dr. Cam (27:24.582)

That's great. Sarah, thank you for jumping on and sharing your story. I really appreciate it.

Sarah Bruno-Patrey (27:27.318)

Of course

ABOUT THE SHOW:

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your essential guide to navigating the complexities of adolescence with clarity and confidence. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist, the podcast provides practical strategies and expert insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional development. Whether you're an experienced parent or just starting your journey with teens, this podcast is packed with valuable information to help you thrive.

#ReligiousTrauma #TeenMentalHealth #ParentingTeens #FaithCrisis #TeenSupport #HealingFromTrauma #CrisisOfFaith #TraumaRecovery

Is setting boundaries with your teen, especially around technology and social life, feeling like an endless battle? What if there was a way to establish clear expectations for screen time, curfews, and other hot-button issues without the yelling and power struggles?

In this episode, Dr. Cam Caswell is joined by Tia Slightham, a teacher, entrepreneur, bestselling author, and, most importantly, a mom, who truly understands the challenges parents face. Tia shares proven strategies from her "Parenting With Purpose Method" to help parents achieve peaceful communication and cooperation with their teenagers. Together, they dive into setting clear expectations and boundaries in ways that promote mutual respect—no drama required. If you’re looking to strengthen your connection with your teen while navigating tough issues, this episode is for you!

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How to establish clear expectations for your teen without causing power struggles
• Why understanding the root causes of behavior is essential for effective parenting
• Practical tips for setting boundaries that promote cooperation, not conflict
• The Behavior Needs Roadmap: A solution-focused approach to meeting your teen’s needs and teaching life skills

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Parenting is a skill set that can be learned and developed over time—it's never too late to improve your relationship with your teen.
2. Understanding the root causes of your teen’s behavior helps you address the issue, rather than just punishing the symptoms.
3. Setting boundaries with your teen in advance and involving them in the process leads to mutual respect and cooperation.
4. Teens crave authentic connection and trust with their parents. Show a genuine interest in their lives, and you’ll strengthen your bond.
5. Prevent power struggles by creating a respectful relationship where boundaries are clear and communication is consistent.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?

Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family!

Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Remember to hit Follow so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• FREE Guide: Connect in Just 10 Minutes a Day
• FREE Guide: How to Stop Yelling

EPISODE CHAPTERS:
00:00 - Parenting as a Skill Set
03:15 - Understanding the Root Causes of Behavior
07:39 - Setting Boundaries with Mutual Respect
10:46 - The Behavior Needs Roadmap
14:21 - Navigating Challenges: Phone Usage
27:20 - Engaging with Teens in Their Interests
31:37 - Building Trust and Connection through Small Conversations
34:07 - Preventing Power Struggles through Trust and Boundaries
37:40 - It’s Never Too Late to Make Change

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: TIA SLIGHTHAM

• Website: www.tiaslightham.com
• Instagram: @tiaparentingcoach
• TikTok: @parentingcoach
• YouTube: Tia Slightham - Parenting Solutions

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: DR. CAM CASWELL

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam  

Hey parents, is setting and keeping boundaries with your teen a constant battle, especially around technology and social life? You're not alone. But what if there was a way to establish clear expectations for screen time, curfews, and other hot button issues without the yelling and power struggles? That's what we're talking about in today's episode. I'm joined by a leading parenting expert, Tia Slightham. Tia, a teacher, entrepreneur, bestselling author, and most importantly, a mom, understands the challenges parents face.

She's going to share some proven strategies from our parenting with purpose method to help you achieve peaceful communication and cooperation from your teenager. Tia, welcome to the show.

Tia Slightham (00:41.153)

Thanks for having me, yeah, mom of teens, so I definitely get it.

Dr. Cam (00:44.022)

Woohoo! Yes, me too. So we live this every single day. I think it's important to know what people are going through. Not at all. So Tia, what inspired you to become a parenting coach?

Tia Slightham (00:48.545)

Thank you. Yeah, and they're not alone. They're definitely not alone. I know, people ask me this all the time and it's so funny because we're talking to our teen boys right now who are 15 and almost 13. You know, what are you interested in? What do you want to be when you grow up? And to be honest, a lot of times we just don't know what we want to be when we grow up. And so when I was younger, I knew I always wanted to work with kids. I used to take my cabbage patch doll to the movie theater and feed it and burp it and need to leave the movie to go change it. My mom would have to get up with me so I could change the diaper. I mean, I was serious. I was dead serious about being a mom and working with kids. I just always loved kids. And so I started my journey as a kindergarten teacher. I had my master's in early childhood education and I absolutely loved it. I loved all those little five -year -olds and a lot of people hated being kindergarten teachers, but I loved it. And as time went on, I never knew that I would fall into this parent coaching role. It just happened. I ended up having kids of my own. I met my husband. I'm from the States. He's from Canada.

I moved to Canada, I wasn't legal to work, so I could no longer teach, and then I ended up becoming a mom, and again was fascinated by the fact that I loved being a mom. I loved the baby stage, I loved the toddler stage, but those around me, just like the kindergarten teachers, were struggling. They didn't love it. They were exhausted, their kids weren't sleeping, there were tantrums and meltdowns, and everything felt really hard. And I really reflected on why classrooms fantastic year after year and why are my two boys so great to be around? What am I doing that other people aren't doing? And that's when I really realized parenting is so much a skill set and not something that's intuitive and you're not supposed to have it figured out. And if you don't have it figured out, it's okay. Don't beat yourself up, but you are capable of learning the skills. And I just became super passionate and I built my business and I love what I get to do every day.

Dr. Cam (02:53.462)

It's so important to realize it is a skill set and just because we don't have them now doesn't mean we can't get them. And guess what? Raising a teenager is a whole new skill set. It is not. The skills we used and developed earlier on don't work anymore. In fact, they backfire. And so now we got a whole new skill set to develop.

Tia Slightham (03:15.777)

Yeah, it's really understanding. I always say to parents why the behaviors are happening in the first place, whether they're toddlers or teens. If you don't know why they're back talking, why they're pushing back, why they're resentful or in revenge mode, and you're just trying to force them to stop doing those things instead of going to the root of the why, it doesn't matter the age of your child, you're always going to struggle. So learning that skill set to understand why is so critical.

Dr. Cam (03:44.15)

Tia, let's get into this because I mean, I work with parents as well and it seems so easy to say to do that. And yet I see time and again, parents, even after we've had a whole conversation about it, fall right back into the blaming their kid, you need to do this, that attitude is bad, that's not okay, you just need to stop. And it just escalates so quickly.

How do we change our mindset from a, I don't accept that behavior from my kid, that's not okay, I just have to put an end to it, to a, I need to understand this behavior if I'm actually going to find a solution to stop it.

Tia Slightham (04:26.145)

I was actually just doing a training before this and we were talking about the idea that insanity, the definition is doing the same thing over and over, but it not working and not getting any different results. That's parenting. Literally we're just parenting, doing the same things over and over, hoping our kids are gonna change.

Dr. Cam (04:36.534)

Yeah, that's also parenting. We do. Getting mad at them for not changing even.  

Tia Slightham (04:47.905)

Yes, and saying, I told you 92 times, you obviously speak English, we're both logical here, you know better, but they still don't do what you ask them to do. And what I always say to parents is that it's not about that simple tip or trick that you listen to on a podcast or a video or YouTube or in a parenting book. It's all the pieces of the puzzle. And so when we say, we go to bed at night in tears, tomorrow I'm not gonna yell, tomorrow I'm gonna be calm, tomorrow I'm gonna show up and really respond to my kids without reaction. You mean that, you want that, but it's not possible to do without all the pieces of the puzzle. And so inside, when I work with parents inside my coaching program, I've developed a system known as the behavior needs roadmap. And this is BNR for short, but it's helping parents differentiate and determine have I met the needs for my kids from a basic standpoint of sleep, nutrition, security, transitions? Have I met the needs from an emotional standpoint? Are my kids power and attention buckets or cups full each and every day? Do I know how to do that? And most importantly in the third box, do I have the skills needed to parent with discipline and not punishment? So, I know it's such a big one.

Dr. Cam (06:07.094)

People struggle between even separating those two. I think we all, consequences too, like I feel like consequences is now this new word that we use to say we're not punishing it, but it's punishment. Let's be real, because we only do negative consequences. So it's another form of punishment.

Tia Slightham (06:23.137)

Yeah, if you don't know how to set them up properly, for sure you're falling back into the punishment trap.

Dr. Cam (06:28.342)

This is one of the biggest challenges. And I know when you go into these different areas, and I think one of the struggles that we have is when our kids become teenagers, what fills their power and need and behavior buckets is very, very different than it was when they were little. And we keep trying to do what we did when they were little and don't understand why they're getting angry and upset and not listening and ignoring us and talking back and giving a slip and that's not okay. So how do we establish boundaries if we're not punishing them when they break them?

Tia Slightham (07:10.881)

So the idea is that we want to teach our kids to do better next time. And we actually have to teach our kids how to do better next time. We want to stop the unwanted behavior. All those things are facts. But the challenge is typically our child has an unwanted behavior and our mindset and our paradigm is do something wrong, you need to suffer. Do something wrong, you need to learn a hard lesson. And a lot of that's because that's how we were raised and we don't know any different.

But if we really step back and we say to ourselves, has there ever been a time in your life where another adult, a boss or a partner or a friend yelled and screamed at you or got mad at you or threatened you and you stood up and were like, yeah, you know what? Tomorrow I'm going to do better. I'm going to change.

Dr. Cam (07:54.23)

I feel so motivated and I love that boss so much. I respect that boss so much. No. Yeah.

Tia Slightham (07:58.753)

Yeah, I want to really do well. Yeah, we don't we say screw you. I don't like you. You're an awful person. I don't want to be around you. And now that's what we're doing with our parenting to our kids. We're yelling and we're demanding and we're overpowering. And then we want them to show up and do better, but we're not actually setting them up to do better. And we're not teaching them any skills to do better. So the key is that when we set boundaries and this is a tricky thing for parents too. We usually say boundaries, we don't set boundaries and when we say boundaries we've repeated ourselves 92 times and yes they speak English and yes maybe they heard us one of the 92 times but we're not setting boundaries and in order to set boundaries in a way that's not punishment so that we're having mutual respect is to do everything in advance.

So the idea isn't that your kids come home and you just now get to say, you do your homework or you're not gonna have any TV time. That's you calling all the shots. That's you overpowering your kids and your kids saying, screw you. But if in advance you set a boundary and I think about it as three key parts. One, identify what your boundaries are. Like what do you really want that situation to look like? What do you need your kids to do from start to finish and lay those out, bring your kids on board, especially with teens and older kids, you know, sitting down with them and saying, hey, I need you to come in the door and we need to do homework first before we move to our devices. So how much time do you think you need? 30 minutes or 40 minutes? 40 minutes or an hour? Like give your kids some power, give them some control. Sit down with them, have a conversation, lay out the plan and teach, train and practice for number two. And I know sometimes parents are like, well, my teens don't really need to practice. My teens understand what I'm saying.

When I say teach, train and practice, I mean, you've got to pretend like they don't speak your language. Like they're coming from another country and you've got a foreign exchange student and you're going to walk through that plan because otherwise your boundaries are in your mind. They're not on the table and you're expecting your kids to do what you want them to do without really showing them. And then the third part for boundary setting is what is your follow through when they don't do that plan what happens when you set it up that way. What we've done is we've said, great, we've got a plan. We're on the same team. We're on the same page. When you do X, Y can be the outcome, which you love. Or when you choose not to do X, Y is not available, but it's totally in your court. You get to decide. Now it's not us saying, well, you didn't do your homework. You don't get this. We actually have a plan in place and we're giving our kids autonomy and power and independence to do what feels good so they like the outcome versus not.

Dr. Cam (10:50.582)

There's so much important stuff about this and it sounds very logical hearing it. And I think what happens is people go, okay, and then they go home and they're like, I don't understand. So let's walk some like, walk through some very common situations where parents struggle to establish and even more so enforce or maintain boundaries. So a big one is using the phone, particularly with teenagers using the phone at night or too much. How do we set a boundary around the phone where we're not going to have a power struggle and fight every single night?

Tia Slightham (11:32.065)

So yes, we have to talk about that. But before we even get into that, we have to remind ourselves if we haven't learned how to avoid the punishments and we're still yelling and taking things away and engaging in power struggles and trying to over control your child, when you go to set that boundary, they're not gonna wanna follow through for you. They're not gonna wanna respect you. And so that's where all the pieces of the puzzle are so critical and looking at that behavior needs roadmap to set your child up for success so they can cooperate in those moments is critical. So if you take what we're talking about today, if you're listening and you try and implement and you're like, but it didn't really work the way I wanted it to work, ask yourself, do I feel like I'm still punishing? Am I still engaging in power struggles? Because then that's where we wanna dig deeper and do some work. Surface implementations are tricky if we don't have those root things resolved, okay? 

Yeah. And people will often go, I tried it once, it didn't work. So I'm going back to the way that I've been doing it for years. That doesn't work. And it's been making things worse. So I think it's not going to likely work the first time for multiple reasons. First of all, you're still developing the skill, so you're not great at it. And second of all, your teen also has habits that need to break and they're used to it. And they have to trust you. They have to trust you. And right now they don't. They don't trust you because maybe you live in what we call the gray zone, where sometimes you give in and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you yell and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you're patient, sometimes you're not. And so our kids have a hard time trusting us. And because they're born with those two predetermined jobs to please you and to push boundaries until boundaries are found, if you're in the gray zone and you're inconsistent with your boundaries, of course, you're not going to be able to do that they're pushing you and pushing you. So it takes time to keep setting and setting boundaries consistently so we can build that trust back.

Dr. Cam (13:26.518)

What's important here too, and what I think is very different with teenagers as well is those boundaries, we have to be very, very clear, even to ourselves, because all us parents, and they can't explain why that boundary is there at all. I'm like, well, if you can explain it, how are you teaching your teen why that's a necessary boundary? And now they don't trust you because they don't understand why that boundary just feels like control, nothing else.

We need to be clear and we also need to continuously adapt as our kids shows, I'm okay in this boundary because we're learning them. So let's go now, we've laid out that. So now let's go. Our teen, we have told them over and over again, do not use your phone at night. And it is either I take it away and they get really upset or I don't take it away and they look at it all night long. How do I establish this boundary without a fight every night?

Tia Slightham (14:21.409)

Yeah, so we're going to go back to that three step plan and let's like put that in play. So we need to identify, we call it three C's boundaries. So yes, you mentioned it being very clear. We call it concrete, clear and consistent. What are those three C's boundaries that we need our kids to follow? So I use my own kids for an example, 15 and almost 13. My fifth, they're both into Snapchat and all the things and they want to be on their phone and I want them to socialize and I want them to be able to create their own social plans. And I think all of that is positive when we have boundaries around it. And so in our house, our boundaries that are concrete, clear and consistent are, you know, I know where each of them plug their phones in at night and where that is out of their rooms downstairs. I need their iPads and their computers, invisible site the top of the stairs so that I'm not searching for them and when I see them sitting there and the phones are plugged in, we're good. We've got our plan in place. I don't want any devices in their rooms after a certain time. My 15 year old has a different time than my almost 13 year old. We've sat down, we've had the conversations about where those devices need to go, what time those devices need to come out, that I'm not going to give reminders for the devices. If I just don't see it at the top of the stairs, I'm not searching for it. That means I'm assuming it's in your room.

So we're really putting the control on our kids to say, do I have the self -management skills to put the things where they need to go? Can I handle these devices? Can I handle having boundaries around these devices? And then letting them know in advance what will happen when those devices aren't in those right spots. Or you come out of your room 10 minutes later than we talked about that it's an automatic, this is what will happen, we don't even need to talk about it because they know and I know. This is where you decrease the yelling and the anger and the you're taking things away from me, you're trying to control me. When you set it up like this, because it's now, shoot, you're right, I did come out of my room 10 minutes late. Shoot, you're right, I didn't plug my phone in. Instead of you doing everything to your kids, they're making choices for themselves. And then for us, our follow through is that when those things don't follow through, then the next day, we're a tech -free day. You can take your computer to school for when you need it, but you know what? I'll keep your phone for the day. It's a want to have, it's not a need to have. I know you love it, but it'll just be mine for the day and we'll reset. If parents are really struggling, their kids are like, well, I don't care if I lose it for a day. And we have to really think about what they're motivated by. If your kids, most of them are motivated by device and not to have it for a day is a bummer. But if they're not then you need to look at what their true motivation is when you set up your follow through or your positive discipline consequence. Does that make sense?

Dr. Cam (17:10.998)

Completely. And I think the other thing, and I want to get your opinion on this because I think one of the things I see that happens a lot is when we set that boundary up or that rule up, we set it up based on our perspective and our need and our solution. And especially when kids are older, if we're not taking into account their needs and they're a solution that actually works for them, a lot of times our solutions are counter to what their needs are, they're not, they're going to have a fit. They're not going to listen. And then it sounds like, this kid's a pain in the butt and he just wants what he wants. But he does want what he wants. We all want what we want. But if he's getting that upset, he's not getting something really important. It could be, yes, the phone, but what is it about the phone that's so important? And we need to understand that, right?

Tia Slightham (18:05.569)

Yeah, we have to see things from their perspective. And that's where I say involve your kids in your conversations when you're setting the boundaries. So my kids have always gone to bed early and way earlier than all their friends because I know how important sleep is. And I know that they show up and they listen and they cooperate and they do well at school and they feel better when they get to sleep. And a lot of times our teens don't think they need sleep. But if you're waking your kids up every single morning for school and dragging them out of bed they are not getting enough sleep and a lot of your power struggles are stemming from that need not being met on that roadmap. So a lot of times what happens is we are, we're setting boundaries for what our kids need, because we actually do, I mean, I hate to say it, but we know a little bit more than them, but it's not maybe what they want. And so when we think about what they want versus what they need. That's where we need to meet them in the middle a little bit. And that's where communication is key. And if we're really engaging in power struggles and anger with our teens, they're not gonna wanna open up to you. They're gonna feel overpowered or they're gonna be in trouble or you're gonna take something away. So if I look at Hudson, who's my 15 year old and we talk about what happened with their early bedtimes, he came to me and he said, mommy, I am, he still calls me mommy though, but mommy, I am 15 and I think I could stay up a little bit later.

I think I could and I don't want to sneak my device, but I do want to stay up a little bit later. What do you think? And I thought, you know what? Thank you for coming to me. Let's talk about it. What, what do you think? I think, why don't you, you know, bring your device out around 10 or 1015. You decide some nights we might have to do it earlier if we've had some big function happening, but for the most part that should work. And as long as it's out on the landing at 10 or 1015, let's do that. Does that feel good? Yeah, I like that. Okay, great.

So little brother doesn't know that's happening. He goes to bed, he's fine. And big brother gets to have that independence and autonomy. But I had to think about, yeah, he does want to stay up a little later. He can manage that. And I want him to know he can come to me and I'm going to work with him within reason. Now the conversation was, if we start to see, you know, spiral in schoolwork, you're feeling exhausted, you're really irritable and moody and you can't really handle it.

We might need to back it back up. So these are the things I'm looking for. So he knew it's worked out great. It's been fantastic. He feels heard. I feel seen. Everybody's happy.

Dr. Cam (20:29.174)

It's important that we're including the kids in this. And I know there is still people holding very strongly to kind of the beliefs of what were when we were younger. Like, I'm the parent, I'm the authority, I don't need to deal with whatever you have to say is not important. I know best, I'm just gonna take it. It's okay to do that if you are okay with the fact that you're not gonna have a connection, they're gonna fight back, and you're not gonna actually teach them any skills. That's fine, like go for it. But I think it's really important to realize we know now because we've evolved, just like physical health and everything else, we've learned so much more on how to take care of ourselves and how much better to interact with our kids to teach them the skills.

I want to throw that out there because I know there's people that are just not even open to it and it's going to take time. But one of the things I think parents really struggle with with this when it comes to boundaries is that line between being like the authority and this is it and just listen to me and being passive and just going, okay, whatever you need, we're just going to listen to you. And we kind of...

pendulum swing between the two and neither work well. How do we find this middle? What does a boundary look like in the middle?

Tia Slightham (21:57.601)

So we're kind of we're stuck in what we call either being the overpowering tiger where your kids need to listen to you because you said so or the wet doormat where your kids just walk all over you and you're right neither of them work and then we want to get to that positive discipline parent where we have mutual respect and so the boundary looks like we talked about in advance, bringing your kids on board, having conversations with them, hearing out what they need, what their wants are, meeting them in the middle where it makes sense, building that open line of communication so you're not just saying it's this way or the highway, but really bringing them on board. And I think what happens is parents are afraid to bring their kids on board because they're afraid they're going to lose control. But what we don't realize is we've already lost control if you're yelling and screaming and trying to force your kids.

Dr. Cam (22:51.098)

And like you said, we're not actually teaching them any skills or we're teaching even worse, we're teaching them the skill of here's how you get what you get your way. You yell and scream until we give in. And that is not a great skill to take out into the world. Like that's what we're teaching.

Tia Slightham (23:09.185)

Yeah, and if you think about Hudson with his iPad, there were a lot of skills that were taught. He was taught that when he does the things that we talk about and we build trust, he gets more independence, he gets more freedom, more time on his phone, that he's managing the clock and watching that on his own, even if he's in the middle of something that he's enjoying, that he can have that freedom. He's learning that when I choose not to do that Gosh, things don't work out the way that I want them to work out, but when I make a better choice, it does. Whereas if you just yell and scream and take the device and say, that's it, you're done, I've already asked you 92 times to get off of it, we actually didn't teach any of those things.

Dr. Cam (23:47.878)

Right. And we actually just made them want it more. So now it's just become an even more desirable thing and we've become the enemy. So I think...

Tia Slightham (23:57.633)

And part of them wanting it more is the fact that they're looking for something and someone to bond and connect with. And with teens, I know as a teen mom, it's very scary, the internet and phones, and they're talking to people from all over in different schools. And the idea is that if we don't build a strong bonding connection with our kids where they feel like they trust us and they can lean on us and they're not afraid of us they're gonna look for that in other places that are not healthy places. And so I think our kids who are so addicted to phones, it's because they're missing a really strong bond and connection with their parents. And I know a lot of parents are probably saying right now, well, my teen wants nothing to do with me. My teen doesn't wanna talk to me. They don't like me. They say they hate me. They want to connect with you so desperately, but they don't know how. And as parents, we have to say, I'm not gonna wait around for my teen to figure out how to make this right. They are the child. I need to figure out how to make this right.

Dr. Cam (24:58.422)

We know nothing else works without connection and trust. It just doesn't. Like you know, it does not work without it. And trust is not something you can say, hey kid, trust me. That does not work. I've never seen that work, nor respect. Fear and respect, not the same thing, right? Trust and respect is something that you earn and grow over time. And how we do that is by trusting and respecting them which a lot of parents just don't feel comfortable doing. So explain to me a little bit on how do you start building that trust with a kid that right now wants nothing to do with you and has no trust in you and you do not trust anything they say or do either. Because I hear this a lot.

Tia Slightham (25:51.713)

Hmm. Yeah. So we have to start small and we have to remove the pressure. So a lot of times what we think is that we talk about how our kids need to be connected to us, but more so than anything, we also really need to be connected to our kids. Parents feel so down and sad and regretful and shame and empty when you don't feel like you have a relationship with your kids. So as much as they need us, we also need them. And so we have to remember, look at the whole picture and say, gosh, we've been in this combative state. Like I wouldn't want to hang out with me either. Like I wouldn't want to really be my friend right now either. So how can I dip my toe back in and sort of open things up with them? So we've got to get to a place where I always say to parents, start working on one area. So if you're going to start setting boundaries, choose one area. It's morning routines, it's devices. Maybe it's coming home from school and your homework routines. You're not going to fix everything at once or not ripping the carpet out. So choose one area that you might want to focus on when you start to build those boundaries, but at the same time, build your relationship. So what I mean is we do what's called golden time. It's like a five ingredient formula and every, you know, psychologist and doctor and teacher and parenting expert does some sort of form of this where they want you to spend quality time with your kids. I mean, it makes perfect sense. So I want you just to carve out, even if it's five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. where you show interest in your teenager. And that interest might be where you say, can you show me, let's do that TikTok dance together. Like I'm terrible at those things. My rhythm is not what my 13 year olds is. But you know what? It's pretty fun to sit down and do it together and they giggle with you and they laugh at you. It might be, hey, let me play that NASCAR game with you and show me, how do I even use this remote? Show interest in what they're interested in because most of the time what they think is the things they like are the things we hate, the things we don't want them on, the things we don't want them to do. And so they feel no connection or sort of a sense of alignment with us. So I want you to think about engaging with them in something that they're interested in. They will be so pleased to see that you are interested in something they're interested in.

Dr. Cam (28:10.294)

There are several points I just want to reiterate because it's so important. The first one is they do want to connect with you. I mean, years and years and years of talking to teens, every single one wants a connection with their parent, but not in the way that we're insisting we have it. I think that's part of it is that they want a connection with us in a real authentic connection, not in a mom and dad define what we do, what it looks like, how I have to act, when you define everything and it's a controlled situation that fits your needs, your kid wants nothing to do with it. So if you want to connect with your teen exactly what you said, be interested in what they're interested in. It is like magic. Magic. my gosh.

Tia Slightham (28:57.473)

their eyes will light up. They will look at you like you have nine heads. Like, what? you're interested in this?

Dr. Cam (29:04.918)

It's so fun and I love talking to teens and you just kind of throw out different ideas and just see what lights them up. It's just like you said, it's like throw a few things out and you'll see because they'll latch onto it and then they can just go when you find the right thing.

Tia Slightham (29:17.441)

Hmm, something as simple as would you like to walk to Starbucks? You know, like it's amazing the conversations I have when I take the dog and I invite one of my kids and say, let's walk to ice cream or walk to Starbucks. Like maybe it's, maybe it's ice cream. If they're not interested in Starbucks, most of the kids are like, yeah, let's go do that. but we've got to get to a place where they feel like when they go for that walk, it's not going to be your opportunity to corner them into all the things they're doing wrong, but it's just a free flowing conversation and once you start, a lot of times people will say, well, my teens shut down. My teens won't open up. My teens don't want to talk, but we're not giving them the right place and time and environment to allow them to open up. Last night we were at dinner, the four of us and both my boys are really getting into the girls and the dating and this is a whole new world for me. So I brought up with my younger one, how so and so doing? And he said, well,

I actually want to talk to you when you tuck me in tonight because we have really good chats then and I said, is it kind of private? And he said, yeah. And I said, okay, let's talk about it then. I thought how amazing that he knows what time of day is going to be a time that he can kind of off leash his thoughts and his feelings and come to me for advice and an ear to listen. And so it might be car rides for some kids. I always say before bed is a great time. My kids love their backs scratched. I lay down and scratch their back. We talk for a few minutes. It's not a, I'm not singing songs anymore and I'm not reading fairy tales. I wish I was, but we're scratching backs and we're talking, but they know that there's times on the walk or before bed that it's going to be a one -on -one opportunity for them to feel safe. And I think as parents, we need to carve out those times, whether you have younger kids or teens so your kids know that you're available and that you really want to be with them.

Dr. Cam (31:08.374)

Yeah, this requires a lot of patience because parents may listen and go, okay, today I'm going to invite them to Starbucks and this is going to be great. Chances are great that they might say no, that if they even said yes, they're not going to say a word to you. That is okay. You've made the first step. Keep inviting them. Keep having really teeny short little blips of conversations where it doesn't go south fast. Right?

Tia Slightham (31:20.641)

Yes And don't make it personal when they shut you down.

Dr. Cam (31:39.894)

No, not at all. Not at all. And I think that's what's really hard too, is it's very, very difficult for us to not take it personally. We're like, my gosh, what it... And it is, it's a matter of they are very concerned about our judgment. They are very concerned about getting our approval or not getting it. And so it's easier just to not do anything than to risk getting a disappointed look or lecture. And I think we get stuck there a lot.

Tia Slightham (32:10.145)

Yeah, and when you start, if they take an inch and they come in and they allow you to go for that walk or they just remind yourself that just listening is like the best thing you can do in that moment. You don't have to give your opinion. You don't need to come in hard and strong. Just listen. And it's amazing what they'll start to open up with when you just keep trying, pressure free, keep inviting, keep carving out time and keep your ears open.

Dr. Cam (32:40.406)

I want to circle this back to the boundaries and the power struggles and just be very help people tie what we're talking about to that. The whole point of this is when we have those trusting, respectful relationships with our kids and we set boundaries with them for their safety and we're clear with them, they don't fight back to that point. They may say, I disagree and can we listen and you talk about it and you figure it out, but you don't have those knockout, drag down power struggles anymore because they trust you. So building those relationships, that is what removes the need for the power struggles and the need for the frustration. They're not listening to me.

Tia Slightham (33:35.329)

Because deep down the why behind the behavior, why they're power struggling so much is those power and attention needs, that relationship, that bond is not met. Or our parenting is inconsistent and we're gray. Or we're giving in sometimes, or we're yelling, or we're overpowering. So all of those little pieces are why they give you such a hard time when you try and set a boundary. And when we can start to build that relationship and that trust, they're not doing it to get back at you anymore. It no longer becomes about you and your child. It becomes about the phone or the homework or the issue that you're dealing with. Whereas right now, for most parents, it's about you two instead of the actual issue itself.

Dr. Cam (34:20.598)

Yeah, it really is because when that's taken care of and the thing is, you're still going to have issues. Kids are still going to have, do things that you're like, that was not a good decision. You're still going to disagree with things. The thing is when you have that foundation, it's not that big a deal. Like you deal with it, you connect over it, you talk about it, you move through it and you're done with it and you're more connected before. And the two of us are both

parents of teenagers and so we're speaking from actual experience. Like this is how we live. Like I do not have power struggles with my teenager, but she is extremely respectful and responsible and participates in the house and does all the things with no arguing.

Tia Slightham (35:10.273)

because you're meeting all those needs and you're starting that relationship. We were driving to school the other day and I said to the boys, I'm just gonna lay it out for you guys, just so you know. You're teenagers, which means you're gonna make a lot of really stupid decisions. I know it. Like I did it, I was a teenager. I know. I said my job is to help you make the smartest of the bad decisions, the smartest of the stupid decisions.

Dr. Cam (35:11.702)

because we are very connected and she trusts me. I still do Tia. I still make dumbest decisions.

Tia Slightham (35:39.585)

So when I'm talking to you about things, it's only so that I can help you because your logical brain, you're not developed to where you're gonna be and as adults, we're still learning. So think about where you're at. But I just want you to know that I'm not here to make you feel badly about your decisions. I'm not here to make you feel badly about your mistakes. I just wanna help you learn from them because there's gonna be a lot of bad decisions, because that's what happens as we're growing up. It's how you learn. But I think having our kids know that is also important because a lot of times our teens in particular really fear letting us down. They fear getting in trouble. They fear that they can't please us in any way because we're always so angry with them. And I think that goes back to that connection and trust, but it's also connected like a giant spider web.

Dr. Cam (36:13.718)

Yeah, it really is. And I think starting right there with if you are constantly angry at your teenager, that's the place you need to start because you need to think through that anger because approaching your child in anger or viewing everything they do through that lens of anger will not build a connection because now you have this big barrier up and you just can't, you can't see through it. And that is so incredibly hard to do. None of this is easy. It is worthwhile though. my gosh, it is so worthwhile for you and for your kid. So Tia, what is like one big takeaway that you want parents to walk away with from this episode?

Tia Slightham (37:03.009)

Yep, absolutely. That it's never too late. And so often we say, well, my child's a preteen or a teen and there's no way we're gonna be able to make changes. I've already damaged my child. I've already created too much trauma. Our relationship's already shot and everything is fixable and it's never too late. And if your child is 16, 17, 18, they're still only been in this world 16, 17, 18 years. They're still little. They still have so much life to live. And if you want to build that relationship with your kids, you can turn things around with the skill set, with the tools, with the foundations.

Dr. Cam (37:47.478)

Yeah, one of the fastest ways to do that is to apologize. Because if we just say, hey, I, looking back, I'm not thrilled with the way I handled this. I know that we caused, I caused some chaos and some conflict and I, it's not the best. Because when we do that, sometimes the kids hold grudges for so long because they just are waiting for that one word, two words, I'm sorry. That's all they need to hear and all of a sudden so much of it can be pushed in the past and we can move forward if we're willing to look at that. I think that's it.

Tia Slightham (38:22.849)

Yeah, and that repair piece is so important. But one of the pieces that I really want to emphasize to parents is you can apologize and repair, but then what we want to role model with that is that we're going to do something different next time. Because a lot of times we say sorry for yelling and exploding, but the next day we just yell and explode again. So again, we lose trust because our apology is kind of meaningless.

Dr. Cam (38:43.126)

We do it again.

Tia Slightham (38:48.353)

So if you're really wanting to make changes, you do want to apologize and take ownership to your actions and your behaviors. But then you need to say to your kids, but hey, I'm working with a psychologist or a coach or I'm taking this program because I actually want to learn how to do things differently because I want to be the parent here. And it's not your responsibility, it's mine. But that takes learning the skills and it's not something you can just go to bed at night and say tomorrow will be better. You have to actually get guidance.

Dr. Cam (39:07.926)

Yeah, it is like any other task or job or anything we do, we need to learn it to get better at it and practice it to get better at it. Tia, how do people find you?

Tia Slightham (39:29.665)

gosh, I would say Instagram's probably the easiest place. I'm at Tia Parenting Coach and there's tons of videos and trainings and support there. And they can definitely DM me from there or they're welcome to go to my website, tiaslitem .com.

Dr. Cam (39:45.43)

I love it. Tia, thank you so much for jumping on with us today. I appreciate it.

Tia Slightham (39:48.513)

Yeah, I could chat for days with you, so we'll do it again.

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth.

Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together.

#theteentranslator #drcamcaswell #parentingteenswithdrcam #parenting #teenboundaries #teencommunication

Is your teen's emotional meltdown leaving you feeling overwhelmed and powerless? You're not alone—73% of parents face this challenge. But what if you could learn how to de-escalate these situations and strengthen your bond with your teen?

In this episode, I’m joined by Karleen Savage, a former hostage negotiator and conflict resolution expert. Karleen now helps parents like you master the art of diffusing teen meltdowns and creating calm, cooperative interactions.

She shares proven strategies to navigate your teen's intense emotions with confidence, build trust, and create a positive environment that helps your teen thrive.

4 KEY TAKEWAYS FOR PARENTS:

1. Learn how to de-escalate conflicts by understanding your teen's perspective and avoiding assumptions.
2. Use open-ended questions and active listening to connect with your teen’s needs and emotions.
3. Build a stronger relationship with your teen by showing empathy, owning up to mistakes, and fostering trust.
4. Discover how parents can handle challenging moments with confidence, creating a respectful and supportive relationship.

ENJOYING THE SHOW?

Help others discover this episode by leaving a rating and review! Your feedback means the world to me and allows us to bring even more valuable insights to parents like you.

Don’t forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫 

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• FREE digital download of Karleen’s book, The Confident Teen Blueprint

Connect with Karleen:

• Facebook: @KarleenSavage
• Instagram: @KarleenSavage
  LinkedIn: Karleen Savage

Connect with Dr. Cam:

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your essential guide to navigating the complexities of adolescence with clarity and confidence. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist, the podcast provides practical strategies and expert insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional development. Whether you're an experienced parent or just starting your journey with teens, this podcast is packed with valuable information to help you thrive.

#TeenParenting #TeenConflictResolution #ParentingTips #TeenEmotions #ParentingTeenagers #DeescalatingTeenAnger #ParentingExpert #FamilyDynamics #TeenMeltdowns #ConflictManagement

In this episode of Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam, we’re joined by Ali Flynn, the founder of Hang In There Mama. Ali shares invaluable insights on how moms can find peace and joy in their motherhood journey while overcoming feelings of guilt. If you're a mom feeling overwhelmed or guilty, this episode is a must-listen!

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How to overcome mom guilt and unrealistic expectations
• Why self-care and self-love are crucial for moms raising teens
• Practical tips for finding moments of quiet and decompressing as a busy mom
• How to let go of excessive worrying and trust your teen’s abilities

5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS

1. Moms often feel alone and not good enough, but remember, you're not alone—many other moms are navigating the same struggles.
2. Guilt in motherhood stems from societal expectations of perfection, but it’s time to let go of comparing yourself to others.
3. Prioritize self-care and self-love to feel fulfilled and be a positive role model for your children.
4. Simple self-care activities, like deep breathing or taking a walk, can help you decompress and recharge.
5. Let go of excessive worrying about your teen’s choices and trust in their ability to grow and learn independently.

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?

Don’t keep it to yourself! Share your favorite episode and leave a rating and review to help other parents find the support they need. Your feedback helps me create even more episodes filled with practical tips for you and your family!

Thanks so much for your support! 🙏💫

🔔 Remember to hit SUBSCRIBE so you never miss another solution-packed episode! 🙌

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• Hang in There, Mama 6-WEEK GRATITUDE JOURNAL for MOMS RAISING TWEENS, TEENS, and YOUNG ADULTS!

EPISODE CHAPTERS:
00:00 - Finding Peace and Joy in Motherhood
04:34 - Overcoming Mom Guilt and Unrealistic Expectations
08:15 - The Importance of Self-Care and Self-Love
12:26 - Practical Tips for Prioritizing Self-Care
26:29 - Letting Go of Excessive Worrying

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Ali Flynn

• Website: Hang in There Mama
• Instagram: @hang.in.there.mama
• Facebook: @hangintheremama

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

• Website: AskDrCam.com
• Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
• TikTok: @the.teen.translator
• YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
• Facebook: @DrCamCaswell

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (00:00):
Hey parents, ever feel completely drained like there's nothing left in the tank for you or your kids, but the idea of me time triggers guilt? You're not alone. A whopping 80 % of moms wrestle with this, but what if we could ditch the guilt and find peace and joy in motherhood? That's exactly what we're tackling today. I'm joined by Ali Flynn, the mastermind behind Hang In There Mama. Ali understands the unique challenges of raising teens. We're going to get into real actionable tips to help you ditch the guilt and carve out moments to recharge even with your crazy schedule. Because guess what? A happy, healthy you means a happier, healthier family. Allie, welcome to the show.

Ali Flynn (00:41.198):
Thank you so much. It's such an honor to be on with you.

Dr. Cam (00:44.017):
First I want to hear what inspired you to launch Hang in there, Mama.

Ali Flynn (00:51.15):
Honestly, it really came down to I wanted to share with people all of the encouragement and inspiration that I really wanted to hear myself, that I wasn't hearing all the time. I felt really alone at times in my motherhood journey. I felt really lost. I felt not good enough. I didn't sometimes know what I was doing, but I felt like we're in this perfection mode of being a mom and how do I actually offer that honesty up to people. And I just wanted moms to know that you are not the only one, you are not alone in this. We are all sort of struggling along this journey at times. And you know, you don't have to feel lost within it.

Dr. Cam (01:35.665):
Yeah, I think it's so important and I love that you're putting out there that support because you're absolutely right. And I think especially when our kids get into the teen years, we feel the most isolated because I think there's this belief that we should have it figured out by now. So we're afraid to ask for help, but raising teens is not raising kids. It's a whole new skill set.
And so asking for help, I think realizing other people are struggling with it gives us permission to ask for help. Are you finding that?

Ali Flynn (02:10.286):
Exactly, exactly. And I feel like you're spot on with that in the sense of a lot of moms when they enter the teen years with their kids, they completely hibernate, they retreat, they stop sharing, they stop talking. Oftentimes, you know, it's that tween years of entering the middle school time where you're not at the elementary school anymore, you're not at the bus stop, you're not at the birthday parties. So you lose some of the engagement unless you have sort of created a sort of a basis of friends and a network that you can rely on. But then if you don't have that, you sort of feel alone, but you also don't feel comfortable sharing everything and being honest. And then you have sort of part two, which is as our teens grow up you want to give them their privacy, right? When they're little and they're not reaching milestones, you can sort of share that information. But now you have teenagers and what are parents going to maybe share with their teen and then it gets throughout the school. And so it just becomes this vicious cycle at times. So sort of knowing that other people are going through it and really believing that allows you to be more transparent and get the support you need.

Dr. Cam (03:13.649):
Absolutely. It’s a fine line because you do want whatever your team tells you and whatever's going with your team to be confidential between you and your team, but how do you get help that way? So how do you find a safe network of people that you can trust with that information that can give you that insight back that's not going to feel like you're betraying your teenager? Like it is, it's this whole complicated thing.
What's interesting when you're describing what moms do, particularly, and we're particularly talking about moms, because I think we burden a lot of the guilt, which I'm still confused why we get more guilt, but I think that's just mom, women in general, like to take on guilt. But it's interesting the way you were describing what moms do is exactly how we describe what our teens are doing, where we're like hibernating and we're hiding, and it's that same sense of just protection. So.

Ali Flynn (04:17.74):
Exactly.

Dr. Cam (04:18.673):
Now we're going and saying, hey, you're not alone. That doesn't relieve our guilt and it doesn't make our lives less crazy so that we can take care of ourselves. So let's talk about first the guilt. Where does this guilt come from?

Ali Flynn (04:34.926):
I truly believe it comes from everything that we are being fed through society. We as moms are being fed that we have to be perfect. We have to have everything aligned. We have to know at all moments, every single day, 365 days a year, what we are doing and know with complete trust that we are doing the right thing.
And it's just unrealistic. It's an unrealistic expectation on women, on mothers. It's an unrealistic expectation for our children to think that we're perfect. So I think it becomes this trap of we are fed this through what we read, what we see on TV, what we see in movies. So how do you get out of it?
Right. And then you go down that path and that rabbit hole of comparing yourself to other moms, comparing yourself to what you see on social media as you're scrolling. And it just, it's such an unhealthy concept that we have to get out of. And I think the only way to get out of it is by really being open and honest with each other as moms and, you know, letting go of some of that protective barrier and saying like, this is what I'm going through or am I the only one? And see sort of what happens and sort of create that village for yourself of moms who are willing to be transparent.

Dr. Cam (06:02.225):
I think a lot of parents think that what they're going through is completely unique. And yet I'm sure you hear this too, but in what I do, I hear the same concerns and complaints and worries over and over and over again. And so because they are common struggles that we have at this stage because of the stage and because of just what you said is this view of what that's supposed to look like. And I think, I always talk about we're concerned about the impact of comparison and social media on our kids. And I keep seeing that. I think it has more negative impact on us as parents on our expectations down to our kids. Because I have parents all the time tell me, well, everyone else has a, no, they don't. They do not have it figured out. But then we put down those expectations and expect our kids to be a certain way which then changes how we parent because we don't have the ability to be as compassionate because we're more fearful. Do you see that as well?

Ali Flynn (07:04.558):
Right. You know, and I see we're comparing ourselves in so many ways, just like our teens are doing, right? So moms are comparing what we look like to how we're behaving, to what vacations are we going on? How are we incorporating fun into our kids' worlds, right? But we're forgetting that this is just a presence. This is not reality. This is what people put out there isn't truth all the time, right? So why are we sucking down that trap that we don't want our kids to go down, right? So it's sort of like we need to get our self together and recognize this so we can model it for our own kids.

Dr. Cam (07:39.409):
I think the other thing that we juggle is this, you know, this good enough mom, which I think there's this falsehood that that just means we kind of just give up in a way. Like we're just going to, this is what it is and we're just going to deal with it versus this, we're not going to be perfect, but we can still grow and learn and be better. How do we separate the growth from the guilt?

Ali Flynn (08:15.822):
Well, I always talk to moms about how we are on this journey evolving over and over and over again. We are not the same mom that we were when our child was born, when they were infants, toddlers, teens, or even young adults, right? And older adults. We have to change with them. We have to learn. We have to grow. And if we don't do that, we're going to get caught in this trap. And if you get caught in that trap, you do feel not good enough because you are also not evolving. But the concept of not feeling good enough, it's like such nonsense to me, right? Because we are good enough and we know we're good enough, but we are taking in all these negative messages and believing that we're not good enough. So it's really just stopping that path and believing and supporting ourselves through self-love and self-care to then model for our kids that they also are good enough, right? Not for them to feel that way, not for them to get caught in this vicious cycle. So I think there's so many layers and elements to this. We could probably talk for hours about it.
Right? And you see it all the time. And it's just really, it's something that I'm so passionate about because we have to change the narrative.

Dr. Cam (09:27.185):
I think it's the difference between being good enough and not, not being good enough and not knowing enough. We are good enough, but there's always more we can know. I mean, you and I do this day in and day out and I'm still reading books every day. I'm still taking classes. I'm ex, I'm interviewing experts like you. I still don't know everything. So there's no way for us, that doesn't mean I'm not good enough, it just means I've got lots more I can learn. There's nothing wrong with that.

Ali Flynn (10:05.982)
And I think also, we're always evolving, we're learning, right? We're growing, we're growing along with our kids. But we also have to recognize that we have to expand, right? We have to allow ourselves to recognize that we are good enough, and we are good enough for our family, right? So that's sort of also where my mindset shifted. I did this change and said to myself, rather than thinking I'm not good enough for the whole world, it doesn't matter about the whole world. This is my family of six, and I'm going to do for my family of six what I know they need from me. And I'm not going to worry about the neighbor next door. I'm going to care for my neighbor next door, and I will worry about them. But I'm not going to invest my time in over-analyzing what they are doing in comparison to what I'm doing, because I'm the only one who knows what my particular kids need. Focus on that, right? Do what is right for your family and ignore the chatter of what everyone else is doing.

Dr. Cam (11:06.179)
I think a lot of that chatter is chatter we make up too. The fear of what we think they may be thinking, and then we get stuck in that, and that kind of gets us down that trap. And I think the other thing to just consider is when we admit and take accountability that there's more we can learn, that doesn't say that what we have done in the past has been failure. We've done the best we could with everything we know, and that's okay. But we can always know more if we want to change the dynamic. That's all there is to it. That's not saying we failed. It's just saying we still have room to go. So now we're going to slowly but surely—because this is a difficult thing for us to do—let go of guilt because we were born and raised to embrace it. Let's be real. And we are passing that guilt burden onto our kids in many ways as well. But how do we now model taking care of ourselves? Because I think this is the other thing where we tend to sacrifice our own well-being for the well-being of our kids. And Ali, tell us why that does not work long-term.

Ali Flynn (12:26.99)
Yet this is something that it took me a long time to realize. And it took me a long time to recognize that I personally was doing this, right? I had this thought that being a good mom and being a good enough mom meant that I was completely 100% selfless. I was selfless. But that selflessness caught up to me, right? So here I was, a younger mom, giving, giving, giving, overly giving, but it turned into sort of self-sabotage. And then, as I'm giving, I'm becoming more hostile. I'm retreating. I'm getting upset about the littlest things. I don't feel enough, but I also don't feel fulfilled. And it's sort of this dynamic where I love being a mother, but I'm not feeling fulfilled at the same time. And why is that happening? It's this dichotomy that I have to think about. And I think I'm a very reflective person. So I could sit back and say, wait a second, this is not what being a mom is about. Being a mom does not mean completely getting lost in just my family and not focusing on myself at all. And being a mom doesn't mean being completely selfless because what am I modeling to my kids?